Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

[Guns&WhiteWater]

I miss when PMIIs could be had for under 3

I do too. I picked up a PMII 5-25 during the EO blowout a few years ago. Should have purchased two of them.

 

[pucker]

I don’t think you were being misleading. I still don’t know if they actually updated the eyepiece, there was talk of that here but S&B never said anything about it that I can find and EO still has the 17ft FOV for now.
It would make sense that they are more expensive because of that but all I can find from S&B is that they now have a metal ocular and mag ring instead of rubber, like on the 5-20 ultra short.

Yes…but the idea persists.

Trying to confirm via someone that actually looked through it.

I’m with Glassaholic… a complete redesign (required to remove the tunneling) makes no sense when bringing 6-36 to market… unless there’s a huge price difference.

People keep mentioning how the 5-25 is updated (tunneling, tumor, mag ring)…but again, nobody has actually seen that or even heard S&B claim it.

But here we are MONTHS later still regurgitating it.

As much as we want it, it ain’t happening. It would just compete with the new favorite child (6-36).

 

[Nik H]

People keep mentioning how the 5-25 is updated (tunneling, tumor, mag ring)…but again, nobody has actually seen that or even heard S&B claim it.

But here we are MONTHS later still regurgitating it.

As much as we want it, it ain’t happening. It would just compete with the new favorite child (6-36).

Stop making sense...it goes against the rules...LOL

 

[clonebuilder]

People keep mentioning how the 5-25 is updated (tunneling, tumor, mag ring)…but again, nobody has actually seen that or even heard S&B claim it.

But here we are MONTHS later still regurgitating it.

As much as we want it, it ain’t happening. It would just compete with the new favorite child (6-36).

It comes directly from Jerry Ricker at S&B Virginia. Call him and ask.

 

[BCX]

It makes you wonder how high prices will go …. Nothing wrong w buying used and saving some cash.

 

[clonebuilder]

It makes you wonder how high prices will go …. Nothing wrong w buying used and saving some cash.

Yeah at least for my TacOps i can still get the legacy ones through Mike. I think for the 6-36 if it turns out to be a smash hit, I wont be complaining too too much about the price.

 

[lte82]

If a $3000 razor 3 is a great value, then a $5000 Schmidt 6-36 with DT2+ MTC is really not a terrible value. Tangent 7-35 is pushing $6500?

I’ve had the Minox ZP5 and TT 5-25 and I could not make out a discernible difference between them optically and would say they are both a step above PM II 5-25, ZCO also above PM II but under TT/ZP5 in some areas. What that means is they are all phenomenal.

I’ve had a few Minox ZP5s and none of them were as good optically as my Schmidt 5-25s. That said, they do in fact make a great scope and I would put them just below TT, ZCO, Schmidt. Maybe more in the NF 7-35 realm but with worse turrets and less durability. I broke two of them, and I've heard several local folks breaking them as well, which is the only reason those folks switched. Too many mechanical failures and they seem "fragile" compared to other high end tactical scopes. One of mine broke on the first shot on a 6.5 PRC. Parallax lens came loose lol.

 

[clonebuilder]

If a $3000 razor 3 is a great value, then a $5000 Schmidt 6-36 with DT2+ MTC is really not a terrible value. Tangent 7-35 is pushing $6500?

I’ve had a few Minox ZP5s and none of them were as good optically as my Schmidt 5-25s. That said, they do in fact make a great scope and I would put them just below TT, ZCO, Schmidt. Maybe more in the NF 7-35 realm but with worse turrets and less durability. I broke two of them, and I've heard several local folks breaking them as well, which is the only reason those folks switched. Too many mechanical failures and they seem "fragile" compared to other high end tactical scopes. One of mine broke on the first shot on a 6.5 PRC. Parallax lens came loose lol.

TT525s with Coyote Tan and Horus reticles right now are pushing into the 6K range so yeah lmao the 7-35 is going to be in 5-45 High Power Territory price wise.

 

[TheOE800]

$5700 MAP. Find yourself a guy and the TT will cost less than the Schmidt. Though if you find a Schmidt guy…

 

[clonebuilder]

$5700 MAP. Find yourself a guy and the TT will cost less than the Schmidt. Though if you find a Schmidt guy…

That’s about to hit 6 with the coming price increase lol. I have the price list.

 

[TheOE800]

That’s about to hit 6 with the coming price increase lol. I have the price list.

Find you a high volume friend then and you’ll still be under.

 

[Glassaholic]

Talk to @MOUNTIC if you want good TT prices

 

[clonebuilder]

Talk to @MOUNTIC if you want good TT prices

Yeah, i'll have to think about the TT735P but uh i'm not really a fan of TT's existing reticle options. Hopefully that changes and they add MSR2 or something else by the time I talk to Mike about getting a Tac-70 in .338 Lap/Norma.

 

[Glassaholic]

I’ve had a few Minox ZP5s and none of them were as good optically as my Schmidt 5-25s.

I've heard that from some others as well. Mine were better than Schmidt's (optically), guess I got lucky. They really don't make much of a dent in current interest, certainly not new, making them somewhat irrelevant in a high end conversation today.

 

[clonebuilder]

I've heard that from some others as well. Mine were better than Schmidt's (optically), guess I got lucky. They really don't make much of a dent in current interest, certainly not new, making them somewhat irrelevant in a high end conversation today.

I dont think it's luck, I think people just have different eyes.

 

[Tikkaguy]

Currently have a zp5 5-25. It pretty easily better than my 3-20 non us pmii. Even tho the pmii is no slouch. My buddy kinda wants my zp5. So I may do that and buy another with the thlr reticle. I looked back into the 5-25 pmii. But I like the do stationary hunting with my trg 22. And I would like the Added fov for scanning. Only scopes I’ve been happy with for the money are the optronika line of scopes pmii zp5 and premier. I don’t easily get eye strain from looking through them for long periods of time. And I’ve played with a lot of nice scopes

 

[Glassaholic]

my 3-20 non us pmii.

While I like the US 3-20 I love the non-US 3-20, it was my very first Schmidt scope from years ago so maybe a bit of nostalgia but it did "outperform" my ultra short with regard to overall IQ and was a bit more forgiving with DOF. EO offered one a few years ago with MSR2 reticle when prices were crazy low (compared to today) and I kick myself because they never offered them again with that reticle and now you can't even find them new here in the states.

 

[clonebuilder]

I just realized the 6-36 will probably be fairly priced if you call Eurooptic and ask them how low they can go on price. Should probably bring it down below 5

 

[Huskydriver]

I just realized the 6-36 will probably be fairly priced if you call Eurooptic and ask them how low they can go on price. Should probably bring it down below 5

If I had to guess it's because other vendors like @CSTactical and @gr8fuldoug are able to order from SB now and it's no longer exclusively Europtic.

 

[TheOE800]

If I had to guess it's because other vendors like @CSTactical and @gr8fuldoug are able to order from SB now and it's no longer exclusively Europtic.

Tax kills the deal with Euro, always. Need FFL friend to pass the savings.

 

[clonebuilder]

If I had to guess it's because other vendors like @CSTactical and @gr8fuldoug are able to order from SB now and it's no longer exclusively Europtic.

Nah they were doing that when they were sole distributor too. Took off nearly 400-500 off list price on some of the 5-25s and 3-20s

 

[TheOE800]

Nah they were doing that when they were sole distributor too. Took off nearly 400-500 off list price on some of the 5-25s and 3-20s

A quick conversation goes a long way in this industry.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

My perspective is that TT is overpriced and S&B wanted to resume the mantle of the best so they blew past TT’s pricing.

TT seems overpriced as 1) ZCO is on par with it and 2) Frank, in a recent HideTV vid, said that the TT is expensive due to the previous owners being $5m in debt. So Armament Technology, the new owner, had to price the TT high to dig out of that debt.

At about 1:17:50 in that vid he and Mark start talking about scopes and within a few minutes he says (paraphrasing), “The TT is a $2800 scope in a $4250 package.” He does say it’s a good scope, but also adds that one should spend only from $2k-$3k on a scope.

Anyway, $4k seems to be the “vibe” where top end scopes are settling at. At least that’s the signal/vibe I’m feeling, and I feel $4k is at “aspirational” pricing (i.e. a little overpriced) while TT & especially S&B are deep into clown pricing territory. Basically testing to see what they can scam get away with.

BTW the HideTV service is moving to another provider so the link in the current nav goes somewhere else. That somewhere else doesn’t seem to recognize my SH credentials (and perhaps yours). The link I provided is at the old url.

But the market will bear what people will pay. My 2 cents.

Mark is sniffing glue if he thinks the TT is a 2800 scope. That is one of the more retarded things I have read here. Should it be $5k? I don't think so. It's right there with ZCO and worth every bit of $4k. I sold mine due to how thin the reticle was but everything else about it screams first class. S&B needs to step up their quality and lower their prices or they are going to join the other companies who think their reputations from a decade ago warrant them being priced above the competition.

 

[Tikkaguy]

While I like the US 3-20 I love the non-US 3-20, it was my very first Schmidt scope from years ago so maybe a bit of nostalgia but it did "outperform" my ultra short with regard to overall IQ and was a bit more forgiving with DOF. EO offered one a few years ago with MSR2 reticle when prices were crazy low (compared to today) and I kick myself because they never offered them again with that reticle and now you can't even find them new here in the states.

Yeah I really like mine. Mine is a first gen msr ret. I really like it. I would kill for one with a msr2. I have never compared it to a 5-25 kinda curious

 

[cjs88]

If I had to guess it's because other vendors like @CSTactical and @gr8fuldoug are able to order from SB now and it's no longer exclusively Europtic.

Wait, for reals?!?!

 

[carbonbased]

Mark is sniffing glue if he thinks the TT is a 2800 scope. That is one of the more retarded things I have read here. Should it be $5k? I don't think so. It's right there with ZCO and worth every bit of $4k.

Frank said that, not Mark.

 

[Dogtown]

A quick conversation goes a long way in this industry.

I pay the misanthropic tax every time.

 

[clonebuilder]

Mark is sniffing glue if he thinks the TT is a 2800 scope. That is one of the more retarded things I have read here. Should it be $5k? I don't think so. It's right there with ZCO and worth every bit of $4k. I sold mine due to how thin the reticle was but everything else about it screams first class. S&B needs to step up their quality and lower their prices or they are going to join the other companies who think their reputations from a decade ago warrant them being priced above the competition.

Well, there was a very good point brought up by someone about TT/Premier being in massive debt when ATI acquired them so the truth is somewhere in between. I think 4300 is fair

 

[lte82]

S&B needs to step up their quality and lower their prices or they are going to join the other companies who think their reputations from a decade ago warrant them being priced above the competition.

The 6-36 can come with DT2+ turrets, which are some of the best out there, 40 mil of elevation, relocated illumination knob, no tunneling, alpha level glass, great warranty, great service dept in the states (Jerry)... what do you suggest they do to "up their quality" beyond what they already have?

 

[carbonbased]

Well, there was a very good point brought up by someone about TT/Premier being in massive debt when ATI acquired them so the truth is somewhere in between. I think 4300 is fair

I think what Frank is hinting at here, and this is a big big guess, is that even the best scopes have acceptable profit margins when sold at ~$3k. Everything after that is either gravy or is put towards servicing existing debt.

I don’t think he was slamming the TT’s image/build quality. He said they’re good scopes.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Their glass is still behind TT/ZCO. I have owned a few PM2s over the years and have looked through a few side by side with ZCO and TT in actual terrain where IQ makes a difference. Even the G3 razor looks better than any of the PM2 5-25's I have owned or looked through.

The S&B were like someone turned the lights out in comparison, finding targets was much harder and the smaller FOV sucked.

They need better glass, They need better reticles, they need to drop prices. Those 3 things keep them in the has been categories and not competitive with the ZCO/TT today.

 

[ma smith]

Its almost like EU pols do not want "police military-II" optics sold to US civilians

 

[carbonbased]

I’m too lazy to check if someone has already posted this, but here is the S&B official list of updated items on their 5-25:

Riflescopes - New Products - 5-25x56 PM II - NEW

www.schmidtundbender.de

1. Metal mag ring
2. “…the diopter has been redesigned in order to attach our military grade Polarization Filter Ocular via a thread. The ribbed structure of the diopter adjustment makes it suitable for the tactical Tenebraex Ocular Lens Cover.”
3. Flat turrets (D27)
4. P5FL Reticle

 

[clonebuilder]

Their glass is still behind TT/ZCO. I have owned a few PM2s over the years and have looked through a few side by side with ZCO and TT in actual terrain where IQ makes a difference. Even the G3 razor looks better than any of the PM2 5-25's I have owned or looked through.

The S&B were like someone turned the lights out in comparison, finding targets was much harder and the smaller FOV sucked.

They need better glass, They need better reticles, they need to drop prices. Those 3 things keep them in the has been categories and not competitive with the ZCO/TT today.

Better reticles? They have the widest selection of reticles of any of the top brands and their GRi2D reticle is actually usable unlike any of the HORUS offerings. And you dont have to deal with the hassle of selling optics to change reticles
Better glass? again, glass/IQ is very subjective and its not a day and night difference for some.

 

[clonebuilder]

I think what Frank is hinting at here, and this is a big big guess, is that even the best scopes have acceptable profit margins when sold at ~$3k. Everything after that is either gravy or is put towards servicing existing debt.

I don’t think he was slamming the TT’s image/build quality. He said they’re good scopes.

TT is making a very healthy profit on these scopes. veeeery healthy.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Better reticles? They have the widest selection of reticles of any of the top brands and their GRi2D reticle is actually usable unlike any of the HORUS offerings. And you dont have to deal with the hassle of selling optics to change reticles
Better glass? again, glass/IQ is very subjective and its not a day and night difference for some.

And they are all shitty. Having alot of bad outdated and obsolete options is not a good thing. Its why they have so many SKU but sell so few actual optics. Horus reticles are atrocious.

There was a time, when the Gen 2 XR was the new hotness, but that time has passed. Virtually everyone else has better reticle choices today:

ZCO
Tangent
Kahles
Minox
Leupold
Burris
Ziess
Vortex
Even nigthforce which use to hold the crown for worst reticles has a winner with the Mil-XT.

The market has spoken, people want uncluttered trees, not a H32 rehash.

Looking though a S&B next to a ZCO/TT is like puting sunglasses on the ZCO/TT and sqeezing the image. Razor has better glass, Minox has better glass and even the 7-35NF has better glass than a virtually every PM2 I have looked through. The 5-45 or 3-27 or whatever $7K optic may look better, but i am talking about the 5-25.

 

[clonebuilder]

And they are all shitty. Having alot of bad outdated and obsolete options is not a good thing. Its why they have so many SKU but sell so few actual optics. Horus reticles are atrocious.

There was a time, when the Gen 2 XR was the new hotness, but that time has passed. Virtually everyone else has better reticle choices today:

ZCO
Tangent
Kahles
Minox
Leupold
Burris
Ziess
Vortex
Even nigthforce which use to hold the crown for worst reticles has a winner with the Mil-XT.

The market has spoken, people want uncluttered trees, not a H32 rehash.

Looking though a S&B next to a ZCO/TT is like puting sunglasses on the ZCO/TT and sqeezing the image. Razor has better glass, Minox has better glass and even the 7-35NF has better glass than a virtually every PM2 I have looked through. The 5-45 or 3-27 or whatever $7K optic may look better, but i am talking about the 5-25.

The GRi2D has been very popular with people who have actually used them. And I prefer H2CMR and other non-trees. The MSR2 is one of the best reticles to be offered. LRR-Mil is also pretty decent. Gen2XR is still an on-request offer for people who want it.
again, not really sure what you expect here.
The razor and NF dont have better glass lol, the original post here did the comparison and the PMII was still top 3. And most of the other reviews done still have it top 3-5.
Again, glass quality is very subjective. But to say that the PMII is dogshit tells me you have some kind of dog in the fight here.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Dude we have ran them side by side in practice and at matches. Shits not secret.

The gen 3 razor hands down has better glass than any 5-25 I have looked throught. I have ran my zcos side by side with another members here 2 5-25 and it wasn't even close.

Same with the 7-35 and minox which probally is only second to TT in actually IQ.

Their time has passed, it's not 2008 anymore. Everything I have heard is the 6-36 has similar glass to the 5-25. This is khales 525 all over again if that's the case.

S&B reticles do not hold a candle to what the competition is offering and one of main reasons you hardly see them on match rifles anymore.

 

[carbonbased]

So I don’t think this has been brought up in this thread, but maybe I missed it. I’m sure @Glassaholic has already been all over this shit like a rabid raccoon (sorry buddy lol).

The 6-36 is both shorter and lighter than the 5-25?!

I know there’s no more tumor, but huh? Not implying it impacts image quality or anything, but a new design departure for sure.

And unless there’s a typo, specs indicate the 6-36 has more FOV at 6x (7.3m / 24ft) than the 5-25 has at 5x (5.3m / 17.4ft) at I assume 100m.

I know the 5-25 tunnels, but that’s a lot. Is that a typo?

And the 6-36 has an interesting spec titled, “Field of view [USA] (m). I can only guess that means meters at 100 yards. (Edit: or is it yds at 100m??? Wtf)

How about feet at 100 yards, S&B? Like most scopes in the USA are spec’d at?

The technical writer prob has an engineering calculator sitting right there on his desk. Do the conversion for us ya lazy German ass.

I’ll give you five grand for the extra work, pal.

 

[clonebuilder]

Dude we have ran them side by side in practice and at matches. Shits not secret.

The gen 3 razor hands down has better glass than any 5-25 I have looked throught. I have ran my zcos side by side with another members here 2 5-25 and it wasn't even close.

Same with the 7-35 and minox which probally is only second to TT in actually IQ.

Their time has passed, it's not 2008 anymore. Everything I have heard is the 6-36 has similar glass to the 5-25. This is khales 525 all over again if that's the case.

S&B reticles do not hold a candle to what the competition is offering and one of main reasons you hardly see them on match rifles anymore.

"everything i have heard"

from who? No one has one yet and it'll be July before anyone gets one per Jerry/Lisa.

 

[lte82]

The GRi2D has been very popular with people who have actually used them. And I prefer H2CMR and other non-trees. The MSR2 is one of the best reticles to be offered. LRR-Mil is also pretty decent. Gen2XR is still an on-request offer for people who want it.
again, not really sure what you expect here.
The razor and NF dont have better glass lol, the original post here did the comparison and the PMII was still top 3. And most of the other reviews done still have it top 3-5.
Again, glass quality is very subjective. But to say that the PMII is dogshit tells me you have some kind of dog in the fight here.

I agree. I’ve had them all side by side and Tangent & ZCO are the only scopes I’d put ahead of the schmidt 5-25. NF 7-35 is close. I’ve personally owned three minox and while at first glance they look amazing, the resolution isn’t there at distance in challenging conditions. Subjective, maybe, but you either can see your last shot on the plate or you can’t. The best scope at picking up tiny details through mirage, like small impact marks on a plate at 1k in soupy mirage conditions, is Tangent. Zco and Schmidt and even NF is close though. Minox is about as good as a razor 2 but with less CA and better color. It “looks” good but you can’t see the detail.

 

[clonebuilder]

So I don’t think this has been brought up in this thread, but maybe I missed it. I’m sure @Glassaholic has already been all over this shit like a rabid raccoon (sorry buddy lol).

The 6-36 is both shorter and lighter than the 5-25?!

I know there’s no more tumor, but huh? Not implying it impacts image quality or anything, but a new design departure for sure.

And unless there’s a typo, specs indicate the 6-36 has more FOV at 6x (7.3m / 24ft) than the 5-25 has at 5x (5.3m / 17.4ft) at I assume 100m.

I know the 5-25 tunnels, but that’s a lot. Is that a typo?

View attachment 8080074View attachment 8080075

And the 6-36 has an interesting spec titled, “Field of view [USA] (m). I can only guess that means meters at 100 yards.

How about feet at 100 yards, S&B? Like most scopes in the USA are spec’d at?

The technical writer prob has an engineering calculator sitting right there on his desk. Do the conversion for us ya lazy German ass.

I’ll give you five grand for the extra work.

It is a brand new design so I dont doubt it.

 

[clonebuilder]

I agree. I’ve had them all side by side and Tangent & ZCO are the only scopes I’d put ahead of the schmidt 5-25. NF 7-35 is close. I’ve personally owned three minox and while at first glance they look amazing, the resolution isn’t there at distance in challenging conditions. Subjective, maybe, but you either can see your last shot on the plate or you can’t. The best scope at picking up tiny details through mirage, like small impact marks on a plate at 1k in soupy mirage conditions, is Tangent. Zco and Schmidt and even NF is close though. Minox is about as good as a razor 2 but with less CA and better color. It “looks” good but you can’t see the detail.

Yeah. it's going to be a difficult decision picking between a TT735P and PMII 6-36 for an MRAD (if they ever come back in stock in meaningful quantities). The turrets and elevation will make a difference though. I wish the TT735P had 30-35 mils external instead of the same 28 as the 525

 

[Glassaholic]

So I don’t think this has been brought up in this thread, but maybe I missed it. I’m sure @Glassaholic has already been all over this shit like a rabid raccoon (sorry buddy lol).

Ummm, that would be like a Tanktop Tiger and yes, I have asked a lot of those questions. Regarding FOV the numbers I have is 21.9’ @ 100 yards which is pretty generous

 

[clonebuilder]

Ummm, that would be like a Tanktop Tiger and yes, I have asked a lot of those questions. Regarding FOV the numbers I have is 21.9’ @ 100 yards which is pretty generous

Damn. Now i'm really looking forward to this thing.

I'm hoping they add some more reticle options closer to launch.

 

[carbonbased]

Ummm, that would be like a Tanktop Tiger and yes, I have asked a lot of those questions. Regarding FOV the numbers I have is 21.9’ @ 100 yards which is pretty generous

I forgot about my Tanktop Tiger joke lol.

U R friggin’ ripping th’ specs to shreds bro!

Btw how does one convert meters@100m to yards@100yds? I’m a goddamn mental math midget.

 

[carbonbased]

P.S. don’t mess with Mr. Tanktop

 

[Huskydriver]

Sb has some things still going for it as stated above. I know this is the 636 thread and I could care less for a 6x36 honestly but the 520us is still unbeatable in it's overall package as is the 320us. The zco 420 comes close... the turrets are meh but the reticles are useable. Zcos new target 1 reticle looks aight but guess they are only putting in the 527 for now.

The SB 525 is still great below 3k with dtii+ turrets if you like one of the wide selection of reticles that are out there.

Does anyone even offer more reticles than SB?

I don't think I will ever part with my dtii+ 520us scopes. They are bad ass little scopes and I don't think I would own anything but ultra shorts if I can keep finding them around 3k with dtii turrets. The 320us is probably the best alpha scope behind a nvg or thermal right now.

 

[clonebuilder]

Sb has some things still going for it as stated above. I know this is the 636 thread and I could care less for a 6x36 honestly but the 520us is still unbeatable in it's overall package as is the 320us. The zco 420 comes close... the turrets are meh but the reticles are useable. Zcos new target 1 reticle looks aight but guess they are only putting in the 527 for now.

The SB 525 is still great below 3k with dtii+ turrets if you like one of the wide selection of reticles that are out there.

Does anyone even offer more reticles than SB?

I don't think I will ever part with my dtii+ 520us scopes. They are bad ass little scopes and I don't think I would own anything but ultra shorts if I can keep finding them around 3k with dtii turrets. The 320us is probably the best alpha scope behind a nvg or thermal right now.

This TBH. Not to mention with the other alpha brands you cant send it back to get a reticle swap (maybe ZCO can idk). Tangent flat out said no when I asked them about reticle swaps

 

[Huskydriver]

This TBH. Not to mention with the other alpha brands you cant send it back to get a reticle swap (maybe ZCO can idk). Tangent flat out said no when I asked them about reticle swaps

Or turret swaps.... Etc. If you got the money Schmidt will do it