Gunsmithing New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Ratbert

Ratbert

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 18, 2007
2,341
1
47
Concord, NC
#1
I'm in the early stages of planning to satisfy my craving for a lathe of my own, to be used primarily for gunsmithing hobby. I'm torn between getting a new chinese model like the 4003G Grizzly with all the neato up-to-date features like gearbox speed selection, DRO's, water jet, et al or place my faith in the old world craftsmanship of something like a South Bend 10x28.

Anyone here used a 4003G and have a comment on how satisfied I'm going to be with the long term quality of a somewhat low-end chinese lathe?
 
#2
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Hey Ratbert,
I'm in just about the same spot as you. I've been reading about people's experience and suggestions and for the most part, it seems to be positive for the 4003G. Grizzly just released a newer version that is a tad bigger I think and about $1000 more. I think it has a complete geared head? Anyways, I plan on getting the 4003G for myself this summer and would to see what others say on this thread.

I've practiced on a much much larger lathe and a smaller lathe and I feel that the 4003G should be just about right. Like the three bears.

Good luck!
Mike
 
#4
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I was in your position before. I will say this and then duck the bashing. An old South Bend 10 is the cream of the crop....provided it is not worn out. Another factor is shipping. Sit down when you ask the price for shipping and crating. You found a sweet deal on a lightly used SB 10 for say......$1500 with all the goodies and then they tell you it is 3500 to ship. Still a good deal actually. If you go the chinese route look for ones made in Taiwan. Better made. As a follow up, forget the bells and whistles. Foot brake, used it twice on mine, just to see it work, you won't need it. Flood coolant pump, same deal, watched it work once, makes one hell of a mess and I prefer my little oil can feeding the bits. Steady rest....sits in the corner under 3 inches of dust, better off making a spider for the left side of the head stock to dial in the barrel to a kajillionth of an inch. Follow rest....I have a brand new one, never used will give to you for shipping cost. The work light however is something I will never do without. You speak of Grizzly, I chose the 0554Z. It has the widest bed width. Logically speaking, the wider the bed the less chance of front to back runout. Bed length of 40 is more than enough. Once you buy your preferred lathe get ready to spend money on tooling
smile.gif
Happy chip making and flame suit on!
 
#5
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Well, that was sort of my concern: a refurbished South Bend 10x28 is going to end up as much or more than the Grizzly even before shipping. Is it worth it? It's true that the biggest "features" of the grizzly I'd want is the splash guard and the built in spider, stuff like the fluid or the rests really doesn't interest me either. But would the grizzly's movements be nicer/better from being more modern or just newly constructed? Would the new/modern gearbox be quieter or noiser than an old belt drive? It seems the new gearbox would be easier to flip from high speed down to 70 rpm, but perhaps it's actually a PITA? I look at what people are charging for an old South Bend and I just worry that the Grizzly is simply too good to be true. I hate dropping money on crappy tools.
 
#9
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

What about a Smitthy? They send me stuff all the time at my Bike shop. The 40" 220 Industral don't look bad and free shipping.
Scot
 
#11
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Smithy- I have used one of the small benchtop shop lathes, and to tell you the truth there just isnt enough power. We were able to get some of the parts we wanted made, but it was pretty frusterating have to take super small cuts and then it would even stop sometimes. I would get something bigger and more powerful.

CJG
 
#12
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I have gone and checked out every lathe large enough to smith with for a couple years and I have not found any of the older American stuff that is much more than scrap. Ya, you can find one that has a good head stock but the bed will be hosed, I'm not going to buy a lathe just to rebuild what I can and work with what I can't.
I was about to get a Grizzly 4003G but I found some good info on the Precision Matthews and I'll be ordering one of them instead, there is a few guys that have had both and the PM was there favorite after running both. It is cheaper but has an enclosed gear box in oil which I like and you can get it with the DRO ready to rock and roll. It has a brake but some don't use it, I need it and hate not having one on the current LeBlond that I'm using. Good luck!!
 
#13
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

i have built MANY rifles on my PM1236 and i cant imagine needing any better tolerances than this lathe will hold. however, the castings etc. will not be near as nice as an older U.S. machine. the suggestion of a taiwan made machine is a good one but they cost CONSIDERABLY more money. the grizzly or precision mathews will serve you well if you dont need the "prestige" of owning good old amerian iron. forget the smithy's. my buddy is a master machinist at a refinery and bought the BIG smithy mill/lathe and he thinks it is total junk. you can actually stop the chuck with your hand! he does like my PM1236. i would love to try the big grizzly gunsmith lathe but for now i am satisfied.

chuck
 
#14
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

To each their own. I prefer the old stuff for my gun hobby. I use a larger Taiwan lathe in my normal machining work. I learned on an old Southbend lathe plus my dad was a watchmaker that loved Southbend pocket watches. So, I like old Southbends. I bought my 10" from a friend at work for $600. I just bought a 13" from a local school auction for $450. Both are in good shape. Sometimes you just have to keep looking. Good deals can be found on older lathes that are in good shape. New lathes have their benifits but I will stick with my old American made lathes for my gun work.
 
#15
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I started out with a Smithy XL1220 almost 15 years ago. True it is light on power and small cuts are necessary. But I bought it as a learning tool since I was not a machinist. Several years later I installed a 3 axis DRO and never looked back. Built (rebarreled) several long guns with it and made lots of small no longer available parts.

3 years back, business really picked up and I bought the PM 1236 with the DRO installed. I love the machine. It has done everything I've needed. Documentation was a little weak but the machine and the service was outstanding.

Hope this helps.
 
#16
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Hmm, reading thru the G4003 manual, I don't see any apparent control to reverse the spindle direction (eg: cut left hand threads) Anyone know for sure if it can do this or not? That would be a deal breaker for me.
 
#17
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmm, reading thru the G4003 manual, I don't see any apparent control to reverse the spindle direction (eg: cut left hand threads) Anyone know for sure if it can do this or not? That would be a deal breaker for me.
</div></div>

Yes, that lathe will cut left hand threads. The spindle (G4003G) also has high quality Japanese bearings in it.
 
#20
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Thanks, always nice to get info straight from the horses' mouth.

Does it have, or is it an option to add, a carriage stop (preferably micrometer)?
 
#21
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I bought my 5th gunsmithing lathe last year, a PM1236 for $3k delivered from China.

For years I owned a minty South Bend shaper.
I know the deluxe quality feel and look of South Bend.

Here is a 6 page thread with pictures of a guy making a part for his South Bend Lathe.
Some of the processes are beyond my machinist skill level:
I don't do splines, but probably could with more tooling
I don't do CAD drawings
I don't do broaching, but probably could with more tooling
I don't do CNC

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/making-new-cross-slide-acme-screw-150571/
 
#22
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

There is no micrometer stop on that lathe although it would not be difficult to add one. There are several types of stops. There is one that is like a turret with "fingers" on it and that one needs to be fastened to the carraige with another sliding stop on the bed.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9733/images/1

The one I like is the one on the new South Bend lathes that slides along the bedway on one of the vees. You lock it down and then adjust the stop pin via the micrometer. Very smooth, simple, fast and easy. Picture on the link below.

http://images.southbendlathe.com/productphotos/lathes/14x40-Toolroom-Lathe/sb1037-detail-c.jpg
 
#23
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I have a micrometer stop as well. Used it for a bit. It has also become a dust collector as your attention is on the dial when moving right to left. If you do use one, let me know as I made a slick way to adjust it versus the allen wrench system of the original.
 
#25
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

For cutting left to right threads, it may be a must. Like I said, when you get one with your new lathe let me know. I basically took the allen bolts out, went to the hardware store and got matching bolts....say 1-1/2 long. Got matching nuts to fit. Screw the bolts with nuts attached and see where it bottoms out / tightens. Pull them back out, run the nuts close and epoxy them in place. What you end up with is a nut that tightens against the stop while maintaining a bolt head that extends below the stop. Works like a charm.
 
#26
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Here's a basic question for you:

Do all (most) lathe's use a standard dimension for the ways, such that the rests and something like that SB stop papgrizzly referenced could be swapped between manufacturers? Or do I need to pic a manufacturer and either use their accessories or build my own?
 
#28
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WVgunsmith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">South bend hands down. You wont find a better lathe. </div></div>


+1.......A Heavy 10 if you can find it.
 
#29
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Really? This is an actual debate? Why don't you just send your firearms to China. If we keep promoting the Chinese economy and depriving the American economy how long do you think our freedoms will stay in tact?

Be American, Buy American.

Sorry for the rant.
 
#30
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Really? This is an actual debate? Why don't you just send your firearms to China. If we keep promoting the Chinese economy and depriving the American economy how long do you think our freedoms will stay in tact?

Be American, Buy American.

Sorry for the rant. </div></div>

Would you be so kindle to put up a link to an American made lathe that will spec out the same for even double the money in a 12x36 size.
Most of the Chicom stuff I have I have because a similar American product was of poorer quality and way more expensive. I can't shell out 5 times as many dollars for a lesser product, that's bad economics.
This is were this alway ends up, I'm un American for not buying a 50 year old wore out piece of junk that does not meet my specs.
 
#31
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

The Chinese lathes are made in Taiwan, which last time I checked, was a US ally.

Some of the Grizzly lathes can use a collet attachment. However, I just bought a Bison 5C collet chuck, which will serve my needs just fine. It will be handy for pillars, muzzle brakes, and other tasks.

I couldn't afford a US made lathe, so I guess I am a bad American. I do own two Fords though (no bailout).
wink.gif
 
#32
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

+1 for south bend. I know people who run them. You can find parts easy enough. I personally use a 1944 atlas/craftsman 4jaw. The old stuff is over engineered and meant to be run all day with little maintenance. Just because they look rough doesnt mean they cant keep up. Mine works harder than me. I can turn barrels up to 30 inch. Not the fastest lathe but it holds true and has turned out some nice work. It was my great grandads and its cool to use his old tools. mscdirect.com has a lot of bits and raw materials to choose from. Also get an american made live center from them. I have a 4jaw chuck and cut a morse taper on the inside of it to accept a dead center. This way i just put the barrel between centers and run. As long as you have a good dial indicator, live center, dead center and a good chuck for your tail stock you wont need much else. Also marvel mystery oil makes a good cutting fluid and you can get it at wal-mart. If your true intention is gunsmith stuff then you dont need DRO or left hand rotation. I've never seen left hand threads on any firearm that was worth working on.
 
#33
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm in the early stages of planning to satisfy my craving for a lathe of my own, to be used primarily for gunsmithing hobby. I'm torn between getting a new chinese model like the 4003G Grizzly with all the neato up-to-date features like gearbox speed selection, DRO's, water jet, et al or place my faith in the old world craftsmanship of something like a South Bend 10x28.

Anyone here used a 4003G and have a comment on how satisfied I'm going to be with the long term quality of a somewhat low-end chinese lathe? </div></div>

If it were me: (salt shaker standing by)

I would skip both and go with a Hardinge tool room lathe.

16129.jpg


Specifically, something like this:

Ebay auction; Hardinge lathe

I've used one of these very machines for threading and chambering before. If it wasn't for the CNC turning centers I now own, it would be my 1st choice.

Reasons:

Variable speed spindle. Dial it and your there, no gear changes, no transmissions. Very simple/elegant to operate.

Hardinge spindles are as tight as they come. Great machines.

Force multiplier. You can go from a chuck to a 5C collet in about two minutes. That means screws, estucheons, brakes, etc all become easy to make/alter/tune with one machine.

Threading; The rapid pull out feature on the compound is the coolest feature to ever be offered on a manual lathe. Dive right in at 1200 RPM (where carbide loves to run) and be able to cut threads like a CNC with a weekend of practice. No half nuts to time, you bang her into gear and snatch the tool out and bang into reverse at the same time. It's that simple.

The bore of the spindle WILL fit a 1.25" cylinder barrel. You just use the 4 jaw and a spider and your dialed. The cylinder portion will be out of the bore and in the chuck so you won't have any issues. Short barrels, long barrels, doesn't matter.

I did all the barreling for Nesika using one of these for about the first 8 months till the Harrison showed up.

Great machines!

Good luck.

C
 
#36
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

If you go the hardinge route do not discount Feeler brand lathes (hardinge copy from Tiawan). Many people often ASK big money for wore out hardinges but Feelers do not have the cult status and sometimes go for pennies on the dollar....
 
#37
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there any ability to use collets in the Grizzly</div></div>

You can buy an aftermarket 5-C Collet chuck like another poster mentioned. They work really well. Usually can get them either with a straight D1-5 or attach to a camlock backplate.
 
#39
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

The Hardinge lathes are also easily rebuild-able.. the beds come off and can be reground or replaced easy.

Over the years I have threaded hundreds of thousands of parts on them over a long boring career,lol. They are fast and easy to use. They can be limited in power for larger stuff but for barrel threading and chambering they are good.. they use AXA size aloris toolposts, and this is the biggest downside as they are pretty small. But most barrel work is pretty small anyhow.

I have a nice Nardini, and it will do anything I want it to do..Wouldn't buy anything else at this point for the work I do ;_)
 
#40
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagrizzly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SnkBit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Be American, Buy American.

</div></div>

Look under the keyboard you typed that message on! </div></div>

Unfortunately there are a few areas where our options are extremely limited. My computer was made in the USA. Unfortunately it was done by using foreign components.
 
#41
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CDiPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Hardinge lathes are also easily rebuild-able.. the beds come off and can be reground or replaced easy.

Over the years I have threaded hundreds of thousands of parts on them over a long boring career,lol. They are fast and easy to use. They can be limited in power for larger stuff but for barrel threading and chambering they are good.. they use AXA size aloris toolposts, and this is the biggest downside as they are pretty small. But most barrel work is pretty small anyhow.

I have a nice Nardini, and it will do anything I want it to do..Wouldn't buy anything else at this point for the work I do ;_) </div></div>
Jeff
You are a metal machining wizard. If that's boring to you just give me those machines ! :))
 
#42
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I bought the exact lathe your asking about 3 weeks ago in Muncy, Pa. I've done 2 barrels and actions on it, so far I only have one complant. When checking tail stock aligment I found the tail to be .003 high and can't find a way to lower it. Now all that said I am comparing it to a Smithy 1220XL and a wore out Atlas.
 
#43
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ARShuter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I bought the exact lathe your asking about 3 weeks ago in Muncy, Pa. I've done 2 barrels and actions on it, so far I only have one complant. When checking tail stock aligment I found the tail to be .003 high and can't find a way to lower it. Now all that said I am comparing it to a Smithy 1220XL and a wore out Atlas. </div></div>

Thank you for your purchase.

Every lathe on the market has the tailstock made a little higher, just a few thou, so over time, as the bottom of the tailstock wears from sliding the tailstock back and forth on the bed, there is "room" to remain closer to the headstock center height. Most beds are hardened, so they generally do not wear, or wear as fast as the bottom of the tailstock.

Having said that, we pay special attention to the gunsmith lathes and try to keep them very tight. Under .004" with an average of .0024" higher at the tailstock center to the headstock center. You are right there.

How did your barrels turn out?
 
#44
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Oh, and another thing about tailstock heights that many people don't know about:

When you lock down the tailstock, that height will change depending on the pressure of the handle. That is why the Grizzly gunsmith lathes (G4003G and the G0509G) come with a removable handle that leaves a 1/2" drive hole for a torque wrench.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G4003G/images/2

If you have watched Gordy Gritters in the Chambering video, you will see that he sets the tailstock tension to the same weight on the torque wrench, so it "cracks" when he reaches that weight. This way he gets the same tension every time as he goes back and forth while chambering and gets total consistency. Gordy is a renowned benchrest (long range) gunsmith and chambers all my guns.
 
#46
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I got a Hardinge for 3500 that just needed paint. Look around and you can find one, especially if you aren't on the west like i am. The difference between a hardinge and a Chinese built lathe is the difference between a Lamborghini and a mac truck. I have ran both, built guns on both and nothing comes close.
 
#47
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Find a Southbend with a cam loc spindle.
It should have flame hardened bed ways as these were made in the early 80's before Southbend closed up.

The older ones are ok but most have radius measurement dials. Not diameter.

There are good points on all the ones listed. If you go China Town, I think the Grizzly may be the best choice.
 
#49
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

I have been using a Hardinge toolroom lathe to do my barrel work. With the special chuck I made for the spindle nose I can do barrels as short as 20 inches. Hardinge lathes have awesome spindles and bearings. The whole machine is a work of art and a joy to run.
The question is, buy a new import or buy a used American made lathe. It has been a long time since a small lathe has been made in the USA. Most of the US made lathes have a lot of wear on them, most are wore out. If you can find a good US lathe that is not wore out, that’s what I would do. You may look a very long time for a good lathe. Some of the imports are decent machines. If they were being used 8 hours per day in a production machine shop, my guess is they would not live a long life. I think the materials they are made from is the biggest issue. If you are doing 2 or 3 barrels per week, I think the import lathes would last a very long time. Very little material is being removed when doing barrel work.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Buy American if you can</span>, but sadly that is not always possible anymore.
<span style="color: #FF0000"> </span>
 
#50
Re: New Chinese lathe or old south bend?

Stay away from the Chinese machine tools if at all possible. They are plain shit. Just like everything else they export.. They have issues with consistent quality, one may work acceptable and the next one will be a dump.

There is unfortunately alot of older US machine tools floating around from all the shops closing. Check for used machine tool dealers in your area. You do need to know what you are looking for and how to inspect a machine tool if you are going to buy one used.

The difference is everything from quality of the castings in the base and turrets, the motors, bearings, material used for the box ways and on and on..Its a big list..
Look for an older Hardinge, South Bend or Cincinnati.
They may require a little more effort to clean up, but you can readily get parts for them and once you are set up you will be rewarded with better finishes, tighter tolerance holding abilities and repeatability that the Chinese shit will never be able to give you. There are few Japanese companies that are worth looking at: Mori-Seiki, Nakamura Tome. They build quality machine tools.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Glassaholic
Rifle Scopes Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 Review and comparison with NF ATACR 4-16x42, S&B US 3-20x50 and March 4.5-28x52
Replies
139
Views
20K
Denys
Denys
Glassaholic
Rifle Scopes March FFP 1.5-15x42 MPVO Review and Comparison (w/ Nightforce and Athlon)
Replies
247
Views
33K
Meir Sigal
Meir Sigal
birddogsx3
Gunsmithing Reamer Holder (Copy)
Replies
0
Views
2K
birddogsx3
birddogsx3
C
Gunsmithing New Grizzly G0670 Lathe
Replies
26
Views
4K
acmech
A
ken226
Gunsmithing Time to upgrade my lathe. Updated with pics!!
Replies
35
Views
9K
300sniper
300sniper
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts