Germans are arrogant at their core and can't admit their mistakes. HK and Schmidt are prime examples of this.
Rifle Scopes New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56
- Thread starter Just Macca
- Start date
What a broad brush you paint with.
Wtf? I think I'll hold out for the kahles 5-40. I wonder how long the price on scopelist will hold.Maybe I missed something, but why did the 6-36 prices just jump up into the stratosphere?
This scope was $3,300 around Black Friday, then shortly after it went back up to around its normal $3,550… now a $2,000 jump in price out of nowhere? Wtf
Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5
FREE SHIPPING on Schmidt Bender 6-36x56mm PM II US LPI P5FL 1cm ccw DT II+ MTC LT / ST II ZC LT Riflescope 163-911-64F-M2-I5www.eurooptic.com
How many examples do you need?
Porsche 911 is another.
I’m loving the TR2ID reticle. As far as the rest, I’m not convinced it isn’t Tangent-grade, but if it isn’t, it is as close as you can get.
365ish. Of course the actual image is much sharper that what shows up through my sucky phone pic. It’s also facing into the setting sun.
I just can’t find this scope worth 2-2.5x Razor G3. The optics ARE better, confirmed with Mr. @jbailey when we did the FoV testing, but at the new old price it’s just not a scope to bother with.
Yep it’s still available at that price, too. Still hard pill to swallow given the FoV, but that’s priced more right than wrong. Razor G3 is essentially the same reticle as TRID, cost thousand to two and a half thousand less, and has a good amount more FoV with pretty much tool-less turrets.I paid $3500ish so
The FOV is a bit smaller than my ZP5’s but I don’t think it will cause any issues for me. The eyebox seems ok, edge-to-edge clarity is good, but more importantly the overall package feels solid. I did notice a small amount of CA but it’s not yet mounted so hopefully it won’t be a distraction. I do wish that the turrets weren’t 16 mils per rev, the spacing is pretty tight. But the ability to lock them out is handy. Nothing is perfect though.
It’s going on my new build when the final part arrives (Impact 737 75* action).
It’s going on my new build when the final part arrives (Impact 737 75* action).
I don’t, but I wish I could afford to. I use a T6Xi on my HNT26 20” 6.5x47 and a SFP Luepy on my Ruger Gunsite Scout 308.
Edited to add: I know Leupold and Steiner get a lot of hate here, but honestly I think the two I use have close to the best low light performance of any scope I have ever used. The T6Xi is phenomenal on low powers with that big objective lens.
Edited to add: I know Leupold and Steiner get a lot of hate here, but honestly I think the two I use have close to the best low light performance of any scope I have ever used. The T6Xi is phenomenal on low powers with that big objective lens.
Last edited:
I do not understand the hate for the Steiner T6xi
Maybe for the T5xi and leftover impressions? I have never looked through a T5xi, so I wouldn't know, but hate for the T6xi makes no sense
Maybe we have good ones? Could be that there’s a bit of variation in their quality. But I think mine is solid.
I am not a scope expert, and I have never owned a ZCO or TT or S&B, but my Steiner T6xi is the best scope by far that I have ever owned.
I spent some time looking through a ZCO this last weekend. It was nice, but I did not have enough time to spend comparing both scopes to really see how much of a difference it would make for me.
I think once you get into the mid-tier class of scopes these days you have everything you need. Consistent tracking being a given that should be verified with any of them, what I feel I gain with my S&B’s and ZP5’s over the T6Xi, S3, and NX8 is just a bit more refinement in everything. More tactile and possibly a better engineered turret system, smoother controls, a more pleasing overall image with higher resolution to better see environmental details. I think it’s just the culmination of everything being slightly better and having to deal with less compromises that make the more expensive options worth it.
I am fairly critical of optics, but the key for me to be happy with any scope is to find one that matches my needs and expectations for whatever it will be used for.
I am fairly critical of optics, but the key for me to be happy with any scope is to find one that matches my needs and expectations for whatever it will be used for.
I dunno man, Vortex has recently increased their 6-36 prices too. Now $3000. Even on the black ones (which were cheaper when they were introduced). I think the brownish scope was what? $2600 when it was brought to market?
Vortex Razor HD Gen III Riflescopes
Vortex Razor HD Gen II Rifle Scopes on sale at Eurooptic.com. No tax, free shipping. Call (570) 368-3920 to place your order
So, if the 15% VTX15 deal goes away and EO doesn’t give you a deal on a G3 (gotta call, gents), there’s only a $500 difference between a G3 and some S&B 6-36 models.
That’s crazy. Long live VTX15!
(Don’t think VTX15 applies to the black models
)
Been $3K for a while and still commonly available at ~$2500. Unless you’re rich this whole game is about shopping around to some degree I’d say.I dunno man, Vortex has recently increased their 6-36 prices too. Now $3000. Even on the black ones (which were cheaper when they were introduced). I think the brownish scope was what? $2600 when it was brought to market?
Vortex Razor HD Gen III Riflescopes
Vortex Razor HD Gen II Rifle Scopes on sale at Eurooptic.com. No tax, free shipping. Call (570) 368-3920 to place your order
So, if the 15% VTX15 deal goes away and EO doesn’t give you a deal on a G3 (gotta call, gents), there’s only a $500 difference between a G3 and some S&B 6-36 models.
That’s crazy. Long live VTX15!
(Don’t think VTX15 applies to the black models
Yeah G3 Razor has been 3K for as long as I can remember and it's not that difficult to find 30% off Vortex in the PX. That brings it down to $2100 before tax, plus whatever you pay for the discount, maybe $60 to $100, which is not bad at all for what it is.
I have one on my .22, and was very impressed by it in the Florida everglades, and it cut mirage at a mile, better than my SB 5-25 with the DTII+ turrets, and was pretty damn close to TT in the same conditions.
Scott
I have one on my .22, and was very impressed by it in the Florida everglades, and it cut mirage at a mile, better than my SB 5-25 with the DTII+ turrets, and was pretty damn close to TT in the same conditions.
Scott
Initial impressions compared to the 5-45, also the 6-36?
You know, maybe my memory is just keyed on the black mrad G3, which was ~$2650 last time I looked a month or so ago. That particular one is now $3k and the 15% discount doesn't apply to that one (never did, IIRC).
I literally linked to my review in the post above. I usually don’t do benchmarks, but touched on the subject so there are some various thoughts and some reticle comparisons.
The FOV of the 540i is very good, especially compared to the ZCO840.
I only brought my S&B 5-45. Stupid of me not to bring the 6-36, but I didn’t think about it. I like the 6-36 PM II quite a lot.
I think you might have accidentally deleted the link. I thought it was there, because I read the article . . . but it is not now.
TFB Review: Kahles K540i Riflescope - The 40x Game Changer?
This is a review of the brand new Kahles K540i DLR premium riflescope.The K540i is designed for precision shooting at extreme ranges, boasting an impressive 5-40x magnification range.TFB is the only international publication chosen to review this riflescope before its official release.Kahles...
www.thefirearmblog.com
You posted it in the thread about the Kahles, not this thread.
Looks like many pictures of the scope housing (±45!), but hardly any capture the image quality and field of view (±3?)...I think you might have accidentally deleted the link. I thought it was there, because I read the article . . . but it is not now.
TFB Review: Kahles K540i Riflescope - The 40x Game Changer?
This is a review of the brand new Kahles K540i DLR premium riflescope.The K540i is designed for precision shooting at extreme ranges, boasting an impressive 5-40x magnification range.TFB is the only international publication chosen to review this riflescope before its official release.Kahles...
You posted it in the thread about the Kahles, not this thread.
Last edited:
I need to replace a S&B 5-25 PM II that I just sold. I am not sure if it's worth spending the extra $1200 to get a 6-36 S&B over a Vortex 6-36 or $780 over a 7-35 Nightforce ? I have several Vortex 6-36 and Nightforce 7-35 just trying to decided if glass is any better on the S&B 6-36 or maybe just move up to the ZCO 8-40
No link in the post above.
But I have read the review now and appreciate the information.
Do you know what total elevation is with the different turrets, non DLR is 32mil? Also internal elevation if you know.
I have a 328i with the same cantilever Spuhr mount as you, based on your pictures I guess a 540 would get the same.
I have both a Razor 6-36 and a PMII 6-36. The Razor has a wider FOV but the image quality degrades a lot from 27-36x, while the Schmidt stays nice all the way to max. I like the bigger center dot on the Schmidt as well.
The glass is definitely better. Mirage control is noticeably better at any magnification vs the Vortex, something we noticed testing the FoV on a hot summer day here in the swamp.
I need to get some real time behind the S&B before making any judgements on its overall performance, but the scope just oozes quality and does everything well, and I expect that it will remain in my stable.
The following are some of my initial impressions on a few aspects I have gathered. I also want to preface this by saying that my style of shooting is more observational and controlled versus racing a clock comp-style, although I do hunt with my Steiner, so I can appreciate speed when needed.
Smoothest controls - S&B. Although I wish they offered the 6-36 with the separate illumination knob. I preferred the 5-25 PMII parallax knob to the current version just due to being able to grasp more of it.
Best low light image - S&B. I am guessing it has the best coatings for low light use. The T6Xi also does really well in low light due to the low end mag and 56mm objective.
Highest resolution - S&B, beating both of my ZP5’s, which is saying a lot. This is where the two more expensive scopes pull away from the Steiner and Zeiss, and the main reason I wanted the Minox scopes in the first place. The S3 was very close, as is the T6Xi, but the difference shows up in the very fine details visible on plates or on anything else at distance.
Quickest to acquire a clean sight picture for snap shots (which happens to me in hunting scenarios) on low power to around 6x magnification - T6Xi. It ever so slightly edges out the Minox which barely surpasses the S&B (which from memory easily beat the S3.) There is hardly any scope body showing on both the T6Xi and ZP5, which might help my eyes relax more and assist my brain with getting an instant sight picture. This is easily the strongest suite of the T6Xi and where I think Steiner put their emphasis. The S&B and ZP5 are not bad in any way but my 3-18 Steiner really shines here. It is also why I wish they would have slightly increased the MSR2 reticle thickness.
Easiest on my eyes at mid power, which equates to less eye strain from staying on the gun for long periods when spotting for my shooting buddy, who can take forever to pull the trigger. Tie between S&B and ZP5. Both easily beat the T6Xi and S3. There is very little eye strain on the S&B and ZP5 all the way to 25x. The T6Xi is solid in this regard up to about 12x, but some amount of CA can present itself as power increases, which can cause some eye fatigue for me. The S3 just gave me a headache if I didn’t come off the gun.
Best color contrast and best into-the-sun IQ - S3 hands down. Kinda regret selling it. I disliked the reticle and tight eye box, but the actual image was fantastic. If they come out with a more forgiving gen II S3 I will snap one up for my 22 and replace the 3-18 Riton.
Most tactile and positive turrets - ZP5. I just enjoy how they snap into place with a crisp click. Saying this, I think the S&B turrets are very well done, even if they are just a little bit tightly spaced. But the windage on the S&B is very difficult to dial 0.1 mils due to the MTC on Zero windage setting. It overruns to at least 0.2 mils every time. Not a big deal to me though because if and when I dial windage I usually come off the gun. The ZP5 click spacing doesn’t feel as tight as the S&B, but they’re close. Honestly I think I would prefer 10 mil revs on each, especially if I were to start shooting comps. There is no turret wobble between clicks on either the S&B or ZP5, as opposed to the T6Xi and S3, which feel/felt a little less locked in.
Best turret design - S&B DTII+ due to the three options it provides on the elevation. These turrets are really good and I like the MTC option. I like the idea of the T6Xi locking turret system but I think the application could be improved with taller turrets or a taller lock ring. The ZP5 turrets are stiff enough to not require a locking option.
Least CA - ZP5. I cannot induce any in either of them. There is some very slight CA in my S&B when viewing off center, but it’s so minor to be almost negligible, and none is apparent when centered up. This is one of the unfortunate compromises that the Steiner makes. The CA can be distracting at times, but it’s rare to notice it when I’m hunting. I cannot remember ever seeing CA in the S3, which impressed me.
Best illumination control for low light - T6Xi. Of note is the green center-only illumination of the MSR2 is perfect for low light use and the very finely graduated illumination settings allow you to have just enough illumination to see the reticle but not wash out a target. The red illuminated MR4 reticles on my ZP5’s seem to more easily overpower the images of targets because the whole tree is lit. Unfortunately the T6Xi illumination is too dim for bright light use on low power. This is where the S&B shines. The TR2ID illumination is unique. By only using dots, it is the best compromise I have seen of being able to still view a target in low light while being able to use the tree. And yet it can be turned bright enough to use in broad daylight. The S3 was still too bright on minimum at low light to be useful for me and the brightness graduations were too coarse.
Best illumination for use in bright light - S3 hands down, followed by the S&B. Both are great FFP options for hunting during the day in open terrain, with the S3 equaling my red dots.
I guess that didn’t answer your question but each scope has its advantages depending on the situation. If I had to keep only one though, it would be the S&B.
It actually answered everything, thank you for taking the time for explaning your use and experience behind them.
You’re welcome. Just wanted to add that unless you have the S&B side-by-side with the ZP5, you aren’t going to notice any degradation in glass quality between the two. But you might notice a loss of FOV.
I am getting 8.4 mils of reticle visible below center when zoomed to 25 power in the ZP5 and 7.6 mils with the S&B. To get the same FOV in the Schmidt, I have to lower the magnification down to around 22 power. This is the only compromise I am finding in the scope but I don’t see this being an issue. There is no tunneling at 6x and it does seem to hold its resolution all the way to 36x, but at that magnification the eyebox is so tight that I feel much more comfortable at 30x.
For what I paid for my two ZP5’s (I purchased both used but in excellent condition), I feel they are the best value out there for “alpha” quality glass. Probably similar to the Vortex gen III in that regard. It’s just that the S&B gives me more confidence that repairs will be available if needed a decade down the road.
Ben
*Edited to correct my FOV.
Last edited:
One of the small plastic plugs that is meant for a set screw hole on the windage turret has popped out. I assume it's easy enough for me to set it back, but I'm not sure which location is meant to be plugged.
I have attached pictures showing the set screw holes at 4R, 3L, and 6L. Can someone confirm which hole is meant to be plugged? I emailed S&B Europe two weeks ago and have not heard back. Thanks
I have attached pictures showing the set screw holes at 4R, 3L, and 6L. Can someone confirm which hole is meant to be plugged? I emailed S&B Europe two weeks ago and have not heard back. Thanks
Attachments
FYI, this also resolved the friction on the 2nd rev on my scope. Thanks for the heads up.
Do you own a 911 or have any experience with them or other Porsches?
-Richard
BTW Purchased a S&B 10-60 from EuroOptic month or two ago.
Have it mounted on a REM 40X 7.62 KS.
Only one range session so far as it is cold here in Wisconsin.
But so far I am happy.
But one thing to point out, the 10-60 second focal plane scope does NOT have illumination!
I had to send that one back and get a first focal plane scope to get illumination.
I own two, a 2013 Boxster and 2017 911 C4S, both ordered and purchased new by me.
These two Porsches have the best quality of any vehicles I have purchased.
The best engineering but you do pay a premium price for the quality and performance.
BTW both Porsches are Tracked and run in AutoCross, the C4S doing both summer and winter Autocross with a set of wheels with snow tires for the AWD C4S which I drive during the winter here in Wisconsin.
-Richard
What were your impressions of the scope optical performance so far? I have been eying one in FFP for a while now.
