Rifle Scopes New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

#154
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cummins cowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sales@MileHigh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

P.S. If you really want a FFP ATACR, I'd send NF an email saying so at: [email protected]. I'm sure enough people directly contacting them would help push things along. </div></div>

what if FFP is overrated in actual use and has definite downsides many are forgetting, as mark levin would say thats right I said it
grin.gif
</div></div>

What's the downside? </div></div>

I don't get this either. I have not found a situation with a non-ELR rifle where a FFP would not be better. FFP saves time and eliminates one more variable to think about. I shot 5.5-22x NXS scopes for years, I still have some. I use the 15x F1 even with the limited upper range because it WORKS.

Honestly the 15x F1 is the perfect scope (with a reticle like the MIL-R), except for the top-end magnification limit. The Beast is just the "perfect" scope on steroids. If an FFP 5.5-22 had been produced at the ~$2000 price point, it would be game over for all of the competition in the $1300-$3000 class. Even with no additional gimmicks.

Yeah, I would not mind having the extra features and better glass of the Beast, but I fail to see how it would improve hits on 18" (or, say, 2 minute) targets across a wide range of scenarios compared to a 22x F1.

This writing has been on the wall for Nightforce since the Beast development started. Not making the ATACR FFP was a HUGE mistake IMO. Are the F-class people really going to buy that above a regular SFP NXS? Because that's who SFP is for.
 
#155
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Euro Optic has em up on their site as well. Same price range as OpticsPlanet. $3200 for the MOAR, up to $3800 for the Tremor or Horus
 
#156
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hewlett260</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing I don't like are the acronym's. Why does everyone have to come up with an acronym for everything, they should have just called it the BEAST and when asked why the response would be "because it's a FUCKING BEAST! that's why". As for the ATACR, once again, gay acronym. Just call it the <span style="font-weight: bold">NXS XL</span> or some shit. </div></div>

lol that's an acronym
wink.gif
</div></div>


Yeah I know but it doesn't sound retarded like ATACR does.
 
#158
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still not getting it...why do people want a FFP ATACR instead of just buying a BEAST? What am I missing here? </div></div>

FFP ATACR = exactly what we've been asking for at an affordable price.

BEAST = some marketing gimmick we don't need that bumps the price to Schmidt and Bender pricing who, in my opinion, has much better reticles to choose from.

A 5.5-22 FFP is all we wanted. No bells and whistles to increase the price astronomically. Is it really that hard to comprehend?

Although, for marketing reasons, I can understand them not wanting to water down the unveiling of the BEAST.
 
#159
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main advantage for second focal plane scopes is that the reticle does not get magnified as power increases. That allows you to aim more precisely at high magnification. If I were shooting benchrest that might matter, but for tactical matches the advantages of FFP completely outweigh any perceived downsides of your reticle changing size. </div></div>

Common misconception. The reticle to target relationship is fixed. It covers up no more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x. I suppose that may be a willing trade off for bench resters and f class people but this is a tactical marksman website.

Having the opportunity to attend a large match, even just one or two, will quickly show you the advantage of ffp over sfp on variable scopes at varying ranges in a field setting.

If the steel clangs the reticle was precise enough for me.
 
#160
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main advantage for second focal plane scopes is that the reticle does not get magnified as power increases. That allows you to aim more precisely at high magnification. If I were shooting benchrest that might matter, but for tactical matches the advantages of FFP completely outweigh any perceived downsides of your reticle changing size. </div></div>

Common misconception. The reticle to target relationship is fixed. It covers up no more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x. I suppose that may be a willing trade off for bench resters and f class people but this is a tactical marksman website.

Having the opportunity to attend a large match, even just one or two, will quickly show you the advantage of ffp over sfp on variable scopes at varying ranges in a field setting.

If the steel clangs the reticle was precise enough for me. </div></div>

It's not a misconception...

The fact is, because the reticle has to be useable on both ends, low and high, they are generally speaking "thicker" across the board.

They can make a SFP reticle cover less area from the start, where "most" FFP reticles start their life off thicker in order to work at lower power. So yes it does "cover" more area across the board.

You can get some "thinner" FFP reticles, but then you trade off your lower end.
 
#162
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main advantage for second focal plane scopes is that the reticle does not get magnified as power increases. That allows you to aim more precisely at high magnification. If I were shooting benchrest that might matter, but for tactical matches the advantages of FFP completely outweigh any perceived downsides of your reticle changing size. </div></div>

Common misconception. The reticle to target relationship is fixed. It covers up no more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x. I suppose that may be a willing trade off for bench resters and f class people but this is a tactical marksman website.

Having the opportunity to attend a large match, even just one or two, will quickly show you the advantage of ffp over sfp on variable scopes at varying ranges in a field setting.

If the steel clangs the reticle was precise enough for me. </div></div>

It's not a misconception...

The fact is, because the reticle has to be useable on both ends, low and high, they are generally speaking "thicker" across the board.

They can make a SFP reticle cover less area from the start, where "most" FFP reticles start their life off thicker in order to work at lower power. So yes it does "cover" more area across the board.

You can get some "thinner" FFP reticles, but then you trade off your lower end. </div></div>

It is a misconception. You are correct, I'm not trying to challenge your knowledge of the subject, I'm not in the same league. However, there are a vast array of people under the impression that because the reticle grows as you increase the mag, its covering more of the target at higher magnification.

The target grows also, it covers the same amount of the target anywhere within the magnification range. You know that, Frank, but many don't. Does the reticle have to be thicker than a SFP to cover the range of mag, I'm sure it does, I think some have thinner reticles available like you mentioned, I don't know a lot about that.

I do know for the kind of shooting promoted on this site, I've not found the FFP reticle in my Nightforce to be problematic with lining up a shot. My comments were directed at the "the reticle covers up more of the target at higher magnification on an ffp scope" crowd. If that's not what he was saying then I directed my response improperly.
 
#164
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main advantage for second focal plane scopes is that the reticle does not get magnified as power increases. That allows you to aim more precisely at high magnification. If I were shooting benchrest that might matter, but for tactical matches the advantages of FFP completely outweigh any perceived downsides of your reticle changing size. </div></div>

Common misconception. The reticle to target relationship is fixed. It covers up no more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x. I suppose that may be a willing trade off for bench resters and f class people but this is a tactical marksman website.

Having the opportunity to attend a large match, even just one or two, will quickly show you the advantage of ffp over sfp on variable scopes at varying ranges in a field setting.

If the steel clangs the reticle was precise enough for me. </div></div>

It's not a misconception...

The fact is, because the reticle has to be useable on both ends, low and high, they are generally speaking "thicker" across the board.

They can make a SFP reticle cover less area from the start, where "most" FFP reticles start their life off thicker in order to work at lower power. So yes it does "cover" more area across the board.

You can get some "thinner" FFP reticles, but then you trade off your lower end. </div></div>

It is a misconception. You are correct, I'm not trying to challenge your knowledge of the subject, I'm not in the same league. However, there are a vast array of people under the impression that because the reticle grows as you increase the mag, its covering more of the target at higher magnification.

The target grows also, it covers the same amount of the target anywhere within the magnification range. You know that, Frank, but many don't. Does the reticle have to be thicker than a SFP to cover the range of mag, I'm sure it does, I think some have thinner reticles available like you mentioned, I don't know a lot about that.

I do know for the kind of shooting promoted on this site, I've not found the FFP reticle in my Nightforce to be problematic with lining up a shot. My comments were directed at the "the reticle covers up more of the target at higher magnification on an ffp scope" crowd. If that's not what he was saying then I directed my response improperly.</div></div>

LawnMM,

I use FFP and for our type of shooting, "steel targets" the FFP reticles are fine... however there is a big difference, and I will demonstrate the only way I know how, with pictures.

Note the S&B P4 vs P4F



<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII P4F Reticle Diagram. Notice Reticle Dimension "C", spec'ed at .130" at 100 yards/.35 cm at 100 meters:</span></span>
P4FineDiagram495x631.jpg


<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">PMII P4 Reticle Diagram. Notice "Dimension "C", spec'ed at .240" at 100 yards/.67 cm at 100 meters:</span></span>
P4Diagram495x640.jpg



Clearly one covers more than the other, before you adjust the power. If you go too low the reticle becomes almost unusable because the markings tend to vanish.

NF is known for thin reticles, and with their FFP offering, like the original MLR, the criticism was, it was not usable at lower power. You lose the ability to see the hash marks.

This is what people are talking about but explain it poorly.

A P4 reticle covers .65 cm at 100m, the P4F cover half that .35 cm at 100 m, see the difference .
 
#165
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Hears a more detailed explaination of a couple of the features from the BEAST pdf:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">i4F™ and M2™ precision elevation lever </span>
Make your initial elevation adjustments instantly with the primary adjustment knob, in .50 MOA or .2 Mil-Radian increments. Then, for extreme precision, a simple throw of our fine adjustment lever provides an additional elevation adjustment of .250 MOA or .1 Mil-Radian. Never have elevation adjustments been faster and more precise
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">i4F™ and the B.E.A.S.T.™ 360o secondary zero brake control</span>
Maybe your base zero, set with ZeroStop™, is reasonably close—for example, 150 meters. But suddenly, you anticipate engaging a number of targets at, for example, 750 meters. Dial the necessary elevation, press the button on top of the elevation knob, rotate the knob 90o turn counter-clockwise, and you’ve instantly set a positive, secure adjustment at that distance. To disengage, press the button again, turn the elevation knob 90o clockwise, and it’s released. One-hand instant operation, no fumbling with complicated mechanisms, no time lost, no distraction from your target. Your ZeroStop™ zero point is unaffected.
</div></div>

Pretty cool.
 
#166
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

We are on the same page. I figured he was of the opinion that the reticle covered more of the target JUST because it grew with higher magnification. If he was pointing out differences in reticle thickness itself, I misunderstood. Like you said, sometimes its explained poorly so I thought this was another "my ffp covers more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x" posts.

I know exactly what you mean by the thin MLR, the MLR2 wasn't out when I bought mine and you are correct, below about 8x you can't use the hash marks. I will probably send it in and have the reticle changed to an MLR2 come tax time.

Unless I get a good trade in towards a beast =)
 
#167
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Can anyone tell if the ocular rotates with the power ring like the NXS does? At first i figured it did but after looking at the PDF with the larger pictures it looks like it might turn separately. I really hope it's just like the older scopes as it eliminates the need for a cat tail. I really can't run them effectively on anything except a S&B since the power rings turn the opposite way. On the S&Bs the tail is to the left side on max power so it doesn't interfere with the bolt unless you're running it on 5x anyway (rarely ever). On the everything else i've ran they turn the opposite way. Very annoying to me. The old design NF had was perfect!
 
#169
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I and many others are very satisfied with Nightforce. They are a tough scope and the clicks repeat. Until we can get the new models in our hands we don't have many facts. I am sure the R&D on top end scopes is extremely costly. The odds are good that Nightforce knows exactly what they are doing. We should be delighted that a quality scope company makes new offerings. I suspect that the military market is where they are pointing. When I get the scope in my hands I will be able to judge. Until then we are just shooting in the dark.
 
#170
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

the big question... is the new price is now the same as S&B and premier....

while feature wise, i can see it surpassing both of these on paper... the question is the glass.... if the glass is = to then its a win... if not, then it just comes down to options...
 
#171
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are on the same page. I figured he was of the opinion that the reticle covered more of the target JUST because it grew with higher magnification. If he was pointing out differences in reticle thickness itself, I misunderstood. Like you said, sometimes its explained poorly so I thought this was another "my ffp covers more of the target at 25x than it does at 5x" posts.

I know exactly what you mean by the thin MLR, the MLR2 wasn't out when I bought mine and you are correct, below about 8x you can't use the hash marks. I will probably send it in and have the reticle changed to an MLR2 come tax time.

Unless I get a good trade in towards a beast =) </div></div>

I never said FFP covers more as the mag increases. You failed to comprehend my original post...
 
#172
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Looks like the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">SECRET </span></span>is out before SHOT, which is next week. I'm certain that Nightforce put a huge effort into this scope, as it's a part of the sales description, so I'll reserve judgment about the new turrets and flip lever. I wasn't wrong about S&B's locking MTC knobs after trying them at SHOT a few years ago, but you had to experience them to know.

I do like the 1" shorter length when compared to the S&B. The major question is the optical performance, if it's as good as Hensoldt's then it has a chance to be a winner. As we've seen, mechanical issues can be redesigned and retrofitted, so I'm not worried about the turrets.

While I hate it being called the "BEAST", I think NF may have earned the right to get a little silly.

PS Oddly enough, the ATACR seems more attractive to me than the glitzy BEAST, despite its SFP reticle. I doubt I would use the brake, high-speed turrets and so on. KISS and improve the optics, reduce the size, improve the illumination control. At $2.3k I think they have a winner in the ATACR. It's 2" shorter than the S&B 5-25x and slightly shorter than the S&B 3-20x!!
 
#174
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I never said FFP covers more as the mag increases. You failed to comprehend my original post... </div></div>

And if that was the case, I apologized several times for it already. However, when you say this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main advantage for second focal plane scopes is that the reticle does not get magnified as power increases. That allows you to aim more precisely at high magnification. </div></div>

You can see how its easy to think that was what you were implying. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled thread, I want a beast!

Rich
 
#175
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sales@MileHigh</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-size: 17pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">This is pure speculation</span>, </span></span>but who's to say Nightforce isn't going to come out with a FFP ATACR a little down the road? </div></div>

I'm guessing here: the ATACR is 1" shorter than the BEAST, so making it FFP might require the ATACR to be as long as the BEAST. Instead, I could see a bare-bones BEAST, one without the turret features. They could call it LITTLEBEASTBUTNOTANATACR. Kinda rolls off the lips.

PS Look at the spinoffs that Premier has produced based on it's tactical Heritage designs. NF could do the same with the BEAST and bring the basic scope to a lower price point. This could be the scope that many expected and want.
 
#176
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">SECRET </span></span>is out before SHOT, which is next week. I'm certain that Nightforce put a huge effort into this scope, as it's a part of the sales description, so I'll reserve judgment about the new turrets and flip lever. I wasn't wrong about S&B's locking MTC knobs after trying them at SHOT a few years ago, but you had to experience them to know.

I do like the 1" shorter length when compared to the S&B. The major question is the optical performance, if it's as good as Hensoldt's then it has a chance to be a winner. As we've seen, mechanical issues can be redesigned and retrofitted, so I'm not worried about the turrets.

While I hate it being called the "BEAST", I think NF may have earned the right to get a little silly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">PS Oddly enough, the ATACR seems more attractive to me than the glitzy BEAST, despite its SFP reticle.</span> I doubt I would use the brake, high-speed turrets and so on. KISS and improve the optics, reduce the size, improve the illumination control. At $2.3k I think they have a winner in the ATACR. It's 2" shorter than the S&B 5-25x and slightly shorter than the S&B 3-20x!! </div></div>

You're not alone and this is why folks are a little let down. The BEAST is clearly NFs brainchild; they kinda swept the ATACR under the rug so to speak to keep the focus on the BEAST.

IMHO, if NF dropped the gimmick(and I'll continue to call it a gimmick until I get my hands on one) and invested the time, technology and resources into perfecting the ATACR and working out a FFP option, they would have a successor to the NXS that would dominate the market like the NXS never could.
 
#177
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

You guys are comical...

So are the locking turret from anyone else a gimmick ?

How about the MTC Turret, gimmick ?

Was the original Unertl turret a gimmick ?

I completely agree, the ATACR should have been FFP, but the powers at be at NF see the huge sales in their SFP line and it's quite possible the F1 didn't stack up when they laid out all the numbers to release the ATACR as a FFP to start. (just a thought) . Sure it makes sense not to dilute the BEAST there is a lot of time and effort put into it. Release it first unchallenged internally and see what happens before releasing a watered down version.

But to call it gimmicks when all this is being requested, and clearly it is being requested because everyone else has some form of the same thing, minus the fine tuning, but still there is a reason these options were put in place. It didn't come out of a vacuum.

Like I said, I would bet 90% of you guys putting it down wouldn't buy it if every review was a rave, for what ever reason, cost, features, etc... you just like to bitch because it is not what "you" would do.

 
#179
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

If the glass can compete with S&B and Premier, I'm def gonna pick one up.
laugh.gif
And if they end up coming out with an FFP ATACR, I'm def gonna pick one of those up too! :p
 
#180
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are comical...

So are the locking turret from anyone else a gimmick ?

How about the MTC Turret, gimmick ?

Was the original Unertl turret a gimmick ?

I completely agree, the ATACR should have been FFP, but the powers at be at NF see the huge sales in their SFP line and it's quite possible the F1 didn't stack up when they laid out all the numbers to release the ATACR as a FFP to start. (just a thought) . Sure it makes sense not to dilute the BEAST there is a lot of time and effort put into it. Release it first unchallenged internally and see what happens before releasing a watered down version.

But to call it gimmicks when all this is being requested, and clearly it is being requested because everyone else has some form of the same thing, minus the fine tuning, but still there is a reason these options were put in place. It didn't come out of a vacuum.

Like I said, I would bet 90% of you guys putting it down wouldn't buy it if every review was a rave, for what ever reason, cost, features, etc... you just like to bitch because it is not what "you" would do.

</div></div>

To me, any unproven concept is a gimmick until you can prove otherwise. If it turns out to be a good design, I'll give it it's due; I'm not passing judgment based on an internet photo and some hearsay but we've heard for months about a big project that NF has in the works and I don't think the final product is what folks were expecting.

Oddly enough, I think folks were expecting the marquee release to be closer to the ATACR, along the lines of a refined NXS, than the BEAST; and if it was FFP, I'm not sure there would be a commercial need for the technology in the Beast and it would get relegated to Mil/LEO use.

JUST SPECULATION, but did NF purposely not make a FFP ATACR so it didn't dethrone the flagship? This wouldn't be new, when Porsche designed the Cayman, they realized the chassis had more potential with the same power and better balance than the 911 so they stuffed an small, underpowered, NA I6 under the hood to avoid undercutting themselves. Again, just speculation but I understand this is a business. It also serves as motivation to bump up to the Beast(911) like the FFP may motivate people to upgrade to the Beast and allow the ATACR to fill a niche.

I'll reserve judgment until after launch, I'm just not sure what their rationale was behind these 2 scopes vs just 1 with FFP.
 
#181
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Please spare me you BS...

I never remember anyone mention gimmicks when Premier introduced Throw Levers...

Unproven... So a locking turret is unproven ?

A fine tune adjustment, Unproven ?

You're reasoning is utter BS. People were posting the Patent information for over a year and clearly we have always talked about 2 different scopes, 2 years ago, I clearly say the Prototype BEAST and the NXS Version. Both were in the back room at NF, last year and the year before. Just because YOU didn't expect it, doesn't mean NF when in some Left Field direction.
 
#182
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I have an impression of NF that they don't rush into gimmicks to promote sales, they seem rather conservative and careful when it comes to changes. Plus the NXS has been very reliable and rugged. Without having the BEAST in my hands, I don't know whether I'd use the new/novel features. I certainly appreciate the improved optics and shorter length and I think the ATACR is a smart move.
 
#183
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Good luck to NF with their new product offerings. I hope they do well.

Personally, I'm amazed they didn't install a reticle into the FFP of the 5.5-22 NXS and call it good, rather than design the attacker...but what do I know about optics design? (nothing)
 
#184
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

It definitely remains to be seen whether having a fast coarse adjustment paired with a fine adjustment is superior in any way to a conventional turret. Adjustments that require more precision than the coarse adjuster offers will require 2 actions to complete; this can hardly be faster than, say, an S&B DT turret adjustment. Since nobody is complaining about inaccuracy in conventional turrets, there's no advantage possible there, and the BEAST will have 2 mechanisms instead of one to possibly fail.

Still, competition among manufacturers is usually good for consumers. Maybe S&B, Premier, and Zeiss Hensoldt will respond with products that raise the bar yet again.

Joe
 
#186
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To me, any unproven concept is a gimmick until you can prove otherwise. If it turns out to be a good design, I'll give it it's due; I'm not passing judgment based on an internet photo and some hearsay but we've heard for months about a big project that NF has in the works and I don't think the final product is what folks were expecting.

Oddly enough, I think folks were expecting the marquee release to be closer to the ATACR, along the lines of a refined NXS, than the BEAST; and if it was FFP, I'm not sure there would be a commercial need for the technology in the Beast and it would get relegated to Mil/LEO use.

JUST SPECULATION, but did NF purposely not make a FFP ATACR so it didn't dethrone the flagship? This wouldn't be new, when Porsche designed the Cayman, they realized the chassis had more potential with the same power and better balance than the 911 so they stuffed an small, underpowered, NA I6 under the hood to avoid undercutting themselves. Again, just speculation but I understand this is a business. It also serves as motivation to bump up to the Beast(911) like the FFP may motivate people to upgrade to the Beast and allow the ATACR to fill a niche.

I'll reserve judgment until after launch, I'm just not sure what their rationale was behind these 2 scopes vs just 1 with FFP. </div></div>
You can't say you'll "reserve judgement" and then pass judgement in the same thread. Thats like saying no offense, but your kid is a fuckin retard.

And by the way, your Cayman/911 comparison story is total BS along with just about everything else you've said.
 
#187
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

If this is true, per NF's write up of the BEAST:

<span style="color: #3333FF">First focal plane precision
While locating a reticle in a riflescope’s second focal plane is most common, a first focal plane location has distinct advantages to the accomplished shooter. All reticle subtensions, whether in MOA or Mil-Radian configuration, remain in the same visual proportion to the target across the scope’s entire magnification range. This makes a first focal plane reticle particularly effective for target holdovers, windage leads and range estimation. It eliminates a number of variables, resulting in greater speed and ultimately in greater accuracy in high-stress environments.</span>

....Then why is the ATACR not F1? I got so excited about it until I saw that and realized I would have to drop $ on the Beast for an F1 NF.

So for years we have asked for an NXS 5.5-22x F1 and instead we get the choice between their Schmidt-priced optic or basically an NXS STILL in F2? I'm baffled. Looks like my Razor will have to do a while longer.
 
#188
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

As the cost of first class optics go higher than $3000 I would like to see a "tactical", grunt proof, version of Burris Eliminator III/Zeiss Diarange.

I think todays "state of the art" scopes has the same functionality as tank optics with handcranked ballistic computers from the 50'ies. (.50cal spotter and "mildot" reticle..) The technology of the Abrams and Leo II is ready and available to be fitted into a riflescope today.

As a side note; this year there are some reports of "hunters" pointing their new cars at the huntingfields, observing game in the car's nightvision system and shooting out of the sunroof. Adaption of new technology..
 
#189
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Ill prelude by saying Im a pretty novice LR shooter and Im no operator. So, my experience with high-end optics is pretty limited, so maybe I should just STFU, but this (BEAST)scope looks pretty killer to me...

20 mils per turn is awesome. That means I could dial into 1000 flip the switch and then fine tune within about a half turn on this thing, rather than grinding my elevation turret like crazy all the time...

The MIL-R reticle looks very nice. Im itching to see it in person (although I probably never will...)because it looks like it has a pretty fine lines for a FFP optic in this magnification range. I curious how visible/usable it is at 5x.

Its a NF, so I know the build quality and robustness will be excellent.

Lastly, the only way I could afford this scope (or others in this price point) is if I sold my car and donated some plasma for a while, then spent some time in the hospital after my wife found out how much it cost me. All that aside, I like the idea that offerings like this from NF may encourage additional future developments from lower cost optics providers that I can actually afford.
 
#190
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

I believe I echo many others thoughts when I say to NightForce; Why not give us upgraded optics in a 5.5-22X50 FFP scope at a reasonable price? Just add it on to the NXS F1 line at a little higher cost?

Your marketing guys really do need a stiff cup of black coffee and a serious wedgee! LOL
 
#191
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Man yall are touchy sometimes. All I said, in a nutshell, is that the Beast isn't what I was expecting and others have echoed that sentiment. I didn't say it was right or wrong, I didn't say it would be junk, I didn't say it wouldn't be of high quality or workmanship; I just found the materialized concept a bit curious.

Maybe gimmick wasn't the proper word choice because I wasn't insinuating NF was trying to pull one over on us. If you wanna split hairs, call it "unproven technology" or "unproven concept" and don't say "well SB did it so it's proven." Just because they made it work doesn't mean it's foolproof for everyone else and I'm sure they also had growing pains in the development process.

This is uncharted territory for NF and it would be ignorant to pass judgment on the product before doing your due diligence. Yes, I speculated, but it's speculation and meant to be taken at face value. If I questioned anything in this thread, it was simply their motivation behind the technology and it was genuine curiosity, not condescension.

I've been reminded why I normally stay out of the optics section. Way too tense in here. I'll go back to bolt guns and OT now.
 
#192
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've been reminded why I normally stay out of the optics section. Way too tense in here. I'll go back to bolt guns and OT now. </div></div>

Just don't dare say anything bad about NF and you'll be fine. Or S&B ... or Hensoldt... or Premier ..... or Vortex, Leopold, SWFA...wait this place is tense. LOL
 
#193
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Is there any chance there will be price breaks on the 5.5-22 NXS with the new scopes coming out? I know it's a slim chance but I am needing another scope and trying to decide what route to go.
 
#194
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: springer01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: THEBEARRRRRRJEW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've been reminded why I normally stay out of the optics section. Way too tense in here. I'll go back to bolt guns and OT now. </div></div>

Just don't dare say anything bad about NF and you'll be fine. Or S&B ... or Hensoldt... or Premier ..... or Vortex, Leopold, SWFA...wait this place is tense. LOL </div></div>

That's the impression I get. You say something that isn't flattering of NF, then "YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!" Its been an entertaining thread
wink.gif
 
#195
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's the impression I get. You say something that isn't flattering of NF, then "YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!" Its been an entertaining thread
wink.gif
</div></div>
I think Lowlight was shown a prototype of the NF BEAST sometime ago, so he's actually fondled one and discussed it with NF and others. This gives him a leg up in knowledge about the BEAST -- we might just wait until we've tried it also to make any hard judgments. Just common sense.

If you think it gets tense in the Optics section, try the Second Amendment discussions!
laugh.gif
 
#196
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: One-Eyed Jack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's the impression I get. You say something that isn't flattering of NF, then "YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!" Its been an entertaining thread
wink.gif
</div></div>
I think Lowlight was shown a prototype of the NF BEAST sometime ago, so he's actually fondled one and discussed it with NF and others. This gives him a leg up in knowledge about the BEAST -- we might just wait until we've tried it also to make any hard judgments. Just common sense.

<span style="font-weight: bold">If you think it gets tense in the Optics section, try the Second Amendment discussions!</span>
laugh.gif
</div></div>

I will do no such thing!
 
#197
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Yes I have handled versions of the BEAST and the ATACR, as well I have spoke to them at length, been in the room when the optics guy was there, and have kept in contact with NF as this scope has progressed from prototype to product.

I have a much better idea than most, as well I have seen more than most, own more, broke more, the list goes on.

You can say anything you want, but if you are completely full of shit I am gonna call you one it, if you are gonna act like you know something based on a 140 characters I'm gonna call you on it, if you're gonna pretend like NF hasn't been doing it well and this all new to them, I'm gonna call you on it. If you're gonna dismissed time, the R&D, the units out in the hands of people testing and evaluating, as if you know something the rest of the readers don't, I'm gonna call you on it.

There is a reason stuff takes this long, especially from NF, they have a track record of crossing the "T"s and dotting the "i"s to the chagrin of many who wished they put things out faster, me included.

Portraying them as fly by night to unproven, gimmicky or any of the other unfounded descriptions used is gonna get you called out on.

It's easy for people to Monday morning quarterback these companies, but to do so without even having "seen it", please, you;re a tool.
 
#198
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

With Bushnell and Nightforce bringing top of the line optics for less dollars to the table, S&B, and all the other euro makers, better take notice.

Any idea when the embargo to spill the beans will be lifted so we can see a video review?
 
#199
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Well SHOT starts Tuesday and my appointment is for 8:30AM Tuesday Morning, I am sure some may show up before, possible media day, but as far as hands on video...

The ATACR right after SHOT, the BEAST shortly after that... unless NF changes their minds.
wink.gif
 
#200
Re: New Nightforce "B.E.A.S.T." & ATACR

Ok, now for something completely different - technical questions.

1. There's ~35 mrad of elevation and a 20 mrad/rev. turret, so I assume it's a double turn setup. How does the user know that the turret is in the second revolution? Is there some kind of indicator that I'm missing?

2. The description of the "360-degree brake control" is a bit unclear to me. The way I understand it, it sets an <span style="font-style: italic">upper</span> limit of the elevation range (like the zero stop sets a lower limit), so when it is set at 7 mrad for example, the user can dial between 0 and 7 mrad for a hard stop at a certain elevation setting and has to undo the mechanism in order to get the full elevation range again. Is that correct?

3. The fine adjusment lever has to be used in order to get 0.1 mrad adjustments. Does it somehow reset itself when the knob is turned again, or does the user have to reset it to "0" before making another adjustment? Let's say the user wants to dial in 1.3 mrad, he twists the knob to "1.2" and switches the lever to "0.1". Now the next adjustment he wants to make is to 3.4 mrad. Does he just turn the knob to "3.4", or would he be dialing in 3.5 mrad by turning the knob to "3.4", so he has to reset the lever to "0" before or after turning the knob?

Maybe someone has understood the descriptions better than I have, otherwise I'm afraid Frank will be the only one able to clear this up at this point.
wink.gif
 
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