New Sig CROSS

[Milepost]

Negative, you're overestimating the difference in burn speed of the powders we are talking about, and the impact of the powder burn speed on normal length barrels. The powders that QL estimates should give the best velocities in the .277 Fury are in the RL17 burn speed range, they'll gain lots of velocity past 16". Also, it's not really about how much powder is "burned" by the time the bullet reaches the end if the barrel, it's about the pressure behind the bullet. As long as the force from pressure behind the bullet is higher than the force from the pressure in front of the bullet and the drag force from the barrel on the bullet, the bullet will accelerate.

People get caught up in the % of powder burned in whatever barrel length, but it doesn't directly matter, what matters is the area under the pressure curve (which you can substantially Jack up by using higher MAPs), most powders are going to give within a few percent of full burn in a 16" barrel.

Out of a 16" mocked up .277 Fury, QL estimates that 55.3 gr of RL17 should push a 140gr TGK to 2,978 fps.

For the same load in longer barrels, QL predicts:

18" - 3,065 fps
20" - 3,139 fps
22" - 3,203 fps
24" - 3,258 fps
26" - 3,308 fps

I'm not trying to shill for the .277 Fury, I just think it's interesting, and that it's past time for us to start reaping the advantages of higher pressure cases. I do plan on getting a Sig Cross early on if the promises pan out, but it will be chambered in my trusty 6.5 CreedBro.

I think you might have misinterpreted the case capacity for the 277 Fury. Usable case capacity is about 49-50 gr & total case capacity is about 58-59 gr. Not sure you can shove that much RL17 (55.3 gr) in a case that size. Just saying...

 

[Gtscotty]

...but do we really know how the common powders, like Reloader 15, will react with regards to changes in burn rate, (pressure spikes) from the added heat and pressure of running at the elevated 80 Kpsi levels?

Nope, I certainly don't, and I'd guess there hasn't been much validation of the calculations in quickload above the 65 ksi range where common cartridges top out. Definitely a fuzzy spot in the assumptions.

Hi,

Means the internal clip holding the 2 piece case causes havoc on internal burn consistency...there is a reason it was designed for a Squad Weapon program and not a Precision Weapon program.

Notice none of the other front runners in that ammo testing are releasing theirs to the public...much less the precision rifle public.

HP cases are better suited to be improved via alloys and thread together designs...not internally clipped together.

The proper single case design comes from custom blended alloys that are then machined but the cost of ensuring the "blend" of the alloys is proper in regards to alloy property differences from primer pocket to case neck damn sure makes it expensive.

Sincerely,
Theis

Sincerely,
Theis

Very interesting, thanks. I'm guessing the variable burn consistency is mostly going to show up as velocity variability and therefore vertical at longer ranges? The testers that have the Cross in .277 seem to be happy with the accuracy thus far, of course they were probably just shooting at shorter ranges since the trials were based on elk hunting trips.

I think you might have misinterpreted the case capacity for the 277 Fury. Usable case capacity is about 49-50 gr & total case capacity is about 58-59 gr. Not sure you can shove that much RL17 (55.3 gr) in a case that size. Just saying...

Perhaps, I don't have any real knowledge of the .277 beyond what's been published thus far. The overflow case capacity of 60 gr just came from playing with different case capacities based on the .277-08 case until I matched the stated performance at the stated pressure, an admittedly rough way to get an estimate. With the 140gr TGK seated at 2.86" leaves just under 54.7gr useable capacity, and the RL17 load was estimated at 104% filling ratio, crunchy but not wildly so.

The 7mm-08AI in QL has a default overflow case capacity of 58.3gr, with a 140gr SPBT seated to 2.86", the useable case capacity would be 53.5gr. Without knowing what the internal geometry of the Fury case looks like, it's hard to know whether it would have more or less capacity than the AI. A steel head could be much thinner and still be stronger, allowing for more capacity, on the other hand, the coupling features in the two part case could take up a lot of space.

I'd be surprised if the overflow capacity is way off from my guess, even if it were 58gr, as long as you can fit RL17 in at 106% fill ratio, the velocity guesstimate changes less than 20 fps.

Where did you get 58gr - 59gr for the overflow capacity, and 49gr to 50gr for net capacity?

 

[Constructor]

You suggesting that a heavier bullet would have a negative impact on terminal performance?

No, SIG designed the Fury to meet some military parameters which was a 140gr bullet going 3000 or 3100 to defeat the best armor out there. It needed to fit in a short action rifle and produce those velocities so the case needed to be big enough to get enough powder in it to produce that velocity with that bullet weight. That is why the case is as long as it is.
If they had been trying to design a cartridge to shoot long bullets in a short action they should have used a shorter case and lived with the slower velocity due to less case capacity.
I know this is the "hide" and all but the largest market for firearms is the hunting segment. It is easily 100 times if not 1000 times larger than the long range target crowd. Everyone seems to think every firearm should be designed for their own needs and wants but those of us in the business have to take into account the largest market. I don't need a cartridge that will handle a .750 BC bullet to take elk at 3-400yds, been doing it with bullets under .400 for 35 years or more.
If I wanted a long range rifle right now based on that case before they come out with any new .277 bullets I would compare the drop and drift of the best 6.5 and 7mm bullet at possible velocity from a Creedmoor sized case at 80k PSI if I was using a short action rifle then design a cat with freebore length set for the exact bullet I want to use.

 

[Ugly Dog]

Bit off topic. Watched the Born & Raised Outdoors boys whack a couple of Wyo. bulls on Youtube using a prototype Cross 6.5. Wished they would have be using the 277. Wasnt too impressed with the 6.5 results but dead is dead. This thread is interesting as hell! Carry on.

 

[JADnspav616]

I ordered two Cross rifles. Sig told my dealer it would be 10-12 months before I got them. I am thinking of cutting the 277 Fury off my order and just waiting for the 308.

That's a bummer, they are supposed to start shipping in June. I'm sure the big retailers will get some in stock shortly thereafter, I guess I'll just keep an eye on them and try to be quick on the draw when I see one in the wild.

Aw no. The Sig sponsored YouTube video said they're going to be sold this month? Am Confused

 

[srt-4_uk]

Sold isnt delivered

 

[MarinePMI]

Maybe it's just me, but when I saw this I was mildly interested. Now, I have to say, I'll probably order one. Eventually, someone will make barrels/barrel extensions. And if not, I can always stand having another Creedmoor in the collection.

 

[Steel head]

Maybe it's just me, but when I saw this I was mildly interested. Now, I have to say, I'll probably order one. Eventually, someone will make barrels/barrel extensions. And if not, I can always stand having another Creedmoor in the collection.

With a 260 “24 proof sendero is my thinking.

I don’t need a heavy prone 260 anymore.

 

[fdkay]

Lost the ability to ship them to the Western Hemisphere I heard.

Who “took” that ability away? Some red tape on this end or that end?

Apparently the German Government.
Sig firearms were found in a South American country where they were not supposed to be.
They lost export rights for several of their firearms.
Wasn't even Sig's fault.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

@THEIS - do you actually see the Army following through with this and moving to 6.8x51 completely? It seems pretty far fetched IMO

 

[Bender]

I’ll tell you this much.

How effing loud is 80k??

If anyone touches off one of these outta a 16” near me on the firing line with only a brake and no can is going to get a donkey punch in the buddies.

My head hurts just thinking about a 16” 80k load. Sheeesh.

 

[Robe]

I agree with several people in this thread talking about Sig uses the initial buyers as a test group to fix things. There will be parts upgrades. Maybe even a full blown Gen 2 as some have mentioned. It is just how Sig operates. If the military does not order it, I predict they drop it.

 

[Sticks]

I agree with several people in this thread talking about Sig uses the initial buyers as a test group to fix things. There will be parts upgrades. Maybe even a full blown Gen 2 as some have mentioned. It is just how Sig operates. If the military does not order it, I predict they drop it.

Not with the number of people breathing hot and heavy over this. Always make more money in the private sector.

 

[mark5pt56]

I predict Ruger will offer a lightened version of the RPR at SHOT. These platforms seem to be very popular.

I would like to see a .223/5.56 version of this, even a Grendel

 

[mark5pt56]

I’ll tell you this much.

How effing loud is 80k??

If anyone touches off one of these outta a 16” near me on the firing line with only a brake and no can is going to get a donkey punch in the buddies.

My head hurts just thinking about a 16” 80k load. Sheeesh.

Real loud! I recall the CA with 16" .308, even double ears sucked.

 

[THEIS]

@THEIS - do you actually see the Army following through with this and moving to 6.8x51 completely? It seems pretty far fetched IMO

Hi,

"Completely"...I doubt it.
For the NGSW...Pretty damn sure of it.
Will it be the Sig cartridge....Not from the looks of it. All evidence points to the 2 piece polymer cartridge getting the nod to advance in the prototype T&E phase.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Gtscotty]

Hi,

"Completely"...I doubt it.
For the NGSW...Pretty damn sure of it.
Will it be the Sig cartridge....Not from the looks of it. All evidence points to the 2 piece polymer cartridge getting the nod to advance in the prototype T&E phase.

Sincerely,
Theis

Are you affiliated with one of the contractors in the competition?

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Hi,

"Completely"...I doubt it.
For the NGSW...Pretty damn sure of it.
Will it be the Sig cartridge....Not from the looks of it. All evidence points to the 2 piece polymer cartridge getting the nod to advance in the prototype T&E phase.

Sincerely,
Theis

So 5.56 is here to stay, at least for carbines?

 

[J-Fonz]

This looks like a great entry level rifle to replace my RPR.

 

[Hardpan]

Just found this in the Sig 2020 catalog

 

[JADnspav616]

Big new thing rollout, typo first sentence. Shot show next week, could get interesting

 

[DJL2]

I'm interested in the Cross - I consider its competition to be something like the MRC XRR or the Seekins Havak PH2. We're talking rifles in the 6-7 lb class, generally, with varying degrees of "cool guy" stock/chassis/ergos. It's a compact rifle that's light enough, not light, to carry around and SHOULD be a decent shooter to bang around with out to moderately long range.

The Havak seems like a great rifle with a lot going for it - but, the SIG offers user swappable barrels (with AR tools) and a folding stock chassis system for similar weight and less money. If it turns out the first run is a slow trickle with a lot of product improvement...it's build or buy time for something else. If the Cross is solid...well...

I'm excited about the high pressure potential, too, but that's just icing on this cake to me. The number of folks that wanna make a precision oriented rifle that doesn't carry like a boat anchor seems to be pretty small indeed.

 

[Hardpan]

24in barrels? I’m getting one for sure.

 

[Dirty D]

I’ll tell you this much.

How effing loud is 80k??

If anyone touches off one of these outta a 16” near me on the firing line with only a brake and no can is going to get a donkey punch in the buddies.

My head hurts just thinking about a 16” 80k load. Sheeesh.

Calm yer tits Nancy, it’s not like Sig has a history of producing loud AF cartridges like the .357 Sig...

 

[physguy88]

Part 3 of the video going over some detailed features:

 

[LeadZeke]

Accuracy and barrel life. Will be really interesting to see how that turns out and what they may do to the barrels to extend it.

 

[5RWill]

Kind of foaming at the mouth for a LA variant of these to come out so i can grab a 300 PRC for way cheaper than i would building one.

 

[physguy88]

 

[5RWill]

 

[Constructor]

Ordering one in 277 Fury...9ft less drop at 1000yds than the Creedmore and they will introduce better bullets in .277 now.

 

[whiskeytower]

Im pre-ordering one, i need a new Sig piece of shit to send in and mess with their customer service dept. Why? Because its a Sig and they make the best POS on the planet.....

 

[J-Fonz]

Who is pre-ordering them?

 

[Constructor]

Who is pre-ordering them?

Only ones I have seen but after this week everyone will.

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[MarinePMI]

Only ones I have seen but after this week everyone will.

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Hmmm...scalping just a bit aren't they? Considering Sig has already stated what the "street" price would be...

 

[Bender830]

Hmmm...scalping just a bit aren't they? Considering Sig has already stated what the "street" price would be...

Not to defend xtreme but Ive only seen 1799 msrp and a best guess of 1600 at "street" pricing but I think paying an extra 100 bucks over what "street" might be isn't very scalpy for something that is probably going to be a very high interest product.

 

[MarinePMI]

Not to defend xtreme but Ive only seen 1799 msrp and a best guess of 1600 at "street" pricing but I think paying an extra 100 bucks over what "street" might be isn't very scalpy for something that is probably going to be a very high interest product.

Yeah, I suppose. Though one interview at SHOT said that the Sig rep stated a "$1499" street price...

Since that was in line with what happened to the RPR (about $200 less than MSRP), I just assumed asking for MSRP is kind of "scalp'ish"...but hey, if people are willing to pay that...<shrug>

 

[mark5pt56]

Competition is good-have you noticed upon announcement of the Cross, the CA MPR dropped at least 300?

 

[physguy88]

Yeah, I suppose. Though one interview at SHOT said that the Sig rep stated a "$1499" street price...

Since that was in line with what happened to the RPR (about $200 less than MSRP), I just assumed asking for MSRP is kind of "scalp'ish"...but hey, if people are willing to pay that...<shrug>

There seems to be some confusion around the price. One video from earlier said $1600 was the minimum advertising price whole $1800 was MSRP. Other videos said different.

 

[b6graham]

There seems to be some confusion around the price. One video from earlier said $1600 was the minimum advertising price whole $1800 was MSRP. Other videos said different.

Those are two very different things and both seem correct relative to eachother

 

[Hardpan]

Those are two very different things and both seem correct relative to eachother

The camo version is $150-200 more than the black. Maybe that’s your difference?

 

[b6graham]

The camo version is $150-200 more than the black. Maybe that’s your difference?

MAP should be 1600 based on an 1800 msrp. That makes sense dollars wise

 

[Gtscotty]

The camo version is $150-200 more than the black. Maybe that’s your difference?

That kind of sucks, I wanted the camo one, but I don't know if I want it $200 more. Jet black and blocky stands out more in the woods than you'd think it would... worse comes to worst, I reckon I know how to pilot a rattle can.

 

[perttime]

That kind of sucks, I wanted the camo one, but I don't know if I want it $200 more. Jet black and blocky stands out more in the woods than you'd think it would... worse comes to worst, I reckon I know how to pilot a rattle can.

Just call it a custom paint job.

 

[Hardpan]

That kind of sucks, I wanted the camo one, but I don't know if I want it $200 more. Jet black and blocky stands out more in the woods than you'd think it would... worse comes to worst, I reckon I know how to pilot a rattle can.

Thats a good idea. I‘ll probably end up getting a camo one though. I like that color scheme on it

 

[physguy88]

Those are two very different things and both seem correct relative to eachother

That would make sense except with every interview the price for this gun seems to go down by $100.

Here's a sig rep holding the camo version and saying it's going to be MSRP $1499.



I hope they make up their mind. Then again, if they do a few more interviews maybe the street price will hit $999 ?

 

[b6graham]

That would make sense except with every interview the price for this gun seems to go down by $100.

Here's a sig rep holding the camo version and saying it's going to be MSRP $1499.



I hope they make up their mind. Then again, if they do a few more interviews maybe the street price will hit $999 ?

even at that i wouldnt buy one. once its actually online and at dealers we'll know for sure

 

[physguy88]

even at that i wouldnt buy one. once its actually online and at dealers we'll know for sure

I find $1499 - "street" discount very tempting. I just hope it's not some scheme where they sell the rifle for a couple hundred bucks under expectations but the Sig Fury ammo costs $5 / round.

 

[DJL2]

I've been looking to get one ordered. Pretty clear where SIG has anchored the price on this thing. Saw $1700 plus asking from Xtreme and decided I don't need to be first in line that badly. $200-300 buys a fair amount of stuff...like, say, the mount I'll be putting on the rifle once I find someone not gouging me on the price. ;-)

ETA: I'll have mine in 6.5 CM...when they get spare bbls online, I'll take a .277.

 

[physguy88]

I've been looking to get one ordered. Pretty clear where SIG has anchored the price on this thing. Saw $1700 plus asking from Xtreme and decided I don't need to be first in line that badly. $200-300 buys a fair amount of stuff...like, say, the mount I'll be putting on the rifle once I find someone not gouging me on the price. ;-)

ETA: I'll have mine in 6.5 CM...when they get spare bbls online, I'll take a .277.

Doesn't it seem like one should be able to change calibers on this by changing the bolt head and barrel?

 

[Hardpan]

Doesn't it seem like one should be able to change calibers on this by changing the bolt head and barrel?

I think the 277 Fury case head is the same size as a .308 so for the first three calibers introduced you wouldn’t need to change the bolt face, only the barrel which should make it easier to switch calibers.