Hunting & Fishing New Hunting Bullets Available

[bohem]

Hunters,

Folks on here are pretty familiar with the bullets that I've designed and was recently awarded no less than 4 utility patents for them. There are a bunch of ELR records, Cold Bore World Records, etc set with my designs. At the request of many there are now hunting designs directly available through me as well as some new match designs that were tailored to be more friendly at the reloading bench.

We have the Cayuga Copper hunting bullets designed for normal twists and normal chambers. They exhibit extremely sleek form factors and machined geometry for the best available consistency of a hunting bullet on the market. I have elected NOT to use multipiece designs to maintain the best possible repeatability on game.

There are options from 22 caliber through 30 caliber currently with more work being done on 338's and some big bore stuff that the smokeless front stuffers will probably enjoy.

The bullets HAVE been tested on game, specifically Elk. The illustrious @coldboremiracle was kind enough to assist by putting the bullets to work this past season and had several successful hunts. The bullets are low form factor, high BC, low weight. This means that the maximum energy downrange is retained because even though they're lighter they are also extremely fast and retain that speed due to the high BC.

CBM saw complete passthrough shots with massive internal damage and completely broken skeletal structure at the terminal end. I performed 10% gel testing with a 6.5 creedmoor and got point blank results of >26" of penetration, full tumbling, large wound channels and weight retention over 90%. CBM got excellent expansion, massive internal trauma and penetration through heavy bone at 500+ years with a 6.5 Creedmoor in elk.

The 22's and 6's are screaming flat for the beanfield guys, 6.5's through 30's come in several flavors for the heavy hitters and the extended performance of the venerable 308 and 3006 hunting rifles is vastly improved with these bullets due to additional BC and speed.

Anyway, enough yacking, here's some pictures and a link to check them out. Everything listed on the website is in stock and we're making more every day. Dealers are welcome, please contact me directly.

All Rifle Bullets - "Cayuga" Hunting Projectiles - Patriot Valley Arms

patriotvalleyarms.com

Here's the link to CBM's article on his hunts with the new bullets, it is definitely worth the read!

PVA Cayuga Solid Copper Hunting Bullets

cayuga solid copper hunting bullets are manufactured by patriot valley arms, and bring match grade performance to hunting

coldboremiracle.com

As I know folks will ask: Warners are still turning out the extreme BC match solids for the Ko2M and other ELR type calibers. They are super people to work with and you can still get the Flatlines through them. I'm working on some additional match bullet designs that are not quite the bleeding edge performance but the forgiveability in loading is much increased. Those new match designs are available through us directly as well.

 

[WB300]

Good timing. I'm actually looking for a mono 7mm bullet for a .280ai and 30 cal 300WM for Elk hunting.

Do they have a minimum velocity needed for expansion?

 

[bohem]

Good timing. I'm actually looking for a mono 7mm bullet for a .280ai and 30 cal 300WM for Elk hunting.

Do they have a minimum velocity needed for expansion?

I've shot them into gel at point blank to do breakup and weight retention tests. The 6.5mm maintained over 90% of the weight it started with.

@coldboremiracle 's impact tests on animals looks like they hit going about 1800fps give or take from what I know about the shot. They opened up well and penetrated a lot of tissue and bone.

They don't petal out to 2x or 3x the size at low velocities, if they did they would explode on contact at shorter ranges. They are designed to be shot into heavy structure on big deer species and other big, strong game. Anchoring the animal with 2 broken shoulders is possible with this bullet family from point blank to past 1000yd, the goal being to hit bones and spall out the soft tissue between the heavy bone.

 

[TxWelder35]

So I know nothing about solids. Been looking at doing a 143 eldx for my hunting loads. What do these solids do better than a traditional bullet like that besides a higher BC in a lighter bullet? Launching these at a little over 2900 sounds interesting in my 260

 

[SSzelong]

So I know nothing about solids. Been looking at doing a 143 eldx for my hunting loads. What do these solids do better than a traditional bullet like that besides a higher BC in a lighter bullet? Launching these at a little over 2900 sounds interesting in my 260

Weight retention and penetration, high BC’s with less grain bullet so you are gaining velocity and having less recoil (that’s a subjective statement on recoil, but someone could run the numbers). I don’t reload so I can’t speak on that end. As stated above, they are solid so at any close range they hold together and should overall have more reliable expansion. Determine how far you will ethically take a shot and run the numbers for velocity. I believe 1800 is a fair estimate of reliable expansion from what I remember reading on the Barnes or another companies mono bullets. Also if you hunt in CA you’re good to go!

 

[zeroz]

They hold together and don't spew lead into your meat. I don't know about the eld-x but the SST loved to fall apart and waste meat due to lead infusion. Have yet to recover a copper bullet.

 

[bohem]

So I know nothing about solids. Been looking at doing a 143 eldx for my hunting loads. What do these solids do better than a traditional bullet like that besides a higher BC in a lighter bullet? Launching these at a little over 2900 sounds interesting in my 260

Others covered most of this above but another advantage is high speed. The 6.5 Creed load that CBM used was slow because that's what I had given him as a test load. I knew it shot well in my rifle and we had only a few bullets available to get the job done and no time to do load development.

In the mean time I've been using IMR4166 and VArget instead of H4350 and getting much better speeds

The H4350 load tested at only 38.5ksi in a pressure test barrel in a lab, with Varget we got that up a lot closer to 60 ksi and the performance difference was appropriate. I'm getting nearly 3150 from my 6.5 Creed now instead of lower 2800's

 

[BEJ762]

Weight retention and penetration, high BC’s with less grain bullet so you are gaining velocity and having less recoil (that’s a subjective statement on recoil, but someone could run the numbers). I don’t reload so I can’t speak on that end. As stated above, they are solid so at any close range they hold together and should overall have more reliable expansion. Determine how far you will ethically take a shot and run the numbers for velocity. I believe 1800 is a fair estimate of reliable expansion from what I remember reading on the Barnes or another companies mono bullets. Also if you hunt in CA you’re good to go!

You are incorrect and one is not good to go if they hunt in CA. You have to use lead free projectiles that are certified by the CA department of Fish and Wildlife and listed on their website. These are not currently certified and listed.

As an unfortunate CA resident, I would love to be able to use these for hunting but until PVA goes thru this process its not worth the risk of getting caught. I hope they decide to do this.

 

[SSzelong]

You are incorrect and one is not good to go if they hunt in CA. You have to use lead free projectiles that are certified by the CA department of Fish and Wildlife and listed on their website. These are not currently certified and listed.

As an unfortunate CA resident, I would love to be able to use these for hunting but until PVA goes thru this process its not worth the risk of getting caught. I hope they decide to do this.

Well I stand corrected then. I knew they needed to be lead free, but wasn’t aware of the certification needs. Thanks for the heads up! The OP might be able to say if they are going to attempt that process in the future

 

[Butler12]

Hi Josh,
Super job you are doing getting these to market.
Just wondering if you are considering expanding out to 7mm as well .
I to am interested in your solid match bullets do you have any 22 cal coming to market and is there a chance we might see 257 and 7mm match bullets designs in the future.
Now I just have to rethink some barrel purchases in regard to twist rates.
How much better do think the match bullets would shoot in going super fast on twist rate.
ie maybe a 6 twist 30 cal for your 241 .
Thanks again for getting these to market I hope you sell heaps for making this available to us ballistic junkies.

 

[jda2631]

Are there any gel test videos anywhere for these? Would love to see how they expand. The BC's are pretty crazy for solids. The 170gr 7mm is calling my name with the .375 G7

 

[bohem]

You are incorrect and one is not good to go if they hunt in CA. You have to use lead free projectiles that are certified by the CA department of Fish and Wildlife and listed on their website. These are not currently certified and listed.

As an unfortunate CA resident, I would love to be able to use these for hunting but until PVA goes thru this process its not worth the risk of getting caught. I hope they decide to do this.

@BJE762 I started this process and applied for the bullets to be reviewed by CA F&G in January. Unfortunately with this virus going around I have no idea how long it is going to take to get approval though. The application was submitted before SHOT show. (ETA: I just looked it up and the application was submitted at 0922hr EST on 03 Jan 2020).

If you know anyone who might be able to help it along, please let me know. I am very interested in getting these cleared for use in Cali.

Hi Josh,
Super job you are doing getting these to market.
Just wondering if you are considering expanding out to 7mm as well .
I to am interested in your solid match bullets do you have any 22 cal coming to market and is there a chance we might see 257 and 7mm match bullets designs in the future.
Now I just have to rethink some barrel purchases in regard to twist rates.
How much better do think the match bullets would shoot in going super fast on twist rate.
ie maybe a 6 twist 30 cal for your 241 .
Thanks again for getting these to market I hope you sell heaps for making this available to us ballistic junkies.

The 241 was designed for "all condition stable" in a 7 twist. It might actually go heavier in higher altitudes but with 240 grains already I just stopped pushing the design figuring whatever small bits we might gain on BC we're going to trade out on speed. It ought to be a while before Hornady figures out how to make an Atip with a BC over 1.1 though... maybe when we start shooting 325 grain 30 cals from a necked down Cheytac case and going 3000fps?

I've only got 7 twist barrels here, never tried going any faster than that for a 30 cal. I can tell you that a 300WSM with a 241 loaded to mag length in an AICS long action 338 mag it feeds as a repeater and it hits like a lightning bolt at 1200 yards.

We have some 7mm hunting designs already on the website and I've got 2 7mm match designs up my sleeves so far: a 9 and an 8 twist

I have an 8 twist 25 cal 115gr solid that @coldboremiracle tested which was running about neck and neck to a 131 for BC but he was running them over 3200 from his 25 Creed. I also have a 7 twist design that has yet to be tested, it's a 130 class and should be about 14-17% more BC than the 115

I stock blanks for fast twist stuff here, shoot me a PM and I'll let yo uknow what we have on hand.

Are there any gel test videos anywhere for these? Would love to see how they expand. The BC's are pretty crazy for solids. The 170gr 7mm is calling my name with the .375 G7

I have to see if I can find a cell phone pic of the 6.5 test in gel. These were not designed to behave properly if somone gut shoots a deer. They were designed for guys to get the heavy game heavy bone, deep penetration sought after by magnum rifle users taking things like elk, bear, moose, 'bou, etc. They break bones, spall the internals from ballistic fragments of bone and go through both front shoulders to anchor the animal.

In those conditions they mash up, tumble (based on the gel trace) and leave large holes in the shoulder blades of elk.

 

[BEJ762]

Josh,

This is great to hear and thank you for the update. Unfortunately, no connections on my end. Can't wait to give these a go once approved!

 

[Bandit31]

I got the 6.5 Cayuga’s here the other day to play with in a creedmoor Josh spun up for me awhile back and some of the 77gr to play with once I hash out what I’m going to run them in.

I have plenty of time on my hands so I’m going to try and work up a load in hopes they get approved for use this year in CA.

 

[bohem]

Josh,

This is great to hear and thank you for the update. Unfortunately, no connections on my end. Can't wait to give these a go once approved!

I got the 6.5 Cayuga’s here the other day to play with in a creedmoor Josh spun up for me awhile back and some of the 77gr to play with once I hash out what I’m going to run them in.

I have plenty of time on my hands so I’m going to try and work up a load in hopes they get approved for use this year in CA.

@Bandit31 & @BEJ762 I sent a request for status update to the CA F&G after this discussion reminded me.
A lady replied that the application had been misplaced, asked me to resend to her directly and she would be reviewing and processing it personally right away. So I am optimistic that the bullets will be approved for use in CA very shortly.

 

[Bandit31]

@Bandit31 & @BEJ762 I sent a request for status update to the CA F&G after this discussion reminded me.
A lady replied that the application had been misplaced, asked me to resend to her directly and she would be reviewing and processing it personally right away. So I am optimistic that the bullets will be approved for use in CA very shortly.

Thanks Josh, hoping for a good outcome.

 

[Bangin]

Just ordered the 7mm 170s

 

[S3th]

Excellent! I'll have to try some 6.5 and 7mms.

 

[GMZ]

Others covered most of this above but another advantage is high speed. The 6.5 Creed load that CBM used was slow because that's what I had given him as a test load. I knew it shot well in my rifle and we had only a few bullets available to get the job done and no time to do load development.

In the mean time I've been using IMR4166 and VArget instead of H4350 and getting much better speeds

The H4350 load tested at only 38.5ksi in a pressure test barrel in a lab, with Varget we got that up a lot closer to 60 ksi and the performance difference was appropriate. I'm getting nearly 3150 from my 6.5 Creed now instead of lower 2800's

Was going to ask about shooting these at 6.5 SAUM velocities but if you can get them up to 3150 in a Creed with Varget that kinda makes the SAUM...redundant.

Can you give what case and powder charge range you used?

 

[bohem]

Was going to ask about shooting these at 6.5 SAUM velocities but if you can get them up to 3150 in a Creed with Varget that kinda makes the SAUM...redundant.

Can you give what case and powder charge range you used?

Liability insurance carrier says absolutely not.

However, this load was given to me by a friend & customer who is shooting them. This is his load for them in a 65 Cteed I built in 2014 and it has about 3000rd downrange. @SPAK

2.810 coal
41.4 Varget
Peterson brass
Dont know his primer

He sent it along with a picture of a 10rd group that was under 1/2moa

 

[SPAK]

Liability insurance carrier says absolutely not.

However, this load was given to me by a friend & customer who is shooting them. This is his load for them in a 65 Cteed I built in 2014 and it has about 3000rd downrange. @SPAK

2.810 coal
41.4 Varget
Peterson brass
Dont know his primer

He sent it along with a picture of a 10rd group that was under 1/2moa

primer is cci 200

I can also say this load wasn’t even fine tuned yet. I literally took a WAG and threw it together. I was super impressed right off the bat.

I am about to try them out in my 6.5 saum in the next week or so and see what kind of Accuracy velocities I can get. If it’s anything like the creedmoor and around 3300fps it’ll be my sheep/mountain goat load....

I just finished the first 30 rounds out of my 7 twist 300 wsm that Josh chambered up as well with the 198 gr Seneca’s. Right off the bat sub 1/2 moa for two three round groups going just shy 3000 fps. I anticipate speed will be right around 3030-3050fps once the barrel breaks in. These things are hammers!!! Waiting for the long range spots to clear up so I can try them at distance.

 

[S3th]

Do you know the minimum recommended FPS?

 

[bohem]

Do you know the minimum recommended FPS?

As stated above, we have gotten excellent performance down as far as 1750fps thus far. I have limited animal testing due to the restrictions on going out to shoot large game, gel testing seems to suggest that 1600-1700fps is a good spot still.

 

[GMZ]

primer is cci 200

I can also say this load wasn’t even fine tuned yet. I literally took a WAG and threw it together. I was super impressed right off the bat.

I am about to try them out in my 6.5 saum in the next week or so and see what kind of Accuracy velocities I can get. If it’s anything like the creedmoor and around 3300fps it’ll be my sheep/mountain goat load....

I just finished the first 30 rounds out of my 7 twist 300 wsm that Josh chambered up as well with the 198 gr Seneca’s. Right off the bat sub 1/2 moa for two three round groups going just shy 3000 fps. I anticipate speed will be right around 3030-3050fps once the barrel breaks in. These things are hammers!!! Waiting for the long range spots to clear up so I can try them at distance.

Thanks for posting I have both a CM and a SAUM and was wondering if the SAUM would be that much better if 3000 from a CM is possible.

 

[SPAK]

Thanks for posting I have both a CM and a SAUM and was wondering if the SAUM would be that much better if 3000 from a CM is possible.

I’m pushing 140s 3050fps from the Saum right now, and I think most guys are getting around 3200fps with 130gr Bullets. I anticipate 3300-3400fps with the 122s but we’ll see.

 

[bohem]

Thanks for posting I have both a CM and a SAUM and was wondering if the SAUM would be that much better if 3000 from a CM is possible.

A customer sent me a note via instagram that his 6.5 PRC is running them almost 3500

 

[Bandit31]

A customer sent me a note via instagram that his 6.5 PRC is running them almost 3500

Damn, that makes me almost not want to give up on the 6.5 saum and just re-barrel.

 

[bohem]

Damn, that makes me almost not want to give up on the 6.5 saum and just re-barrel.

I have 6.5 blanks and several flavors of SAUM reamers in hand. 3-4 weeks lead for prefits, sub 30 days from when you send your action if we can't do a prefit.

 

[Bandit31]

I have 6.5 blanks and several flavors of SAUM reamers in hand. 3-4 weeks lead for prefits, sub 30 days from when you send your action if we can't do a prefit.

Down the road for sure, the one I have right now only has a few hundred rounds on it but was just running slow and I was having tons of brass problems so I hung it up for some time. Now that I have time, I'll re-visit it and see what the problem is.

For the non-standard twists, do we just call or email before hand and see what's available or specify in the order notes?

 

[bohem]

Down the road for sure, the one I have right now only has a few hundred rounds on it but was just running slow and I was having tons of brass problems so I hung it up for some time. Now that I have time, I'll re-visit it and see what the problem is.

Hit me up with a PM and let me know about the brass problems. It might be a reamer spec issue not being compatible with the brass. @SPAK was having some trouble with his 6.5 SAUM from another place and when I opened the neck up for him with our reamer it fixed all the fussiness he was seeing at the loading bench.

 

[Bandit31]

Hit me up with a PM and let me know about the brass problems. It might be a reamer spec issue not being compatible with the brass. @SPAK was having some trouble with his 6.5 SAUM from another place and when I opened the neck up for him with our reamer it fixed all the fussiness he was seeing at the loading bench.

Thanks Josh, will do.

 

[SPAK]

Just to clarify, I rechecked my notes and gave the wrong coal for that initial creedmoor load. This the correct load info:
Peterson brass
Cci 200
122gr Cayuga
2.850”

Below is a picture of 4 shot group at 330 yards with the same load. I think with some fine tuning it’ll shoot pretty well.

 

[Bandit31]

@bohem I think you still have your PM's turned off.

 

[bohem]

@bohem I think you still have your PM's turned off.

sent you a PM. Sorry about that.

 

[SPAK]

Hit me up with a PM and let me know about the brass problems. It might be a reamer spec issue not being compatible with the brass. @SPAK was having some trouble with his 6.5 SAUM from another place and when I opened the neck up for him with our reamer it fixed all the fussiness he was seeing at the loading bench.

literally all the issues went away...... I almost sold the barrel but I’m glad I didn’t. josh did some pva magic and it’s a solid performer now.

 

[bohem]

I got an email last night from CA F&G with a compliance letter. These bullets are now approved for use in CA's non-lead zones. I dont know if the website has been updated yet but it should be shortly.

 

[Bandit31]

 

[BoltActionBrotherhood]

When will the 338s be available?

 

[BEJ762]

Great news! Josh - Thank you for all your efforts in getting the approval!

 

[bohem]

When will the 338s be available?

Probably early summer

 

[Mitch_Biggs]

Thinking about trying the 210’s in a 300 Norma Improved. Do you know of anyone who has tried that combo?

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Thinking about trying the 210’s in a 300 Norma Improved. Do you know of anyone who has tried that combo?

The 210s out of a norma is going to be bad medicine for anything you point it at from any practical distance.

 

[Mitch_Biggs]

I’ve been shooting 215 hybrids with no complaints but thought about trying the 210’s just to see what I could get out of them.

 

[bohem]

Thinking about trying the 210’s in a 300 Norma Improved. Do you know of anyone who has tried that combo?

Not in a 300NM-Imp but I've seen 30 Sherman Mag, 300PRC and a couple 300WM guys try them with excellent performance. the 300 SM is pretty much a 300PRC AI as I understand it. They're seeing 3000-3050 from 300WM, 3100-3125 in PRC, almost 3200 in the SM

I would be surprised if the 300 NM Imp wasn't cracking on 3400fps

 

[Mitch_Biggs]

I’m going to order some and I will let you know.

 

[Schw15]

I read on another forum guys were saying the tip only opens up very little and the bullet tumbles thats what kills? Is that true or do these bullets fully expand

 

[JoedirtPNW]

I would be interested to see some recovered bullets from game!

 

[bohem]

I read on another forum guys were saying the tip only opens up very little and the bullet tumbles thats what kills? Is that true or do these bullets fully expand

Every supersonic bullet tumbles unless it disintegrates. Physics demands that, it is a given from the constraints of spin stabilized projectiles.

The nose opens to about 1.5x diameter

At short ranges the nose sheds petals off and bulldozes through while tumbling. That happened with several that had animals shot inside of 200yd. With the elk that @coldboremiracle shot last winter it was apparent from the hole sizes in the shoulder blades that the bullets expanded and mushroomed but he was unable to recover any from animals due to the complete pass thru.

At this time I have yet to get any recovered bullet photos from anyone. Everything has broken bones, spalled the interior and passed though.

Audad, black bear, elk are the bigger 3 species that have been killed with them. Some folks in SD are doing a lot of coyote killing with the 22s.


I am working on getting some more non-organic gel that can be remelted and stored without refrigeration so we can get some blocks stacked up to try catching bullets again.

Here is a few photos I have from last fall when we managed to catch the 122 out of a 65 Creed. We also tested a 130gr match bullet in the same gel. It penetrated less than 1/2 the distance before completely fragmenting.

These tests were shot with the prototype designs that were not as expanding as the current type. The production version expands about 30% more.

 

[Schw15]

Every supersonic bullet tumbles unless it disintegrates. Physics demands that, it is a given from the constraints of spin stabilized projectiles.

The nose opens to about 1.5x diameter

At short ranges the nose sheds petals off and bulldozes through while tumbling. That happened with several that had animals shot inside of 200yd. With the elk that @coldboremiracle shot last winter it was apparent from the hole sizes in the shoulder blades that the bullets expanded and mushroomed but he was unable to recover any from animals due to the complete pass thru.

At this time I have yet to get any recovered bullet photos from anyone. Everything has broken bones, spalled the interior and passed though.

Audad, black bear, elk are the bigger 3 species that have been killed with them. Some folks in SD are doing a lot of coyote killing with the 22s.


I am working on getting some more non-organic gel that can be remelted and stored without refrigeration so we can get some blocks stacked up to try catching bullets again.

Here is a few photos I have from last fall when we managed to catch the 122 out of a 65 Creed. We also tested a 130gr match bullet in the same gel. It penetrated less than 1/2 the distance before completely fragmenting.

These tests were shot with the prototype designs that were not as expanding as the current type. The production version expands about 30% more.

Awesome thank you for added info. Im going to order some 210 as long as there in stock. Also if i was to buy a prefit barrel would you set free bore according to your bullets? So your target bullet blew up like a berger

 

[bohem]

Awesome thank you for added info. Im going to order some 210 as long as there in stock. Also if i was to buy a prefit barrel would you set free bore according to your bullets? So your target bullet blew up like a berger

The target bullet that exploded was a jacketed bullet that I bought, not one of my target designs.

We have 210s in stock and I have material here to make about 50,000 more of everything

I would be happy to recommend a freebore for the 210s for our barrels. However, the 210 was designed around typical throat specs for magnum cartridges and it is a very tolerant design, our prefits run great with it.