need help designing a case

Re: need help designing a case

use a 408 chey tac case necked to 30 it has already been done. Chase up Kirby allen from allen precision shooting he has done it. I have to ask why though? if you go to the 338 you will have better barrel life and better ballistics on top of that you can shoot the 300gr MatchKings at 3200 plus and double the barrel life. With the 30 cal barrel life will be around 500 rounds as long as you know this in advance.

I would be interested in why you are going down this route as every one has a reason.
 
Re: need help designing a case

I was thinking of long range accuracy. I have a 338 allen mag great gun cant say enough good things aboout it. My thought was in long range benchrest shooting and most shooting in general the smaller the caliber more accurate it is. For example 600yd benchrest the 6 br, 6 dashers 6X47 rules. Wins more matches than any other caliber.The 240smk and the 300grn smk bc are both in the .7s I might give up a little bit of energy at long ranges like a mile but not a lot. I know Kirby tried the 30-408 and said it didnt work. The only other combo that I could think of would be if you took the 408 case shortened it then necked it down to 30. I would want barrel life to be at least 1000 rounds before i would want to try it. Just wanted to know if you guys thought it would be possible.
Thanks
 
Re: need help designing a case

You don´t get 3300-3400 from a 30-338 Lapua, or 30-378WEA.

QL - math.:

Lapua 89grs N570 will give about 3100

WEA using 105grs of N570 about 3200

BOTH at max.pressure

Best
2RECON

PS: A "Beast" like this will ruin your barrel VERY fast
 
Re: need help designing a case

I'd think .338LM necked down to .30 with 3.80 OAL to lands would get you close to 3300 with a 34" barrel.

93 grains of N560 gets 250gr 338LM to 3140+ from a 26" barrel.

Buy a .338LM magazines from desert tactical arms, you can load the 338LM out to 3.85 OAL. They have plenty of room to get longer bullets out of the powder stack.
 
Re: need help designing a case

What about .460 Wby, .404 Jeffery, or .500 Jeffery? If the Chey-Tac case(.505 Gibbs) doesn't work out for you, I think you are chasing a pipe dream of getting a .30 cal 240gr at 3400fps. These cases are largely overbore, you are going to need a special barrel and special powder to make it happen otherwise.
 
Re: need help designing a case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharp Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,
I want so shoot a 240 grain 30 cal smk 3300 to 3400 fps. I just dont know what case to use. Barrel length no more than 34inches long. Can someone help me? </div></div>

Bullets are more accurate at certain velocity ranges.

From what I've read the 240 SMK shoots best right around 3000-3050 fps.

Steve
 
Re: need help designing a case

if the 408 case did not work out then you dont have a chance. if the 338 Lapua will not drive a 338 250gr projectile to that speed their is no way that necked to 30 cal it will drive the 240 anywhere close to it. because of the expansion ratio going to a smaller diameter will mean that you can not push it as fast as the 338 250. also having the 1000 round barrel life stipulation is a complete no go you would be closer to 500 rounds if you would get a case to do it.Stick with a 338/408 of some sourt or step down to a 7mm Allen Mag as they will do almost the same as the 30 cal would have been doing. the true BC between the 240gr MatchKing and the 7mm 175gr MatchKing is not much at all. the 240's are not in the .7's the tested BC's by Brian Litz are as follows 300gr 338 .745, 240gr 30 cal .647 and 175gr 7mm .639 so it will be easier to get the 175gr 7mm MatchKing to the speed of 3300fps with a 7mm Allen Mag than trying to push the extra 65gr at the same velocity for a .008 BC advantage. it is actualy very hard to make the 30 cal beet the 7mm in drift with the 30 cal as the 7mm is just in a majic zone of weight and BC that just works. to get a better result from a 7mm you realy need to step up to a 338 and use 300gr projectiles. I have a 270 Allen Mag and it launches the 165 and 195gr 277 projectiles at amasing speeds i have to try and get some of the resized 180gr heavy jacketed bergers for it they should be awsome and will have a BC above the 7mm 175gr MatchKings i might even see if i can get any 175gr matchkings sized to .277 they will be amasing i think.
 
Re: need help designing a case

Great topic. You've hit on one of the conundrums of cartridge design: case capacity, projectile construction, barrel life, and maximum velocity. Here's my two cents based on what I've learned from personal experience over the last 15 or so years of plinking:

1) Accuracy/Velocity Nodes: in my experience, a given bullet will show accuracy at certain velocities; for me, these tend to be about 150 to 200 fps apart. My favorite cartridge of all time is the 300 WinMag loaded with a 240 grain Sierra. Depending on the barrel, I can run MOA out to 1000 yards at 2450 fps, but I can get a max velocity of 2850 to 2900 fps. Best accuracy tends to occur at 2600, 2750, and 2900, although at 2900 I get a lot of unexplained fliers. Perhaps a slower twist barrel would help, but I'm short of both the time and $$ to test that theory.

Why the WinMag and not a larger cartridge? When I used the 300 WBY or a 300 WBY Improved variant, I observed that I had the same accuracy nodes as the Win Mag, but I could not push the bullet any faster before I ran into pressure problems. With the powders I was using, I still had 10% case volume left unused. I like a full case, so I said to my self, "Self, why are you using these larger cartridges?" and went back to the Win Mag. I flirted briefly with the 30-378 cartridge, but could not get accuracy at the increased velocities I could get.
Part of this is undoubtedly barrel twist, but the other part is that air density increases as the cube of the velocity; twice as fast gives you 8 times the air resistance, and at veolocities approaching 3200 fps, the bullets didn't seem to fly any better than out of a WinMag at 2900. In fact, the only "high" BC bullet I've been able to get accuracy out of is a 6mm 105 grain AMax out of my 6mm 40X at 3200 fps, which is a 1/2 moa shooter for whatever life the barrel is going to give me - I guess about 600 rounds.

The name of the game is hi bc, stable flight projectiles that minimize time of flight and thus the dwell time of external vectors such as wind and gravity. The CheyTac cartridges are the best thing I've seen hit the shooting world since I've been shooting; John Taylor managed to balance cartridge size with and enormously efficient and well constructed bullet.

We're always trying to reinvent the wheel, but a good cartridge is made first around the best projectile available for that caliber, and then brass that will show the most load density for a that bullet at its most accurate velocity node in a given barrel twist. There are numerous formulae that minds greater than my own use to pre-plan this, but in my experience, here are my picks:

.224: 55grain Ballistic Tip @ 3250 fps, 1/8 or 1/9 twist
.243: 105grain AMax @ 3200 fps, 1/10 twist
.270: 130grain MatchKing @ 2950 fps 1/10 twist
.308: 175grain MatchKing @ 2750 fps from a 308/7.62 cartridge, 1 in 12 twist
.308: 240grain MatchKing @ 2750 fps, 1/10 twist.

The Future: getting ready to explore the 375 CT using Sierra MatchKings and a 1/12 twist Lawton Barrel.

Remember, just my $.02.
 
Re: need help designing a case

Not sure why you want the 3300-3400 range but there are plenty of necked down 30cal variants that are shooting the 240SMK with great results.
Google 300 HULK for one.

Also, where are you located in Ohio?.. Get out to Thunder Valley and you can shoot a 300 Hulk for yourself, not to mention get him (Tom Sarver) to build you one.

Edit... Just saw your post in the TVP thread so obviously you already know Tom.
smile.gif
Happy Shooting..
 
Re: need help designing a case

30-416 Rigby will do it. It is a bitch to shoot but it will do what you are asking. I couldn't stand to pull the trigger on mine more than 10 rounds at one sitting but you can reach those speeds with the 240.

Bruce Baer has the reamers.
 
Re: need help designing a case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THUNDERBOLT68</div><div class="ubbcode-body">take the 338 lapua neck down to 30 cal </div></div>

Or some guys shoot a 338 Lapua improved version. you may be able to do a 300-338 Lapua improved and get the velocities you want if your acceptable barrel max length is 34".

Berger is eventually coming out with a 300VLD. I plan to shoot this bullet in 338 Lapua improved when the bullet comes out. According to Brian Litz book it has an average G1 BC of .912 as tested!

I agree with the guys that have said there are better ways to get where you want. The 180 7mm VLD is a .659bc that would be a great bullet. Or the .338 Big Bear, higher bc bullets and MV.
 
Re: need help designing a case

Umm...

What's the application? Are we knocking Elk arse sideways over teakettle, or slaying the wily paperbeast?

If BC and velocity are your goal, as opposed to terminal energy, you may be building upwards, when building downwards could be more rewarding. Howzabouts a 6.5 WSSM pitching Bergers into the hinterlands? Lickitysplit with a good BC.

Rather than building the ultimate eargeschplittin loudenboomer shouldergewhacker, perhaps the application of elegant projectile miniaturization and more manageable case capacity might be in order.

Just a thought.

Greg
 
Re: need help designing a case

The 30-338 LM Imp is a great round and i have one for a hunting rifle. Its works great. The 300 HULK is actually a shorter version then the one i use. Mine will easily break the 3000 FPS and with the right setup you could do 3200-3300 no problem. If you want to give me a call i can help you out with what i have been doing.
 
Re: need help designing a case

Thanks for all the help guys. The thought behind designing this case is I have a 6x47 that shoots great between 3000 to 3050fps. My 6-284 shoots at the next velocity node of 3350-4000 fps. Using the 107 smk. I have a 30-338 NM improved I can shoot the 240grn SMK 3000fps. I want to be able to get up to that next velocity node 3300fps to 3400fps. Like I did it with the 6mm and I was also able to do it with the 300grn 338smk. When you are able to go up to the next velocity node the wind bucking ability of the bullet is 10 times better. The rifle would be used for long range hunting and tatical shooting.
 
Re: need help designing a case

One last source of information: check the results for 1000 yard BR matches. You'll see most of the winning guns are 300 Win and 300 WBY variants. I've seen a lot of 30-378s and 30-416s be shot, but not a lot of them win, and not many people shoot them. Bruce Baer's name came up, ask him about the cartidge. I don't want to discoourage your desire to build this beast; I'd love to see you make one of these beasts work. I just have not observed a lot of success from the "Ultra Mag" class. It would be great if you could be an exception to that; I think the 240 will hold together OK at those velocities; the original 250 SMKs definitely would not. Good luck, man.
 
Re: need help designing a case

I have checked the results for 1000yd benchrest. I do shoot a lot of 1000yd benchrest matches. I know the 30cals hold most of the world records. That is why I wanted to build a big 30 instead of a 338. Tom Sarver holds the world record group in light gun with a shortened version of the 30 - 338 Laupa. He calls it the 300 Hulk. I want to use this gun for shooting extreme long ranges 1500 to 2500 yards. My thought on picking the 240 smk insted of the 300grn 338 was the edge in accuracy from the statistics from 1000yd benchrest. As of now I do not see this project achieveable unless I use a longer barrel which would not be practical for long range hunting or tactical steel matches.
 
Re: need help designing a case

I think that your project is doable, but maybe not as a .30 cal.

A modern rifle, chambered in .264WM (which is a .338WM necked down to 6.5mm), with a throat designed for modern high BC/VLD type 6.5mm bullets, a 28-30" barrel, and proper load development using modern propellants, should be capable of the distances you seek to explore.

The 6mm and .338's you've already employed have provided the performance you need, and seeing the 1Kyd BR winners using .30 cal is undoubtedly a heady incentive. But I think you've already realized the difficulties involved. Hanging one's hat on a star, a .30 calber star in this case, is tempting.

But I think a 6.5mm star may be more the ticket. If you don't like belted mags, some of the more modern shorter mags could probably get you there as well, maybe even better.

Greg
 
Re: need help designing a case

Sharpshooter,
I believe you posted this same question over on LRH website, and I will answer it in a similar way as I did on that site.
The 338 Norma/Lapua cases will not get you the velocity you are looking for in a 30 Cal. My 300 JAZZ(30-338 Norma Imp) will shoot the 240gr SMK at 2950-3000, and I don't see the 30-338 Lapua Imp doing any better than that.The 240gr SMK at 2950fps is all I need in a 30cal. As far as necking down the 408 Chey-Tac case to 30cal, why would you want to? No barrel life in that one. You have been given very good advice so far concerning 7mm . I would concider going with a smaller caliber since you already have a 338 AM which is a hell of a hammer of a rifle.I don't see what is being gained by pushing the 240gr to 3400fps over what you already have.
 
Re: need help designing a case

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bluejazz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 338 Norma/Lapua cases will not get you the velocity you are looking for in a 30 Cal. </div></div>

I don't know enough to say that for certain regarding the Lapua version.

But I do know of a 30-338 Lapua Improved, 124 grains fireformed total case capacity, 3.785 COAL, F215GM, 105 gr Retumbo, 26.25" Lilja 10 twist, 210 Berger VLD, 3436 fps avg, 4 firings on Lapua brass, and it's brass demonstrates no classic signs of pressure. While <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">this is a warm load</span></span>, it has been pressed even harder/faster. However, best accuracy found at a lower pressure at approx 3340 fps. Velocity validated through drop data, to alleviate chrono accuracy concerns. Will get around to the 240s in a couple months.

I would be leery when absolutes are used in answers to your questions on this quest, especially since it appears as though you are looking to push the envelope, and do something most won't have experience with. Recommmend you contact Kirby Allen who has extensive testing experience with the Lapua case, and see if your goals are realistic based on his experience.
 
Re: need help designing a case

Sharp Shooter,

I do love how accurate the 30 cal 240 SMK's are!I tend to agree with you on that.

Here's some pics from a couple years ago_Obviously there was no wind.
1017080830a.jpg


There's two different groups on this 2'x3' steel plate.Top one is 13".Bottom is 15".

Distance was 1800 yards.

I shot this with my 30-375Ruger.
Velocity was 2775 fps.My new load sends the 240's at 2925fps.

Here's a pic of some cartridges for comparison.l/r...6x47Lapua,30-375Ruger,375Cheytac.Nah..I don't like wildcat cartridges...not at all.
DSC00028.jpg


Steve