Natural Point of aim question

[wigwamitus]

I've watched all of the "Day One" video 3 times and the "Natural Point of Aim" and "Trigger Control" sections several more times.

I have an issue/question.

I shoot mostly on my land which is pastures, creeks, hills and trees. I am usually shooting downhill and usually shooting in, through or over grass that requires me to "elevate" myself a bit. I typically have to shoot with 9 inches or 13 inches on the bipod. I can almost never shoot with 6 inches on the bipod. I got 3 inch "extenders" for my atlas bipod, to convert it from 6-9 inch to 9-13 inch. I've been calling this elevated position "elevated prone bipod". I've been using my elbows as kind of a "rear bipod". I use a rolled up blanket (which I can bungie chord to my pack when on foot) to support my chest. So in doing the "natural point of aim" test, I consistently see that the point of aim returns higher after closing eyes for two breathing cycles when in this position.

I've also been practicing shooting with sitting bipod. For that I set my 13-27 inch harris bipod to 21.5 inches. I haven't tried the "natural point of aim" test with that position yet. Right now I'm shooting from that position with iron sites, where prone shooting with with leupold 3.5-10x TMR scope in 3.5x magnification.

So, problem is how to achieve "perfect" natural point of aim from positions other than "proper prone bipod"? I'm guessing the answer will be "do the best you can with what you have available" or something in that ball park, but I thought I'd ask, in case I'm missing something (which is most probable) .

Should I give up on my "elevated prone" position? If I do, then I will mostly be shooting sitting with some kneeling and standing. But kneeling and standing would be indicated sometimes regardless. The only change might be giving up the elevated prone to go to sitting as a replacement for the elevated prone.

Thanks!

 

[shovelstrokeed]

This is only a quick suggestion on my part as I'm still trying to get a solid and natural point of aim of a bench. Two bad knees and a torn rotator cuff pretty much mean no prone for me. I can get down but I need an engine hoist and 2 strong guys to get me back up.

I would guess that your blanket roll is compressing and continuing to compress with each breathing cycle. Get a chunk of 4" PVC (use drain pipe not pressure, its lighter) and roll your blanket around that. Probably add only about 2 or 3 lbs to your total load and you can still sling via a rope through it and some small stuff to keep it rolled.

Not a bad place to stash a sammich or two either.

Further edit, cut a V in one end and you got a decent shooting rest for kneeling or sitting depending on length of PVC.

 

[Jaeger308]

Fundamental rule of positional shooting the higher your head gets from the ground the less stable you become. I think I first heard that from Jacob B. from Rifles Only, and a good thing to understand. You are propping yourself up with your elbows, this will create muscle tension in your forearms and shoulders, not a good thing to do. As far as support goes understand there are two types, hard support and soft support, without typing a whole book here, hard support creates stability soft support dampens vibrations and can be manipulated by squeezing it. If you need to get over grass I would go to a sitting position using a front support bi-pod or tripod, then place a ruck sack in your lap, partially full, hug that and use it as support for your elbows and rear of the rifle. Kind of like a large rear support bag but in your lap.
<O</O
Using a blanket in your chest you are losing NPA vertically because you cannot manipulate or squeeze the blanket, you are just pressing down on it and it changes also the amount of air in your lungs will also affect this. <O</O

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Natural Point Of Aim is where the rifle naturally wants to point when you shoulder it. You adjust NPA by moving the entire body to get the desired sight picture. Doing this, you will be muscularly relaxed, allowing bone/artificial support instead of muscle to maintain a steady position, any position. But, Here's what most folks do: as they shoulder the rifle they steer it to the target with muscle. Now on target they begin to think about NPA because they know that they are not muscularly relaxed and that they are indeed using muscle to support the position, which is causing wobble. Thing is , it is hard to get NPA from a position already built from muscle, as it requires abandonment of the sight picture, which the brain does not want you to do. Nevertheless, getting off target is what needs to be done if you are in this predicament, and this is as hard to do as it is unnecessary to do if you had gone about building the position without steering to the target in the first place.

One more thing, a bipod dulls the sense for when NPA has been properly adjusted or even if a NPA exists upon shouldering the rifle. A novice shooter should therefore first learn how to build the position with bone alone. With bone alone recognition for NPA and for proper adjustment of it will be easily sensed; thereafter allowing recognition for NPA with any combination of bone/artificial support.

Once again you don't go about trying to get a NPA. Just shoulder the rifle allowing it to point where ever is natural and you will have it.

 

[wigwamitus]

ok thanks guys,

Sounds like I will have to mostly give up shooting prone, given the realities of my terrain. And I'll cancel that 9 inch to 13 inch Harris I had in my Midway cart as it would only be useful for this "high prone" position I'd been trying to use. So 6 inch to 9 inch for prone and 13 to to 27 inch for sitting kneeing (I already have those) and then tripod for standing, already have that.
I start focusing more on shooting from sitting bipod, in recent shooting I've been doing about as well with my 7.62, sitting bipod with iron sites as I have with .22LR, prone bipod with 3.5x magnified scope. And earlier this year I was able to get decent groups at 200yds with .22LR, NVD standing at night on a very dark night (no IR). So non-prone positions are possible for me. I just never realized I wold have to mostly not shoot prone!

 

[Jaeger308]

For artifical front support like what you are after I really like a soild tripod with a Hog saddle mount. Work the a ruck in your lap it will be a very stable position...

 

[timelinex]

Natural Point Of Aim is where the rifle naturally wants to point when you shoulder it. You adjust NPA by moving the entire body to get the desired sight picture. Doing this, you will be muscularly relaxed, allowing bone/artificial support instead of muscle to maintain a steady position, any position. But, Here's what most folks do: as they shoulder the rifle they steer it to the target with muscle. Now on target they begin to think about NPA because they know that they are not muscularly relaxed and that they are indeed using muscle to support the position, which is causing wobble. Thing is , it is hard to get NPA from a position already built from muscle, as it requires abandonment of the sight picture, which the brain does not want you to do. Nevertheless, getting off target is what needs to be done if you are in this predicament, and this is as hard to do as it is unnecessary to do if you had gone about building the position without steering to the target in the first place.

One more thing, a bipod dulls the sense for when NPA has been properly adjusted or even if a NPA exists upon shouldering the rifle. A novice shooter should therefore first learn how to build the position with bone alone. With bone alone recognition for NPA and for proper adjustment of it will be easily sensed; thereafter allowing recognition for NPA with any combination of bone/artificial support.

Once again you don't go about trying to get a NPA. Just shoulder the rifle allowing it to point where ever is natural and you will have it.

Sterling has a very good point here..

The only thing I would like to add is something I do. If I notice that I'm muscling the rifle into place or that I'm on target but it doesn't feel like it's the npa. I just lift my chest off the ground(with rifle still against it and head still in place on rifle) and put it back down. This puts me right back to where npa is and I work from there to move my body.

 

[79jeepcj5]

When my range (200 yards) gets to the point where I can't see the target board from prone, I mow. The area you shoot sounds exactly like mine. I shoot at a slight incline in my pasture. I'm hoping to get time to extend my range to about 400 yards but it'll require cutting quite a few trees. I can get to 600 on the other side of the farm but I'd be shooting towards a road.

 

[alpine44]

I've watched all of the "Day One" video 3 times and the "Natural Point of Aim" and "Trigger Control" sections several more times.

I have an issue/question.

I shoot mostly on my land which is pastures, creeks, hills and trees. I am usually shooting downhill and usually shooting in, through or over grass that requires me to "elevate" myself a bit. I typically have to shoot with 9 inches or 13 inches on the bipod. I can almost never shoot with 6 inches on the bipod. I got 3 inch "extenders" for my atlas bipod, to convert it from 6-9 inch to 9-13 inch. I've been calling this elevated position "elevated prone bipod". I've been using my elbows as kind of a "rear bipod". I use a rolled up blanket (which I can bungie chord to my pack when on foot) to support my chest. So in doing the "natural point of aim" test, I consistently see that the point of aim returns higher after closing eyes for two breathing cycles when in this position.

I've also been practicing shooting with sitting bipod. For that I set my 13-27 inch harris bipod to 21.5 inches. I haven't tried the "natural point of aim" test with that position yet. Right now I'm shooting from that position with iron sites, where prone shooting with with leupold 3.5-10x TMR scope in 3.5x magnification.

So, problem is how to achieve "perfect" natural point of aim from positions other than "proper prone bipod"? I'm guessing the answer will be "do the best you can with what you have available" or something in that ball park, but I thought I'd ask, in case I'm missing something (which is most probable) .

Should I give up on my "elevated prone" position? If I do, then I will mostly be shooting sitting with some kneeling and standing. But kneeling and standing would be indicated sometimes regardless. The only change might be giving up the elevated prone to go to sitting as a replacement for the elevated prone.

Thanks!

When the obsession about bipods, bags and related techniques drives me nuts at the range, I staple 6" paper plates to the 100 yard board and shoot them like I would "run into a deer". Standing, mounting the rifle smoothly like a shotgun on the beep, aligning the reticle smoothly as the target becomes visible, resting for a few tens of seconds on the plate and cleanly squeezing the shot off. That feels pretty "natural" but causes some jaw drops in the tacticool crowd.

Seriously, being concerned about NPA is great when position and time constraints allow it. If you are laying on the mat behind a bipod you should be square and relaxed.

However, many times we have to work with what we got. In these cases, drawing small circles on the target with the reticle (I call it "stirring") while squeezing of the shot is better than desperately trying to force a static sight alignment. As you become more aware of the trigger, you will hold the pressure when you are "off" the target and increase the pressure when "On". With the open sights, low magnification settings, and conditions you mentioned, I would focus on this technique.

NPA is definitely crucial when the only movement of the reticle is caused by your breathing and heartbeat.

 

[wigwamitus]

Thanks for the good suggestions!

I'll definitely try the "pack in the lap" idea for the sitting position.

Don't want to mow. Actually I shoot from as many different firing points as possible. My targets are all in one area (until I build a second berm) but I want to shoot from rough ground sometimes, wood lines sometimes, through the grass and over the brush etc.

Will try the standing unsupported thing but that is tough for me, so not to that level yet.

I use something like a "reticle stirring" thing on really dark nights when shooting with the NVD (IR off). I can't aim straight at the target because I would block the aimming point, so I aim low and find the aiming point and find the reticle and then move the reticle up and over until it is at the aiming point and then fire. But haven't used it from a standing unsupported position yet.

Not sure what a "hog saddle" is, but my tripod has a "cradle". So far I've only used the tripod from standing have been using the 13-27 inch bipod for sitting and kneeing.

Thanks again for the ideas.

BTW, went out last night and fired a little from 109yds with 7.62 with iron sights and tac light, bipod sitting and .22LR 3.5x magnification with NVD and 9 inch bipod prone. Prior to each shoot I did the "close eyes and go through two breathing cycles" and I didn't have any "NPA" issues. When I reported I did above, I had the same issue twice in a row, so I thought reported it. For a while, I will keep doing the "gross test". I think it helps to be aware of issues and if nothing else this should help be do a better job of "getting straight behind the rifle" and getting "less muscle in my position".

 

[projectpat0]

To the OP thanks for posting this. I have the same issues where I shoot due to the topography. Always shooting on at least a 4 percent grade. Flat land is hard to come by.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

When the obsession about bipods, bags and related techniques drives me nuts at the range, I staple 6" paper plates to the 100 yard board and shoot them like I would "run into a deer". Standing, mounting the rifle smoothly like a shotgun on the beep, aligning the reticle smoothly as the target becomes visible, resting for a few tens of seconds on the plate and cleanly squeezing the shot off. That feels pretty "natural" but causes some jaw drops in the tacticool crowd.

Seriously, being concerned about NPA is great when position and time constraints allow it. If you are laying on the mat behind a bipod you should be square and relaxed.

However, many times we have to work with what we got. In these cases, drawing small circles on the target with the reticle (I call it "stirring") while squeezing of the shot is better than desperately trying to force a static sight alignment. As you become more aware of the trigger, you will hold the pressure when you are "off" the target and increase the pressure when "On". With the open sights, low magnification settings, and conditions you mentioned, I would focus on this technique.

NPA is definitely crucial when the only movement of the reticle is caused by your breathing and heartbeat.

Movement is caused by muscle. Therefore, the idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position through the use of bone/artificial support. If the shooter has good support then the position will be muscularly relaxed and with less muscle there will be less movement. Now, here's the rub, when the position has been built properly it is likely not going to be on the target, so the NPA must be adjusted. If not adjusted then the steering of the sight to target will introduce muscle even though bone/artificial support are present,

For a standing position use of an interrupted trigger pull, as well as the finessing of NPA are no doubt important; but, snap shooting may not allow for a proper position period. Still, sight alignment and SMOOTH trigger control are easily and good results at short distance are possible.

 

[wigwamitus]

BTW, I've modifed my shooting practice routine. I'm now shooting 10 round groups and rechecking NAP prior to each 3 round subgroup. If nothing else, this helps me think about getting into a better position before I even look through the scope. Better being, rifle pointed at the target, body pointed at the target etc. I setup last night with .22LR and when I got down and turned on the tac light and looked through the scope (from 109yds) I could already see the target. The "norm" has been that I have to scan for the target for several seconds.

 

[M40_A1]

You should check your NPA for each shot.

 

[ShhDontMove]

There are some great shooting positions that will get you almost if not as steady as prone. Some of the Marine Corps shooting manuals go into pretty great detail about sitting shooting positions which you could translate over to precision shooting. On top of that if you add in some shooting sticks and bypass your bipod altogether you'll get even better results in a sitting position. Throw in the right sling and you can really torque down your rifle. If you google USMC Shooting techniques or something to that effect I'm sure you'll find quite a few manuals on it. I found reference to some on ARFCOM.

 

[wigwamitus]

Still shooting 10 round groups. Am shooting .22LR (AM22) and 7.62 (168 AMAX) from 100yds (109yds actual). The .22LR has atlas bipod at 9 inches with LP 3.5-10x TMR at 3.5x. The 7.62 has harris 13-27 inch bipod at 21.5 inches. At night the .22LR uses the NVD and the 7.62 uses the 2000L tac light. Results are about the same in terms of group size at 5 MPH or less. At above 5 MPH the .22LR starts to spread laterally. But I didn't think I could be as consistent from sitting with iron sights as I could with bipod a scope, but then this is only 109yds and I'd never tried it before. I'm doing the NAP gross test before each 3 round sub group.
The downside to the tac light, is that I have to wait for the smoke to blow away after each round. Depending on the wind this can be any where from 0 to 3 seconds. For the NVD, there is no delay in reacquiring the target.
I just saw the comment about checking NAP prior to each round, ok, I'll try it! And BTW, I'm using the "count to 20" method rather than counting my breathing cycles.

I'm surprised a shooting stick (monopod) would be more stable than a bipod, will have to noodle on why that would be true.

Still need to make a larger rear bag to try with sitting position.

 

[ShhDontMove]

I'm surprised a shooting stick (monopod) would be more stable than a bipod, will have to noodle on why that would be true.

If you're referring to the post I made, I am saying that shooting sticks would be more accurate than not using a bipod at all IN a sitting position. If you have a bipod that can stretch from a sitting position and touch the ground, then all the more power to you. Most people don't run those kinds of bipods, therefore shooting sticks act as a bipod in sitting and standing positions. They even have shooting sticks that can form into a tripod. I wouldn't recommend using a single shooting stick though as you stated a monopod. It can be done but the more sticks you got, the better the stability. This all is pertaining to shooting in a sitting position, because personally I wouldn't want to shoot to such a point that I'm elevated off the ground and need something to support myself off the ground. Unless I'm in a combat zone, I'm going to go ahead and get into a better position that will improve my accuracy.

With all that said, if you arent shooting to extreme distances and time is short, you can quickly get into a steady sitting position without a bipod or shooting sticks, and just use your skeletal system to steady the rifle. Just remember not to place your elbows directly onto your knees.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ah, gotcha on the "pods".

For prone I have 1 each Atlas and Harris 6-9 inch bipods (and three inch extenders for Atlas to allow it to become a 9-12). For sitting or kneeing I have a Harris 13-27 and it seems to work fine for either and a tripod that I've only used for standing so far.

 

[tman300wm]

I love to shoot prone, but here in south Texas it's simply not something you're going to get the opportunity to do with any frequency. The grass is simply too high when you're hunting in the field. However, there are a couple of methods I have found that work well in these circumstances. I like shooting off of a ruck sack. Mine is fiarly tall and has a good stiff back in it so I sit on my backside, wrap the shoulder straps around my legs, and use my knees as rear support for the rifle and my elbows. The bipod or forearm sits on the top of my pack. I use a sling to add support. This puts me up at least as high as a seated position for shooting. I'm also a big fan of shooting from the kneeling position and utilizing a quality (proper) rifle sling. Jacob Bynum down at Rifles Only has an excellent series of videos where he talks about natural point of aim, using a rifle sling, and positional shooting. I can't recommend him (Jacob) and his methodologies enough. There are also shooting sticks, which will help you get your barrel and line of sight up above the grass. Private instruction is also another consideration. I know it helped me a ton, and I try to take a class as frequently as I can afford.

All in all, it's a matter of getting out with your rifle and practicing proper technique (but first you need to learn proper technique). I'd also recommend finding another shooter in your area to help critique your position, breathing, trigger control, and natural point of aim. Trying to self diagnose problems can be difficult, another discerning eye can be a great help.

Good luck,

Tman

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Learn how to build steady standing, prone, setting, and kneeling positions with bone alone and then the same adding hasty sling. From there on you will be able to get a stable position when other artificial supports are not sufficient. You need to learn bone alone also to understand when you have properly integrated artificial support to bone to maximize muscular relaxation. In addition, having muscular relaxation permits the use of maximum bone support to create a minimum arc of movement and consistency in the resistance of recoil. One more thing, an earlier poster suggested you cannot build a steady prone position with elbows, the fact is when the non firing elbow is placed as close to directly under the forend as possible and the firing elbow is allowed to fall where natural, a very muscularly relaxed bone only condition can be realized, where bone, not muscle is supporting the position. At any rate, right now, even with info from my two earlier posts it appears that you may need to get some help at the range from someone who knows something about how to build a steady positon from bone alone. Then, you will be well equipped with any combination of bone and artificial support for any field expedient position.

 

[wigwamitus]

Oh boy, I suspect this is gonna be like when I was trying to play tennis ... after playing for a year "free style" I got an "expert" to show me how to serve and then for a week I couldn't serve at all, thinking about it too hard ... but ok ... ditch the pods and the bags and go back to "Army Shootin'" ... (I was Army shooting in the late 70s, we only were given bipods when shooting auto).

I've been looking for a rifle shooter around my parts, but they are few and far between, am still looking for someone consistent.

In the mean time I see a pile of you tubes on the subject ... I'll have to watch a bunch of them because I don't know which ones "do it right" so I'll have to synthesize from what makes sense. A Ken Roxburg video seems to be make the most sense so far. The non-firing elbow (almost) under the gun, feels a bit un-natural, but I'll keep working it on the floor in the house for a while. Trying the NAP test to try to detect when I'm more relaxed and when I'm less relaxed. Are there any NRA competitions that do "bone alone" or do they all at least allow "sling"?

 

[wigwamitus]

I love to shoot prone, but here in south Texas it's simply not something you're going to get the opportunity to do with any frequency. The grass is simply too high when you're hunting in the field...

Yup, the pasture grass around here can get chest high in lower ground in August. Right now we burned (a Flint Hills Kansas thing) many of the pastures around us, so there is a rare opportunity to go prone without too much trouble, but in general 13 inches of bipod is about the lowest I can do, with 21.5 inches getting me comfortable in a sitting position. I've done some tripod standing as well, but haven't actually tried shooting from kneeing yet though I'm been practicing in the house. In the Army I was in, qualifying was 100 rounds, one point each, shooting at plastic pop-up silhouettes. Normally the distances were 25 to 250 yards from various positions 10 rounds for each distance/position combination. I'm sure we did standing and kneeing and prone and foxhole, but those may have been the only positions. We had no bipod for qualifying. I owned a Colt AR-15 before I went in the Army so was already familiar with the system. The way they taught us to shoot was outstanding (IMHO) at least I'd say if you couldn't yet at least 90 out of 100 (which they called "expert") there must have been something wrong with you. I got 100/100 several times and had to shoot 3 extra 10-round groups at 300 for my reward (all the 100/100 guys had to shoot the extra round). But I was a different age then. I try to aim standing unsupported now and my non-shooting arm is moving around too much to hit very far out. Hence I decided to use scopes and bipods to try to help. But I'm hearing I should work without them first and unfortunately, that makes some sense. I just don't think I'll be very steady with standing unsupported position. Hum, maybe that means I should try that first .

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-05
1500-1600
80F
5 MPH NNE

Environment: Another hot sunny day, wind from the NNE 30 degress off the bullet path.

Equipment: .22LR shooting AM22, with Aim Sports 3-9x scope on 3x, no bipod. This was a "bones only" shoot.

Goal: Try "bones only" prone position with .22LR.

Activity: Set up at 60yd FP with Redfield 40x SS and 2x10 round magazines and .22LR. Was not zeroed. Fired 10 rounds aiming at the upper left target. Most rounds were clumped 3 inches high plus or minus 1.5 inches for elevation but spread across 4 inches with respect to windage. The Redfield could see the holes just fine. For the second 10 round group I held .5 mil right and .5 mil down. Overall this "group" was centered about 1.5 inches in the 2 o'clock direction but spread across 5 inches of elevation, 3 rds hit the 1 inch "bull".

The process I used to get into the position was:

01 - Drop to your knees
02 - Break the fall with right hand
03 - Extend and invert (want recoil to the rear)
04 - Heel of hand on butt drive forward close to neck under skull
05 - Reach up and establish grip
06 - Right elbow comes down naturally (tuck the right arm in a little)

I think the biggest problem is that I'm too "wiggly" to shoot without artificial stabilization, the "old man" syndrome. That's why I thought I'd shoot with bipods, but it was suggested to me to try "bones only", so I am. On the second 10 round group my arm was getting tired. I had to elevate the rifle a bit to point it towards the target. I don't shoot on level ground and the 60 yd position is on a down sloop a little below the target, so elevation required to point gun at target. I'll try some more.

Overall the goal is to learn more about how to create a stable position without the pods and bags with the idea than it will then improve ability to build stable position with pods and bags and unfortunately, that makes sense.

==

Later, dry firing with snap caps on the floor of the living room. The non-firing arm still feels a little "funny" being "forced" up under the "rifle". But I can acheive positions that pass the "gross NAP test" and where the reticle doesn't move when the trigger breaks. I'll keep working on the dry firing, need to get more "comfortable" with the arm position.

 

[M40_A1]

Well, bless you for trying, but there's no such thing as "bone only", unless you have your hand or arm laying between the ground and your forestock.

You need the sling for the bone to give the support and keep the butt in your shoulder. Otherwise, the butt will pull away from your shoulder and your arm will just flop over to the ground when you relax your muscles. The bones are in compression, and the sling is in tension. That allows you to relax your muscles. The bones (radius and ulna) support the forestock, and the sling holds the bones up by being attached to another bone (humerus), forming a triangle- a truss.

BTW, you keep mentioning "NAP". Do you mean "NPA" (Natural Point of Aim)? Or does NAP mean something else?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I was indeed referring to bone only, not with sling, loop or hasty. The OP should learn to build bone only first to help him recognize when NPA has been adjusted properly; and, to recognize when bone is actually supporting the position. When a novice shooter initially uses any artificial support the sense of muscular relaxation is dulled; and, in fact, the body may be inconsistently tensed to maintain the sight picture even when artificial support has been integrated correctly. This is observed as the shooter not relaxing into the support, which causes a multitude of errors.

Too often the novice shooter when slung up correctly is very uncomfortable and therefore he will not have confidence the position has been correctly built. Without a coach this can be very frustrating for the student. It thwarts learning. In SAFS where highly qualified instructors are at hand, they will first help the shooter into a good bone only position where all elements are maximized, then with a loosely attached M1 sling, the instructor will gradually draw it into the position so as to have the shooter feel its effect. Since SAFS is only an afternoon of training, the student does not have the sort of time on bone alone to really appreciate its value but nevertheless bone alone is where it still starts for all participants if only briefly.

OP,
I have an M4 Rifle Marksmanship Handbook which presents my annotations of the fundamentals. I use it in context to a basic marksmanship course I teach. This handbook is not illustrated and it is orientated to shooting the M4 so it may not be ideal for stand alone learning but if you'd like a copy of it please PM me with an email address. It might help you see the big picture.

 

[wigwamitus]

M40_A1: Oh my, I was referring to NPA, hecque can't even spell it !!!

SS: I've been looking for class, coach, but around here all the "rifle" classes are CQB oriented, knocking down doors etc. I found one coach briefly, but he got distracted by a negative real life event.

==
I spent two 30m sessions last night dry firing, non-firing elbow gets sore after a while, might need to wear long sleeves! On the floor I'm averaging under 2.0 NPA checks per shot (have to adjust position if NPA check fails), but in the field yesterday the average was over 2.0 per round fired. But I am getting the idea that with practice one could attain such a position much faster, not the 30 seconds is it probably taking me on average.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

As Marine Recruits in the mid 1960's, we were instructed in the Offhand, Sitting/Kneeling, and Prone positions; with no particular preference given to any one or other. It was important to be fully proficient in all. From that point, the rule of thumb was to assume whichever position allowed the best, and lowest firing opportunity under the current terrain conditions. Slings and natural support were trained and recommended.

Even these days, when presented with a fleeting shot opportunity, I generally come out of the event having taken, and shot from, a kneeling position.

One other significant point. Whenever shooting upslope or downslope, the 'normal' point of impact will have a tendency to move upward.

It is better to invest all possible extra time to the task of refining one's NPA rather than engaging and returning fire on the fly. As LL says, one can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Greg

 

[wigwamitus]

Doing some dry firing in house today, trying standing position. My non-firing arm was getting tired. Specifically the muscle inside (right side) the upper arm and this is the same muscle that gets tired when I'm prone. And I realized I was "pulling in" towards my body with the non-firing arm. When I stopped doing this the muscle stopped getting tired and it didn't seem to impact the NPA. So will try to make sure I don't "pull in" when prone to see if that helps.

... It is better to invest all possible extra time to the task of refining one's NPA rather than engaging and returning fire on the fly ...

This sounds like one of those quotes worth addding to the quote book.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

'Pulling in' can reduce felt recoil, but try doing it with the firing hand instead of the supporting hand.

Greg

 

[M40_A1]

I was indeed referring to bone only, not with sling, loop or hasty. The OP should learn to build bone only first to help him recognize when NPA has been adjusted properly; and, to recognize when bone is actually supporting the position. When a novice shooter initially uses any artificial support the sense of muscular relaxation is dulled;

I still think the term "bone only" is misleading. The whole purpose of the sling is so that you can relax the muscles and allow the bones alone to support the weight of the rifle. Without the sling you have to use muscle to support both the arm and the rifle.

 

[wigwamitus]

'Pulling in' can reduce felt recoil, but try doing it with the firing hand instead of the supporting hand.

Greg

Aye, I am pulling in with the firing hand.

When shooting with bipod, I'm trying to use the LL D1 technique of "pushing in" with the fingers instead of gripping the "nada" pistol grip, but without the bipod it seems pulling in with (and hence gripping) the "nowa" pistol grip is indicated.

==

After a couple of more dry fire sessions on the floor it seems that positioning the firing elbow a little further out from the center reduces the number of NPA tests I have to cycle through before I can work the trigger. The Ken Roxburg video encourages us to pull this elbow in, not push it out. I'm also experimenting with exactly how far out on the forearm to extend my non-firing hand. The judge of "better" is reduction of number of NPA tests required before I can work the trigger.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I still think the term "bone only" is misleading. The whole purpose of the sling is so that you can relax the muscles and allow the bones alone to support the weight of the rifle. Without the sling you have to use muscle to support both the arm and the rifle.

Well, bone alone is bone alone so I don't see it is misleading; but, another term for the same concept is unsupported position. The idea is to learn how to build a steady position from bone alone.

 

[tman300wm]

As Marine Recruits in the mid 1960's, we were instructed in the Offhand, Sitting/Kneeling, and Prone positions; with no particular preference given to any one or other. It was important to be fully proficient in all. From that point, the rule of thumb was to assume whichever position allowed the best, and lowest firing opportunity under the current terrain conditions. Slings and natural support were trained and recommended.

Even these days, when presented with a fleeting shot opportunity, I generally come out of the event having taken, and shot from, a kneeling position.

One other significant point. Whenever shooting upslope or downslope, the 'normal' point of impact will have a tendency to move upward.

It is better to invest all possible extra time to the task of refining one's NPA rather than engaging and returning fire on the fly. As LL says, one can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Greg

Words to live by from a man who knows what he's talking about.

 

[wigwamitus]

Last 18 rounds of dry fire required 33 NPA checks. I'm doing the "Bone's Only" (no pods, bags or slings) with AR style .22LR with iron sights on the floor in 6 round groups (that's how many snap caps I have). I require myself to pass a gross NPA check before squeezing the trigger.
33/18 is 1.8 NPA per shot. So I'll call that the "dry fire baseline". I think there is a correlation between discomfort in the non-firing arm and # of NPA checks required. In the last 6 rounds two of the rounds required 3 NPA checks, two of them required 2 checks and two only required 1 check. I think my non-firing arm was extended too far forward in the 3 NPA check cases. Having to cycle the .22LR after each trigger pull means I'm having to mostly rebuild the position each time, but that is ok, in fact, I'd say it is good.
Will continue this regimen.

 

[wigwamitus]

With dry firing overall I'm at 75 NPA checks required before dry firing 36 times. This is 2.08 average.

Last night I decided to add a sling to the rifle. The discomfort in my wrist was clearly affecting the results. The good news is that the addition of the sling has removed the wrist discomfort issue. The sling adds support in the right place.

After adding the sling, I'm at 14 NPA for 8 dry fires or 1.75 average. The dry firing will continue.

My target paper has 6 dots on it 8 inches apart at the other end of a 30 foot living room. The dots are 2 across and three tall, so I have to move my body around to aim at each dot. I have 6 x .22LR snap caps, so a full run will now be 1 snap at each of the six targets, thus forcing the moving.

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-08

Dry firing

I am now dry firing at 6 targets at 30 foot "living room". Two of the targets are 20 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart, these are the "high" targets, then two more are 12 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart, these are the "medium" targets and two more at 4 inches off the floor and 4 inches apart. I'm dry firing at them from upper left in a clockwise fashion. This forces re-aiming the body for each shot.

So I will present the results in a grid, the position of the numbers in the grid represents the position of the targets and the count of the NPA checks I had to take before I passed and could engage the trigger.

I have 6 snap caps for the .22LR so a dry firing "round" is 6 trigger pulls.

1st round
4 2
2 1
1 1
When the NPA count is high, there was discomfort. In this case, I learned that by moving my body forward and backward I can create or relieve tension in the muscele on the away from body side of the support arm.

2nd round
1 1
2 5
3 1
Another case of needing to move fore and aft. The left right movement I have got the idea of, it is the fore and aft movement I'm still learning about when and how to use. I also note that many of my missed NPA checks are "to the right", which I now think is caused by me putting pressure on the sling with my non-firing arm. Awareness might be half the battle. Changing elevations is tougher for me right now than changing from left to right.

3rd round
2 3
3 1
2 1
I actually made a small adjustment to the sling, tightened it up a bit. WIth the .303B sling, which is leather, "getting into" the sling takes no thought. But with this sling (Tactical Interventions) which I'll say is made of "plastic" (have no idea, but it isn't leather) the sling "hangs" on my arm a little and I need to move my arm about a bit to make sure I am solidly in the sling.

4th round
1 2
1 1
2 1
Maybe I'm finally getting the "range". The "pulling to the right" tendency is gone. Now most NPA check misses are elevation related.

5th round
2 2
1 1
2 1
Had wife telling me a story during this round. In this case it was unintended distraction. I want to practice with distractions, but not until I'm a little farther down the road!

==
Summary:
Well I finally got my quota of 30 dry fires today. If I do this for six months, maybe it will help. I'll still go out and shoot "wrong" some - to remeber what it sounds and feels like, but I see the benefits of this dry fire exercise and that motivates me to continue. I keep comparing it to "scales and chords" when I was playing piano. I'd played piano (and guitar) for a few years, but when I got in a band, I felt the need to get a lot better faster, so six months of scales and chords for the piano and never ending finger exercises (still done today) on the guitar helped me get to the next level. I'm sure it was boring to watch/listen too, but you have to train the motor elements of the system .

Today's average was 56/30 = 1.766


==

BTW, here are details of the process I'm using (words adjusted for RH shooter):

Ken Roxburg
01 - Drop to knees
02 - Break fall with right hand
03 - Extend and Invert ("3 is the key" as Ken exhorts his class to holler back)
04 - Grab the butt of the rifle and shove into the pocket
05 - Grip the rifle with the firing hand and let the elbow fall where it will naturally

Friend:
11 - Shoulder rifle and align sights without consideration of the target.
12 - Adjust NPA for desired sight picture.
13 - Pull focus off target and on to front sight post.
14 - Pull trigger smoothly.
15 - Follow through.

NPA Check:
align sights on target
close eyes
count to 20
open eyes
if sights did not move, check is passed, otherwise repeat
aim the body and rifle together as one device, do not aim the rifle

 

[JBNj]

Interesting thread. [MENTION=96335]wigwamitus[/MENTION] you could also build a platform for you to lay prone on that raises you above the terrain you'll be shooting over. Otherwise a lot of insight here already that I'm gonna have to use.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

You have not mentioned how you are dressed, like short sleeves on concrete as opposed to shooting with a sweat shirt and jacket on carpet. Make it comfortable so as to not be distracted. You also might want to do dry firing exercises from the standing position. This is the position where NPA as well as trigger control will have the most effect on results.

 

[wigwamitus]

How dressed?

Short sleeves on living room carpet. I added a towel for more padding, this isn't a plush carpet. Elbows on the ground not a source of discomfort at this point. Since "copping out" and adding the sling, the wrist discomfort is also gone. Only discomfort now comes (I think) when I am too extended fore and aft (elbow and mid-section) or left to right (elbows), then muscles complain a bit, but that is good, because I shouldn't be that extended.

==
Results from 2014-05-09

1 1
1 5 both fore/aft and left to right issues
1 2 fore/aft

4 2 (4=fore/aft stock placement, 2 = right)
1 1
2 1 (2=f/a up)

1 1
1 2 (2=right and up)
1 2 (2=f/a)

1 1
1 1
1 2 (high, f/a)

1 1
1 1
1 1

I'm finally getting to the point where I can predict which ways I have to move while first sighting in, before closing eyes. If this can be sustained and improved, the ratio ( NPA-check / dry-fires ) should drop.

Average for today 43/30 = 1.433

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Since you have introduced the sling, read the "position" section in the manual I emailed to you. It shows step by step how to build a proper prone loop sling supported position. BTW, I sort of like your persistence. Desire, discipline, and brains will get you there.

 

[JBNj]

Since you have introduced the sling, read the "position" section in the manual I emailed to you. It shows step by step how to build a proper prone loop sling supported position. BTW, I sort of like your persistence. Desire, discipline, and brains will get you there.

Would you mine passing that info to me also as i still have lots to learn about position?

 

[wigwamitus]

JBNj
BTW, I've gotten a number of suggestions recently, among them were:

01 - Mow the grass (in my pastures to clear lanes of fire)
02 - Chop down the trees (around my targets and firing points in my pastures - to clear lanes of fire)
03 - Don't fire prone
04 - Stop shooting altogether!
05 - Shoot from the backs of trucks and buggies (which I have done until I realized the wind was moving me around too much - at least in the buggy)
06 - Lay a concrete slab and get a bench
07 - Build a platform to raise me up.

There were others as well, but this group of suggestions has helped me realize that I need to clarify my shooting goals. Part of what I want to do, is adapt my shooting style to the terrain around me, rather than adapt the terrain around me to particular shooting styles. I didn't clearly realize that distinction previously. Now I do!

==
==

SS - I read the prone/sling points (again). I have a question. Per D1 video, Frank says to get "straight behind rifle" and not to bend knee for bipod shooting, though he says sling shooters use "bent knee" to advantage. Do I need to use "bent knee" with sling and "straight" with bipod or will "straight" work ok for sling?

Persistence I have ... but it is folks like you who tell me in which direction to persist ... and that increases the productivity of persistence ... thanksl! As to "brains" haha, maybe just enough to come and ask for help .

 

[Sterling Shooter]

With sling you want the position as described in manual. You want to place the non firing hand as directly under the handguard as possible to create mechanical advantage, that's to say, artificial/ bone support. When the sling is adjusted properly, you will be able to relax into it. It's the part about adjusting it to the correct length that usually takes some time figuring out. You can make incremental adjustments to sling length until it is too short to allow even when stretching to get into position. Backing off a little will get a solid position, which after awhile you will discern as being comfortable.

 

[wigwamitus]

ok gotcha, will add the "bent knee" element to sling position(s) as of today.

Yes, I had to adjust the .22LR sling I'm using for the bulk of the dry firing about 5 times. And I had to adjust the .303B sling twice, it is not as adjustable, I'd rather have it about half way in between where I can get it. So it is either a tiny bit loose or a tiny bit tight. But, I'm doing the bulk of the dry firing with the .22LR which is totally adjustable.
==
2014-05-10

dry firing (.22LR with sling and iron sites, 6 targets, 6 dry fires per "round")

4 1 (4=2xf/a, 2xl/r)
3 1 (3=1xf/a, 2xl/r)
1 1

Fixing a fore and aft problem, induces and left & right problem and vice versa (at least sometimes). Uncomfortable muscles tells "brain" (loose term with me) that I need to make an adjustment, sometimes I over correct.



Field firing (7.62 with bipod and scope and DM18A1B1 10gr, 4000fps ammo) at 109yds.
Wind was averaging 8.8 from 150 degress with respect to the bullet path. First round was 2.6 mils low and .4 mils left. I adjusted knobs. Out of 20 rounds fired, I hit 1 inch bull 4 times. Other rounds were stretched out to the left over a 10 inch swathe. I didn't write the NPA checks down, but they ranged from 1 four to several threes and twos and about half ones (the average was over 2). The main issue was losing eye relief after opening eyes. I was trying to fire with no rear bag, bipod only and butt of rifle was lower down cauing my neck to have to crane back a bit farther than normal. So my head was "nodding" forward during the 20 count. Pushing down on the stock with my check made the "crane" problem worse as my head was lower down. I will have to get my head up higher next time to avoid the craning.
I'm glad I remembered the BM18A1B1 ammo, it is good for something like this. Sort of half way between dry firing and real firing.
I also need to figure out how to manage paper in the field in the wind. Worst case I have to take it out of my pack, write on it and put it back in my pack.

dry firing

(7.62 bipod, rear bag)
1 1
2 1 (2=right)
1 2 (2=right)

(5.56 bipod & rear bag)
1 1
1 1
1 1
(tried to be real careful. Had to change elevation of bipod 4 times, each time elevation of target changed. With the 14.5 barrel, the bipod had more "leverage")

(.303B)
4 3
2 2
2 1
(tightened sling twice)

(.22LR)
3 2 (3=low right, right)(2=right)
1 1
1 2 (2=low)

4 2 (4=hi, hi, hi)(2=right)
1 1
1 2 (2=hi)

(.22LR)
1 1
1 1
1 1
(key seems to be to relax and take as much tension out of the position as possible - with the 4 result in the previous "round" I think I brought some tension to the session in my brain)

(.22LR)
2 1 (2=left)
1 1
1 1

2014-05-10
2200-2330
70F
5 mph SE

Activity: Fired 10 rounds LC 62gr gT out of 5.56 with LP scope on 3.5x and NVD (no IR). We had half moon, though cloud cover was about 50%. Only the brighest 2 dozen stars were visible. Lighting, thunder and rain around, only light drizzle falling on me. Used NPA check before each round. Walked back and forth to targets between first four rounds. NPA checks were:

4, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2 ... most of the twos were due to working on eye relief due to stock positioning. This is new rifle, one week old, still getting used to proper stock position was various firing positions.
The first round was 3.5 inches low, so I cranked up 7 clicks (1/2 moa knobs) the second two were .5 inches high, so I cranked down 1 click. Fourth round was .5 inch low, but I decided to "FFE" the next six rounds. Five of them were on the 1 inch bill, 1 was .5 inch high. I adjusted the stock two more times during these last six rounds to try to get a good cheek weld and good eye relief. Important point was that I think the NPA checks helped. I'm usually "around" the bull with every round, but tonight I had more "on the bull" ... so I'm seeing an improvement already.

So goal will be 30 dry fires with the .22LR each day (150 per week minimum) and I'll try to do at least 30 rounds in the field three nights during the week.

NPA ratio for the day (all combined) 91/64 = 1.42

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-11

dry firing (prone .22LR with sling and iron sites)

4 2 (4=rt, rt, rt)(2=low&rt)
1 1
1 2 (2=rt)

4 2 (4=rt, rt, lo-rt))lo-rt)
1 1
1 2 (2=left)

Problem with these two above sequences probably, was trying to rush it.

1 1
2 1 (2=rt)
2 1 (2=rt)

1 1
1 1
1 2 (2=rt)

==
dry firing .22LR with harris bipod set at 21.5 inches for sitting position
1 1
1 1
1 1
(seemed easy the first time)
3 2
1 1
1 2
(tried moving my body for the first three dry fires, then shifted back to moving bipod. Maybe best idea is to be able to move either)

==
dry firing .22LR with sling and iron sites standing
5 was low every time, stopped after 5 fails
==
dry firing (prone .22LR with sling and iron sites)
2 1 (hi, left)
1 1
1 1

Today's combined (including 5 failed standing attempts) ratio 65/42 (65 npa checks / 42 dry fires) = 1.55

 

[wigwamitus]

2014-05-12

dry firing.

(.22LR with sling) In an attempt to increase the difficulty of the NPA checks, and hence the value of the exercise, I decreased the size of the aiming points, from 3/4 inch circles to 5/16 inche circles. And I changed out the iron sites for a 3-9x AimSports (POS) scope set at 3x. This means that an NPA check must now meet a higher level of tolerance to pass.

5 2 (5=lo-rt, lo-rt, rt, rt)(2=rt)
2 2 (2=lo-rt)(2-rt)
1 1
(yes, it is harder, it feels like I'm starting over!)

(5.56 with scope on 3.5x and Harris 6-9 inch bipod)
1 2
6 3
5 4
(I have to move bipod down 2 clicks for each change to lower elevation and up 2 clicks for each change to higher elevation)

(back to .22LR with sling and 3x scope)
5 2 (5=lo-rt, lo-rt, lo, hi-rt)(2=rt)
2 2 (2=lo-rt)(2=lo-rt)
4 3 (4=lo, rt, rt)(3=hi-lt, lo-rt)

1 3 (3=hi, rt)
1 1
2 2 (2=hi)(2=hi)

3 1 (3=lo-rt, rt)
3 1 (3=lt, lo)
2 1 (2=rt)

1 1
3 3 (3=up, up)(3=up, rt)
1 1

4 3 (4=lo, lo=rt, lo)(3=rt, rt, lo)
1 3 (3=rt, rt, lo)
1 3 (3=lo, rt)

(yup, feels like I am starting over, but I think that is ok. Increasing the tolerance seems indicated. I'm shooting at 30 foot distance on the living room floor, so making the aim point smaller simulates a greater distance and when outside, I usually shoot farther than 30 foot)

==
Well after a week of "ramping up" this exercise, I do not want to bore folks, so I'll come back with some weekly updates for a while ... and if it really goes six months, I'll probably shift to monthly updates after a few weekly ones. I really appreciate the suggestions, nudges, logic, etc. to get me going down this path. I can see that this is a good path, the fog has cleared just a tiny bit!!!

today's ratio NPA/dry fires was 98/42 = 2.33 ... this is new baseline after changing aiming point size.

 

[wigwamitus]

Here is the dry fire record for the week 5/12 thru 5/19




==
And here is a field fire report from the week

2014-05-18
1230-1430
70F
8 mph SW

Environment: Clear, partly cloudy, sub was obscured on occasion. Wind from the SW.

Equipment: .22LR, with aimsport 3-9x scope and sling with AM22 40gr 1200fps. .308WIN bolt gun with 168gr AMAX, LP 6.5-20x TMR set at 6.5x and Harris 13-27 inch bipod set at 13 inches.

Goal: Shoot 10rd, 10 spot drill with NPA checks.

Activity:

Fired 10rds of .22LR from upper left clockwise, 1 rd at each dot. These rounds were fired at 60yds.



01 - NAP =3 (rt, rt) ... 3 inches left.

02 - NPA = 2 (lo) ... 2 inches left.

03 - NPA = 2 (rt) ... 1 inch left.

04 - NPA = 2 (lf) ... 1 inch right.

05 - NPA = 1 ... 1 inch left.

06 - NPA = 2 (lf) ... 1 inch down.

07 - NPA = 2 (lo) ... 1 inch down.

08 - NPA = 2 (lo) ... 2 inches down.

09 - NPA = 1 ... 2 inches left.

10 - NPA = 1 ... 2 inches left.

Fired 10rds of 7.62 from upper left clockwise, 1 rd at each dot. These rounds were fired at 109yds.



01 - NPA = 2 (lo) ... 1 inch left

02 - NPA = 2 (rt) ... 1 inch lo-left

03 - NPA = 3 (lf, lo) ... 1 inch left

04 - NPA = 2 (lo) ... 1 inch left

05 - NPA = 1 ... 2 inches lo left

06 - NPA = 1 ... 2 inches left

07 - NPA = 2 (lf) ... 2 inches left

08 - NPA = 2 (rt) ... 1 inch low

09 - NPA = 4 (lt, lo, lo-rt) ... 1 inch low-left

10 - NPA = 1 ... 1 inch left

Summary: Why all the misses to the left? Is it trigger or needing to click?

npa/fire ratio in the field was 1.9

==

Overall weekly summary: I think the "emotional baggage" I bring to the dry fire sessions might be the biggest variable. This causes me to "rush" things instead of relaxing and enjoying. Low score sessions happen when I am relaxed and enjoying and taking my time and high score sessions happen when I am distracted by other thoughts and hurrying. Most of the 6 round dry fire sessions are separated by an hour or more, but not all. I wonder if I should do some sort of 5m "workout" before I dry fire. This might at least shake out some of the physical nervous energy ... and maybe help me transition from work concerns to the task at hand. Kind of like stretching before a run ... I see if I can weave that it.
The .308 dry fires have a better average than the .22LR dry fires, because the bipod is a more stable platform than the sling, at least with me driving the sling. But I might be getting more benefit from the sling shooting. Maybe I will take the bipod off the .308 for next week's dry fires and try it "bone only". I think this .308 "hunting style" rifle is more comfortable to try the bones only with.

I need to find a way to score the results in the field. I think something like this (for 109yds or less):

distance between
POA and POI // score

0-.49 inches // 10
.5 - 1.49 inches // 9
1.5 - 2.49 inches // 8
3.5 - 4.49 inches // 7

measuring from center of aiming point, to center of impact point.

Then I will have two types of scores, the ratio of npa checks to dry or actual fires and the target scores for the actual fires. Ultimately, it is the target scores that matter.

==

Well if no one can read that first "data pic" I might need to come up with a different way to present that data.

The overall weekly average of NPA to dry fires was 1.75 with the best daily average being 1.47 and the worst daily average being 2.0, so quite a lot of variation.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

It appears you are making NPA too hard. First, shoulder the rifle and just let it point to where ever it naturally points. Then, adjust by moving the whole body at the belt buckle. For example, to move sight to the left move the belt buckle right. After adjustment, to have the sense of the position being solid, no arc of movement and muscular relaxation, dry fire. Any movement will reveal poor trigger control.

Now, with so much having been explained and yet not seeing results, you might want to get a coach/mentor to help with your shaky start, as the way you are going about it may eventually discourage you. Nevertheless, here's what I suspect may be your issue with the matter of NPA: I mentioned it in my first post, you adjust Natural Point of Aim to create a sight picture, not after you have a sight picture, possibly created from muscle. If you use any muscle to steer to target to get a sight picture it will be very difficult thereafter to adjust NPA, since adjustment will require abandonment of aim and your brain does not want that to happen. This is why it may be necessary to close your eyes and, upon sensing relaxation, open them again to understand the condition of the position, that's to say, to understand if you unconsciously steered the rifle to target using some muscle. When I realize I've unconsciously steered to the target I will just rebuild the position rather than try to salvage my poor position by attempting to back out of muscle tension from where the sight is on target, since my brain will not want to cooperate to release the muscle tension which is keeping me on target.

 

[wilecoyote]

How dressed?
Short sleeves on living room carpet. I added a towel for more padding, this isn't a plush carpet. Elbows on the ground not a source of discomfort at this point...

if allowed, I'm of the opinion that it would be appropriate and of some help to carry out each exercise with the same equipement(mat ?) and clothing used in the field_ if this was as close as possible to a shooting jacket, even better, of course_
(p.s.:each time it is recommended a coach, I think of the golf pro's who, altough champions, for their entire career they recur periodically to their coach aid..)
thanks for starting this thread!

 

[wigwamitus]

All,
I realize it is difficult if not impossible to coach or correct my practice without seeing my attempts to build a position, but I do appreciate the words and I think they do help. I am far from discouraged and have no plan to be discouraged!
In earlier lives I taught myself to play piano and guitar and it took years to get good enough to be in a band and make money. And I taught myself enough math, my worst subject in high school, to make As and wound up majoring in math in College. So I am not afraid of tackling difficult tasks that take a lot of work. My parents (musicians) could act as my coaches when I was learning guitar and piano (though neither of them played guitar) but I had no coach for the math learning. I was on my own that time.

Perhaps I do not expect immediate improvement, my expectation is that improvement will come in batches of "punctuated equilibrium" at 1 or more points along the six month journey I think I set myself on with the NPA drill.
It would be great to have a coach, but I am in a rural area and they don't seem to be falling from the sky around here. I've had two candidates come out here, but perhaps it is too far from "civilization" .

I'm looking for "training" ... but most of the training looks too advanced ... like "long range precision shooting" classes that are a week long ... etc. not sure I'm seeing any "how to build a natural position" classes.
I did meet a guy recently who is an NRA High Power "master" and had a chat with him and he is the one who first told me to "count to 20" with the NPA checks, instead of the "two full breathing cycles" I had been doing. I'm trying to nudge him into the coach role, but real life intervenes and it hasn't happened yet.

So for now trying to do the best I can with what I have available.

==

If I fail an NPA check, I do not just point the rifle at the target. I do move my whole body. I move my feet usually to correct a left to right problem, they can "steer" my body to turn left or right. And I use my feet and elbows to adjust for "elevation" if my NPA check result is high or low. If this sounds right or wrong, please advise!
I do require myself to be "dead on" to the 5/16 inch dots I am aiming at. Even though the cheap scope I have on the .22LR is a mil dot and I can't actually see the black 5/16 inch dot if I am dead on, I can see the proportion of orange around the black dots that were my previous 3/4 inch aiming points. So if I see equal portions of orange around the center black dot of the reticle, I call it good. Sometimes I fail an NPA check by a larger margin (a inch or more) and sometimes by a small margin, less than a inch. But I try to be strict.

==

As to matching the conditions in the field ... one variable there is the elevations. In the field I am shooting mostly down hill. Whereas the living room floor is fairly level. Of the six aiming points I dry fire at in the living room, two of them are 18 inches off the floor, two are 12 inches off the floor and two are 4 inches off the floor. And they are 4 inches apart laterally. So I have to rebuild the position for each shot, but that seems to be good. But there is no position in the living room where I am aiming "down hill" as I do in the field.
I think the vision of the NPA is that, once you can build a good position, then it won't matter what crazy position you encounter in the field, you will be able to build a solid position to fit the circumstances and that vision sounds like the ideal goal, so I want to move towards that goal.


I think I understand that SS is essentially telling me to "check" my position before doing the 20 count. To build the position and "check it" with maybe a 2-4 second eye closing and then rebuild if not correct, and do that as many times as needed, to get it right, before doing the 20 count. I am not doing that, so doing that might change the reported results. So I will start doing that.

I might ask, what progress should be seen at this point, that is not being seen? It might sound like an obvious question, but I find myself wondering .

Are there other ways to measure myself that can be suggested?

==

Thanks for the help and attention!!!