New Sig CROSS
- Thread starter oda175365
- Start date
Now, that could be good. I'm not a hunter, so the trade-offs on this gun are not personally appealing.
On further reflection, this thing is also a candidate for a scout rifle build, and should meet the weight envelope. So there is that!
It's very sad. You can't even have a candid conversation about anything over there.
It's still amusing though. 175 FGMM requires a 1:11.25 twist for accuracy because that's what .mil uses (1:10 won't work as well apparently
), shooting off of rucksacks is more accurate then bipod and rear bag, the rem783 is the best and only budget PRS rifle, barrel nut setups are better in every way to shouldered barrels, etc - I can go on and on.Entertaining to read, but they don't like being told they're ass backwards haha.
Now back to the regular scheduled program of the new Sig rifle....
Exactly. My guess is this was a brainchild KB worked on while in the employ of Sig and Sig therefor has ownership of some of the IP. Otherwise this wouldn't be a shit talking it would be a legal matter.
This is funny - I just bought a new fix rifle with Bartlein .308 barrel to sell the barrel and re-barrel with a 16" proof in 6.5 CM.
The next day I get a news feed about the Sig Cross and immediately wonder if I wasted my money.
I'll look forward to seeing one in person, but based on the pics and videos, Aesthetics and machining definitely goes to Q on this one IMO - competition is great and I'll look forward to price drops from Q.
The thing is, other than it looking a little similar and the action/magbox being one piece that the barrel and hand guard mount to, it's really not a copy.
Looking at the action from the very non detailed pics I've seen it's a standard bolt gun other than that. I don't see how it can have the sear in the bolt like the Q does (which is a great design) so it most likely uses a standard style trigger, extraction and camming aren't going to be like the Q rifle, and I'd venture to say it has a typical 3 lug bolt design too.
There's a lot more that goes into the Fix than people realize that make it a truly great and unique bolt gun. People can call it a copy, or whatever, but it's really not, and I don't see it coming close to a Fix in any way.
It's hard for me to really like a rifle, the Fix is one of the few guns that has ever wowed me and it truly is the best all around bolt gun on the market right now.
Good to hear the differences as I'm not intimately familiar with either rifle. Both rifles look almost identical in the "chassis" area (from the folding stock junction to the front of the mag well). If the Fix is superior in machining quality and features, it will retain its customer base, almost in the sense of production vs custom rifles.
Publicly accusing your former employer of somehow stealing/copying your design when it is obvious there was collaboration at some point just comes across as having no class. If KB truly feels this way he should be having a lawyer doing his talking, not launching social media attacks. IDK maybe the drama feeds his fanbase.
Well it's not obvious that there was collaboration. Could there have been? Possibly, but neither Sig nor Q has stated as such and just because he worked for Sig and then started Q doesn't mean he ever worked on a project like this at/with Sig. He's straightforward about the original HB design being with Remington/AAC and designing cans and stuff for Sig, so if he worked on something like this at Sig I think he'd say so.
The guy has made and still makes a fuckload of money and doesn't need to sue people for patent infringements to be successful. Typically the only people that really win on that is the attorneys. He puts his taper profile up on the website and encourages others to do it (Sig does tapers on some of their guns even), I don't think he's at all butthurt that Sig tried to somewhat copy the Fix. He points out when people copy his shit all the time, and a bunch have, or have tried. I don't think he's sued anyone though because I really don't think he's a douche like so many seem to think. Watching them try and fail is probably more rewarding than shutting them down or making them pay licensing fees for using his patents.
Very true and I guess it would be subjective which is better, a foot in your mouth or foot in your ass. ???
Sig appears to disagree with this (from the Ryan Cleckner article):
When I talked to Sig about this, they didn’t shy away from my suggestion that this was their take on the lightweight and modular receiver/chassis bolt-action platform with AR-style controls and barrel/extension first brought to market by Q.
ETA: I've got no dog in this fight but will almost certainly give the Cross a go. If the Fix is a step up, I could see myself trying one out as well.
Everything that has been pictured so far are prototypes in various stages of development/refinement.I'll look forward to seeing one in person, but based on the pics and videos, Aesthetics and machining definitely goes to Q on this one IMO - competition is great and I'll look forward to price drops from Q.
I wish.
I did the accuracy barrels for the prototype development.
I have an order in for three and basket full of extensions.
Now the wait begins.
That's because that's the truth. Even Ethan Lessard, Q's main engineer, told me about the "SIG striker fired rifle" prototype project and its relation to the Q Fix rifle some numbers of years ago, and he's far from the only person to do so. It absolutely existed before Q was around and it's absolutely where the Q Fix was derived from.
Do you guys think it's just coincidence that Q was able to get the Fix rifle out for sale so quickly after starting a new company? Q was officially started 1 March 2016 and the Fix rifle was officially announced 28 December 2016 with preordering on 1 February 2017, meaning it was developed and prototyped well before then. Almost as if they had a significant head start.
My guess is SIG decided to make a less expensive, improved variant fixing the issues people were having with the bolt manipulation and stuff in the Q Fix.
Kevin was just in charge of the silencer division of SIG, not rifles. As said above, Ethan told me about the SIG rifle and it definitely is where the Q Fix came from. Q copied SIG, not the other way around. Q just happened to bring a version of it to market first.
I can't think of anyone that's copied any silencer Q has ever made, or even any feature of one. Every single feature in them is copied from other companies, copied from old patents, copied from Euro tech, or generic. He wasn't the first to put hex features on silencers, that's from 1910. He wasn't the first to use sharp angled, thin, cone baffles with porting, that's also from 1909/1910. He wasn't the first to make a 7.62 silencer with a 1.75" OD, that's been done for decades. He wasn't the first to make a silencer with tubeless construction, that's from at least 2005. He wasn't the first to use a gas sealing taper in front of threads, that's specifically mentioned in a 2006 YHM mount patent. The Cherry Bomb is copied from a 2014 European silencer mount for the HK G28 using a shallow taper in front of fine threads using a tapered barrel shoulder and using omnidirectional porting. He wasn't even the first to combine any of those features.
He hasn't sued anyone because there's nothing to sue over. A few months back he tried to send companies cease and desist letters when their Erector patent got approved, but surprise, the Erector patent was only granted based on false information because they didn't include prior art from Schultz & Larsen silencers which have been around for over a decade and they also didn't tell the patent examiner about the actual tool used for assembly/disassembly. Both of which if they were shown to the patent examiner would have prevented the patent from being granted in the first place.
But at least with the Erector series it's something that Kevin's SIG silencer division actually worked on since it originated at SIG as well. There's a video from SIG dated April 2015 titled "SIG Silencers, Epsode 1: Why SIG" which literally shows a SIG employee working on the Erector type silencer. That guy now works at Q. Either way the technology is copied from Neilsen and Schultz & Larsen.
Speaking of copying, Q also copied the Denel NTW20 primary extraction method in the Q Fix, they just put the impingement on the bolt shroud instead of on the receiver and they're trying to patent that too. We'll see if they bother to tell the patent office about that one. The trigger counterweight is copied from the HK MSG90/PSG1. Clear anodizing has been used on firearms since at least the 1960s.
But back to the SIG Cross, from what I've seen from Sean Utley using SIG ammo it groups really, really well and I'm looking forward to Bartlein/Tooley barrel options.
ETA - Deleted poorly worded info about SIG firing mechanism.
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Poor choice of words. Not like they're going to make it hammer fired. Point is it looks like they eliminated the issues with bolt lift.
Kind of like AAC in 2002, a mirror image of Gemtech right down to the catalog.
I'll be keeping an eye on the reviews, but I'm liking what I see thus far. With the weight at 6.8lb, set up with a short, light, threaded barrel from the factory, AICS mags, all kinds of adjustments for fit in the stock, I'm thinking it would make a nice suppressed hunting stick. I also really like the option for easy barrel/bolt swaps. At a ~$1,600 retail, the price is also right for poors like myself. I reckon I ought to start saving my pennies for a copy in 6.5.
Also, I'm kind of bummed that they removed the dust cover, hunting the Rockies often involves a fair amount of busting ass on slopes and in the snow. It'd be kind of nice to use the dust cover and not have to worry about trying to scoop the snow out of your action after taking a spill.
The .277 Fury is an interesting discussion in its own right. The performance they cite in this video is "over 3,000 fps with a 140gr bullet out of a 16" barrel".
That's pretty nuts, just playing around with Quickload, you'd have to run a .270 WSM at ~68 ksi or better to match those numbers. Given that they said their case is based on the .308, they have to be running an honest 100 ksi to hit those velocities. I'm guessing muzzle blast out of a 16 inch-er is really something to behold.
It's interesting that they've stated that the round can be used in other existing platforms, seems like you'd be well above the designed working loads for pretty much any action out there.
Also, I'm kind of bummed that they removed the dust cover, hunting the Rockies often involves a fair amount of busting ass on slopes and in the snow. It'd be kind of nice to use the dust cover and not have to worry about trying to scoop the snow out of your action after taking a spill.
The .277 Fury is an interesting discussion in its own right. The performance they cite in this video is "over 3,000 fps with a 140gr bullet out of a 16" barrel".
That's pretty nuts, just playing around with Quickload, you'd have to run a .270 WSM at ~68 ksi or better to match those numbers. Given that they said their case is based on the .308, they have to be running an honest 100 ksi to hit those velocities. I'm guessing muzzle blast out of a 16 inch-er is really something to behold.
It's interesting that they've stated that the round can be used in other existing platforms, seems like you'd be well above the designed working loads for pretty much any action out there.
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That's because the weakest link is the case. Many actions will take considerably more pressure than what a case allows.
But, like you, I'm interested in this rifle as well. If for no other reason than to rip the barrel and bolt head off, and turn it into something like a .223 or Valkyrie.
The fix never interested me (probably the KB effect and the additional $$$), but if this can get some aftermarket support in regards to barrels and boltheads, I would take a long look at it.
The case is definitely usually the weakest link, but in this case we aren't talking about a moderate increase in pressure. I don't see that their new case design will really do anything to limit bolt thrust, the actions will basically need to stand up to a steady diet of greater than proof load level pressures. I'd guess some might be able to, but I'd bet a lot won't.
This video shows a lower pressure brass cased version of the .277 Fury, I'd guess they were referring to this version when they mentioned interoperability with existing platforms.
I think we'll know more, once the SAAMI specs are published. It really depends on how much higher they are pushing pressures with the "improved" cases.
Not that anyone asked but here are some thoughts...
it does resemble the fix but I would Not say it’s a copy.
i think the fix has some advantages
Lift angle, trigger design, metal, sr 25 mag for capacity
I think the cross has some advantages
Price, sig name, aics mag for coal, aftermarket barrel support
I own a fix and like it. Don’t think I would get rid of it. Only mistake was buying 22in creed barrel. It really does need a light weight Barrel.
If I can get a 224v in the cross for 2k out the door (assuming I will go after market barrel) I think that would be a heck of a compliment to my fix
it does resemble the fix but I would Not say it’s a copy.
i think the fix has some advantages
Lift angle, trigger design, metal, sr 25 mag for capacity
I think the cross has some advantages
Price, sig name, aics mag for coal, aftermarket barrel support
I own a fix and like it. Don’t think I would get rid of it. Only mistake was buying 22in creed barrel. It really does need a light weight Barrel.
If I can get a 224v in the cross for 2k out the door (assuming I will go after market barrel) I think that would be a heck of a compliment to my fix
Well, hopefully berger, hornady, sierra, or nosler will invest in higher BC .277 bullets because there ain't shit for it worth a damn now.
Id flip a few on your list. Namely, the Fix trigger as a con, the SR 25 mag as a con, and lift angle as a con. There are several after market barrels for the Fix, so thats a pro. The "sig name" should be a con, and the aftermarket barrel support for the Sig is yet to be seen. Im sure the barrel makers are willing and able, but it would require Sig to support w/ extensions & bolt heads.
I agree that I'd much rather have an AICS mag for the COAL, I always thought using Pmags was kind of a miss on the Fix.
Here's an interesting clip with an interview with a Sign rep (possibly one of the engineers), the interview runs from about minutes 5 to 16.
It sounds like they are planning for more chamberings, and that they intend to sell the two part cases as components for the .277 Fury.
Here's an interesting clip with an interview with a Sign rep (possibly one of the engineers), the interview runs from about minutes 5 to 16.
It sounds like they are planning for more chamberings, and that they intend to sell the two part cases as components for the .277 Fury.
somewhere else on this form I saw a video about Sigs new squad automatic rifle. I think they referred to their two-part case design being open source so that anybody can make it
2 words..."DUST COVER" finally a solution to a problem that didn't exist on a BAR. I can finally keep my bolt open all day and not worry about crap in the receiver.
I've played with the Q Fix and thought it was pretty neat but overall it missed the mark for me personally. At the time I compared it to the RPR and I still feel that way. I am excited to see the Sig because it looks like they did a few things differently than the Fix.
The Side Chick R700 chassis is pretty neat for a chassis hunting gun. I don't hate it.
I'm curious if we'll see a R700 chassis from Sig?
The Side Chick R700 chassis is pretty neat for a chassis hunting gun. I don't hate it.
I'm curious if we'll see a R700 chassis from Sig?
A R700 chassis would be out of character for Sig. They prefer to have people buy their own systems rather than to fix those of others.
I am interested to see this rifle in hand. I think I has a lot of potential. Same with the FIX. Although the FIX landed flat on a few things that it promised. I Never liked the trigger and the bolt lift was horrible. I handled a very early sample so maybe they fixed those things.
From the video the .277 Fury is pushing a 143 gr bullet at 2900 to 2950 fps out of a 16 in barrel. That's about 2750 ft*lb of energy.
Pressures are contained by the new hybrid case.... Could the steel base on the case become a point of failure and safety risk if not made correctly?
From thinking about it, the pressure protection shouldn't depend on the mechanical strength of the attachment between the steel base and the brass side. The steel base is there being pushed by the bolt against the brass and then the chamber. As long as the steel base itself doesn't rupture it will help contain the pressure. Is this right?
Otherwise your safety would depend on quality control on every round by manufacturers making a new hybrid ammo for the first time....
If this new cartridge really works out and is safe and accurate I will be owning one.
270 Winchester speeds out of a 16” barrel an adjustable folding 6.5 pound gun that is box fed and 60-70* bolt throw all for under 1,600.00 sign me up
It doesn't depend on the mechanical connection for safety. Like an all brass case the body seals against the chamber walls. A brass case head will rupture long before a steel head will. Steel heads are nothing new. They've been used for decades in small quantities. I've never heard of a problem with the head. . Usually it's bullets coming apart from speed and RPM's. Nothings free.
Yeah strange not many have said much about the 80000 psi max working pressure of the Fury and other cartridges that could come from it later. If they pull it off and it's reliable this thing could be a game changer.
There are several companies that have developed high performance .277 rounds for the next gen squad weapon system. As far as I know all are functioning well or they wouldn't have the down select. Sig is one of those companies. Sig is offering an all brass version to start with.
All it takes is piles of money and you can make a lot of things work.
Yep
Speed costs money. How fast do want to go?
My first thought when I saw this. Was SiG finally has a rifle that will cycle. However I still don’t know if I would trust it. I’ve personally never had products fail like I have with Sig stuff. From optics to rifles. I think they have some innovative products. But the QC is lacking
There's now a detailed write-up about the hybrid cartridge in Guns America:
www.gunsamerica.com
Vs. 308:
Vs. 6.5 Creedmoor:
.277 SIG Fury Demystified
The speculation about this mysterious .277 SIG Fury has practically broken the internet. GunsAmerica spoke directly with an authoritative representative from SIG to get the scoop and figure out exactly what's going on with this cartridge.
www.gunsamerica.com
- 80,000 PSI vs. 60,000 PSI for 308
- Final rounds will achieve >3000 ft/s for 140 gr out of 16 in barrel
- Will work with existing Remington 700 actions but not recommended due to high wear on action. Actions have to be designed to handle the pressure. Sig Cross action is specifically engineered for longevity under high pressures. Sig says "“We Built the Cross rifle like a tank”
- Barrel life "way better than you are imagining"
- Working on SAAMI registration. Other manufacturers will be able to make ammo and rifles royalty free
- 6.5 on the way and possibly also long action. Will NOT be a 6.5 Creedmoor to prevent misuse
Vs. 308:
Vs. 6.5 Creedmoor:
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People that use the report button for hurt feelings should get banned. What a bunch off pussies
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Like em or hate em, Sig is gettin ur dun...
Quick thoughts:
Fantastic idea for the masses, one gun idea.
Be interesting to see if it really does much with the Precision Rifle crowd. 277 at these velocities will recoil more than 6.5creed (sounds like “slightly” less than a 308)
Be interesting to see the BC’s of new 277 bullets.
Bummer about the propriety trigger.
Sounds like we’ll see longer and heavier barrels for the Precision Rifle crowd.
Would like to see an RRS railed forend.
Sign me up for one in 277
Quick thoughts:
Fantastic idea for the masses, one gun idea.
Be interesting to see if it really does much with the Precision Rifle crowd. 277 at these velocities will recoil more than 6.5creed (sounds like “slightly” less than a 308)
Be interesting to see the BC’s of new 277 bullets.
Bummer about the propriety trigger.
Sounds like we’ll see longer and heavier barrels for the Precision Rifle crowd.
Would like to see an RRS railed forend.
Sign me up for one in 277
Is an AIAX just a barrel change away from using the fury ?There's now a detailed write-up about the hybrid cartridge in Guns America:
.277 SIG Fury Demystified
The speculation about this mysterious .277 SIG Fury has practically broken the internet. GunsAmerica spoke directly with an authoritative representative from SIG to get the scoop and figure out exactly what's going on with this cartridge.Base:
- 80,000 PSI vs. 60,000 PSI for 308
- Final rounds will achieve >3000 ft/s for 140 gr out of 16 in barrel
- Will work with existing Remington 700 actions but not recommended due to high wear on action. Actions have to be designed to handle the pressure. Sig Cross action is specifically engineered for longevity under high pressures. Sig says "“We Built the Cross rifle like a tank”
- Barrel life "way better than you are imagining"
- Working on SAAMI registration. Other manufacturers will be able to make ammo and rifles royalty free
- 6.5 on the way and possibly also long action. Will NOT be a 6.5 Creedmoor to prevent misuse
Vs. 308:
Vs. 6.5 Creedmoor:
There's now a detailed write-up about the hybrid cartridge in Guns America:
.277 SIG Fury Demystified
The speculation about this mysterious .277 SIG Fury has practically broken the internet. GunsAmerica spoke directly with an authoritative representative from SIG to get the scoop and figure out exactly what's going on with this cartridge.Base:
- 80,000 PSI vs. 60,000 PSI for 308
- Final rounds will achieve >3000 ft/s for 140 gr out of 16 in barrel
- Will work with existing Remington 700 actions but not recommended due to high wear on action. Actions have to be designed to handle the pressure. Sig Cross action is specifically engineered for longevity under high pressures. Sig says "“We Built the Cross rifle like a tank”
- Barrel life "way better than you are imagining"
- Working on SAAMI registration. Other manufacturers will be able to make ammo and rifles royalty free
- 6.5 on the way and possibly also long action. Will NOT be a 6.5 Creedmoor to prevent misuse
Vs. 308:
Vs. 6.5 Creedmoor:
The .277 Fury case must have about 60gr overflow capacity to hit those numbers at 80 ksi. I guess it's a bit blown out from the parent .308 case, or they picked up some internal capacity using a thinner steel head, or both.
I understand the NGSW required a cartridge designed around a pre-specified .277" EPR type bullet, but I'm more interested in this case design applied to the 6.5mm and 7mm bores. Both of those bore sizes have better existing bullet selections, and a 7mm Fury that nearly replicates 7mm RM performance in that Cross rifle would make a really interesting elk rifle.
