If the FOV was wider it would have been classified as an assault scope and banned.
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Sir this is AmericaIf the FOV was wider it would have been classified as an assault scope and banned.
Not just Schmidt apparently. ZCO too.So, it may be a possible patent issue forcing S&B to artificially limit the field of view to avoid patent infringement... how disappointing if true.
I'm sure it's still a great scope even in the FOV-restricted US configuration, but as a US customer I would not be happy paying for a "limited" version of the scope when others can buy it with the full FOV. Looks like all their newest scopes are affected-- the 6-36, 10-60, and 3-18.
It does present a business opportunity though. Since Felipe isn't around to help anymore, I'm going to start a new company called Elite USFoV (Elite Unlocked Schmidt Field of View) that will specialize in removing the FOV limiting aperture rings from the US market S&B scopes that are affected by this patent. I'm actually already doing this for my DHS contacts, so feel free to ship me your S&B 6-36s.
On a more serious note, it would sure be a shame if S&Bs US service department somehow lost the field stop / aperture ring while they have your scope disassembled for that pesky "turret issue" you sent it in for...
Not just Schmidt apparently. ZCO too.
Anything above a 5X erector seems to be affected if its made in Europe. Which ZCO glass is.
This is my favorite conspiracy theory now and nothing can change my mind!I know why - it’s fucking payback for ITAR.
I was going to ask about the feasibility of jail breaking these things…
Unfortunately for me I already bought mine.
That's not really viable and not worth the effort.I was going to ask about the feasibility of jail breaking these things…
Wow. So thats the reason.
Un fucking believable.
Not even Schmidt's fault if thats the real reason.
Fuck Swarovski.
Unfortunately for me I already bought mine. Didn’t seem worth it to order from overseas at the price point for a Euro import after duties…
right right lol, just saw red after hearing the patent stuff. Thats infuriating if it turns out to be thatTo re-iterate one more time: that's my guess. I am trying to get direct confirmation. Until then, it is only a guess, albeit a fairly educated one.
ILya
if the FOV is the comparable to ZCO as stated in the livestream, its whatever.It should still be a great scope, so I'd use it and try not to dwell on the fact you got shorted a bit in the FOV department... but that might be easier said than done. Myself, I'd be thinking about it every time I used the damn thing.
On the other hand, the reduced FOV of the US 6-36 @ 6x is still greater than the FOV of my S&B 5-25s from 5-7.5x where they tunnel, so maybe I wouldn't complain at all, because I don't really complain about the limited FOV at low magnification on my 5-25s because I rarely use them below 9-10x.
Does your 6-36 have a thick black "ring" around the edge of the image, or is it a nice full edge to edge image?
If all that's different is the FOV in relation to the versions we get..then I still say it's a superb optic.Unfortunately for me I already bought mine. Didn’t seem worth it to order from overseas at the price point for a Euro import after duties…
Try living outside the USA, pretty much every manufacturer limits the exporting of product outside of their designated region. The main thing that drives my scope buying is whether or not I can parallel import certain models as I refused to pay local pricing.S&B isn't the only manufacturer to have those kinds of dealer requirements and regional shipping restrictions in place; a while ago when a certain air rifle I wanted was very, very hard to get here in the US I found plenty in stock at several European dealers at a lower price than the US dealers, but they could not ship them to the US or Canada because of their dealer agreements with the manufacturer.
Saaaaay…. We could invade Austria…."Diese gottverdammten Österreicher! Jedes Mal!"
@koshkin Jerry Ricker confirmed its the Swaro patent.I am reposting the link to the patent that the Dark Lord of Optics thinks is holding back S&B:
EP1746451A2 - Telescope with wide field of view and large magnification - Google Patents
A telescope or target telescope has a reverse system and an adjustable magnification optical system with more than four times magnification. The distance optical device has an optical beam deflection device (2) which provides, at all magnifications, a subjective field of view of the distance...patents.google.com
I'm going to give it a read and post my opinion (I do patent eval for pharma/biotech products). Curious if anyone else has an opinion on this patent and potential infringement.
Right off the bat, I see this was registered in 2006. Patents typically expire at 20 years, meaning this patent is only enforceable for another ~3yrs. Sucks for the current market, but things open up soon for the field.
The thing about the patent office is that the process isn't adversarial, the examiner isn't looking to tell you no. They are just going through the motions and making sure you look to be satisfying the basic requirements to get a patent. The system is set up so that the real test of how valid your patent is happens once you sue somebody for infringement and they spend millions of dollars for a real in depth examination by subject matter experts. Thus, this is how big companies use the patent system to crush little companies.Why fuck Swarovski? Because they a weak patent that nobody is fighting? If anyone fucked up it is the guy at the patent office who approved it.
I wonder if Schmidt will "unlock" US scopes after 3 years.The thing about the patent office is that the process isn't adversarial, the examiner isn't looking to tell you no. They are just going through the motions and making sure you look to be satisfying the basic requirements to get a patent. The system is set up so that the real test of how valid your patent is happens once you sue somebody for infringement and they spend millions of dollars for a real in depth examination by subject matter experts. Thus, this is how big companies use the patent system to crush little companies.
Due to there only being a few years left in the patent were stuck with it till it expires because waiting is a whole lot cheaper than fighting it.
I think i'll still get one.
hell yeah. Have fun!@TheOE800 and I are going to field test the FOV this afternoon on his US version. We are going to test it against his Vortex 6-36 and against the specs S&B is reporting. We will test it at 6x, 25x and 36x.
We will report back with results. I will also pass along my opinion of the GR2ID reticle, which I'm interested in seeing.
I am reposting the link to the patent that the Dark Lord of Optics thinks is holding back S&B:
EP1746451A2 - Telescope with wide field of view and large magnification - Google Patents
A telescope or target telescope has a reverse system and an adjustable magnification optical system with more than four times magnification. The distance optical device has an optical beam deflection device (2) which provides, at all magnifications, a subjective field of view of the distance...patents.google.com
I'm going to give it a read and post my opinion (I do patent eval for pharma/biotech products). Curious if anyone else has an opinion on this patent and potential infringement.
Right off the bat, I see this was registered in 2006. Patents typically expire at 20 years, meaning this patent is only enforceable for another ~3yrs. Sucks for the current market, but things open up soon for the field.
@TheOE800 and I are going to field test the FOV this afternoon on his US version. We are going to test it against his Vortex 6-36 and against the specs S&B is reporting. We will test it at 6x, 25x and 36x.
We will report back with results. I will also pass along my opinion of the GR2ID reticle, which I'm interested in seeing.
I have read my fair share of patents and companies always start with the broadest possible patent that then gets cut down by the patent office revision after revision. Also having blocking patents is nothing really new in any industry.The thing about the patent office is that the process isn't adversarial, the examiner isn't looking to tell you no. They are just going through the motions and making sure you look to be satisfying the basic requirements to get a patent. The system is set up so that the real test of how valid your patent is happens once you sue somebody for infringement and they spend millions of dollars for a real in depth examination by subject matter experts. Thus, this is how big companies use the patent system to crush little companies.
Due to there only being a few years left in the patent were stuck with it till it expires because waiting is a whole lot cheaper than fighting it.
The patent was challenged by Leica and invalidated in EU. It is an expensive process though, so I can see how many smaller companies would not want to deal with it.OK, I have read over that patent.
IF I was the lawyer for S&B, I would advise that this is an enforceable patent and not to challenge it. Instead, approach Swarvo about paying a royalty for a license to use it. Or attempt to 'wait it out' (3 yrs at this point).
Why?
Patents are about the state of the art AT THE TIME the patent was issued. In this case, 2006. I was a precision shooter back in '06 and there were no scopes available on the market (at any price point) with these performance capabilities. This is not a definitive statement that the patent is novel and therefore valid, but its a good indicator.
Additionally, the patent lays out an optical system that advances the state of the art. It covers the old state of the art, see figures 1 and 2a-c. Then it illustrates a seemingly novel system in Figures 3a-c, with a new "optical beam deflection device #2" (as shown in Figures 3a-c). This new device apparently produces AFOVs of >22* with at least a 5 fold optical magnification system. Device #7, Figures 3a-c, is added to reduce CA.
So the issue becomes, is S&B building this new 6-36x56x scope with an optical system using the art covered in Figure 3, specifically that Device #2 and #7? I don't know nearly enough to answer that question. Legally, it might take a lot of time and $'s to disprove (remember, burden is on challenger, S&B). Also, damages are often awarded at 3x the nominal amounts (made $100 off this patent, you pay $300), meaning risks are high.
Now, the question is why hasn't Swavo taken advantage of their own invention? Why haven't they built such high performing scopes? If they can't, why haven't they monetized this patent by allowed others to license it, at a reasonable and fair price? I don't know why, but I imagine this patent has held back scope capabilities for a LONG TIME, not just this new S&B, but other S&B scopes in past, Premier's efforts, Leupy and NF, as well as all the Euro guys (probably most especially the Euro guys as this is a European patent and Swavo is European).
Don't like this? Well, welcome to modern capitalism.
That is an interesting observation about the tube diameter, but oddly enough it has been reported that ZCO is also using a field stop and has limited their FOV, some have even questioned the FOV of the USA scope (vs. the spec).Noticed a sentence in the patent that's interesting...
View attachment 8192026
I wonder if that's why we're seeing 36mm scopes. At the time the patent was written Swarovski was obviously trying to lock up the market for 30mm and 34mm tubes which covered pretty much every high magnification / high elevation travel scope on the market in 2006, but 36mm is obviously greater than the maximum 35mm outer diameter specified in the patent. So maybe ZCO didn't go 36mm for reasons of more elevation travel (although that's certainly a side effect of doing so) but rather to avoid patent infringement issues.
As mentioned above, be nice if S&B would unlock these things in 3 years when the patent expires.
Looking forward to the results, especially comparing it to the razor.
Very interesting, 2006 was the year the S&B PM II 5-25x56 was introduced...I am reposting the link to the patent that the Dark Lord of Optics thinks is holding back S&B:
EP1746451A2 - Telescope with wide field of view and large magnification - Google Patents
A telescope or target telescope has a reverse system and an adjustable magnification optical system with more than four times magnification. The distance optical device has an optical beam deflection device (2) which provides, at all magnifications, a subjective field of view of the distance...patents.google.com
I'm going to give it a read and post my opinion (I do patent eval for pharma/biotech products). Curious if anyone else has an opinion on this patent and potential infringement.
Right off the bat, I see this was registered in 2006. Patents typically expire at 20 years, meaning this patent is only enforceable for another ~3yrs. Sucks for the current market, but things open up soon for the field.
The patent was challenged by Leica and invalidated in EU. It is an expensive process though, so I can see how many smaller companies would not want to deal with it.
The stuff about the lenses in the erector system is not really new. Most erector systems are build that way and best I can tell none of that is new or patentable. My best guess is that they added that verbiage to the patent application to make it look like there is something there and get it past the examiner. That's probably what Leica set out to prove false in the EU case, but I do not have the exact verbiage of how that went, even if it was in English (I do not speak German).
Leica did note that the patent was revoked in Europe: https://leica-camera.com/en-int/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2014/Press-Release-European-Patent-Office-revokes-Swarovski-Optik-KG’s-riflescope-patent, which is why S&B can sell the wider FOV version in Europe.
You are absolutely correct that it is a mess to prove in litigation.
Swaro's second focal plane scopes, Z6 and Z8 family have high erector ratios and wide AFOV without tunneling, so they are indeed building riflescopes within the performance envelope of the patent.
They have a US version of the patent as well, which is what is making problems for S&B at the moment and, presumably, other companies who are small enough to be intimidated by Swaro. You can see different version under worldwide applications.
US8054544B2 - Far-optical device - Google Patents
A far-optical device comprising a reversal system and an adjustable optical magnification means with more than fourfold magnification, wherein the far-optical device has an optical beam deflection means which at all magnifications ensures a subjective field of view of the far-optical device of...patents.google.com
To the best of my knowledge, there has not been litigation over this patent in the US.
ILya
That is an interesting observation about the tube diameter, but oddly enough it has been reported that ZCO is also using a field stop and has limited their FOV, some have even questioned the FOV of the USA scope (vs. the spec).
For me, the biggest draw with the Schmidt 6-36x56 was having the huge FOV of the initial specs, so I understand if I was an early adopter I'd be pretty furious after getting the scope and seeing that FOV was tighter than my TT 5-25x56 for instance. Given the current situation of the limited FOV Schmidt 6-36 here in the USA I will not be ordering one as it offers me nothing more than the similarly priced Tangent 5-25x56 and ZCO 5-27x56. For me personally, FOV plays a big role in the scopes I choose as being able to see more at any given magnification is a definite advantage as long as edge to edge sharpness is within reason.It should still be a great scope, so I'd use it and try not to dwell on the fact you got shorted a bit in the FOV department... but that might be easier said than done. Myself, I'd be thinking about it every time I used the damn thing.
Is it though? After the tunneling the Schmidt 5-25 actually does really well increasing FOV. If I'm not mistaken the TT 5-25x56 has greater FOV than the USA neutered Schmidt 6-36 for any given magnification.On the other hand, the reduced FOV of the US 6-36 @ 6x is still greater than the FOV of my S&B 5-25s from 5-7.5x where they tunnel, so maybe I wouldn't complain at all, because I don't really complain about the limited FOV at low magnification on my 5-25s because I rarely use them below 9-10x.
Good question...Does your 6-36 have a thick black "ring" around the edge of the image, or is it a nice full edge to edge image?
If I'm not mistaken the TT 5-25x56 has greater FOV than the USA neutered Schmidt 6-36 for any given magnification.
I asked Leica if they pulled Magnus from the US market due to Swaro patent and they said "no" and that they resolved that issue.In the Leica press release it says the patent dispute took 3.5 years to settle/invalidate.
With only 3 years remaining on the patent and assuming the US courts work at the same speed as the EU courts, the smart money is on installing field stops for now and waiting 3 years for the patent to expire rather than begin litigation.
Interesting if ZCO is limiting their FOV. Maybe their legal council advised they were still asking for trouble given the erector ratio and FOV even though they used a 36mm tube, and the field stop to limit FOV was a guaranteed way to avoid the possibility of expensive legal action.
It's too bad Leica didn't go after the Swarovski patent in other markets given they have case precedent on their side, but in the video I believe Ilya said Leica tried to get it invalidated in the UK but the UK upheld the Swarovski patent.
This sums up my feeling about this
View attachment 8192152
That's how I felt - Swarovski didn't do anything "wrong", but clever patent writing that holds up the market is frustrating.To re-iterate one more time, Swarovski is not doing anything illegal in this patent. They are well within their right to try to patent anything they want and defend whatever patents they have in any way they see fit. Swarovski makes excellent products.
If Swaro filed this in 2006, strange that it has really reared it's head before now, at least not that I can recall. Maybe because no one has limited their FOV for the US market before, or at least advertised that they did.However, I do not have to like their business practices. I am not a fan of the business practice of using questionable patents to intimidate competition.
It is unfortunate because it is not Schmidt's fault. But the US version of the Schmidt 6-36x56 has little value to me with restricted FOV. Yes, it is a very nice scope... a very nice scope that has FOV limitations which hinders the experience behind the scope - that is what I was most anticipating with this scope.I wouldn't quite go that far. It is a very very nice scope.
Does the patent only affect rifles scopes or is it applicable to binoculars as well? I've noticed Swaro has some of the widest FOV offerings with Bino's and curious if this patent might be why.OK, I have read over that patent.
IF I was the lawyer for S&B, I would advise that this is an enforceable patent and not to challenge it. Instead, approach Swarvo about paying a royalty for a license to use it. Or attempt to 'wait it out' (3 yrs at this point).
Why?
Patents are about the state of the art AT THE TIME the patent was issued. In this case, 2006. I was a precision shooter back in '06 and there were no scopes available on the market (at any price point) with these performance capabilities. This is not a definitive statement that the patent is novel and therefore valid, but its a good indicator.
Additionally, the patent lays out an optical system that advances the state of the art. It covers the old state of the art, see figures 1 and 2a-c. Then it illustrates a seemingly novel system in Figures 3a-c, with a new "optical beam deflection device #2" (as shown in Figures 3a-c). This new device apparently produces AFOVs of >22* with at least a 5 fold optical magnification system. Device #7, Figures 3a-c, is added to reduce CA.
So the issue becomes, is S&B building this new 6-36x56x scope with an optical system using the art covered in Figure 3, specifically that Device #2 and #7? I don't know nearly enough to answer that question. Legally, it might take a lot of time and $'s to disprove (remember, burden is on challenger, S&B). Also, damages are often awarded at 3x the nominal amounts (made $100 off this patent, you pay $300), meaning risks are high.
Now, the question is why hasn't Swavo taken advantage of their own invention? Why haven't they built such high performing scopes? If they can't, why haven't they monetized this patent by allowed others to license it, at a reasonable and fair price? I don't know why, but I imagine this patent has held back scope capabilities for a LONG TIME, not just this new S&B, but other S&B scopes in past, Premier's efforts, Leupy and NF, as well as all the Euro guys (probably most especially the Euro guys as this is a European patent and Swavo is European).
Don't like this? Well, welcome to modern capitalism.
Maybe because no one has limited their FOV for the US market before, or at least advertised that they did.
Of course, I rarely use a 36 mag… and the scope is highly usable at 25xThis sums up my feeling about this
View attachment 8192152
This patent is specific to riflescopes.Does the patent only affect rifles scopes or is it applicable to binoculars as well? I've noticed Swaro has some of the widest FOV offerings with Bino's and curious if this patent might be why.
I bet other manufacturers have limited their FOV to avoid legal issues involving this patent and none of us were the wiser because they never advertised/disclosed it.
S&B on the other hand chose to be 100% honest about the reduced FOV in the US market for these 3 new scopes (full disclosure about this was the right thing to do IMO) and they've opened a can of worms by doing so.
I'm not disappointed in S&B at all as they are only following the law and letting customers know about it, but it does make me reconsider buying one as I know I'm not getting the most scope for my money. Previously I was pretty anxious to buy a 6-36 to try, and the large FOV was one of the main specs that interested me... but at this point I'm leaning towards waiting 3 years until the patent expires to be able to buy one with a full FOV.
If S&B were to issue a statement that they would restore these scopes to the full FOV once the patent expires for only the cost of shipping or for a minimal fee, I'd probably buy 2 of them in the next 6 months.
I do not envy the position S&B USA is in right now; they have 3 new scope models they want to sell but had to throttle them for the US market, and chose to be honest and disclosed the reduced FOV for the US models... unfortunately for them that performance reduction won't sit well with many current or potential customers.