Rifle Scopes New Razor????
- Thread starter Tigerfan601
- Start date
Specs are here, note the part number: RZR-63602
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Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x 56mm Rifle Scope - EBR-7D
Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x 56mm Rifle Scope - EBR-7D - The intensity of long-range, tactical situations can push even the best shooters to their limits. When that intensity defines your shooting experience, the Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 FFP offers the precision tools you need to act quickly...
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Not that anyone cares what I think (or do)... But at 3k, it's not the value proposition I was hoping it would be, I hope there are some sales available, at $2500, I'd likely be interested, which is possible given that every vortex product is available (eventually) for less than MSRP.
Demo/used 7-35 ATACRs can be had for slightly less than 3k and second hand ZCOs and zeiss arent far off (assuming no tax on second hand sales). I'm sure the razor gen 3 will be a great scope, but for me, I'd likely lean towards the NF or ZCO. Time will tell, and I hope the razor can continue to provide shooters with a great value proposition.
Demo/used 7-35 ATACRs can be had for slightly less than 3k and second hand ZCOs and zeiss arent far off (assuming no tax on second hand sales). I'm sure the razor gen 3 will be a great scope, but for me, I'd likely lean towards the NF or ZCO. Time will tell, and I hope the razor can continue to provide shooters with a great value proposition.
Is that street price? Or simply a place holder? I understand if you can't elaborate at this time.
I bet it's a lot closer to street price. Look at how they price the G2 Razor vs the G2 MSRP.
Everyone saying it's over priced, how can you make that call knowing nothing but a few specs? I get it doesn't match your black dress and its heavy? Or are you stuck on the fact it's that price and made by Vortex? Maybe they need a Lexus line.
With the price increase of a G2 Razor to $2500ish posted in another it's seems like they'll be direct competitors to each other. Seems odd to me.
Right, keeping in mind the new $525 price adjustment.
As another thing to consider, someone called Vortex and they admitted they were making a scope to replace the AMG, which was most costly than the Gen2. So, this will no more compete with the Gen2 than when the AMG was around.
I mean the color is listed as "Stealth shadow" sounds like it may be black ish
I dont care about the color, and I'm not dogging the performance of it. I hope it performs spectacularly. And I don't care about brand names... I just know that I'm likey to move optics around and a 43 oz optic has less versatility than something weighing 5-10oz less. In the event I'd end up selling it (a definite possibility given this is a hobby and it's fun to try different things), I think ZCO and NF have better long-term resale from what I've seen (vs initial street price - I don't have relationships to lean on for discounts) so both of those factors are a consideration for me.
Until the reviews start rolling in, I won't assume that the razor will offer superior performance to the lighter, less expensive (currently), less depreciating ATACR. Obviously any of these things can change, but for me, the smart money, at this time, seems to on a used/demo ATACR.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, this scope hasn't even been announced by Vortex yet, let's let the Gen III get to the market before we make predictions on how good/not good it's going to be or whether it's worth the money and so forth.
Understood, and I think a lot will be thinking like you and would have assumed it would have been closer to the $2k street price; however, we are beginning to see all manufacturers raise prices across the board unfortunately. With regard to this Gen III let's wait and see how it will compare to the existing market. If the street price comes in at $3k then I'd have to think Vortex has a very good reason for pricing it as such, when Vortex first came out with the Gen II Razor there was a lot of excitement and the only real negative at the time was weight, but that didn't stop sales which seemingly went through the roof as Vortex could not keep up on manufacturing for well over a year. If this Gen III 6-36x56 is going to compete with the likes of the Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 yet offer better FOV, then why shouldn't it be priced accordingly? I would have to assume that Vortex engineers took a look at the ATACR, the ZCO and maybe every other top scope in the competition scene and designed this scope to be as good or better... for me personally, for a scope to be effective in the current competition scene it needs to have a forgiving eyebox along with forgiving DOF and parallax, this is something that almost all the alpha scopes exhibit, second to this would be wide FOV with excellent edge to edge clarity. Obviously the scope needs to track and I don't think Vortex has ever had an issue with this, but the idea of these new toolless turrets is intriguing and if executed well could shake things up, especially if their click feel is also alpha class worthy.
The value of the Gen II razor held it's own for several years, it wasn't until the market had been well saturated that we began to see the prices come way down. Gen II was introduced in 2014 and here we are in 2022 - 8 years is a long run for a scope (shhh don't tell S&B
) but if history proves itself, I do not think Vortex is going to stop manufacturing the Gen II Razors so those will continue to be available for the foreseeable future.I think this will be the case, it might hit a different niche in the market but I doubt in a few years anybody will be saying, "remember the Vortex Gen III and what a dud that was". I could be wrong, but just my thoughts
I'll do my best Ja
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To be honest, the Hide has been corrupted by a lot of yahoos over the past couple years. I joined almost 10 years ago because I found the community to be very helpful, especially to newb's - but now so many threads seem to be hostile towards anyone not in "your little clique" and are peppered with personal attacks, conjecture, negative opinions and worse. I guess it's the nature of the beast (online forums) but I have had to pull out of a number of threads because people don't want to learn so much as they just want to spout off their bias. I enjoy a good debate and realize we are all tainted by bias, but when threads just become badgering back and forth they lose their appeal and usefulness - that seems to be the nature of social media of late and why I've never liked social media but always thought this community was different.
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Sad but true…..I'll do my best Ja
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To be honest, the Hide has been corrupted by a lot of yahoos over the past couple years. I joined almost 10 years ago because I found the community to be very helpful, especially to newb's - but now so many threads seem to be hostile towards anyone not in "your little clique" and are peppered with personal attacks, conjecture, negative opinions and worse. I guess it's the nature of the beast (online forums) but I have had to pull out of a number of threads because people don't want to learn so much as they just want to spout off their bias. I enjoy a good debate and realize we are all tainted by bias, but when threads just become badgering back and forth they lose their appeal and usefulness - that seems to be the nature of social media of late and why I've never liked social media but always thought this community was different.
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To your earlier point about price increases, across the board. With the global supply chain the way it is, this time next year we might be shocked to see how prices have shifted upward, industry wide. I just had to raise one of my product’s prices 35%. My cost rocketed up nearly 50%
The pictures from the AG cup looks like they have stayed with the “Stool sample” coloringI mean the color is listed as "Stealth shadow" sounds like it may be black ish
The pictures from the AG cup looks like they have stayed with the “Stool sample” coloring
In person, the color looked the same to me.
I didn't get behind one out of respect to Nick and Scott, since I know them both, and I play for a different team.
The value of the Gen II razor held it's own for several years, it wasn't until the market had been well saturated that we began to see the prices come way down. Gen II was introduced in 2014 and here we are in 2022 - 8 years is a long run for a scope (shhh don't tell S&B
I agree with the above. I personally think its cool that Vortex keeps their production lines up for their old scopes. Yeah, from many accounts the XRSIII and XTRIII surpass this scope, and the Mk5HD already did as well for some eyes (all sans illumination) - but personally I am not buying a new Cronus BTR over a Razor Gen 2, lol. This scope still has its place and is outperforming scopes in its class and its 8 years old. And to that point - its 8 years old and has a 3k MSRP. The Gen 3 at 3k street price isn't meant to compete against the XRSIII or XTR3, or it would cost the same as them. Seems obvious to me...
Just my opinion of course, but half the Toms, Dicks and Harrys on the forum joined this thread to chastise a new scope they havent seen yet, I doubt one more opinion hurts.
It’s the internet we like to get ahead
I don’t see it as chastise but debate, is that not ok? My point is that 8 years ago the Gen2 paced the market with Japanese Glass and 27 power for $2500 or less when no one else did and people were wanting more than 24 power. Not just PRS shooters bought it, I know 8 guys that are shooting enthusiasts that have a Gen2 razor, that was the best for the money. We can argue FO or other aspects, I just don’t see the appeal for a $3k scope that is 6-36 with Japanese glass when you can get the same 6-36 power Japanese glass maybe from a different vendor for $1000+ less. Vortex has done a great job with things and I hope that the new razor is a hit, for me right now I’m on the fence if the street is $2800-$3k. The higher end you go you have diminishing return, maybe there is a market for $3k, but it won’t be as big when the Gen2 razor hit 8 years ago with the other scopes on the market weather you think it’s a direct competitor or not, if it’s 6-36x56 with with Japanese glass it’s in the discussion weather you want to talk about it or not.
Lots of people have been paying over 3k for Japanese glass, NF and March are both made in Japan.
If this was a new ATACR 6-36 people would be gushing over it but apparently a new Razor is just an overpriced diamondback.
People with 3k to spend on a scope don't care where the glass comes from, if it performs with the best then it doesn't really matter.
Wait, wat?
You know there is more to a scope than just magnification range and country of origin, right?
Of course we can debate.
Besides the fact we havent seen the scope, so in general this is a huge assumption...
This is the entire point - theres no free lunch in manufacturing - Vortex knows what it costs to produce a XTRIII vs the new Gen 3 Razor. Vortex didn't make a rebranded Bushnell XRSIII and then priced it twice as high just so they could lose a shit ton of market share to Bushnell. I dont compete, so I wont spend the extra money for this or a ZCO, TT, etc, and I really like Bushnell Elite line, it fits my needs well, but I'm also not foolish enough to think this is the same scope as the competition for double the money. Thats what all those hairbrained Arken fanbois think - or the redditors who claim theres basically no difference between any scope and a Cronus BTR until you buy a ZCO or TT.
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IMO even at 8+ years old, for the same money, the HDG2 is still a better scope than the Mark5's, XTR3, and XRS3. And, if it were to fuck up for some reason and I had a match this weekend, chances are more than likely Vortex would make sure I had a working one on my rifle by then (with the others.... not nearly as good of a bet).
Personally, besides just wanting the latest shit... there honestly doesn't appear to be much reason for me (or maybe anyone else) to ditch our Gen2's just yet. It will have to look pretty damn amazing for me to trade probably the most proven scope design of its kind available, plus ~$1000 or so more money... for a brand new unproven design with slightly better glass.
Actually, if the glass is that much better (which hopefully it is), I kind of wish they'd just strip down the current Gen2, sort of a "Gen2.1":
Just give us the new fancy glass and tool-less zero and call it a day.
Skip the 36x (since most of us will still be shooting at 15-18x 99% of the time anyways), skip the illumination (since like most, I've only turned mine on to see if it still works now and then), cap the windage, and take away the lockable turrets (not needed).
Personally, besides just wanting the latest shit... there honestly doesn't appear to be much reason for me (or maybe anyone else) to ditch our Gen2's just yet. It will have to look pretty damn amazing for me to trade probably the most proven scope design of its kind available, plus ~$1000 or so more money... for a brand new unproven design with slightly better glass.
Actually, if the glass is that much better (which hopefully it is), I kind of wish they'd just strip down the current Gen2, sort of a "Gen2.1":
Just give us the new fancy glass and tool-less zero and call it a day.
Skip the 36x (since most of us will still be shooting at 15-18x 99% of the time anyways), skip the illumination (since like most, I've only turned mine on to see if it still works now and then), cap the windage, and take away the lockable turrets (not needed).
I'm really excited about the prospect of a Gen III that's competitive with a 7-35 ATACR, and with better FOV, toolless zero, and a Vortex warranty to boot.
And if they offer the reticle for the Gen III in the HDG2, I'll be tempted to buy another one of those too.
Yeah, I'm all for upgrades too, I guess I might just be cynical. Sometimes these companies have a good thing going, and then they mess things up by trying to "do too much" as they say...
The fact that it has remained heavy is actually a huge tell IMO, as I tend to view that as maybe them not skimping on how it's constructed, and them deciding in the end that keeping the scope "robust" was more important than "lighter". Obviously they were aware their contemporaries were releasing lighter competing models, and that certain people had been asking for lightness (even though I'm not even sure those folks knew why they wanted that so bad).
It'll still be kind of a tank, which is great news if you're someone who might end up throwing one in the back of a truck and driving a state or two over to go blow
I'll do a live show on the scope when Vortex finally releases it. I have not spent all that much time with it, but I have looked at it very carefully, so it will be a "first look" of sorts.
I am not supposed to go into the specifics until then, so I won't. I will say a couple of things though: it is not the same 6-36x design as I see from other makers. I have seen them side-by-side. Based on what I am seeing, I do not think it is overpriced.
ILya
This is the issue. The XTR and MK5 and the Razors are in 3 different markets. Burris and Mk5 are close. I’ve never liked Burris. I own several mk5s. They are great for what they are. Folks get to comparing shit that’s nowhere near the same.
“My arken is just as good as your TT considering the price difference”. No. You didn’t wanna spend the money for top tier and are happy with your Arken. That’s cool. Just call it what it is. I like my mk5s. They can’t hang with ZCOs or TTs. My kahles is nicer than my mk5s etc.
Hate to see the big price increases on the Gen 2 razors. They were finally starting to be priced really nice on the used market.
My biggest complaint has been weight. Glass is great and it’s about the only reliable scope vortex makes that will take a beating(get mad but you know why folks praise their warranty. Cuz so many have to use it).
I may swap to a Gen 2 razor on my PRS(I’m a want to be. I suck at it. I’m a hunter) rifle. I’ve currently got a 5-25 Mk5 PR2 mil on it. May move that to a hunting gun that’s wearing a 3-18 Mk5. I’ll wait to see what this Gen 3 looks like.
Love em or hate em. Vortex keeps the competition on their toes with the razor line.
Looks like Euro has them posted along with $4k MSRP
www.eurooptic.com
Don’t really have a dog in this fight as I never figured the next one would be significantly lighter.
Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 FFP EBR-7D MRAD Riflescope RZR-63602
Buy Vortex Razor HD Gen III 6-36x56 FFP EBR-7D MRAD Riflescope. Vortex Razor Gen 3 comes equipped with Vortex’s advanced L-Tec+ Zero stop System which is composed of captive parts & one screw set. Call 570-368-3920 for best price on Vortex rifle Scope.
Don’t really have a dog in this fight as I never figured the next one would be significantly lighter.
Cat's finally out of the bag, so here they are fellas - should have some to ship out any day!
RAZOR GEN III 6-36x56 MOA
RAZOR GEN III 6-36x56 MRAD
I have been shooting it for a bit - I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you get behind one
You forgot the link to your video.
Cat's finally out of the bag, so here they are fellas - should have some to ship out any day!
RAZOR GEN III 6-36x56 MOA
RAZOR GEN III 6-36x56 MRAD
I have been shooting it for a bit - I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you get behind one
Didn't see a mention of better glass, yet priced above ZCO. Have to believe they upgraded the glass for that price - why not tout it... to protect G2? Or perhaps they silently upgraded the glass in the G2 as well?
$2999 is more than a ZCO? MSRP is not street price.
For all with issues between MSRP and MAP. MSRP is NOT street price. The MAP is $2999 and what it will be on the street. You can see that in the EuroOptic's link. Less than a ZCO. LOL
Yeah, I saw that after the fact. Already nicer than the ATACR because the whole ocular doesn't rotate
What's the point of having an MSRP if street price on day 1 is 25% off...I think the point still applies with regard to glass - it's 2X the street price of the G2, which is also increasing by ~500? Thinking optimistically, I expect the glass is upgraded on both.
MSRPs have always been higher. Not just on these scopes. Look around some.
I think the point still applies with regard to glass - it's 2X the street price of the G2, which is also increasing by ~500? Thinking optimistically, I expect the glass is upgraded on both.
Street price of the Razor II is $1999. You can find them cheaper but that is the listed MAP. The Gen III is $2999. The glass is better on the Gen III as are the power range, lower parallax and a few other features. You don;t bring out a new scope and price them the same as the older model.
Watch the Europtic video. Says same glass as the 1-10 gen 3 which is better than the g2.
I think the point still applies with regard to glass - it's 2X the street price of the G2, which is also increasing by ~500? Thinking optimistically, I expect the glass is upgraded on both.
If you're only going to watch one video watch the Europtic one. It's better than the Vortex videos.
I find it interesting that they didn't revamp the 3-18, I 'd have thought they'd want to compete with the lower magnification ATACRs, S&Bs, and ZCO.
I guess they don't think there's much market for a 3-18 scope that weighs 3lbs.
Wonder if they have something else in mind to fill the niche.
I guess they don't think there's much market for a 3-18 scope that weighs 3lbs.
Wonder if they have something else in mind to fill the niche.
Better, but definitely not unbiased
I'm sure it's going to be a great scope, but given the available info, the value equation appears to have come down, positioning it closer to NF, which may be exactly what the mktg dept is shooting for.
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Those vortex freebie certs are gunna be grabbed a little bit earlier now...
IMO, so far, the biggest news is our Gen2's are now worth $500 more than they were yesterday.
