New Sig CROSS
- Thread starter oda175365
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Proprietary powder blend to hit those speeds in that case. That's the rub.
Winchester Staball maybe? What else just came out?
Winchester Staball maybe? What else just came out?
It's as much about heat resistance as wear. In machining the heat is in the chip. Not so in a barrel. As soon as heat checking occurs barrel degradation will happen rapidly in these high pressure rounds. Also we don't know if or when the hi pressure 277 Fury will reach the civilian market. I would imagine there are a few things to sort out first.
Hi,
Glad to see the cartridge information trickle down to public
.
Sad to see they watered the pressures down though from the original solicitation numbers......
SAAMI is a pain in the ass to work with!!! They act is if they are a requirement yet the foundation of SAAMI and its' "guidelines" are purely optional in the industry; so you would think they would be easier to work with in regards to changing the pressure dynamics/thresholds the industry utilizes as a whole.
Sincerely,
Theis
Glad to see the cartridge information trickle down to public
.Sad to see they watered the pressures down though from the original solicitation numbers......
SAAMI is a pain in the ass to work with!!! They act is if they are a requirement yet the foundation of SAAMI and its' "guidelines" are purely optional in the industry; so you would think they would be easier to work with in regards to changing the pressure dynamics/thresholds the industry utilizes as a whole.
Sincerely,
Theis
Interesting.There's now a detailed write-up about the hybrid cartridge in Guns America:
.277 SIG Fury Demystified
The speculation about this mysterious .277 SIG Fury has practically broken the internet. GunsAmerica spoke directly with an authoritative representative from SIG to get the scoop and figure out exactly what's going on with this cartridge.www.gunsamerica.com
Base:
- 80,000 PSI vs. 60,000 PSI for 308
- Final rounds will achieve >3000 ft/s for 140 gr out of 16 in barrel
- Will work with existing Remington 700 actions but not recommended due to high wear on action. Actions have to be designed to handle the pressure. Sig Cross action is specifically engineered for longevity under high pressures. Sig says "“We Built the Cross rifle like a tank”
- Barrel life "way better than you are imagining"
- Working on SAAMI registration. Other manufacturers will be able to make ammo and rifles royalty free
- 6.5 on the way and possibly also long action. Will NOT be a 6.5 Creedmoor to prevent misuse
Vs. 308:
Vs. 6.5 Creedmoor:
I didn’t realize the shoulder was further out than 308.
Necessary to do something to prevent someone putting one in a .308 action.....
If the bullet diameter (.284) is that much smaller than the .300 bore diameter of a 308 barrel, how much pressure does the case truly see?
I’m wondering if it’s to gain back powder capacity lost by case design/construction.
Brass is pretty soft. I would assume most of the pressure is transmitted to the chamber.
Without any real barrel restriction it wouldn’t build up near its normal pressure.
That’s why some people can fire a 223 in their 9mm pistols and not blow their hands off.
I see, you’re talking about literally putting the 277 fury in 308. Yeah, I think most force would just go around the bullet. But if they make a 6.5 fury then the blown out shoulder would prevent chambering it in a Creedmoor, which would be a dangerous situation.
Oh yeah, absolutely agreed. That would be a complete recipe for disaster.
Any thoughts about the barrel life?
Edit: ok just read the discussion above regarding coatings and heat.
That's a bummer, they are supposed to start shipping in June. I'm sure the big retailers will get some in stock shortly thereafter, I guess I'll just keep an eye on them and try to be quick on the draw when I see one in the wild.
I'll wager they'll be showing up on Gunbroker and other auction sites before box and brick &mortar stores.
I landed a Howa Mini 1500 6.5 Grendel in an HCR Mini Chassis off GB that Nate did not know had been released to the public yet.
I landed a Howa Mini 1500 6.5 Grendel in an HCR Mini Chassis off GB that Nate did not know had been released to the public yet.
You all can be the beta testers /QC for sig. il wait for the gen 2
AICS mags for the win!
This is the rifle The Fix shoulda been.
It oughta be interesting to see where 80,000 psi takes things.
This is the rifle The Fix shoulda been.
It oughta be interesting to see where 80,000 psi takes things.
this guy just put out a second video going over the adjustments on the butt stock:
The Nosler 150grn LR Accubond seems to be about it, G7 bc is 0.298, form factor around .937 so not too bad.
EDITED
Berger 170 EOL, 0.339 G7 BC, .935 Form factor.
So it falls right between the lighter 6.5 bullets that can be shot faster and the impressive Bc's of the heavy 7mms. Who would have thought being .277 ?
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Really there are 3 key points
- steel and brass case, this takes the pressure before the bolt (nothing new)
- new powder(or blending /chemistry), this may be where the bulk of the gain comes from considering case size ( think rl26 in high temp weather)
Barrel, designed to take heat. they are claiming a new or newer process. IF they have a new trick it will be interesting to see. (This one is what interests me the most)
Running at higher pressures is nothing new. We as a group avoid it to save brass and parts from committing suicide. To me alot of the gain in the ability comes from the case design. That said the other 2 pieces are what's required after you make the decision to run at higher pressure's.
Cases will be costly most likely
Powder if special will be limited
Barrel coating or treatment will be proprietary most likely for awhile.
Some of the customs especially the Mausingfield MAY be better candidates than others for the pressure.
This will take awhile to truly affect the market. Remember we have seen innovations before that fizzled away.
I hope they or someone like Hoplite can pull it off but my guess is it would initially benefit Millitary and ELR before it's truly indoctrinated into daily shooting.
- steel and brass case, this takes the pressure before the bolt (nothing new)
- new powder(or blending /chemistry), this may be where the bulk of the gain comes from considering case size ( think rl26 in high temp weather)
Barrel, designed to take heat. they are claiming a new or newer process. IF they have a new trick it will be interesting to see. (This one is what interests me the most)
Running at higher pressures is nothing new. We as a group avoid it to save brass and parts from committing suicide. To me alot of the gain in the ability comes from the case design. That said the other 2 pieces are what's required after you make the decision to run at higher pressure's.
Cases will be costly most likely
Powder if special will be limited
Barrel coating or treatment will be proprietary most likely for awhile.
Some of the customs especially the Mausingfield MAY be better candidates than others for the pressure.
This will take awhile to truly affect the market. Remember we have seen innovations before that fizzled away.
I hope they or someone like Hoplite can pull it off but my guess is it would initially benefit Millitary and ELR before it's truly indoctrinated into daily shooting.
We have been using the 140gr Berger in 6.8x43 for awhile, not as high of a G7 vs. the 170gr but it does well for long range at a much slower velocity. I have some lathe turned 105gr from GS Customs also that shoot great.
Either way, I hope the 277 Fury will work with my current stash of 6.8 bullets. I can see dropping 6.5 creedmoor and using a .277/.223 for all my shooting needs.
Do you really think they formulated a special powder for better speeds when the pressure has been upped to 80k?
I’m sure they designed a new and improved barrel coating to resist heat on their new $1,600 rifle too...
The research investment is amortized over the potentially very large army contract. Wouldn't be surprising if they did things that would not normally be affordable to a small manufacturer making a small production run.
Regarding the custom actions, would the control round feed bolt heads have more of a problem with the higher pressures than the push feeds?
Factory ammo producers use different powder formulations for different factory loads, for example, Hornady uses over 30 different "Superformance" powder formulations in their "Superformance" ammo line. Why In the world wouldn't Sig work on an optimized powder or two for this application? In one of the videos they specifically said they had developed a few powders optimized for this case and application, which is not at all surprising or hard to believe, they'd be crazy not to.
There are existing coatings and treatments that improve barrel life over naked 416 or 4140. Again, it would not be at all surprising for Sig to employ something along these lines in their NGSW submission or the Cross.
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Yeah, I know, but I'm still calling bullshit.
Up the SAAMI spec to 80k and you won't need a "magic" new powder.
Reloaders will always figure out a way to safely hit the same speeds.
And I certainly aint buying that Sig has figured out how to coat a barrel for considerably longer life.
Merry Christmas Gtscotty
Up the SAAMI spec to 80k and you won't need a "magic" new powder.
Reloaders will always figure out a way to safely hit the same speeds.
And I certainly aint buying that Sig has figured out how to coat a barrel for considerably longer life.
Merry Christmas Gtscotty
The ammo weight is supposed to be be about 20% lower (I assume vs 5.56 because of the solicitation) because of the steel base. On the machine gun variant the recoil is handled by a reciprocating barrel. Not sure about the carbine.
Info about the Sig Sauer bid starts at about 5:45 in the video below:
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The first link claims that the CROSS shot a .47 MOA 5 shot group with Federal’s 168-grain Gold Medal Sierra Matchking. it will aslo be offered in a new caibler, 277 Fury.
www.recoilweb.com
www.guns.com
SIG Cross Rifle: SIG Returns to the Bolt Action Market
Sig has chosen to re-enter the Bolt Action market, and the result is a super-modern chassis-based Sig Cross.
New Sig Sauer CROSS Rifle, Company's 1st U.S. Made Bolt-Action Hunting Rifle :: Guns.com
A precision bolt-action hunting rifle designed and manufactured in New Hampshire, Sig Sauer's CROSS was announced this week.
www.guns.com
Looks like a copy of the FIX, not sure what’s ground breaking here. No offense to anyone, but how many modern precision rifles coming with 0 moa rail. Cheap enough I guess, but nothing revolutionary here as far as I can see.
I'm guessing you own a fix, lol? I think kevin saw this at sig while he worked there. This has a better bolt throw, easily adjustable stock, and at almost half the price it's a no brainers.
Aics mags make this a precision shooters choice and 0 moa rail is nbd. Mounts with moa takes care of that.
One of these with a longer proof barrel to keep it light would really be a fun rifle
I’m looking foreword to my copy of the fix in .277 Sig fury. I couldn’t be happier that not a single $ will go to Kevin Brittingham. It looks like an improvement in every way over the fix. We can start with the AICS magazine. Would anyone else like to chime in with other improvements over the fix?
Lol. I don’t own a fix. Not a Fan of Kevin or Sig, don’t think either will end up in my safe. After seeing Sig pistol fail and looking through their scopes, just not a fan. There are plenty of rifles priced under $2,000 dollars I would buy first. YMMV.
I get it, you've been hurt. It's ok. If we demonized every company that was bringing out a gun cause they made lemons in the past, we would get zero innovation or new toys on the market. Maybe this gun is not for you but there are other people in this world of yours.
The stock will fold on an oversized bolt knob.
The first link claims that the CROSS shot a .47 MOA 5 shot group with Federal’s 168-grain Gold Medal Sierra Matchking. it will aslo be offered in a new caibler, 277 Fury.
SIG Cross Rifle: SIG Returns to the Bolt Action Market
Sig has chosen to re-enter the Bolt Action market, and the result is a super-modern chassis-based Sig Cross.New Sig Sauer CROSS Rifle, Company's 1st U.S. Made Bolt-Action Hunting Rifle :: Guns.com
A precision bolt-action hunting rifle designed and manufactured in New Hampshire, Sig Sauer's CROSS was announced this week.
That's a prototype though. It sounds like there's nothing stopping it from very very accurate, but I'm not sure production rifles would consistently live up to half moa. The barrels could be made differently, for example.
Couldn’t agree more with you. Once some barrel makers get their hands on one I’m sure pre-fits will follow shortly after.
I'm not really looking for ground breaking or revolutionary, just a good blend of the right features (lightweight, AICS mags, short threaded barrels, folding adjustable stock, user swappable barrels, etc) at a reasonable price. Not really much out there that nails this lightweight precision hunter niche as well as the Cross appears to, at a remotely comparable price. Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, so we'll see how production units turn out.
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The concept sounds right.
Actually, I'm hoping to see more companies offering their takes on that theme.
The problem with 0.277 caliber is that all the bullets available are based on 100 year old calibers like 270 Winchester with SAAMI spec chamber dimensions, and COAL's designed around 100 year old bullet aerodynamical technology. That's why there's no bullets in 0.277 which have BC's that are even close to competitive with other calibers because manufacturers couldn't fit them in a 270 Win without going over SAAMI spec COAL so why even make them. Calibers in 0.277 other than 270 Win are based off available bullets in 0.277 which again are based off 270 win.
If Sig has a chamber and COAL that's designed around dated 140gr 0.277 bullets and is too short to fit heavier bullets which benifit from advancements in modern aerodynamical technology then while Sig will have taken a step forward in case design and velocity they'll have taken a step backwards in efficiency and downrange performance.
I'd be far more interested in 277 fury if it were firing somewhere around 180 gr projectiles with BC's of around 0.750 at 2800 FPS than if it were firing the 140gr pills at 3000 FPS that usually have a BC of around 0.450. Sig needs to get this round SAAMI spec'd with a long enough chamber an COAL to fit heavier higher BC 0.277 bullets and then go develop those bullets in 0.277 for the Fury then they'll have something serious otherwise I'll have to pass.
If Sig has a chamber and COAL that's designed around dated 140gr 0.277 bullets and is too short to fit heavier bullets which benifit from advancements in modern aerodynamical technology then while Sig will have taken a step forward in case design and velocity they'll have taken a step backwards in efficiency and downrange performance.
I'd be far more interested in 277 fury if it were firing somewhere around 180 gr projectiles with BC's of around 0.750 at 2800 FPS than if it were firing the 140gr pills at 3000 FPS that usually have a BC of around 0.450. Sig needs to get this round SAAMI spec'd with a long enough chamber an COAL to fit heavier higher BC 0.277 bullets and then go develop those bullets in 0.277 for the Fury then they'll have something serious otherwise I'll have to pass.
