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Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56
- Thread starter Just Macca
- Start date
Focal length is interesting use of words hear, that is typically not widely publiscised. Although this would make sense logically, since its a description of the actual optical array, not the typical "marketing" features, such as mag range, etc.
So the way I read this, is that certain reticiles can swap within like families of optical array.
maybe @koshkin can parse it ?
For those late to the party. Woof has the non-USA version which has a much wider FOV than the US version; however, the USA version isn't bad, sharing about the same FOV as the TT 7-35.
EDIT: I initially wrote TT 5-25 but it is the TT 7-35 that shares the same FOV as the USA Schmidt 6-36 version. The TT 5-25 offers 22.92 degree AFOV vs 21.66 AFOV for USA version of Schmidt 6-36 and TT 7-35.
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I trust your eyes as much as mine. Nothing trumps individual experience in the field. There are plenty of scopes I like that others don’t and vice versa. I have appreciated your past observations Islas and learned from them.
am blushing...I trust your eyes as much as mine. Nothing trumps individual experience in the field. There are plenty of scopes I like that others don’t and vice versa. I have appreciated your past observations Islas and learned from them.
Depending on your set up. I was running a badger ordnance C1 max 1.54” on a chassis with a hand guard and now running a 1.26” area 419 on a manners. Both ran great as far as fitment.
I ran into an issue with their diving board and the S&B. The board is really high and it interferes with the DTII+ turret lever and also causes issues with you trying to grab the entire turret to dial fast. Reached out to 419 and they said they’ll be releasing a “Short” version of the diving board that should eliminate these issues. They’re supposed to be an available next week or so. Other than that yes the mount is solid and well designed and machined.
I don't understand how this patent works in practice. Surely there are a bunch od scopes with a wide FOV that break the patent.
Does Swaro contact each company when a new scopes comes out and informs them of a breach of patent?
If the patent has been upheld in the US and the UK but not the the EU, does that mean they went to every country and applied for the patent?
What about Japan where a bunch of scopes have a wider FOV?
This is such a weird situation.
I'm guessing it's fear of the US legal system more than anything.
You should consider the Badger C1 MAX...it is really a well-made mount.
I meant the 7-35, my bad. The TT 5-25 has wider FOV than the Schmidt 6-36 US version with 22.92 vs 21.66 degrees AFOV.
I was thinking 34mm ring size but not sure about 36mm
I should have looked at Badgers website instead of a supplier, you are correct (as usual).
I think I will check out this combo
That's correct. The physical size of the reticle features depends on the focal length of the objective system. The actual focal lengths used in the objectives of different riflescopes are not publicized, so I do not disclose them either. If you want to get an approximate number, measure the distance from the front of the objective to the front of the turret box. It is not exact, but it will get you in the ballpark.
For example, if you want to draw a line that is 0.05mrad thick in the image you see, the physical size of that line as etched on the reticle glass element is going to be 5 microns thick for a scope that uses a 100mm objective lens focal length. For a scope with a 150mm objective lens focal length, it would be 7.5microns thick.
That's one of the reasons early March scopes, like the 3-24x42 that used a very short (for back then) design, had comparatively thick reticles. It was very difficult to find a vendor who could etch reticle lines that thin.
ILya
so I ordered one to replace my Zeiss LRP S5, which I think was a brilliant move even though I lost my ass on the Zeiss (nearly 50% loss).
Then I was on the Eurooptic page and noticed that most of the other PMII line are upwards of 50% or more the price of the 6-36. What gives? How can this be? why is the 3-27 literally 90% more than the 6-36, and how will S&B sell any of the former at $6700 when the latter is $3500?
What am I missing?
Then I was on the Eurooptic page and noticed that most of the other PMII line are upwards of 50% or more the price of the 6-36. What gives? How can this be? why is the 3-27 literally 90% more than the 6-36, and how will S&B sell any of the former at $6700 when the latter is $3500?
What am I missing?
Yes. I am. This will be my first. If it's as great as everybody says, it will not be my last. The TT is in the safe weeping tears of envy and experiencing serious sibling rivalry and separation anxiety right now.
S&B pricing model: This company doesn't necessarily want to sell you anything.
{how did I do?}
{how did I do?}
The 5-45, 3-27, 5-20 and some others were built for military contracts.
Same with the Leupold mk4, 5, 6, and 8.
That's why they seem to not make any sense, it's because they were built for what the gov wanted.
We get the left overs.
I just wanna know if they're going to raise the price, so I can get another one and stay ahead of the game
I'm sure they'll raise the price 10-20% right about the time they offer the 6-36 with a reticle I actually want.
A cleaned up GRID would be awesome.I'm sure they'll raise the price 10-20% right about the time they offer the 6-36 with a reticle I actually want.
Less graph paper, more simple tree is what I'm wanting.
I'm hoping their Christmas post below was actually a hint of a future reticle offering and not just a funny post-- because I would buy that.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I could live with a 2mrad grid though.
We should tell SuB we want this reticle.
The first batch that made it into North America was quite a bit more expensive. The first one I got I paid $4300 for. Then they dropped to their current price and I scooped up two more.
The other scope lines are getting a refresh with the new LPI illum/parallax knob, so you’ll find those quite pricey, and the older stock going out at a discount.
Remember when the S&B 5-25x with Premier Reticles Xmas tree reticle was the bees knees?
Too bad Ze Germans will never listen to suggestions from us unworthy customers-- we uncultured civilian purchasers should simply be grateful we have not 1, but 2 reticles to choose from. You will buy what they make and like it.
I damn near bought that mint used P5FL 6-36 last week in the PX. Price was good and no sales tax. The P5FL isn't my favorite but I like it better than the gr2id. I decided to think it over for a day and lucky for my wallet someone else bought it during my period of reflection.
Besides, with election chaos 9 months away and component prices steadily increasing I think it would be smarter to stock up on the 3 P's (powder, primers, and projectiles) during the next couple of months and hold off on more optic purchases and rifle builds for a while. Components might get scarce as people stock up closer to the election, but scopes should remain in ample supply. Currently trying to decide if I want to stick with the RL16 I've been using for several years (even though Alliant prices are now insane) or switch back to H4350 and save a few bucks but then have to rework loads for 6 guns that are currently using RL16. H4350 will give up a bit of velocity and be slightly less temp stable that my current RL16 loads, but on the positive side I'll have to clean barrels less often as H4350 is cleaner than RL16.
Actually, no, not familar with that reticle... which one is it? You thinking of the Gen II XR or something else? I have several Gen II XRs in Premiers and Tangents...
I bought my first S&B 5-25 back around 2011 used off the PX here, and liked it so much I bought several more in the next year or so. Huge step up from the Bushnells, Leupolds, and IORs I had previously. My 6x 5-25s and 3x 3-20s are all H2CMR. Simple and uncluttered; I still like the H2CMR, but I do find a simple uncluttered tree faster and more accurate for shooting holdovers especially if holding a lot of wind along with elevation.
^How do you guys afford all these scopes? That's why I went full on DT, so I can have fewer rigs/scopes
I do NOT understand why you need/want an Xmas tree reticle in a dedicated ELR scope where most of the time you're dialing. But TBH, I'm a one trick pony (and a dilettante) so that's why a simple reticle suits me so well
I do NOT understand why you need/want an Xmas tree reticle in a dedicated ELR scope where most of the time you're dialing. But TBH, I'm a one trick pony (and a dilettante) so that's why a simple reticle suits me so well
No kids, disabled veteran, work in tech (3D graphics and code), and my wife makes more than me.
I dial everything and use to think I needed the tree to help with corrections easily and fast. Then I realized that all you need is good recoil management to stay on target and a simple crosshair reticle can give you the same information if you’re paying attention and spotting your misses.
Fuck! How do I learn this one simple trick?
Still use the Gen II XR frequently as I have several Premier 3-15s and 5-25s and Tangent 5-25s with it. Nice simple reticle, a bit fine under some situations at lower mag, and I wished it had 0.2 mil hash marks, but it gets the job done. Just barely enough "tree" so you can be a little more precise with holdovers as the target isn't floating out into a totally empty area of the reticle, but not so much tree it seems cluttered (looking at you, gr2id, and let's not even mention anything with Tremor in the name.)
As far as affording a bunch of scopes... I thought everyone on this forum does it the same way: poor financial decisions, LOL.
It would certainly be cheaper to have one switch barrel rifle and one really nice optic and multiple barrels... but I tried that several years ago and hated constantly changing barrels and rezeroing the scope, because it seemed like every time I wanted to go shooting the barrel I used the last time and was still on the rifle wasn't the one I needed this time. I tried the one gun / one scope / multiple barrel thing with an AIAT for 308/6.5CM/6 Dasher and a Sako Quad for .22LR and .17HMR, and constantly switching barrels and rezeroing irritated me so much I ended up with 2x AXs and 2x Quads (setup the exact same with the exception of caliber, and the barrel stays on until it's shot out) so they're always ready to go. It's certainly more convenient, but a hell of a lot more expensive.
Part of the reason I'm holding off trying an S&B 6-36 because if they're as good as everyone says they are it's going to get very, very expensive for me as I know I'm going to end up buying several of them after I use the first one and then sell some of my current scopes at a loss. That's how it was with my first S&B 5-25 back around 2011; I was happy with the Bushnells, Leupolds, and IORs I was using at the time, but decided "I'll just buy one used S&B 5-25 and put it on my most frequently used rifle to see if I like it, and if not I can sell it for what I bought it for." By the end of 2012 I had sold all my other scopes, sold all of my "back of the safe" rifles that never got shot, and kept only my 6 favorite frequently used rifles and put S&B 5-25s on each of them. It was a huge jump up in scope quality and made all those rifles much more pleasant to use.
Regarding tree reticles...
I shoot a lot of holdovers as I do a LOT of ground squirrel and varmint blasting. They pop up and down at all different ranges from 20Y to 600Y+ and often don't stay up long enough to dial as you scan around the field. For the ones 400Y-ish and in I'll just use holdovers, but for longer range ones I'll dial and wait for them to pop up and take the shot.
In the last couple months I swapped scopes on my 3 primary squirrel blasters from S&B 5-25s with H2CMR reticles to Razor G3s mostly to try something new, going to see how I like them this season. The H2CMR being a simple uncluttered reticle made it easy to see the little furry buggers popping up anywhere in the wide open scope FOV, but precise holdovers on little squirrels were always a little iffy on the H2CMR especially as you get further out and the wind picks up putting the target further away from the center of the reticle and hash marks. Much easier to do more accurate holdovers IMO on the Razor G3 tree reticle since you always have a nearby reference mark, but I'm also hoping the tree reticle in the Razor G3 won't obscure any squirrels as I'm scanning the fields. It's not a very cluttered reticle so I'm not expecting any issues.
If I was shooting exclusively known distance or ELR stuff I'd probably prefer an open, non-tree reticle to better spot misses and faint splash since I'd be dialing everything, just like you mentioned.
I could use the P5FL, but I'd prefer it to have 0.2 mil wind marks. I'm very used to those after using the H2CMR since 2011.
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First here’s the current Grid reticle:
Below is a mockup of what I'd like to see with the Grid, Gr2id, whatever. Basically I copied how the EBR-2c/7d subtensions work. I mean, just copy what sells?
I could also maybe go for how the Mil-XT subtensions are displayed (below).
But I recall some announcement from S&B that they were indeed going to release what they showed in their IG post. But I can't find it now…I thought it was going to be called the TR2id or something.
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and here's my favorite version, the Varmint Special. It could have a couple more branches on the tree, but I just like a more clear view down there. Got rid of some of the “grid-ness” at 1 & 2 mils as well.
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Kiba, you and I are a lot alike in the varmint area. For years I have been using the Vortex 4.5-27 with the EBR-2c and the PST II with the EBR-2d & 2c (2d was a special run and might be my fav of all time). I just couldn't get behind the 7-series EBR reticles, but maybe the latest 7d is ok.
I shoot prairie dogs and sometimes even the thin EBR-2c interferes with my view. Regardless, I am trying the Mil-XT in an NX8 4-32 this year because I'm curious about NF and about that reticle. My 4-32 copy seems optically extremely good (sharpness, mirage, CA); in fact it may be better than all my other scopes. But I haven't gotten it out shooting varmints yet, just paper, so I don't know how the DOF will pan out.
I'm also trying what you used to use, namely an S&B 5-25 in H2CMR on a 6br in order to try dialing.
I have come full circle........ many years ago using basic target reticle,s.......over time transitioned to various tree based reticle,s....... now......enjoying the un obscured view of a simple BUT functional reticle again.
Of all the Tree reticle,s i have used , these 3 i didnt mind at all.......
March FML3
March FMA3 ( not a tree reticle...but one of my favourites)
TT GEN 2XR Fine..
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