New press announcement from Area 419

[Dthomas3523]

Claims made:

Reduce tolerances more than current presses

Best feeling/smoothest

That’s all I’ve seen on the live video or here. Haven’t seen any claims of miracle ammo or anything else. Mostly just seeing people with sticker shock since most presses are in the $2-$300 range.

Like most people do, people are coming to their own conclusions with the $1200 price. It must mean that it’s capable of xyz. When no more claims than what’s listed have been made. Don’t put words in their mouth.

The video clearly showed only pieces and they clearly said they needed to have stuff finished and spun up to get working presses. You also don’t make a video with mainly cad drawings if you have a working/production ready model. People continually asking if it exists are clearly not paying attention or just trying to stir things up.

Jon is a pretty meticulous engineer and doesn’t have a history of going half cocked. Sit back and see what comes of it.

 

[Steel head]

Im looking forward to a first hand review from one of the precision rifle pimps here.

 

[flyer1a]

I'll also tell you guys where the first few presses will go - you'll maybe never see one of these, as we make first articles to be critiqued and changed, but I'll for sure tell you about them.

One will obviously live on our reloading bench. We are going to use it to reload, and we will also run totally unrealistic stress tests on it for material selection reasons. We have a few different grades/alloys of aluminum we will test to see what will generate the best overall solution.

Another will head to Josh Lapin at Copper Creek. He puts thousands of pulls on a handle in a given week. He also has a camera roll full of failures featuring every press made. He will be able to do a normal person's lifetime of loading in just a few weeks.

We will send a press or two to some friends that are at the very top of precision shooting in F-Class and BR. Paper is a LOT less forgiving. As will be the critiques from these guys - who also own presses from Lenzi and those types.

Finally, one will go to Gavin. You may never see content on the pre-production model, but we want him to start to work with it. He has as much expertise across the selection of available presses as anyone, and will be able to provide constructive feedback that few others can.

Once we get these out and can make any needed tweaks, we will release final specs/details, start accepting pre-orders, and be in full-production on the units.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Also, real quick, what question are we dodging? For several days now I have been working through and answering questions on this forum, other forums, and various social media channels. I think we have been more accessible and transparent than you're going to see of about any company in the industry. Who else 1) releases concepts, and then 2) jumps online to discuss them over the weekend, 3) even with some guys we are confident won't be customers on the product?

If you guys want brands to engage, it's probably better to slow down with accusations and such. I don't really care, but I talk to other guys in similar roles that have decided "Fuck [insert forum name] and the trolls on their boards" because of this stuff. Just lookin' out as I believe direct engagement is VERY important for the progression of the community.

@flyer1a I couldn't agree with you more. I have been and will continue to be an Area 419 customer. I have purchased primarily your products that are complimentary with Autotrickler and have been very impressed with your quality.

Finally, As do the vast majority here, I enjoy and appreciate the direct engagement approach that you are involved in. One of the things that comes out of this for me is that Area 419 can be trusted to tell the truth about something. Also, that if you are considering developing a product, but later decide that is probably isn't right for some reason and you decide to cancel it, it was the right thing to do. No one bats a thousand in terms of product development, but your batting average is higher than most other manufacturers.

Keep up the good work and the new products coming !

 

[kthomas]

I'll also tell you guys where the first few presses will go - you'll maybe never see one of these, as we make first articles to be critiqued and changed, but I'll for sure tell you about them.

One will obviously live on our reloading bench. We are going to use it to reload, and we will also run totally unrealistic stress tests on it for material selection reasons. We have a few different grades/alloys of aluminum we will test to see what will generate the best overall solution.

Another will head to Josh Lapin at Copper Creek. He puts thousands of pulls on a handle in a given week. He also has a camera roll full of failures featuring every press made. He will be able to do a normal person's lifetime of loading in just a few weeks.

We will send a press or two to some friends that are at the very top of precision shooting in F-Class and BR. Paper is a LOT less forgiving. As will be the critiques from these guys - who also own presses from Lenzi and those types.

Finally, one will go to Gavin. You may never see content on the pre-production model, but we want him to start to work with it. He has as much expertise across the selection of available presses as anyone, and will be able to provide constructive feedback that few others can.

Once we get these out and can make any needed tweaks, we will release final specs/details, start accepting pre-orders, and be in full-production on the units.

While I don't think this product is for me, I really do appreciate the open and candid conversations we are having in regards to your products, and the transparency you guys are providing.

It's quite refreshing to have companies that are very willing to engage with their consumers online on a forum such as this, keeping us updated with your plans and expectations for this product. Admittedly this is not a forgiving bunch on this forum.

I'll be watching as this product develops, I hope it turns out to be really successful. I'm curious to see consumer reviews and hear what perceived benefits the users are seeing.

Best of luck with the product development and launch.

 

[kriller134]

I'll also tell you guys where the first few presses will go - you'll maybe never see one of these, as we make first articles to be critiqued and changed, but I'll for sure tell you about them.

One will obviously live on our reloading bench. We are going to use it to reload, and we will also run totally unrealistic stress tests on it for material selection reasons. We have a few different grades/alloys of aluminum we will test to see what will generate the best overall solution.

Another will head to Josh Lapin at Copper Creek. He puts thousands of pulls on a handle in a given week. He also has a camera roll full of failures featuring every press made. He will be able to do a normal person's lifetime of loading in just a few weeks.

We will send a press or two to some friends that are at the very top of precision shooting in F-Class and BR. Paper is a LOT less forgiving. As will be the critiques from these guys - who also own presses from Lenzi and those types.

Finally, one will go to Gavin. You may never see content on the pre-production model, but we want him to start to work with it. He has as much expertise across the selection of available presses as anyone, and will be able to provide constructive feedback that few others can.

Once we get these out and can make any needed tweaks, we will release final specs/details, start accepting pre-orders, and be in full-production on the units.

If you wanna send one over to someone that has zero (no pun intended) credibility, can barely form a sentence, and curses a lot, I’m your huckleberry. Just saying.

 

[kindabitey]

The one thing I don't think anyone has mentioned, is the ergonomics beyond the handle. It looks to have considerably more room around the ram in
the lowered position. Things like this are kind of crucial in my opinion. Between age and some (maybe a lot of) stupid stuff I did in my younger days, dexterity
isn't what it used to be.

 

[samb300]

I'm our Dir. of Sales/Marketing. The idea of blind testing in medicine works as it's been a process required for decades (centuries?) and there is a lot of structure around it. Medicine also tends to come in pretty consistent form (little pill, vial, syringe) so it's easier to be blind. The idea that someone can do that in the reloading world where the items feel/look/act different is a lot more difficult. What we have done though is sought out the best public source of testing we could find, with a strong reputation, and have engaged him to do this for all of you.

The other thing to make very clear here - there's no promise this improves your ammo. None. It absolutely may, as there will be a reduction in variables, but it also may not. A press is one of about 50 parts/components/tools that go into building "perfect" ammo. This project will continue and we will work on controlling more of those variables, but what we have shown at this point is a part of a broad system. It'll be the best of its kind, bar none, but understand the nature of tools in an ecosystem.

The individuals buying this are doing it to reduce variables, and because they appreciate quality equipment. Like someone said in another thread on another site "I have a nice set of Mitutoyo calipers on my reloading bench. Could I do the same job, to the level of accuracy I need with a cheap set from Harbor Freight? Probably. But I like nice tools."

I'm not sure I follow how testing the Zero objectively versus other presses will be difficult? That's the exact data someone like myself would need before considering an investment like your press. And this is the data I think you would need for your own ability to market the press as being better than any other press besides how it feels.

Take 100 fired cases from a single rifle, in a generic caliber like 6.5 Creedmoor. Take 1 FL sizing die of known quality and reputation, i.e. Redding Type S bushing die or Forster FL non-bushing die. Using the same lube brand on each case, and best attempt to bump each case 0.002", size them on:
- Zero
- Co-Ax
- Rock Chucker
- Cheapo Lee
- Big Boss II, PraziPress, T7 Turret, etc

Measure and report the runout on each case.

Then do the same thing seating bullets. I don't care if you take those same cases and "stack" runout, i.e. load bullets into cases with high runout from sizing, or take 100 perfect sized cases with zero runout (which would eliminate the before and after variable of what induced the bullet runout).

Many people use $110 arbor presses to seat bullets, so prove to us that the Zero meets or exceeds loaded bullet runout compared to an arbor press or any of the above-mentioned single stage presses.

If you have a press that can best all the others out there both in sizing AND seating, then you will have a winner regardless of price. Just like owners can justify a TT or Prometheus or an AI (hehe) or whatever, they're not just paying for feel, they're paying for measureable performance and repeatability.

 

[LRCampos]

From the preview images, I really liked the 419 new press. I like tight tolerances and the primer spent system looks nice. I hope it will be a big success.

Ilove the beauty of US market: there are a lot of OPTIONS of reloading presses for every possible taste and budget. You just choose what fits you best.

 

[kthomas]

I'm not sure I follow how testing the Zero objectively versus other presses will be difficult? That's the exact data someone like myself would need before considering an investment like your press. And this is the data I think you would need for your own ability to market the press as being better than any other press besides how it feels.

Take 100 fired cases from a single rifle, in a generic caliber like 6.5 Creedmoor. Take 1 FL sizing die of known quality and reputation, i.e. Redding Type S bushing die or Forster FL non-bushing die. Using the same lube brand on each case, and best attempt to bump each case 0.002", size them on:
- Zero
- Co-Ax
- Rock Chucker
- Cheapo Lee
- Big Boss II, PraziPress, T7 Turret, etc

Measure and report the runout on each case.

Then do the same thing seating bullets. I don't care if you take those same cases and "stack" runout, i.e. load bullets into cases with high runout from sizing, or take 100 perfect sized cases with zero runout (which would eliminate the before and after variable of what induced the bullet runout).

Many people use $110 arbor presses to seat bullets, so prove to us that the Zero meets or exceeds loaded bullet runout compared to an arbor press or any of the above-mentioned single stage presses.

If you have a press that can best all the others out there both in sizing AND seating, then you will have a winner regardless of price. Just like owners can justify a TT or Prometheus or an AI (hehe) or whatever, they're not just paying for feel, they're paying for measureable performance and repeatability.

Beyond that, the rounds need to be tested in a rifle affixed to a testing device, to see what level of precision each of the loaded rounds has.

Run-out doesn't really mean anything if it doesn't show up down range.

I'm not sure if people (or A419) are ultimately expecting more precision from the ammo as a result, but if so, some method of testing as we are talking about would be a good way of measuring that.

I do agree though, one could certainly do a quality test of the resulting ammo from the press vs others if they were so inclined and implemented the correct processes and controls.

 

[wbbh]

Rant Warning on:

I really get sick and tired of the tin foil hat brigade, the conspiracy nuts, and especially those jealous of anyone that has something better than what they have. A Ford or Chevy will transport a person just as well as a supercar, but some folks with the cash prefer the supercar. Instead of being jealous and attacking the company for making a supercar or the people that drive supercars, why not be happy for them? The production of supercars uncovers technology that often appears in everyday cars. Area 419 makes high end products to produce the ultimate in accuracy. Now they want to build a new reloading press, good for them, why not cheer them on and see how it works in real life. It takes balls to start and run a company, risking your hard-earned money to make products you hope people will buy.

Truth be told, most shooters are not good enough to take full advantage of accuracy of standard production firearms and ammunition. Eliminating all sources of inaccuracy, beside the shooter, is a normal human desire.

Rant Off:

 

[flyer1a]

I'm not sure I follow how testing the Zero objectively versus other presses will be difficult? That's the exact data someone like myself would need before considering an investment like your press. And this is the data I think you would need for your own ability to market the press as being better than any other press besides how it feels.

Take 100 fired cases from a single rifle, in a generic caliber like 6.5 Creedmoor. Take 1 FL sizing die of known quality and reputation, i.e. Redding Type S bushing die or Forster FL non-bushing die. Using the same lube brand on each case, and best attempt to bump each case 0.002", size them on:
- Zero
- Co-Ax
- Rock Chucker
- Cheapo Lee
- Big Boss II, PraziPress, T7 Turret, etc

Measure and report the runout on each case.

Then do the same thing seating bullets. I don't care if you take those same cases and "stack" runout, i.e. load bullets into cases with high runout from sizing, or take 100 perfect sized cases with zero runout (which would eliminate the before and after variable of what induced the bullet runout).

Many people use $110 arbor presses to seat bullets, so prove to us that the Zero meets or exceeds loaded bullet runout compared to an arbor press or any of the above-mentioned single stage presses.

If you have a press that can best all the others out there both in sizing AND seating, then you will have a winner regardless of price. Just like owners can justify a TT or Prometheus or an AI (hehe) or whatever, they're not just paying for feel, they're paying for measureable performance and repeatability.

This is exactly the testing that Gavin at Ultimate Reloader has done and published, and exactly what you can expect.

I can say it again, I can say it louder, I can say it different ways, but what you're desiring is exactly what is going to take place. If you've read through more than a page of the thread you'll see this answer given as best I can.

The test, however, will not be blind. Blind and objective are not the same thing. It's virtually impossible to do blind testing of something like this as it requires real interaction.

 

[samb300]

This is exactly the testing that Gavin at Ultimate Reloader has done and published, and exactly what you can expect.

I can say it again, I can say it louder, I can say it different ways, but what you're desiring is exactly what is going to take place. If you've read through more than a page of the thread you'll see this answer given as best I can.

The test, however, will not be blind. Blind and objective are not the same thing. It's virtually impossible to do blind testing of something like this as it requires real interaction.

I agree that a blind test is pretty much impossible and makes no difference in a test like this. My questions/comments regarding testing were more towards a set of tests that would make sense as a way to prove whether or not the Zero yielded measureably better results. If you've covered that in detail and I missed in over the last 4 pages of forum and on social media, my bad.

I have to admit I'm a little confused that you're saying "there's no promise this improves your ammo." Then...what's the point? Maybe it's being cautious due to not having physical units assembled for testing, but if a press that is X times more expensive than its peers doesn't make better ammo, then why go through the effort in making it in the first place? To me, going down the rabbit hole is only worth it if the results are better. And when I say worth it I mean time, extra steps in the process, AND money. Like @Dthomas3523 has said many times, the $1200 is a drop in the bucket over the life of a shooter/reloader, so I don't think the cost really matters if it is netting something positive.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm not saying these things because I'm one of those guys that says "I'll never buy one, but...!" I'm genuinely interested, but in a skeptical way, that the juice will be worth the squeeze.

 

[Nimothy]

I have to go ahead and say it. Nothing in this game is cheap. I’m not made of money but I have $4k rifles that have $3k+ scopes on them. It’s called saving. You save for something and then you buy it. We ALL like good tools whether we can afford them at the drop of the hat or not. If you want it get it, in a time frame that works for your budget. But if you think of it like this. That 1200$ press will last you a lifetime. A lot of us spend twice that in barrels every year. Also you can recoup 300-400ish bucks by selling your coaax. So call it 900$ that’s what, 2-300 more than one barrel? My point is the pricing isn’t that off if you want to use nice tool. I will also say some of y’all are the biggest pessimistic cry baby bitches. You act like fucking Democrat social justice warrior feminists. “Why would area419 not work for for free for the betterment of our shooting community, how dare they innovate and then do it for profit” listen to yourselves, it’s pathetic. Don’t buy it if you think your equipment is “just as good” simple as that. I for one like that it’s a hard stop and not a cam over, holds 9 dies, has bearings. It also looks very nice. I will SAVE my money till fall this year and hopefully have enough to get one. The same way I did my rifles, my autotrickler set up, my scopes, my range fees, my barrels, my loading components, my truck etc.

 

[samb300]

I have to go ahead and say it. Nothing in this game is cheap. I’m not made of money but I have $4k rifles that have $3k+ scopes on them. It’s called saving. You save for something and then you buy it. We ALL like good tools whether we can afford them at the drop of the hat or not. If you want it get it, in a time frame that works for your budget. But if you think of it like this. That 1200$ press will last you a lifetime. A lot of us spend twice that in barrels every year. Also you can recoup 300-400ish bucks by selling your coaax. So call it 900$ that’s what, 2-300 more than one barrel? My point is the pricing isn’t that off if you want to use nice tool. I will also say some of y’all are the biggest pessimistic cry baby bitches. You act like fucking Democrat social justice warrior feminists. “Why would area419 not work for for free for the betterment of our shooting community, how dare they innovate and then do it for profit” listen to yourselves, it’s pathetic. Don’t buy it if you think your equipment is “just as good” simple as that. I for one like that it’s a hard stop and not a cam over, holds 9 dies, has bearings. It also looks very nice. I will SAVE my money till fall this year and hopefully have enough to get one. The same way I did my rifles, my autotrickler set up, my scopes, my range fees, my barrels, my loading components, my truck etc.

I think a big reason some people have this mindset is simply because they have $100-$300 presses that will also last a lifetime. There hasn't been reloading press "creep" like there has in rifle and scopes, where prices have gone up over the years to where a hot scope used to be $2000, then $3000, now $4600. Yes, there is the Prazipress at $900, but those are so niche that they're not mentioned in the same conversation as a Co-Ax or Rock Chucker because most people have no idea what they are.

I agree, save up, spend within your means, and mind your business. I can't afford a Ford Raptor like I see in the parking lot at every match, but that doesn't mean I hate those guys, I think that truck is f'ing awesome haha. I'm also not going to go on a Ford forum and bitch that Ford should make Raptors for $20k so I can afford one, or that they're stupid for even existing.

 

[lash]

Reading this thread, with very little chance that I’ll save up for one, it still struck me how aggressive some of the comments seemed. I’m not surprised really, having been on SH for many years, but it did make me wonder what purposes some people have for asking the questions that they do.

Anyway, I happened to check out this guy Gavin, since I normally don’t watch a lot of utoob vids and wouldn’t you know that the first vid that came up was comparing 14 reloading presses. Why I felt that it was pertinent to this thread is that he spends the first 7 minutes of his video explaining the methods and techniques he uses to compare one press to another.

For those of you that have doubts about his methods, I suggest you watch the first seven minutes of this video. It was enlightening.

 

[phlegethon]

It would be quite easy to test if a press could improve ammo performance. Just have someone load a significant number of rounds in press A and press B. Record which rounds were loaded in which. Hand them off to a thousand yard benchrest shooter and have them shoot groups with each lot, and don’t tell the shooter which rounds came from which press. There you go. Blinded test.

However, if a press could improve the performance of ammunition, it would likely be something like 0.01 MOA on such a test (and you’d need a staggering number of rounds to discern that). Remember that benchrest shooters have struggled to find any correlation between runout and performance.

And, I don’t hear Area 419 saying this will improve the accuracy of your ammunition. I hear them saying that if you want to spend a premium price for a really fucking nice press that will bring you a little joy every time you pull the handle, they will take your money. And that is very reasonable.

 

[samb300]

Reading this thread, with very little chance that I’ll save up for one, it still struck me how aggressive some of the comments seemed. I’m not surprised really, having been on SH for many years, but it did make me wonder what purposes some people have for asking the questions that they do.

Anyway, I happened to check out this guy Gavin, since I normally don’t watch a lot of utoob vids and wouldn’t you know that the first vid that came up was comparing 14 reloading presses. Why I felt that it was pertinent to this thread is that he spends the first 7 minutes of his video explaining the methods and techniques he uses to compare one press to another.

For those of you that have doubts about his methods, I suggest you watch the first seven minutes of this video. It was enlightening.

Yeah it's a really extensive and great test. He has an article to go along with it, as well as the results in a spreadsheet for anyone that is interested. Most of the presses actually do pretty well, and if you only size on the press and bullet seat on an arbor press, they're all really close in case runout performance.

https://ultimatereloader.com/2019/0...ng-presses-compared-single-stage-shootout/15/

 

[kthomas]

I have to go ahead and say it. Nothing in this game is cheap. I’m not made of money but I have $4k rifles that have $3k+ scopes on them. It’s called saving. You save for something and then you buy it. We ALL like good tools whether we can afford them at the drop of the hat or not. If you want it get it, in a time frame that works for your budget. But if you think of it like this. That 1200$ press will last you a lifetime. A lot of us spend twice that in barrels every year. Also you can recoup 300-400ish bucks by selling your coaax. So call it 900$ that’s what, 2-300 more than one barrel? My point is the pricing isn’t that off if you want to use nice tool. I will also say some of y’all are the biggest pessimistic cry baby bitches. You act like fucking Democrat social justice warrior feminists. “Why would area419 not work for for free for the betterment of our shooting community, how dare they innovate and then do it for profit” listen to yourselves, it’s pathetic. Don’t buy it if you think your equipment is “just as good” simple as that. I for one like that it’s a hard stop and not a cam over, holds 9 dies, has bearings. It also looks very nice. I will SAVE my money till fall this year and hopefully have enough to get one. The same way I did my rifles, my autotrickler set up, my scopes, my range fees, my barrels, my loading components, my truck etc.

I'm going to jump in here. Keep in mind I'm the guy who's wife thinks I have half a million dollars into this sport (I don't, but I'm sure it's in the six figures). I don't mind spending money on quality components, but there has to be a performance benefit.

First off, I applaud Area 419 coming out with what they see as an improvement on the other presses on the market. If it wasn't for ingenuity, we would still be stuck in caves smashing rocks together.

People are having open discussions, it's a new press, it's a very expensive press (compared to it's alternatives), and as such people are playing the dance and trying to figure out where this fits on the cost-benefit analysis. Yes, this sport is expensive, and yes, lots of us have plenty of money dumped into this sport. But I don't think most people are aimlessly throwing their money into the sport "just because". Generally people who have lots of money to spend on the sport aren't careless with their money - there has to be perceived benefits in order to justify such a purchase.

I think that's why there's lot of discussion in regards to what the performance of this press will be, when it's 3-4x the cost of what is considered the current standards. My Forster Co-ax is most likely going to last my lifetime. It makes excellent ammo, and as an end user, it's a simple and easy device to operate. For myself, there would have to be some sort of performance enhancement for me to spend $1200 on a press, when I already have one that does what I need. I think this is what people are trying to figure out - besides nice machining and build quality, what am I getting for $1200? Is there going to be any down range benefit? Or is it just something that will be nice to look at in the reloading room, with no real functional benefits?

Others in this thread brought up the CPS, a $600 primer. If that's worth it, then certainly this is. The issue I see with that argument is that other methods of priming sucks. I have a K&M hand primer, and that thing blows for comfort. I hate priming more then 100 pieces of brass with that. With a CPS - you can prime with precision while having absolute comfort, plus it's quicker. While it's a big price tag compared to the K&M hand primer, it's a definitive upgrade in end user performance. I don't own a CPS yet, but I think there's one in my future. I also own a Giraud trimmer and AMP annealer - expensive, but there's some big definitive advantages and benefits over the competition to justify the expense.

What will this press do for $1200 to enhance the end user experience and performance, to justify the cost over a Forster Co-ax? For myself, I don't see a big leap in performance or user experience to justify selling the Co-ax. My ammo is all sub 5 SD and 1/3 moa or better, am I going to see even better ballistic performance? Yeah, I understand the tolerances are much tighter, but what will that mean for the reloads? And for user experience, is it going to be much more enjoyable, comfortable or easier to use then say a Co-ax?

Again, I fully support A419 in this venture. But I myself don't see the value in it. I spend money when I know there will be a benefit from it. From what I'm seeing right now, I don't foresee myself buying this press. But I'm also not one to buy a $130 micarta loading block - it doesn't do anything my plastic $15 one doesn't, functionality wise. So there are people that like "nicer things" even when they don't have any really added functionality. I'm not one of them.

Ultimately the market will decide if this is press is a viable option at the current price. There may be enough people to think the cost justifies what they are getting as a product, and A419 can keep making them and selling them at that price. It will be interesting to see how successful it is, and I wish all the best to A419. I appreciate them taking the risk to come up with what they think is a better mouse trap.

 

[kthomas]

Reading this thread, with very little chance that I’ll save up for one, it still struck me how aggressive some of the comments seemed. I’m not surprised really, having been on SH for many years, but it did make me wonder what purposes some people have for asking the questions that they do.

Anyway, I happened to check out this guy Gavin, since I normally don’t watch a lot of utoob vids and wouldn’t you know that the first vid that came up was comparing 14 reloading presses. Why I felt that it was pertinent to this thread is that he spends the first 7 minutes of his video explaining the methods and techniques he uses to compare one press to another.

For those of you that have doubts about his methods, I suggest you watch the first seven minutes of this video. It was enlightening.

I'm going to check this guy out, never watched his stuff before.

I'm genuinely excited and curious to hear what he says about the A419 press.

 

[samb300]

I'm going to jump in here. Keep in mind I'm the guy who's wife thinks I have half a million dollars into this sport (I don't, but I'm sure it's in the six figures). I don't mind spending money on quality components, but there has to be a performance benefit.

First off, I applaud Area 419 coming out with what they see as an improvement on the other presses on the market. If it wasn't for ingenuity, we would still be stuck in caves smashing rocks together.

People are having open discussions, it's a new press, it's a very expensive press (compared to it's alternatives), and as such people are playing the dance and trying to figure out where this fits on the cost-benefit analysis. Yes, this sport is expensive, and yes, lots of us have plenty of money dumped into this sport. But I don't think most people are aimlessly throwing their money into the sport "just because". Generally people who have lots of money to spend on the sport aren't careless with their money - there has to be perceived benefits in order to justify such a purchase.

I think that's why there's lot of discussion in regards to what the performance of this press will be, when it's 3-4x the cost of what is considered the current standards. My Forster Co-ax is most likely going to last my lifetime. It makes excellent ammo, and as an end user, it's a simple and easy device to operate. For myself, there would have to be some sort of performance enhancement for me to spend $1200 on a press, when I already have one that does what I need. I think this is what people are trying to figure out - besides nice machining and build quality, what am I getting for $1200? Is there going to be any down range benefit? Or is it just something that will be nice to look at in the reloading room, with no real functional benefits?

Others in this thread brought up the CPS, a $600 primer. If that's worth it, then certainly this is. The issue I see with that argument is that other methods of priming sucks. I have a K&M hand primer, and that thing blows for comfort. I hate priming more then 100 pieces of brass with that. With a CPS - you can prime with precision while having absolute comfort, plus it's quicker. While it's a big price tag compared to the K&M hand primer, it's a definitive upgrade in end user performance. I don't own a CPS yet, but I think there's one in my future. I also own a Giraud trimmer and AMP annealer - expensive, but there's some big definitive advantages and benefits over the competition to justify the expense.

What will this press do for $1200 to enhance the end user experience and performance, to justify the cost over a Forster Co-ax? For myself, I don't see a big leap in performance or user experience to justify selling the Co-ax. My ammo is all sub 5 SD and 1/3 moa or better, am I going to see even better ballistic performance? Yeah, I understand the tolerances are much tighter, but what will that mean for the reloads? And for user experience, is it going to be much more enjoyable, comfortable or easier to use then say a Co-ax?

Again, I fully support A419 in this venture. But I myself don't see the value in it. I spend money when I know there will be a benefit from it. From what I'm seeing right now, I don't foresee myself buying this press. But I'm also not one to buy a $130 micarta loading block - it doesn't do anything my plastic $15 one doesn't, functionality wise. So there are people that like "nicer things" even when they don't have any really added functionality. I'm not one of them.

Ultimately the market will decide if this is press is a viable option at the current price. There may be enough people to think the cost justifies what they are getting as a product, and A419 can keep making them and selling them at that price. It will be interesting to see how successful it is, and I wish all the best to A419. I appreciate them taking the risk to come up with what they think is a better mouse trap.

Great comments.

Also...buy the CPS, you won't regret it. If you've already got a Giraud and an AMP, it's definitely the next tool that is leaps and bounds better.

 

[Nimothy]

I think a big reason some people have this mindset is simply because they have $100-$300 presses that will also last a lifetime. There hasn't been reloading press "creep" like there has in rifle and scopes, where prices have gone up over the years to where a hot scope used to be $2000, then $3000, now $4600. Yes, there is the Prazipress at $900, but those are so niche that they're not mentioned in the same conversation as a Co-Ax or Rock Chucker because most people have no idea what they are.

I agree, save up, spend within your means, and mind your business. I can't afford a Ford Raptor like I see in the parking lot at every match, but that doesn't mean I hate those guys, I think that truck is f'ing awesome haha. I'm also not going to go on a Ford forum and bitch that Ford should make Raptors for $20k so I can afford one, or that they're stupid for even existing.

Idk people say they have a rock chucker that lasts a life time, I agree it will but at what level of precision. Comfort is what I think the major factor here is. It’s not how good of ammo it produces. They have no control over what dies you use. They even say they like Redding in the video or on insta. I myself prefer Redding seaters and custom honed forester non bushing sizers. (If I have my all out choice). The point is people are getting hung up on quality of ammo, when I think the point is the quality of the tool. If it is really buttery smooth and my wrist doesn’t hurt after loading 300 cartridges on it. I’m sold. Also, it really looks nice (green on presses is a nasty color) before everyone gets all “I don’t care about looks” I see none of you running your rifles without a color of some sort. No one keeps the nasty bare firberglass on your stock or a non color/ clear finish on your chassis. It matters what it looks like! Also the primer collection seems cool and clean. Although I’ll probably still deprime on a progressive.

 

[Steel head]

Reading this thread, with very little chance that I’ll save up for one, it still struck me how aggressive some of the comments seemed. I’m not surprised really, having been on SH for many years, but it did make me wonder what purposes some people have for asking the questions that they do.

Anyway, I happened to check out this guy Gavin, since I normally don’t watch a lot of utoob vids and wouldn’t you know that the first vid that came up was comparing 14 reloading presses. Why I felt that it was pertinent to this thread is that he spends the first 7 minutes of his video explaining the methods and techniques he uses to compare one press to another.

For those of you that have doubts about his methods, I suggest you watch the first seven minutes of this video. It was enlightening.

That was actually a nice comparison he did.
I don’t doubt his testing abilities.
I’m just grumpy and easily irritated at times especially with the super excited reviewing types.

I dislike fireworks as well.

 

[want2learn]

I'm so often impressed by all the hard work and effort so often presented here. That said, i would imagine to optimize testing one could:

1) start with as close to the same cases as possible.
2) include a large N.
3) each case would be individually coded for future identification.
4) all the cases are presented to a study blinded tester who would then test/measure the cases at a separate venue from the prep/sizing facility.
5) only then would the identifying codes be identified and the data collated and compared.

 

[Steel head]

Honestly I could care less if it’s a tiny bit more precise than my current press.
I am however interested in force required, ease of use, how it handles primers and if it speeds up the process.

 

[Rhed]

Will the finish be polished aluminum?

 

[flyer1a]

Will the finish be polished aluminum?

We are still playing with what to do on finish of the body, but any raw aluminum is unlikely simply because of how sensitive it is to surface scratching and dulling.

 

[lash]

We are still playing with what to do on finish of the body, but any raw aluminum is unlikely simply because of how sensitive it is to surface scratching and dulling.

I vote for clear anodizing, because it would look awesome. However, my vote should not count because I am a poor that will probably not buy your gorgeous looking press.

And yes, I confess that I do fall into the group of those that like nice tools built well.

 

[Steel head]

I vote for clear anodizing, because it would look awesome. However, my vote should not count because I am a poor that will probably not buy your gorgeous looking press.

And yes, I confess that I do fall into the group of those that like nice tools built well.

Same group

 

[SkyScrapin]

As much as I like A419 gear, I see a potential concern around the primer "chute" through the middle of the press. Unless it's oversized for a flattened to hell primer, it could cause stoppages which would slow down the reloading process. I'm guessing this is something they have thought through, but I can tell you it's a problem with the Co-Ax, and I'm hoping it's not an issue with this sucker.

Pending feedback, I'd be down for 1.

If they build a Cheytac capable system - in for another.

 

[Nimothy]

We are still playing with what to do on finish of the body, but any raw aluminum is unlikely simply because of how sensitive it is to surface scratching and dulling.

Can I get a vote in for the gold color that’s on your knob for the arca lock? Or offering it in color runs?

 

[Rhed]

We are still playing with what to do on finish of the body, but any raw aluminum is unlikely simply because of how sensitive it is to surface scratching and dulling.

I wouldn’t mind a polished finished. Wouldn’t be hard to polish once a week.. though, others might have different likes. Thanks..

 

[lash]

Here’s an interesting take on the cost of the A419 press and its value versus what a premium press cost many years ago. So, I own an old Hollywood Senior press that I still use today. I found out that in 1979 that press cost $179 new. So a quick check of value of money shows that $179 in 1979 money is worth over $1200 today. Many people paid that for this press.

An interesting take, no?

 

[flyer1a]

As much as I like A419 gear, I see a potential concern around the primer "chute" through the middle of the press. Unless it's oversized for a flattened to hell primer, it could cause stoppages which would slow down the reloading process. I'm guessing this is something they have thought through, but I can tell you it's a problem with the Co-Ax, and I'm hoping it's not an issue with this sucker.

Pending feedback, I'd be down for 1.

If they build a Cheytac capable system - in for another.

The primer chute is 1/2" in diameter, you could drop a whole case through it if not for the turn!

 

[Cote0321]

Alright, I've heard enough and I'm gonna butt out after this post before this all goes to shit.

I know everyone wants to defend the Area419 team. As I normally would too. This started as me not getting my question answered for quite a while.

But now that some wanna get defensive about it, I'll play. Some are ignoring the fake news. Too much time in quarantine watching CNN I guess. I've taken the time to re-watch the entire live unveiling and take some notes as I figured it'd offer proof to what I've been saying about big claims and bold statements. I was right. I'll post them down below and wait for the rest of you to discuss it. I'll leave the facts and let the rest of you make your opinions of what's going on here.

Video Notes
- Opens video trying to justify price vs Giraud and AMP products
*My Opinion: there's no need to justify it, those that know what goes into it will gladly pay up IF it offers an improvement.

- Says "floating is a trending COP OUT"
*mmmmmm how? because it works?
2 Most popular presses (arguably) say otherwise
- Co-Ax: pretty much everything floats/self aligns
- T7: there's intentional slop/float built between turret plate and body to allow proper alignment on each stroke.

"The whole concept of floating tools is a copout. It just means that somebody can't hold the appropriate tolerance."

"loading on a Dillon is kinda like shooting an AK, the thing works cuz it just kinda flops and slams together" "But when you're trying to reload at the level of precision that we're looking for with the ZERO, use the things with appropriate clearances and tolerances."
*this one is where you start to see/toe the line of implying your press improves ammo or something

- I know nothing about finishes/finishing so I'm speculating here, but won't anything other than raw material finishes here mess with the tolerances spoken of? "less than 1 thou" on some parts. I don't know man.. smells weird. Most anything in the world that no shit requires these type of tolerances remain unfinished, super polished, and are maintained/lubricated CONSTANTLY to remain functioning.
*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling.

"Effectively a frictionless system"
"Perfect from a tolerance stand point"
"We've got a zero tolerance system"
"Dirt just won't be able to get in the linear bearing"

my favorite....
"This is not how do we take something else and make it shiny? This is how do we re-imagine how the press works?"
*Opinion: You haven't re-imagined or changed anything. You're planning to machine to a tighter tolerance, added some bearings, and asked yourselves.. people are paying over a grand for reloading components...What's not out there yet? Good business, but not gonna be left unsaid. It's a single stage press, not a unicorn that shits laser guided ammo.

As you can all clearly see, those of us that are questioning things are not trying to put words in their mouths. We have heard big words and they've raised quite the expectation.

Like I said, I'd lay out the facts of what I've seen and what's been said and then I'd butt out. Feel free to jump on me and think I'm an ass, but let's not ignore the like 5 or more companies shit on in the unveiling video.

-Craig spent that whole video talking shit, being misleading, and speaking condescendingly to potential customer questions/comments. Constant back handing of products and ideas not of his own. Almost an arrogance toward everything else. Then comes here does the same. It's all about tone and attitude, stud.
-Jon spent the video giving information, honesty, and trying not to let Craig too far away from the truth. You can hear it in is tone, little worried when Craig go t going on some things.

Maybe I read too deep, maybe I just expect more out of people in those positions. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

 

[lash]

Man, you really gotta un-bunch your panties a bit. You seem a bit wound up over all of this. It’s only a thing you can choose to buy or not to buy, but instead you made it your last two days life’s work. You need to take life a little less seriously... Seriously.

 

[Threadcutter308]

“*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling”.

........jeebuz krist.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Alright, I've heard enough and I'm gonna butt out after this post before this all goes to shit.

I know everyone wants to defend the Area419 team. As I normally would too. This started as me not getting my question answered for quite a while.

But now that some wanna get defensive about it, I'll play. Some are ignoring the fake news. Too much time in quarantine watching CNN I guess. I've taken the time to re-watch the entire live unveiling and take some notes as I figured it'd offer proof to what I've been saying about big claims and bold statements. I was right. I'll post them down below and wait for the rest of you to discuss it. I'll leave the facts and let the rest of you make your opinions of what's going on here.

Video Notes
- Opens video trying to justify price vs Giraud and AMP products
*My Opinion: there's no need to justify it, those that know what goes into it will gladly pay up IF it offers an improvement.

- Says "floating is a trending COP OUT"
*mmmmmm how? because it works?
2 Most popular presses (arguably) say otherwise
- Co-Ax: pretty much everything floats/self aligns
- T7: there's intentional slop/float built between turret plate and body to allow proper alignment on each stroke.

"The whole concept of floating tools is a copout. It just means that somebody can't hold the appropriate tolerance."

"loading on a Dillon is kinda like shooting an AK, the thing works cuz it just kinda flops and slams together" "But when you're trying to reload at the level of precision that we're looking for with the ZERO, use the things with appropriate clearances and tolerances."
*this one is where you start to see/toe the line of implying your press improves ammo or something

- I know nothing about finishes/finishing so I'm speculating here, but won't anything other than raw material finishes here mess with the tolerances spoken of? "less than 1 thou" on some parts. I don't know man.. smells weird. Most anything in the world that no shit requires these type of tolerances remain unfinished, super polished, and are maintained/lubricated CONSTANTLY to remain functioning.
*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling.

"Effectively a frictionless system"
"Perfect from a tolerance stand point"
"We've got a zero tolerance system"
"Dirt just won't be able to get in the linear bearing"

my favorite....
"This is not how do we take something else and make it shiny? This is how do we re-imagine how the press works?"
*Opinion: You haven't re-imagined or changed anything. You're planning to machine to a tighter tolerance, added some bearings, and asked yourselves.. people are paying over a grand for reloading components...What's not out there yet? Good business, but not gonna be left unsaid. It's a single stage press, not a unicorn that shits laser guided ammo.

As you can all clearly see, those of us that are questioning things are not trying to put words in their mouths. We have heard big words and they've raised quite the expectation.

Like I said, I'd lay out the facts of what I've seen and what's been said and then I'd butt out. Feel free to jump on me and think I'm an ass, but let's not ignore the like 5 or more companies shit on in the unveiling video.

-Craig spent that whole video talking shit, being misleading, and speaking condescendingly to potential customer questions/comments. Constant back handing of products and ideas not of his own. Almost an arrogance toward everything else. Then comes here does the same. It's all about tone and attitude, stud.
-Jon spent the video giving information, honesty, and trying not to let Craig too far away from the truth. You can hear it in is tone, little worried when Craig go t going on some things.

Maybe I read too deep, maybe I just expect more out of people in those positions. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

Did you email or call with these complaints privately to 419?

Cause posts like this are why a lot of manufacturers don’t come to forums. It’s one thing to publicly ridicule if they have wronged you in some way and not made it right.

It’s another to just blow up over a reveal/hype video for no real reason.

 

[Threadcutter308]

Did you email or call with these complaints privately to 419?

Cause posts like this are why a lot of manufacturers don’t come to forums. It’s one thing to publicly ridicule if they have wronged you in some way and not made it right.

It’s another to just blow up over a reveal/hype video for no real reason.

Particularly when an individual has not purchased anything. Dog, meet hunt.

 

[flyer1a]

Alright, I've heard enough and I'm gonna butt out after this post before this all goes to shit.

I know everyone wants to defend the Area419 team. As I normally would too. This started as me not getting my question answered for quite a while.

But now that some wanna get defensive about it, I'll play. Some are ignoring the fake news. Too much time in quarantine watching CNN I guess. I've taken the time to re-watch the entire live unveiling and take some notes as I figured it'd offer proof to what I've been saying about big claims and bold statements. I was right. I'll post them down below and wait for the rest of you to discuss it. I'll leave the facts and let the rest of you make your opinions of what's going on here.

Video Notes
- Opens video trying to justify price vs Giraud and AMP products
*My Opinion: there's no need to justify it, those that know what goes into it will gladly pay up IF it offers an improvement.

- Says "floating is a trending COP OUT"
*mmmmmm how? because it works?
2 Most popular presses (arguably) say otherwise
- Co-Ax: pretty much everything floats/self aligns
- T7: there's intentional slop/float built between turret plate and body to allow proper alignment on each stroke.

"The whole concept of floating tools is a copout. It just means that somebody can't hold the appropriate tolerance."

"loading on a Dillon is kinda like shooting an AK, the thing works cuz it just kinda flops and slams together" "But when you're trying to reload at the level of precision that we're looking for with the ZERO, use the things with appropriate clearances and tolerances."
*this one is where you start to see/toe the line of implying your press improves ammo or something

- I know nothing about finishes/finishing so I'm speculating here, but won't anything other than raw material finishes here mess with the tolerances spoken of? "less than 1 thou" on some parts. I don't know man.. smells weird. Most anything in the world that no shit requires these type of tolerances remain unfinished, super polished, and are maintained/lubricated CONSTANTLY to remain functioning.
*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling.

"Effectively a frictionless system"
"Perfect from a tolerance stand point"
"We've got a zero tolerance system"
"Dirt just won't be able to get in the linear bearing"

my favorite....
"This is not how do we take something else and make it shiny? This is how do we re-imagine how the press works?"
*Opinion: You haven't re-imagined or changed anything. You're planning to machine to a tighter tolerance, added some bearings, and asked yourselves.. people are paying over a grand for reloading components...What's not out there yet? Good business, but not gonna be left unsaid. It's a single stage press, not a unicorn that shits laser guided ammo.

As you can all clearly see, those of us that are questioning things are not trying to put words in their mouths. We have heard big words and they've raised quite the expectation.

Like I said, I'd lay out the facts of what I've seen and what's been said and then I'd butt out. Feel free to jump on me and think I'm an ass, but let's not ignore the like 5 or more companies shit on in the unveiling video.

-Craig spent that whole video talking shit, being misleading, and speaking condescendingly to potential customer questions/comments. Constant back handing of products and ideas not of his own. Almost an arrogance toward everything else. Then comes here does the same. It's all about tone and attitude, stud.
-Jon spent the video giving information, honesty, and trying not to let Craig too far away from the truth. You can hear it in is tone, little worried when Craig go t going on some things.

Maybe I read too deep, maybe I just expect more out of people in those positions. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

I appreciate you having spent another hour watching the video.

Only a couple parts of this opinion-laden "fact" rant are meaningfully worth response, so here we go:

Finish - I appreciate that you lead by telling us you have no idea what you're talking about. Also, the finish of external/exposed surfaces, and the finish of critical surfaces are not necessarily required to be the same. Also worth noting, tolerance is about consistency of stacked variables. We could use a coating that was an inch thick, as long as it was perfectly an inch thick everywhere, and still have a repeatable tolerance part. There are PVD coatings that are applied incredibly consistently and measured in the microns on thickness if we want to do the whole thing that way, or certain areas can be maintained in other ways. But again, like you admitted, you "know nothing".

Do you care to enlighten me on when the Co-Ax hit the market, and look then at what sort of manufacturing technology was being used? It's important to understand the context in which people were working. Float can be useful, if you know you're working with wonky tolerances of random parts. If you can control them though, float is a cop out - which is kind of saying the same thing twice, so I digress.

The core of the press, the self-lubricating linear bearing is one that is rated for hard industrial use, including submerged use. While it's reasonable that things like primer dust stick to oily lubricants and gum up steel-on-steel rams, that's simply not going to be a reality here.

Your favorite....
Is there a press on the market today with a replaceable, locking head, not dependent on the alignment of threads? What about one allowing you to move through your complete range of motion on bearings? Name the nicest American-Made press, not from cast.

It seems you're upset with me personally, and that's ok. I'm not going to be too worked up about it. I actually appreciate you continuing to drive this thread and give me more opportunities to lay out the things we believe are special about this product for those who are meaningfully interested in making a purchase. If I've said it once, I've said it 50 times - if you don't think this product is for you, that's great, we don't expect everyone to buy it. We are going to produce it and let the market decide its viability.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Alright, I've heard enough and I'm gonna butt out after this post before this all goes to shit.

I know everyone wants to defend the Area419 team. As I normally would too. This started as me not getting my question answered for quite a while.

But now that some wanna get defensive about it, I'll play. Some are ignoring the fake news. Too much time in quarantine watching CNN I guess. I've taken the time to re-watch the entire live unveiling and take some notes as I figured it'd offer proof to what I've been saying about big claims and bold statements. I was right. I'll post them down below and wait for the rest of you to discuss it. I'll leave the facts and let the rest of you make your opinions of what's going on here.

Video Notes
- Opens video trying to justify price vs Giraud and AMP products
*My Opinion: there's no need to justify it, those that know what goes into it will gladly pay up IF it offers an improvement.

- Says "floating is a trending COP OUT"
*mmmmmm how? because it works?
2 Most popular presses (arguably) say otherwise
- Co-Ax: pretty much everything floats/self aligns
- T7: there's intentional slop/float built between turret plate and body to allow proper alignment on each stroke.

"The whole concept of floating tools is a copout. It just means that somebody can't hold the appropriate tolerance."

"loading on a Dillon is kinda like shooting an AK, the thing works cuz it just kinda flops and slams together" "But when you're trying to reload at the level of precision that we're looking for with the ZERO, use the things with appropriate clearances and tolerances."
*this one is where you start to see/toe the line of implying your press improves ammo or something

- I know nothing about finishes/finishing so I'm speculating here, but won't anything other than raw material finishes here mess with the tolerances spoken of? "less than 1 thou" on some parts. I don't know man.. smells weird. Most anything in the world that no shit requires these type of tolerances remain unfinished, super polished, and are maintained/lubricated CONSTANTLY to remain functioning.
*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling.

"Effectively a frictionless system"
"Perfect from a tolerance stand point"
"We've got a zero tolerance system"
"Dirt just won't be able to get in the linear bearing"

my favorite....
"This is not how do we take something else and make it shiny? This is how do we re-imagine how the press works?"
*Opinion: You haven't re-imagined or changed anything. You're planning to machine to a tighter tolerance, added some bearings, and asked yourselves.. people are paying over a grand for reloading components...What's not out there yet? Good business, but not gonna be left unsaid. It's a single stage press, not a unicorn that shits laser guided ammo.

As you can all clearly see, those of us that are questioning things are not trying to put words in their mouths. We have heard big words and they've raised quite the expectation.

Like I said, I'd lay out the facts of what I've seen and what's been said and then I'd butt out. Feel free to jump on me and think I'm an ass, but let's not ignore the like 5 or more companies shit on in the unveiling video.

-Craig spent that whole video talking shit, being misleading, and speaking condescendingly to potential customer questions/comments. Constant back handing of products and ideas not of his own. Almost an arrogance toward everything else. Then comes here does the same. It's all about tone and attitude, stud.
-Jon spent the video giving information, honesty, and trying not to let Craig too far away from the truth. You can hear it in is tone, little worried when Craig go t going on some things.

Maybe I read too deep, maybe I just expect more out of people in those positions. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

Damn Karen...

 

[Pixel_wasted]

Apologies if this has been answered,any idea on time frame of when this will be on the market?

 

[kriller134]

Alright, I've heard enough and I'm gonna butt out after this post before this all goes to shit.

I know everyone wants to defend the Area419 team. As I normally would too. This started as me not getting my question answered for quite a while.

But now that some wanna get defensive about it, I'll play. Some are ignoring the fake news. Too much time in quarantine watching CNN I guess. I've taken the time to re-watch the entire live unveiling and take some notes as I figured it'd offer proof to what I've been saying about big claims and bold statements. I was right. I'll post them down below and wait for the rest of you to discuss it. I'll leave the facts and let the rest of you make your opinions of what's going on here.

Video Notes
- Opens video trying to justify price vs Giraud and AMP products
*My Opinion: there's no need to justify it, those that know what goes into it will gladly pay up IF it offers an improvement.

- Says "floating is a trending COP OUT"
*mmmmmm how? because it works?
2 Most popular presses (arguably) say otherwise
- Co-Ax: pretty much everything floats/self aligns
- T7: there's intentional slop/float built between turret plate and body to allow proper alignment on each stroke.

"The whole concept of floating tools is a copout. It just means that somebody can't hold the appropriate tolerance."

"loading on a Dillon is kinda like shooting an AK, the thing works cuz it just kinda flops and slams together" "But when you're trying to reload at the level of precision that we're looking for with the ZERO, use the things with appropriate clearances and tolerances."
*this one is where you start to see/toe the line of implying your press improves ammo or something

- I know nothing about finishes/finishing so I'm speculating here, but won't anything other than raw material finishes here mess with the tolerances spoken of? "less than 1 thou" on some parts. I don't know man.. smells weird. Most anything in the world that no shit requires these type of tolerances remain unfinished, super polished, and are maintained/lubricated CONSTANTLY to remain functioning.
*Opinion: I'd like to see full stainless, and I'd pay the difference too, IF there's improvement shown compared to other presses. Less surface maintenance, less chances of galling.

"Effectively a frictionless system"
"Perfect from a tolerance stand point"
"We've got a zero tolerance system"
"Dirt just won't be able to get in the linear bearing"

my favorite....
"This is not how do we take something else and make it shiny? This is how do we re-imagine how the press works?"
*Opinion: You haven't re-imagined or changed anything. You're planning to machine to a tighter tolerance, added some bearings, and asked yourselves.. people are paying over a grand for reloading components...What's not out there yet? Good business, but not gonna be left unsaid. It's a single stage press, not a unicorn that shits laser guided ammo.

As you can all clearly see, those of us that are questioning things are not trying to put words in their mouths. We have heard big words and they've raised quite the expectation.

Like I said, I'd lay out the facts of what I've seen and what's been said and then I'd butt out. Feel free to jump on me and think I'm an ass, but let's not ignore the like 5 or more companies shit on in the unveiling video.

-Craig spent that whole video talking shit, being misleading, and speaking condescendingly to potential customer questions/comments. Constant back handing of products and ideas not of his own. Almost an arrogance toward everything else. Then comes here does the same. It's all about tone and attitude, stud.
-Jon spent the video giving information, honesty, and trying not to let Craig too far away from the truth. You can hear it in is tone, little worried when Craig go t going on some things.

Maybe I read too deep, maybe I just expect more out of people in those positions. I don't know.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

 

[lash]

Apologies if this has been answered,any idea on time frame of when this will be on the market?

I don’t remember seeing a date, nor do I expect that you will get one. It seems that they know that there is so much than can and will affect a release date and they are still in the development stages. It would actually be silly for them to throw a date out now. People will always crucify you for missing a date, even if you shouted from the rooftops that it will probably change.

This post talks about next steps:

I'll also tell you guys where the first few presses will go - you'll maybe never see one of these, as we make first articles to be critiqued and changed, but I'll for sure tell you about them.

One will obviously live on our reloading bench. We are going to use it to reload, and we will also run totally unrealistic stress tests on it for material selection reasons. We have a few different grades/alloys of aluminum we will test to see what will generate the best overall solution.

Another will head to Josh Lapin at Copper Creek. He puts thousands of pulls on a handle in a given week. He also has a camera roll full of failures featuring every press made. He will be able to do a normal person's lifetime of loading in just a few weeks.

We will send a press or two to some friends that are at the very top of precision shooting in F-Class and BR. Paper is a LOT less forgiving. As will be the critiques from these guys - who also own presses from Lenzi and those types.

Finally, one will go to Gavin. You may never see content on the pre-production model, but we want him to start to work with it. He has as much expertise across the selection of available presses as anyone, and will be able to provide constructive feedback that few others can.

Once we get these out and can make any needed tweaks, we will release final specs/details, start accepting pre-orders, and be in full-production on the units.

 

[flyer1a]

I don’t remember seeing a date, nor do I expect that you will get one. It seems that they know that there is so much than can and will affect a release date and they are still in the development stages. It would actually be silly for them to throw a date out now. People will always crucify you for missing a date, even if you shouted from the rooftops that it will probably change.

This post talks about next steps:

We have been generally saying June for pre-orders and August for shipping. We missed by a few weeks on Maverick, but aren’t going to be too skiddish on that.

People are gonna get mad about stuff no matter what, so we might as well give rough timing!

 

[Gustav7]

MAN!! What a thread! lol...

This is like watching Django Unchained, but reading it as a script.

Anyway, I'm done and I'll buy APA brakes from now on.

You know... your post came off a little uptight, and I get it, you obviously don't like this Craig guy...but now you're gonna stop buying one of the best muzzle brake systems because of this thread??? GETTTT TF outta here lol. I feel like at this point you're just enjoying the attention, whether good or bad.

 

[Pixel_wasted]

MAN!! What a thread! lol...

This is like watching Django Unchained, but reading it as a script.



You know... your post came off a little uptight, and I get it, you obviously don't like this Craig guy...but now you're gonna stop buying one of the best muzzle brake systems because of this thread??? GETTTT TF outta here lol. I feel like at this point you're just enjoying the attention, whether good or bad.

like watching django unchained but reading a script
????????

 

[b2lee]

I had a feeling it was him when you guys talked about a press reviewer in your release video. I think he does a great job with his reviews and I find them informative. There is something that kinda bugs me about him that I can’t put my finger on, but all in all he does great with good production value.

You probably are wondering where you know him from....you remember him from your childhood....and yes...he was the original guy in Blue's Clues.

 

[panhndl]

I think people forget that different people value different things.

If the only thing that is of value with a press is the quality of ammunition it is capable of producing, then you’re less likely find sufficient increase in value from your current set up.

There are other factors that people will definitely consider even if you do not. For example: I have arthritis in my hands, elbows and my shoulders have damage in them. I gave up reloading about 10 years ago for time. I have been considering getting back but have been very worried my body is going to rebel against me. This press intrigues me just from the ease of operation perspective.

I’m confident that Gavin guy will measure the forces required to operate the press and I’ll be able to make a judgement from there.

FYI- hand priming scares the hell out of me too.

 

[wbbh]

I think people forget that different people value different things.

If the only thing that is of value with a press is the quality of ammunition it is capable of producing, then you’re less likely find sufficient increase in value from your current set up.

There are other factors that people will definitely consider even if you do not. For example: I have arthritis in my hands, elbows and my shoulders have damage in them. I gave up reloading about 10 years ago for time. I have been considering getting back but have been very worried my body is going to rebel against me. This press intrigues me just from the ease of operation perspective.

I’m confident that Gavin guy will measure the forces required to operate the press and I’ll be able to make a judgement from there.

FYI- hand priming scares the hell out of me too.

I feel your pain, reloading is a second hobby to shooting, but I've got arthritis in my hands. The RCBS Bench primer works very well and is easier on your hands. I also find using a progressive press is a lot easier, one round per pull of the handle. One other thing to consider, using a small press like the 419, Harrel or an arbor press to load just a few precision rounds rather than bulk ammo production.