Rifle Scopes New High End Tactical article

[koshkin]

As I have mentioned in the past, I am kicking off a new High End Tactical article as scopes I need for that are trickling in. The scope of what I am going to do with it changed a little, so here is the jist of it.

56mm scopes:
I have a Tangent Theta TT525P with Gen 3 XR reticle on hand.
Same for the S&B PMII 5-25x56 with GR2ID reticle.
I will borrow Minox ZP5 from a friend (a forum member here; he can identify himself if he wants).
ZCO 5-27x56 is heading this way from Jeff Huber.

50mm scopes:
I have a Tangent Theta TT315M with Gen 2XR reticle on hand
Same for the Vortex Razor AMG 6-24x50
I will borrow ZCO 4-20x50 from a friend here locally for an optics comparison
Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 will be here at the same time, so I will add it to the comparison. It is a lot less expensive, so I mostly want to see how it compares to the fancy stuff. No specific expectations there.


Steiner M7Xi seems to be really scarce. It is not clear if I will be able to get my hands on one in time. I talked to the folks at Burris/Steiner this morning and they are trying to locate one. I may have to look at this one separately later on if they can't.

Kahles K525 will probably not be in the mix unless someone here is willing to loan me one for a little bit. I sent a couple of e-mails to SONA with fairly predictable results: deafening silence.

I have looked at K318i fairly thoroughly, so I will be able to ascertain how it stacks up.

Same for Nightforce. 7-35 ATACR would be right at home in this line-up, but I do not have one and they are not in any rush to respond to me. Basically, once Sean Murphy got reassigned to a different job, Nightforce stopped talking to me entirely.

I asked Leupold to borrow the new 7-35x56 a couple of times, but never got a response. The same guy used to be pretty responsive in the past, so I am not sure what gives. I'll give it one more shot and then give up.

As is I have enough scopes here to keep me busy, and I do not like to chase after people anyway.

ILya

 

[spife7980]

Its those companies loss to not be included in one of your articles.
Makes me think they are scared or have something to hide even if they actually dont.

 

[koshkin]

Its those companies loss to not be included in one of your articles.
Makes me think they are scared or have something to hide even if they actually dont.

That is one possibility. Another is that the people there may simply dislike me. I am an opinionated jackass and I do not even attempt to hide it.

Or, it could be as simple as I am not a big enough fish for them to care.

ILya

 

[5RWill]

Well i'm too curious and want to have a definitive educated opinion on the K525i along with the rest so as i mentioned last time i'll send it your way. I have some backup rifles and the amg arriving soon so it's not like i'll be without if a match comes up.

 

[CBDR]

Look fwd 2 ur review.

 

[Eoddave27]

Do you have any plans to look at the new Tract Toric with the PRS reticle? I realize it isn’t really in the same price range as the other optics you are comparing but will probably be on par with the XTRiii. It would be a little out of its league in this comparison but I would really like to hear your thoughts on how it compares with other optics in its class.

 

[Whistlepigs]

Really looking forward to see how the AMG holds up to the ZCO. One of those are in my future soon, just curious if the ZCO is worth the extra money.

 

[srt-4_uk]

When were you planning on doing this? I have a M7Xi that I dont have sighted in yet.

 

[koshkin]

When were you planning on doing this? I have a M7Xi that I dont have sighted in yet.

I am kicking this off in about a week or so.

ILya

 

[Burdy]

I could attempt to help with the powers that be at Kahles and NF, but one week might be a little short.

 

[ldunnmobile]

Someone get this man a M7xi

 

[koshkin]

I could attempt to help with the powers that be at Kahles and NF, but one week might be a little short.

The test will go on for a couple of months, but I really need to have everything here in June, since some of the stuff that is a short term loan needs to start going back around the end of June.

Ilya

 

[YF12A]

This is a report I am really looking forward to see the results of, many thanks Ilya for your time, Fred.

 

[koshkin]

Leupold folks reached out, so we'll see if they have a 7-35x to loan me.

K525 will come 5RWill (a few posts above).

We'll see if Burdy can pull any strings with Nightforce.

ILya

 

[Burdy]

Leupold folks reached out, so we'll see if they have a 7-35x to loan me.

K525 will come 5RWill (a few posts above).

We'll see if Burdy can pull any strings with Nightforce.

ILya

Ok, will give them a buzz in the morning and advise.

 

[Moose]

Ilya thanks again for taking the time to test these optics.I took your advise on the TT315M last year and have been very happy with it.

 

[seansmd]

Someone get this man a M7xi

@jwknutson17 do you still have the second M7xi you had with the AI you were selling?

 

[MOUNTIC]

@jwknutson17 do you still have the second M7xi you had with the AI you were selling?

Negative. Thinned about a ton of stuff and bunch of scopes/rifles hit the chopping block.

 

[CBDR]

Ilya thanks again for taking the time to test these optics.I took your advise on the TT315M last year and have been very happy with it.

TT315M is a solid performer.

 

[patriot07]

This is gonna be really informative. Looking forward to it.

 

[Burdy]

Leupold folks reached out, so we'll see if they have a 7-35x to loan me.

K525 will come 5RWill (a few posts above).

We'll see if Burdy can pull any strings with Nightforce.

ILya

I reached out this morning and got VM, might be because of the holiday weekend but will advise. I also reached out to EOTech to about a Vudu 5-25 MD3, will advise on that as well.

 

[koshkin]

I reached out this morning and got VM, might be because of the holiday weekend but will advise. I also reached out to EOTech to about a Vudu 5-25 MD3, will advise on that as well.

Thanks, Burdy. I had a nice conversation with EOTech at SHOT, but when I reached out a couple of times after that, I never got a reply. I generally try to not harass people unnecessarily, so if I do not gt a reply a couple of times, I move on.

ILya

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@koshkin

Have you thought about going to one of the optics vendors here on the hide and see if they will loan you a batch of their demos from the various manufacturers they carry?

That would be a way to bypass the "Non Disclosure" of negative results that some manufacturers make T&E companies sign

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[BurnOut]

I'm really looking forward to seeing the resulting article on this as well, especially in regard to how the TT 5-25x56 fares. As I recall, it was somewhat of a standout in the last high end article; it'll be interesting to see if they've yet been caught/passed.

What I suspect is that it'll be right there at the top, perhaps edged out for 1st place (but perhaps not), but with a couple of others so close as to be effectively interchangeable... at a noticeably lower price.

I have come to realize that a lot of the innovation that we're seeing in the firearms/optics world these days is in regard to what is effectively the democratization of quality/features that were once exclusive to products at the veeeeeeery top of their respective markets. In other words, the $2k optic of today is in many ways the effective peer of the $4k optic of yesteryear... but due to the price point, is accessible to a larger chunk of the market.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Theis, I would guess some of the non-responses are due to Koshkin not signing any manner of "non disclosure of negative results." If you are signing that, Mr. Koshkin, I'd like to know, as would most, probably.

 

[koshkin]

Theis, I would guess some of the non-responses are due to Koshkin not signing any manner of "non disclosure of negative results." If you are signing that, Mr. Koshkin, I'd like to know, as would most, probably.

Correct. I've never signed any NDA pertaining to me testing riflescopes.

I flat out tell them that everything I find gets published. The only courtesy I am willing to extend is that before I publish anything, I will give them an advance notice of what I find. If they want to offer a rebuttal of some sort, I am happy to include it in my write up.

If they do not want to have anything to do with me, I totally understand and there are no hard feelings. Of course, I reserve the right to procure a product that interests me through other means if I am so inclined. If I do that, they do not get an advance notice of any sort.

ILya

 

[Moose]

Thank you for your honest reviews of these optics.High end optics are a big investment for shooters and nothing sucks more then paying hard earned cash and being disappointed in the scope. God Bless

 

[CBDR]

MR. Darklordofoptics you sir are what this country needs more of.
Recommend Attorney General Barr bring you into the mix.
You call it like you see it.
Happy Memorial Day

 

[scharfschutze762]

Koshkin may I ask what you do that makes you an SME on tactical optics?

 

[koshkin]

The S&B 5-25 has been reviewed to to point of ad nauseum. Its an old scope by design and being phased out by most units, perhaps a newer scope would be more fair like 3-27 .

I wanted to test GR2ID reticle.

When looking at scopes in this price range it is seldom a matter of which is better, but rather which is better for what use.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Koshkin may I ask what you do that makes you an SME on tactical optics?

Mostly, the fact that I have seen a lot of them.

My biography is on my website. In a nutshell, I am an optical physicist by education and for my dayjob, I work for a company that makes optical test equipment. Technically, my field of expertise is with generalized targeting and imaging systems and their performance metrics, but I am involved in some way with nearly every aspect of electro-optics since the equipment we make supports just about every type of electro-optical instrument. In the past, I have worked with movie cameras, satellite imagers, astronomy arrays, lasers, etc.

I got into shooting twenty some years ago and when I looked for some information on riflescopes, I found such and incredible amount of BS out there that I started evaluating them. It kinda continued from there.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Hi,

@koshkin

Have you thought about going to one of the optics vendors here on the hide and see if they will loan you a batch of their demos from the various manufacturers they carry?

That would be a way to bypass the "Non Disclosure" of negative results that some manufacturers make T&E companies sign

Sincerely,
Theis

I've asked for help from vendors in the past, but given a choice I try to not do that. If they send me a riflescope, they can no longer sell it as new when I return it. That hits their pocket directlym so I do not like to abuse that. Manufacturers usually have some loaners floating around.

As I mentioned before, I do not evaluate scopes under an NDA. If a manufacturer wants me to evaluate a product under an NDA, that is no longer journalism, that is consulting.

ILya

 

[blbennett1288]

Pretty pumped for this high end review.

I really would like to see a Minox ZP5 compared to the scopes you will be reviewing.

 

[shields shtr]

Looking forward to this as well. I am debating on waiting for the new XTR3 or just saying hell with it and going with the ZCO.

 

[Moose]

If you got the cash get the ZCO,It is as sweet as it gets.I been shooting my 4X20 for a couple of weeks and just love it.I might pic up a XTR3 for a long range rimfire build.

 

[kujuak]

All ears, look forward to learning something!

 

[Birddog6424]

Can't wait to see this!

 

[koshkin]

Pretty pumped for this high end review.

I really would like to see a Minox ZP5 compared to the scopes you will be reviewing.

A friend of mine volunteered to loan me his ZP5 for this, so I will look at it. I probably won't do a tracking test with it since that is a scope he uses, so he verified it tracks, but I will do a careful optical evaluation.

ILya

 

[Carlos0311B4]

Looking forward to this.??

 

[Rekkr870]

I'm interested to see how the ZCO and AMG compare. 4x erector vs 5x erector and 36mm vs 30mm tube will be interesting. My AMG sample has impressed me against some very high end optics.

 

[koshkin]

It looks like thanks to Mr Burdy, I will get a loaner ATACR 7-35x with Mil-XT reticle to add to this comparison.

I'll be pretty freaking busy with this for some time. I'll try to post videos of my progress as I go along.

ILya

 

[47guy]

Tag...Very interested to see/hear results of this.

 

[clubsportmark]

Watching

Is this weeks or months away just out of interest?

 

[koshkin]

Watching

Is this weeks or months away just out of interest?

Couple months before I am done probably, but I will be able to field questions prior to that.

Ilya

 

[Safety_3rd]

Stoked to see this... I vote you take some time off work and knock this out . Priorities

 

[koshkin]

Stoked to see this... I vote you take some time off work and knock this out . Priorities

Please forward me your address, so I know where to send the invoice for lost wages and for my boss's medical bills. If I vanish for a couple of months he will have a heart attack.

ILya

 

[Kane0519]

I greatly enjoy your reviews & look forward to this one.
Is it worth throwing the Vortex Razor 4.7-27 in just because it’s so common it can act as a reference point?

 

[koshkin]

I greatly enjoy your reviews & look forward to this one.
Is it worth throwing the Vortex Razor 4.7-27 in just because it’s so common it can act as a reference point?

I am really well familiar with the Gen 2 and have compared it to a good range of scopes I have on hand. I'll be able to draw comparisons to it if needed.

ILya

 

[DarinC]

Tagging in. This will be really interesting. I would like to see the bushnell xrs2 in there, but beggars can’t be choosers, not sure how it would compete with the rest of the field, those are nearly all dream optics for most of us onlookers

 

[beetroot]

Looking forward to this review.
If you could perhaps post something about the Burris XTR3 before the final review that would be great, anxiously waiting to see some reviews!

Further to that, would love to see a new mid range tactical article, with the Razor price drop the MK5hd and imminent NX8 and XTR3 competition in the $1500-$2000 price bracket is really heating up.