Narcan doesn’t save lives

[vinniedelpino]

That is the question:

Our evolution (biological speciation) allowed for a species with the capacity for advanced cognition (comparatively). Genetic disorders and ailments are allowed to persist because of our innovation.

I've always wrestled with that concept.

What's there to wrestle with?

We're devolving. Natural order would suggest that the strong survive and pass on their genes to future generations while the weak and maladapted die off. This concept is the backbone of evolution. Now the weak thrive on subsidies and are compensated for procreating.

This whole backwards-ass situation is fucked. The weak need to take their rightful place in the circle of life for the good of humanity as a whole... for the good of future generations.... for the greater good in the most general sense of the term.

Fuck Narcan. Its benefits are grossly overshadowed by the damage it causes.

 

[7.62willdo]

After watching the movie My Son Hunter he must have had a case of Narcan available at all times.

I’m assuming you need doctors orders to acquire Narcan?

I don’t know how it is where you live but in seattle they hand it out…

 

[AngryKoala]

Bullshit.
The whole "it's a disease" narrative is nothing more than denying responsibility.
Is there anyone that believes meth, heroin or fentynal are good for you, with no serious consequence?
Then don't do the shit.

Just because you can't comprehend the science behind it doesn't make it bullshit.

 

[AngryKoala]

What's there to wrestle with?

We're devolving. Natural order would suggest that the strong survive and pass on their genes to future generations while the weak and maladapted die off. This concept is the backbone of evolution. Now the weak thrive on subsidies and are compensated for procreating.

This whole backwards-ass situation is fucked. The weak need to take their rightful place in the circle of life for the good of humanity as a whole... for the good of future generations.... for the greater good in the most general sense of the term.

Fuck Narcan. Its benefits are grossly overshadowed by the damage it causes.

Because one of the very things that makes us humans is our intellectual capacity. The things we invent (medicine) to allow transmission of traits that do not confer fitness of individuals whom would not be able to procreate otherwise is a product of our evolution.

 

[Ruff 364]

Fuck it, this PD has fun with it....

 

[TurboTrout]

So the big pharma folks pushing opioids on one hand and Narcan with the other… use the slogan “Narcan Saves Lives.”

What utter bullshit. Narcan kills.

It does so in many ways… by prolonging addicts long enough that they can, well, do what addicts do.

— Narcan keeps junkies on the streets so they can Sell more drugs and hook other people to support their habits. Every junkie creates more junkies.

— Narcan Keeps junkies on the street where they turn to violent crime.

— Narcan Gives the impression that fentanyl and opioids are save and risk free, upping the demand and creating bigger markets for violent cartels who are murdering people in the thousands for control of the trade.

— Narcan lets junkies think they can “maintain” a lifestyle of addiction that looks normal… until they drive their car head on into an innocent driver, which has happened multiple times here in the last few years.

— Narcan puts first reponders at risk…

Narcan saves lives… not a chance. It is dramatically prolonging the opioid and fentanyl crisis by making them look safe and risk-free. And the longer it goes on the worse it gets.

Every Worthless pos “saved” by Narcan goes on to kill many more and addict many more… directly or indirectly.

Show me some junkie saved by Narcan who has gone on to win a Nobel Prize or invent a better lightbulb…. Or do anything useful.

Narcan has made everything worse… and made the pharma company selling it… billions. Solving a problem it helped create.

Ban Narcan and the drug epidemic, along with its related secondary effects, goes away in weeks.

Prove me wrong.

Sirhr

Same with saving heart attack victims who are over ideal body weight?

Or saving a car crash victim who had dent on their car because they never could drive worth a shit?

Not the best road to go down

 

[Maggot]

It's a complicated question... And I don't think there is a modern philosophy that has yet been created to address it. A new 'Enlightenment' that helps settle some of these questions. Instead, we allow hedonism and anarchy to rise while trying to sweep back the barbarians. @Maggot You have the philosophy degree here!


Cheers,

Sirhr

In my study of western analytic philosophy I found it advantageous to reduce arguments to the LCD/lowest common denominator. politicians started making cannabis and other drugs illegal...for profit. Cannabis was made illegal so Dupont could sell nylon rope to the military and Randy Hearst could sell wood pulp for newspaper. Millions have suffered because of their greed.

-So:

-Our constitution acknowledges our absolute right to 'life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness".

-When we enter into living in a society we willingly surrender some of those right...ie: You dont have the right to harm others...your right to swing your fish stops where my jaw begins.

-By my interpretation of the above, one has the right to do pretty much anything they want as long as that doesnt harm others. If I want to go into my living room and smoke some reefer, tout a line of blow, do a couple pain pills to help my aching back, or chug a couple IPAs , thats my right---

-On the other hand if I go out and rob a store, drive drunk, or do other stupid things that harm someone else, then I must be held accountable for that.

Simple.

 

[AngryKoala]

Same with saving heart attack victims who are over ideal body weight?

Or saving a car crash victim who had dent on their car because they never could drive worth a shit?

Not the best road to go down

Or smokers, tobacco chewers, disease from obesity, type 2 diabetics etc. all taxing our system.

 

[db2000]

So the big pharma folks pushing opioids on one hand and Narcan with the other… use the slogan “Narcan Saves Lives.”

What utter bullshit. Narcan kills.

It does so in many ways… by prolonging addicts long enough that they can, well, do what addicts do.

— Narcan keeps junkies on the streets so they can Sell more drugs and hook other people to support their habits. Every junkie creates more junkies.

— Narcan Keeps junkies on the street where they turn to violent crime.

— Narcan Gives the impression that fentanyl and opioids are save and risk free, upping the demand and creating bigger markets for violent cartels who are murdering people in the thousands for control of the trade.

— Narcan lets junkies think they can “maintain” a lifestyle of addiction that looks normal… until they drive their car head on into an innocent driver, which has happened multiple times here in the last few years.

— Narcan puts first reponders at risk…

Narcan saves lives… not a chance. It is dramatically prolonging the opioid and fentanyl crisis by making them look safe and risk-free. And the longer it goes on the worse it gets.

Every Worthless pos “saved” by Narcan goes on to kill many more and addict many more… directly or indirectly.

Show me some junkie saved by Narcan who has gone on to win a Nobel Prize or invent a better lightbulb…. Or do anything useful.

Narcan has made everything worse… and made the pharma company selling it… billions. Solving a problem it helped create.

Ban Narcan and the drug epidemic, along with its related secondary effects, goes away in weeks.

Prove me wrong.

Sirhr

It’s just enabling. That’s pretty pessimistic but kinda is what it is.
A lot of junkies frankly hope they just finally OD and put an end to their enslavement.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Not to mention much of the Fentanyl is coming from Chicoms... by way of Mexico. Or the Chicoms are making the precursor chemicals...

So big Pharma isn't all of it. We are having chemical warfare waged on us by our enemies.

Sort of payback for the British and their Opium wars...

The Chinese are making the whole thing, then shipping it out, and you don't do that in a Communist state that likes to shoot drug dealers in the head for show, without that being ordered by the Communist Party.

The Chinese learned over a century ago how effective getting a population hooked on drugs was for a foreign power.
Weaken your enemy and get rich in the process, what's not to love?

You'll notice all the things the left wing SJW Woke lobby here are doing are what the Chinese Communist Party just clamped down hard on domestically.

I'll bet a lot of folks would be rather surprised if it ever came to full light how much the Communists, the Russians, the Chinese and their ideological sympathizers and supporters, have funded and pushed most of the modern woke agenda and acceptance of harmful lifestyles.

 

[Maggot]

The Chinese are making the whole thing, then shipping it out, and you don't do that in a Communist state that likes to shoot drug dealers in the head for show, without that being ordered by the Communist Party.

The Chinese learned over a century ago how effective getting a population hooked on drugs was for a foreign power.
Weaken your enemy and get rich in the process, what's not to love?

You'll notice all the things the left wing SJW Woke lobby here are doing are what the Chinese Communist Party just clamped down hard on domestically.

I'll bet a lot of folks would be rather surprised if it ever came to full light how much the Communists, the Russians, the Chinese and their ideological sympathizers and supporters, have funded and pushed most of the modern woke agenda and acceptance of harmful lifestyles.

The Chicoms dont usually make the shit, they just sell all the raw chemicals to the Mexican Cartels who make it and ship it north. Thats part of the problem, when its mixed up in a clandestine lab you never know what youre getting, just like the LSD labs in the 60' and 70's. If you could go to Walgreen's and buy a proscribed # of mg's of this or that you'd at least have a pure, measured product.

 

[vinniedelpino]

Because one of the very things that makes us humans is our intellectual capacity. The things we invent (medicine) to allow transmission of traits that do not confer fitness of individuals whom would not be able to procreate otherwise is a product of our evolution.

Our intellectual capacity, as a whole, is declining. This is apparent both in standardized testing and at the checkout line at the grocery store.

Its part of human nature to act in our own best interest. Without government intervention, the population would never support the current social welfare burden.

Our current state of devolution isn’t the inevitable byproduct of evolution. It’s the product of manipulation by the ruling class.

 

[AngryKoala]

Our intellectual capacity, as a whole, is declining. This is apparent both in standardized testing and at the checkout line at the grocery store.

Its part of human nature to act in our own best interest. Without government intervention, the population would never support the current social welfare burden.

Our current state of devolution isn’t the inevitable byproduct of evolution. It’s the product of manipulation by the ruling class.

I would have to disagree to some extent but I'm also not going to discount the core of your argument as you make valid points.

We (globally) have more degreed individuals now than at any point in our history (fact check?). While a degree doesn't necessarily make an individual intelligent it does point to the capacity to learn which is one aspect of intelligence.

I can't define an individual or group based on a standardized test as there are many individuals who perform terribly on tests but they are intelligent (trades).

Access to Information (also misinformation) has never been as widely spread and easy to access at any point in our history. Information access leads to knowledge and a knowledgeable population would display intelligence to some degree.

I will say where I see the largest drop off is emotional intelligence (my observation). A destruction in emotional intelligence is directly linked to societal collapse. The inability to have discourse without unhinged, emotional and maniacal responses is not healthy. I would argue we are de-evolving emotionally/socially vs. Intellectually (classic definition).

 

[OkieMike]

What was the purpose of the $80 billion war on opiate bill passed for?
Opiate deaths have doubled
Big pharma got paid back the fines they had
Politicians and cronies got more taxpayer money.

Every time the government "declares war" on something, we end up with more of it than when they started... Poverty, drugs, terrorism, etc...

It's almost like they don't care and/or don't have a clue.

Mike

 

[FWoo45]

I carry Narcan in my vehicle kit. Not for the chance of needing it for a coding addict at a rest stop but for the chance a family/friend gets dosed from fentanyl on accident. This happens more often than you would think. Wasteoid opens his trunk and some fentanyl dust gets blown into someones face across the parking lot. This happened where I used to work and the result was 3 people went down and all needed Narcan. Whole parking lot was cordoned off, hazmat called in and dealt with it. No wastoids went down though.

Been thinking about getting some for this very reason. I’m not going out of my way to save some transient junky. I’m not getting close enough to them to tell if they’re sleeping or mid OD.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

First off, I've been saying it for years. The fact that it is a 'new topic' today is disheartening from the outset.

Secondly, the problem boils down to society, and the absolute removal of "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY".
Which is tantamount to "here, let me do your thinking for you...."

When we were children, we learned how to climb trees, ride bikes, play in fields, etc. In the DUE PROCESS thereof, we learned that while we can jump down from a tree's lower branches, if we did so from higher up or the top.... consequences. Pain, broken bones, etc. So now the 'village' just simply states 'don't climb trees'.

Are you seeing a correlation here? So YES, 'ban narcan'. ONLY for use on First Responders and such caregivers for unintended contact with said poisons. But anyone CHOOSING to take drugs laced with 'bad shit'... or anyone CHOOSING to take 'bad shit'...... Have A Nice Day.

It will be a SHORT amount of time where the streets, alleys, parks, sidewalks, and malls will be cleaned up because there won't be near-as-many sprawled out/dead on them. Others will start to see/realize that there are potential REPERCUSSIONS of and from their actions. If they CHOOSE to continue, they are also choosing to remove themselves from viability, civility, usefulness, and assistance.
I'm not going to do the thinking for them. But I'm going to think for myself, in what I want my efforts, my tax dollars, and my attention to be spent on. There are things in this world, and this life, that are FAR more important than a junkie, or some asshole (pick-a-title) that wants to get stoned.

Far too much time, energy, funds, efforts, and infrastructure are wasted IN THIS CONTINENT on 'junkies' and their multitudes of issues. And it affects almost everyone in one manner or another. First Responders everywhere are 'overworked' because of the multitudes of calls for assitance, theft, notifications, investigations, Emergency Room triage (etc)..... wherein if you simply STOP administering this stuff to those who CHOSE to do this.... it'd be better for everyone.

Yeah, I've been saying this for years..... and today it is getting talked about?

Sorry Sean... Didn't mean to steal your issue!

Maybe between us, we can get some traction! Or at least some SH debate. ;-)

Sorry Sean!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Every time the government "declares war" on something, we end up with more of it than when they started...

Mike

Except Japanese. There were definitely fewer Japanese.

Just 'sayin.

Sirhr

 

[LawnMM]

The German hacked Sihr's account! Now he's ranting under psuedonyms

 

[TurboTrout]

Or smokers, tobacco chewers, disease from obesity, type 2 diabetics etc. all taxing our system.

Folks who choose to have a kid knowing they have a bad genetic history

Any who makes under 100k

 

[vinniedelpino]

I would have to disagree to some extent but I'm also not going to discount the core of your argument as you make valid points.

We (globally) have more degreed individuals now than at any point in our history (fact check?). While a degree doesn't necessarily make an individual intelligent it does point to the capacity to learn which is one aspect of intelligence.

I can't define an individual or group based on a standardized test as there are many individuals who perform terribly on tests but they are intelligent (trades).

Access to Information (also misinformation) has never been as widely spread and easy to access at any point in our history. Information access leads to knowledge and a knowledgeable population would display intelligence to some degree.

I will say where I see the largest drop off is emotional intelligence (my observation). A destruction in emotional intelligence is directly linked to societal collapse. The inability to have discourse without unhinged, emotional and maniacal responses is not healthy. I would argue we are de-evolving emotionally/socially vs. Intellectually (classic definition).

While I agree with your premise that we’re becoming increasingly emotionally immature, there’s an undeniable drop in average intellectual capacity as well.

Degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. I say that as an employer and as an individual with my own collection of undergraduate and graduate degrees and letters after my name.

I’ve had job applicants and former coworkers that graduated from Ivy League schools and failed the licensure exams in their field of study multiple times. What does that tell you?

Knowledge equates to a collection of information. Intelligence involves the analysis and practical application of that information in order to solve problems, arrive at logical conclusions based on the data at hand, or otherwise create value. While access to knowledge is vast and unrestricted, intelligence is on the decline.

Right or wrong, there’s nothing anyone can on this forum can say or do to change my mind. We can agree to disagree.

 

[AngryKoala]

While I agree with your premise that we’re becoming increasingly emotionally immature, there’s an undeniable drop in average intellectual capacity as well.

Degrees aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. I say that as an employer and as an individual with my own collection of undergraduate and graduate degrees and letters after my name.

I’ve had job applicants and former coworkers that graduated from Ivy League schools and failed the licensure exams in their field of study multiple times. What does that tell you?

Knowledge equates to a collection of information. Intelligence involves the analysis and practical application of that information in order to solve problems, arrive at logical conclusions based on the data at hand, or otherwise create value. While access to knowledge is vast and unrestricted, intelligence is on the decline.

Right or wrong, there’s nothing anyone can on this forum can say or do to change my mind. We can agree to disagree.

I am not an employer but I do have to interview young chemists and I get a good mix of those that have good theoretical knowledge and others that have more practical (industrial applications) knowledge. Most have been intelligent.

Knowledge is not just the collection of information but the actual understanding as well which requires intelligence.

My reference to degrees was not to state their worth but rather to establish some knowledge was obtained during the completion of the program. It points more to the baseline of individuals as we are not speaking of those at the higher end of the intellect spectrum.

Maybe my view is skewed because of the individuals I'm use to working with but I'm not seeing the general decline. As you stated we can agree to disagree.

 

[Maggot]

Knowledge equates to a collection of information. Intelligence involves the analysis and practical application of that information in order to solve problems, arrive at logical conclusions based on the data at hand, or otherwise create value. While access to knowledge is vast and unrestricted, intelligence is on the decline.

Very well said. When I went back to college at 40, my first instructor so inspired me I wrote this::

"The mark of the exemplary instructor is not that he only impart facts, but that he instills within the student the desire and ability to synthesize those facts into knowledge, understanding and ultimately, wisdom."

 

[Maggot]

Maybe my view is skewed because of the individuals I'm use to working with but I'm not seeing the general decline.

I hadnt thought of it but that, It seems to happen over and over in nations history. Struggle, stability, prosperity, apathy, decline.

 

[fdkay]

I hadnt thought of it but that, It seems to happen over and over in nations history. Struggle, stability, prosperity, apathy, decline.

Also known as:
Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times

 

[Eostech]

What's there to wrestle with?

We're devolving. Natural order would suggest that the strong survive and pass on their genes to future generations while the weak and maladapted die off. This concept is the backbone of evolution. Now the weak thrive on subsidies and are compensated for procreating.

This whole backwards-ass situation is fucked. The weak need to take their rightful place in the circle of life for the good of humanity as a whole... for the good of future generations.... for the greater good in the most general sense of the term.

Fuck Narcan. Its benefits are grossly overshadowed by the damage it causes.

The whole idea of evolution does not facilitate devolving, this strong survive and pass on idea is BS, even the strongest person becomes lion shit
without troubling the lion too much.
It's also more complicated when you look at societal groups or species, as humans are pretty much rubbish in a physical contest against most creatures, they needed to rely on group knowledge and experience, hence generally keeping old folk around even when it seems to be a net loss of resources.

In such a group, the "strongest" is also the most disposable, ie young males. Too young to know much, too young to teach anything and their role in reproduction takes a minute at most.

So with evolution what we are looking at in modern context (to steal from wiki.)

Survival of the fittest"[1] is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms, the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

And.

In On the Origin of Species, he introduced the phrase in the fifth edition published in 1869,[4][5] intending it to mean "better designed for an immediate, local environment"

You can see where this is going I'm sure, create a niche and it gets exploited. It's easy to blame the exploiters but the root cause is the enablers.

 

[vinniedelpino]

The whole idea of evolution does not facilitate devolving, this strong survive and pass on idea is BS, even the strongest person becomes lion shit
without troubling the lion too much.
It's also more complicated when you look at societal groups or species, as humans are pretty much rubbish in a physical contest against most creatures, they needed to rely on group knowledge and experience, hence generally keeping old folk around even when it seems to be a net loss of resources.

In such a group, the "strongest" is also the most disposable, ie young males. Too young to know much, too young to teach anything and their role in reproduction takes a minute at most.

So with evolution what we are looking at in modern context (to steal from wiki.)

Survival of the fittest"[1] is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms, the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

And.

In On the Origin of Species, he introduced the phrase in the fifth edition published in 1869,[4][5] intending it to mean "better designed for an immediate, local environment"

You can see where this is going I'm sure, create a niche and it gets exploited. It's easy to blame the exploiters but the root cause is the enablers.

Seriously?

Definition of strong​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1: having or marked by great physical power
2: having moral or intellectual power

Why argue over semantics? Strong can mean intellectual strength. It can mean a strong immune system in during an epidemic. It can mean strong willed. I thought it was obvious I wasn't talking about physical strength....

 

[Eostech]

Seriously?

Definition of strong​

(Entry 1 of 2)
1: having or marked by great physical power
2: having moral or intellectual power

Why argue over semantics? Strong can mean intellectual strength. It can mean a strong immune system in during an epidemic. It can mean strong willed. I thought it was obvious I wasn't talking about physical strength....

Yes and the only metric evolution as a theory cares about is reproduction so any definition of strong still misses the point, though I understand what you mean better now.
Society is not devolving, it's evolving into something disgusting because bad behaviour is rewarded.

 

[EddieNFL]

I work in addiction treatment. Narcan can and does save lives but what is being explained here is that secondary results can mean a worse result for society as a whole. Narcan does seem to give addicts a sense of a safety net so they have less motivation to get clean. Lately, many have been telling me that their decision to seek treatment and remain clean is because someone close died from Fentanyl. Some didn’t know Fentanyl was in their Heroine/X/Oxy and for some it is actually their DOC.

One thing for certain, the amount of money spent on the “war on drugs” has been wholly ineffective. I could go on about the wasted time and taxpayer money but I won’t. It’s mind boggling.

What's your opinion on methadone clinics?

 

[NoDopes]

Texas program that gives out lifesaving drugs to combat opioid overdoses has been out of money for months

The state’s federally funded “More Narcan Please” program ran out of money in January, in part due to high demand. Advocates say Texas should invest more in the harm reduction effort.

www.texastribune.org

 

[sirhrmechanic]

As they “give away” tons of Narcan in places like Texas(see above) is it saving lives or encouraging bigger doses, brinksmanship and addict behavior that is resulting in more deaths… that’s the simple question… not about opioids. But about the cure.

NoDopes post above reminded me of this movie from the late ‘80s or so. And I seem to recall it was either based on or spawned a “flatliners” culture of people who were trying to get the “rush” of cheating death like in the movie. It killed people.

Flatliners - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The same thing is going on in the addict community at a certain level. Stoked with unlimited free Narcan, the choice to play brinksmanship games is getting made by some… adrenaline is a drug, too! Adrenaline, opioids and Narcan make a potent mixture!

Sirhr

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

This is a very interesting topic, but as usual the harder choices are concerning those that aren't just junkies, just like issues related to obesity for the ones who aren't just morbidly obese, ect. I supposes narcan could be used in a way that allowed for protecting non drug users , or rescuing a dumb teenager without handing the stuff out like candy right?

I view everything through through the lense of what my boys may do one day, because I'm a 40 year old with 2 small boys. I made lots of mistakes in life at a very very young age because I had no supervision, yet with God's grace and a grandmother who prayed for me nightly, I survived it and went on to do very well and have a wonderful family and be a contributing member of my Church as well as do a good bit for many others.

I never had any OD episodes or anything but I made lots of big mistakes when I was young, I'd hate to think that if one of my boys made a similar mistake, they'd pay with their life. I'm sure there are lots of parents who are very grateful their children didn't as well.

Seems to me that we could simply do better at managing how we use our technology and keep in mind the detrimental effects as well as the beneficial ones. I will say that we have completely lost the idea of tough love in society and it shows!

 

[AngryKoala]

Yes and the only metric evolution as a theory cares about is reproduction so any definition of strong still misses the point, though I understand what you mean better now.
Society is not devolving, it's evolving into something disgusting because bad behaviour is rewarded.

We are not using strict definitions in this banter. You are correct in your assessment but we are commenting on societal "evolution."

 

[Steel+Killer]

IMO anybody should be able to do what they want to themselves as long as they aren't on any kind of public assistance and that includes any and all family members living in public housing. If you work and can afford it go for it.......and no I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of indirect cost and what ifs.....because you could apply that shit to just about every aspect of life of things people want vs what they need.

 

[TurboTrout]

Drug wise, I only knew one person who actually was a addict, other friends who would smoke a little weed on vacation or whatever but lived successful lives, so I don’t count them

The one friend who was a addict, at least was a addict before we met, my understanding is this friend had a scare and cleaned up, aside from not even drinking anymore one would never know the person had that issue


Sanctimonious people are amusing and under a little research tend not to have their house or head quite right

In my industry there are people who are older, been in it a while, but if you ask they never made a mistake, busted a ride, broke a reg, and way back when soloed on like their second flight….. They tend to be the people who scare the shit out of you in the air, I avoid them

Shit happens in life, drugs have never interested me in the first place, but I’ve done plenty of other dumb shit over the years, as we all have, there by the grace of god go you, so have a little sympathy in these types of matters is my vote

 

[TurboTrout]

IMO anybody should be able to do what they want to themselves as long as they aren't on any kind of public assistance and that includes any and all family members living in public housing. If you work and can afford it go for it.......and no I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of indirect cost and what ifs.....because you could apply that shit to just about every aspect of life of things people want vs what they need.

Who’s more likely to self medicate their issues

The ones with big issues

Or little issues

One of the best ways to end drug issues is to one remove the forbidden fruit puritanical BS and make it like booze, two remove despair, which often can be done by less tax, having kids spend more time outdoors, good diet and plenty of opportunities, less gov in peoples lives often fixes about half of that

 

[357Max]

One seizure in AZ enough to kill 115,000,000 people.

Shit is cumming in disguised as PEZ, Flintstones vitamins, Sidewalk Chalk etc.

Fiscal 2022 enough Fentanyl seized at the boarder to kill 4,581,000,000 That's not an error 4.5 Billion fatal doses & that's just what was seized.

With the Boarder far more porous under the imbecile in the high castle. There's got to be way more getting past now vs prior to 2020.

@sirhrmechanic - I know addicts with long term recovery that have gone on to get PHD's, several. Also Lawyers, business owners etc.

Actually I'm married to one. She had 5 years in recovery when we got married. She first became an RN, then BSN, MSN, & now PHD. Over 20 fantastic years of marriage. She's helped many & continues to do so.

Another friend & PHD in Psychiatry, a Professor in Chicago has been on CNN several times advocating against Methadone/Soboxone.

Teens are dying in my area from smoking pot that was laced with Fentanyl. If I'm at a concert and I see someone nod out, damn straight I will hit them with Narcan.

What are you more likely to need in the course of the next 5 - 10 years, a tourniquet or a dose of Narcan? Honestly I think in the current climate I'm far more likely to use Narcan than CPR. It's been 10 years since I needed to used CPR.

Vivatrol is different - Unlike replacements such as Methadone that do get you high & are just as addictive as Heroin. Vivatrol simply blocks the receptors & thus prevents an addict from getting high if they use opiates. Removes the incentive, non addictive, time release so lasts 30 days. It's not a stand alone solution, but it should be an integral part of one that does not include handing the addict more/different drugs.

Here is a hypothetical to ponder. If every arrest for possession, OD response, etc led to court mandated detox followed by Vivatrol injections for 1-2 years it would make a huge dent in this problem. It would however, also make a huge dent in a lot of wallets. We've seen the lengths they will go to re: the covid vax. If they didn't stand to profit & actually gave a shit they'd close the fucking boarder & promote abstinence for addicts. Instead they push drug replacement "therapy" via Methadone, Soboxone, Psychotropics, Anti Depressants etc, thus perpetuating and enabling addiction. They actually now put inmates that aren't opiate abusers on Methadone/Soboxone. They come out addicts WTF. About 90% of the mass shooters going back to & including Columbine were on prescription Psychotropics. Adding that to inmates and then early releasing them is lunacy! It's like a chemically induced spiritual & mental Lobotomy. People on that shit are more suggestible & act on more base behavior patterns like we see in the Antifa/BLM riots. I'd like to no what percentage of those aholes were medicated, but we'll never know cause they didn't even bother arresting them. Of course they wouldn't want any light shed on this little secret. To Cynical? Maybe so, but they give us reason to be.

Wife and I tried helping a young lady (new mother) into treatment about a year ago. I called no less than a dozen rehabs. Every single one of them, if they accept a dime from State or Fed gov. pushes drug replacement therapy. Told me they had to. Drug rehab's that hand out drugs, not even optional, mandatory. Think about that. The message sent to the addict is, sure drugs are the solution, you've just been doing the wrong one's, what you really need is this one from Pfizer, Merk etc etc. They profited by heavily contributing to the wide spread opiate epidemic, and now they're profiting from the treatment. The profits from the treatment end are baked in and mandatory due to strings that come attached to money for treatment. Good job lobbyist's Fuckers!!!

If you know anyone that needs treatment make sure it's private (if you can afford it). If they take insurance they mandate drug treatment for drug treatment! Does that sound crazy to anyone else or am I on an Island here?

Our tax dollars are being used to create and perpetuate addiction while lining the pockets of big Pharma & politicians war chests. What we need is a bureaucratic purge top to bottom.

Here is another clue. Alkermes Headquartered in Ireland produces the brand name of the injectable version of naltrexone known as Vivatrol.
Not big pharma so yeah most likely suppressed by big Pharma lobbyists.

Seriously read Dreamland if you want to get more informed. If you do be mindful that, since it was written big Pharma has shifted their focus to profiting from the treatment end of addiction, just as fucking evil if not more so IMO.

35 years ago recovery from addiction meant Freedom from addiction. Now recovery from addiction includes perpetual addiction. That's not evolution, it's Devilution (not a misspell, pun intended).

 

[SBRSarge]

I see both sides of the argument and both have good points. I can give personally experienced examples of those saved who never did it again, and those saved who OD’d within a week.

But in the end, I remember a woman, dead, lying in her bathroom with a needle in her arm. And me holding her hysterical, sobbing 15 year old daughter who was begging and pleading with me to bring her mommy back. To the day I die, I’ll wish to God that I had narcan that day.

 

[TurboTrout]

I see both sides of the argument and both have good points. I can give personally experienced examples of those saved who never did it again, and those saved who OD’d within a week.

But in the end, I remember a woman, dead, lying in her bathroom with a needle in her arm. And me holding her hysterical, sobbing 15 year old daughter who was begging and pleading with me to bring her mommy back. To the day I die, I’ll wish to God that I had narcan that day.

Indeed

And the flip side too, it’s often the super straight edge parents who preach all that shit, don’t let their kids have any freedom, no computer in their room, no scary movies, etc, who often see their kids (naturally) rebel, if those parents saw their one precious daughter in the bathroom with that needle in her arm after a “we’ll let’s just party one night, mom and dad are assholes”, parents called 911 and got someone just like them on the other line “oh she’s a junky, not sending anyone” their tune would change right quick

 

[EddieNFL]

Our intellectual capacity, as a whole, is declining. This is apparent both in standardized testing and at the checkout line at the grocery store.

All you need do is look at the magazine display.

 

[Lawless]

What's your opinion on methadone clinics?

Methadone keeps people who really want to get clean from going into deep depression and relapsing. Opioids stop your natural production of some mood regulators so when a person quits H cold turkey, it may take months before things like serotonin make a comeback. This can lead to a more ready relapse or suicide. It has its place if administered properly by a physician.

It also is extremely abused.

 

[Lawless]

I wanted to also chime in that now, many don’t know that what they’re using contains or is in entirety Fentanyl. Especially H, which has all but disappeared. What is being sold as H now is mostly just F cut with something. The problem is that the “scientist“ who mixes it up could be off or perhaps didn’t mix it well.

F is so crazy potent that errors like that kill people.

Pot is being treated with F and some dude buying some smoke could end up an addict or dead.

Fentanyl has changed the game entirely.

On top of that, meth is different this year. It is being made now almost like what was called crank in the 90s and can cause permanent brain damage in just a few uses. It causes more extreme paranoia and aggression as well, leading to other risks to the public and the addict.



It’s easy to laugh at the junkie/crackhead/methbilly but the truth is that those drugs ruin entire families and cause tragedy at every turn. I’m not a bleeding heart about it, I believe in personal responsibility. But I don’t think its a joke either.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Been around long enough to know some heroin addicts some recovered and some died. My sister's sister in-law was an addict and got the point where my sister banned her from the house because she was stealing from her. She finally got clean but destroyed her body in the process. The meth and fentanyl around today is lethal and even if you get clean your body will be forever damaged. My daughter is a prosecutor and handles crimes against children and human trafficking. Nearly every one of her cases involves meth use on the part of the defendant. Another thing pot is not harmless as a lot of people would like you to think. Adolescent use is associated with mental health issues and saw first hand what is has done to a family member. Think about it, if you wanted to control the population just keep them stoned since they are more passive and less likely to resist.

 

[EddieNFL]

Methadone keeps people who really want to get clean from going into deep depression and relapsing. Opioids stop your natural production of some mood regulators so when a person quits H cold turkey, it may take months before things like serotonin make a comeback. This can lead to a more ready relapse or suicide. It has its place if administered properly by a physician.

It also is extremely abused.

Your last sentence sums up my limited knowledge. I've talked with a number of addicts that were methadone clinic patients and to a man/woman said they took that route to get the legal fix. They wanted to get clean, but that was a secondary priority.

Also, I understand some clinics don't attempt to wean you off unless you specifically ask.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Been around long enough to know some heroin addicts some recovered and some died. My sister's sister in-law was an addict and got the point where my sister banned her from the house because she was stealing from her. She finally got clean but destroyed her body in the process. The meth and fentanyl around today is lethal and even if you get clean your body will be forever damaged. My daughter is a prosecutor and handles crimes against children and human trafficking. Nearly every one of her cases involves meth use on the part of the defendant. Another thing pot is not harmless as a lot of people would like you to think. Adolescent use is associated with mental health issues and saw first hand what is has done to a family member. Think about it, if you wanted to control the population just keep them stoned since they are more passive and less likely to resist.

Brave new World… Soma… right out of the dystopian playbook….

 

[Romeo458]

We got a call to narcan a patient who used too much CBD oil and thought they were gonna die. As a former EMT in BFE I agree, it's mostly an enabler for continued customer base. In my 5 years I've only heard of its use on junkies, never a kid who accidentally got in the medicine cabinet or accidentally took some ha-ron.

When I was doing clinicals in the city during my EMT class the guy I worked with had a similar opinion. Having repeat customers for the stuff will do that I guess.

 

[fdkay]

We got a call to narcan a patient who used too much CBD oil and thought they were gonna die. As a former EMT in BFE I agree, it's mostly an enabler for continued customer base. In my 5 years I've only heard of its use on junkies, never a kid who accidentally got in the medicine cabinet or accidentally took some ha-ron.

When I was doing clinicals in the city during my EMT class the guy I worked with had a similar opinion. Having repeat customers for the stuff will do that I guess.

Narcan only works for opiates.

 

[Romeo458]

We didn't know that it was CBD till we arrived, dispatch said possible OD on a pain killer. Dispatch always gets the best information

Narcan only works for opiates.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Put all confiscated drugs on street corners for free. Let the problem take care of itself.

 

[The D]

What was the purpose of the $80 billion war on opiate bill passed for?
Opiate deaths have doubled
Big pharma got paid back the fines they had
Politicians and cronies got more taxpayer money.

Every time you see a war on something-or-other, all you have to do is substitute “of” in place of “on”. That’s what it will be guaranteed to turn into

 

[long range sponge]

The initial decision is but once dependence is experienced then it is now a disease and should be treated as such.

As someone who has struggled with being overweight/over-eating I understand that addiction is tough. It's the only "disease" that can be fought and won by making better choices. My wife's cancer couldn't be willed away by avoiding her cancer dealer. My son's seizures aren't a product of overindulgence. I understand the "condition" but calling it a disease drives me up a fucking wall. Then again, I'm just a lowly street medic (mediocre at that) and not a psychiatrist or behavior specialist.