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New to bolt guns.
- Thread starter Idon'tCareAtAll
- Start date
I had an AI 308. Great gun but kinda heavy and I just wasn’t overwhelmed by the ergonomics. Later I sold it and bought a Howa Bravo. I gotta say I live the Bravo stock. I now have a Bergara in a Bravo and a Vudoo in an X-Ray.
That Howa shoots pretty good but wanted better. Added a Timmey trigger. As we speak I am having a Krieger barrel barrel installed and the action blueprinted.
Howa Bravo = $1100.00
Timmey trigger = $150.00
Krieger + action work = $1100.00
That Howa shoots pretty good but wanted better. Added a Timmey trigger. As we speak I am having a Krieger barrel barrel installed and the action blueprinted.
Howa Bravo = $1100.00
Timmey trigger = $150.00
Krieger + action work = $1100.00
Supposed to true up everything like the action threads and front of action/recoil lug, bolt lugs and bolt face etc. Only needs to be done to factory actions and some say not even there when they make Remage builds but buying a custom action gives you a product already machined properly so no need to do any work to it to "fix" it.
Not to mention that you generally end up with a better action faster and either similarly priced or cheaper. I have yet to see a compelling case for putting work into a factory action when you can sell it and buy a custom with better resale value and features for equal or less money, depending on what you upgrade to.
The only time I can think of that I'd do it would be if the gun had sentimental value, but that's it.
I kinda agree that a custom action is better to an extent. I also know that getting a custom action would have cost me more.
I am getting a Krieger barrel, trued action and 2 color Cerakote for $1100 out the door. Pat Peterson, the smith, comes highly recommended and he examined the rifle first and told me he has never had a problem using Howa actions for custom builds. I am quite sure the gun will shoot well and I can spend the extra on bullets.
I am getting a Krieger barrel, trued action and 2 color Cerakote for $1100 out the door. Pat Peterson, the smith, comes highly recommended and he examined the rifle first and told me he has never had a problem using Howa actions for custom builds. I am quite sure the gun will shoot well and I can spend the extra on bullets.
Starting with a custom would not have cost you more as you wouldn’t have to pay for the truing. You could get a prefit barrel for $550-600 or you could buy the Kreiger blank and had it done without sending the action out. Price would have been about the same with a custom but you would have options you don’t with the Howa and also much better resale.
When I compare the costs, I'm also talking about the price of the original action. You said it was a Howa Bravo for $1100, and I'll knock off $500 for the chassis. So that gets you to $600 for what I assume was a barreled action, which is about right for Howa BAs (which in all fairness are generally a solid value).
Because you tossed the barrel and went to a Krieger, now just that action cost you $600, but let's say you managed to move the barrel for $200 (maybe, maybe not). So you're into that action for $400, which comes with the HACT trigger I assume. I actually really like the HACT, it's fantastic for a factory 2-stage trigger, and comes with a 3-position safety.
Now, you're talking about truing and cerakote and a new barrel. The barrel is worth about $600, agreed with @Rob01 there, and in my opinion a batch cerakote is worth roughly $100, despite what you might see advertised. So, that blueprinting also ran you about $400.
So. Assuming you could sell a take-off factory Howa barrel for $200 (I'm a bit skeptical), you're into that blueprinted action for $800. Then yep you add $50 to $100, let's call it $50, for a scope base, now it's $850. Say you could get an Origin for $850 in the PX (definitely doable), now you're just out $150 for a trigger.
Which is kinda the point. The gun being a Howa skews it in your favor, since getting a R700 action (which is what most people bother blueprinting on SH) will typically run more than the $400 I "calculate" here and will come with a worse trigger if it comes with one at all; however, you're now really close to custom territory, and if you pick up one single prefit barrel here on the PX on the cheap (extremely plausible with an Origin, not at all plausible with the Howa), you've paid for that $150 difference in the trigger right there. And you have a custom action, with access to the whole R700 aftermarket. And you can then sell the action (if you ever want to) for what you paid (or more lol).
Not trying to beat you up here, just trying to save others that might read the thread from doing what even I have done, gone with a "nice factory action" and realizing later I should've just gone straight to custom. The stock Howa 1500 is an excellent value, and I think you'll be quite pleased with it. A blueprinted Howa 1500, though, is where the value gets wobbly.
ETA: And while I was typing this doctoral dissertation lol, I see that you mentioned that the barrel was shot out. That's a great moment to sell the whole thing for $8-900 as a donor for someone else's build, then drop that blueprinting money plus the sale proceeds into a new setup. I'll be putting my money where my mouth is on this one next week, when I try to move a Bergara B14 6.5CM with 1100 rounds on the factory barrel, I'll let you know how it goes haha
If you have the rifle already then that is a different situation than the OP wanting something new. A rebarrel is cheaper if you have the rifle but if starting new buying a factory rifle is not the way to go now if you want a good shooter. Maybe 15 -20 years ago but not now.
I kinda gathered that was the way you were thinking. I bought the Howa years ago whe the Bravo version first came out. I got lucky and got a good one that was giving me 1/2 moa accuracy. Many many rounds and competitions later I have noticed the accuracy going a bit but I am very used to and love the gun. So I just wanted a fresh barrel. I figured the price was right to have the action tried while I was at it. Now if I was starting from scratch I would probably start with a custom action.
It’s funny. I teach including precision rifle and we get students in with really expensive custom rifles that have no grasp of the fundamentals. I sometimes think they would be better of with a decent factory rifle and a few thousand dollars worth of ammo to put through the gun.
It’s funny. I teach including precision rifle and we get students in with really expensive custom rifles that have no grasp of the fundamentals. I sometimes think they would be better of with a decent factory rifle and a few thousand dollars worth of ammo to put through the gun.
I wouldn’t bother “truing” it one bit. It’s still going to feel like a howa. It won’t shoot appreciably better, if any better at all.
Just put a barrel on. What you save on truing, spend on the timney. The hact is still a hact even when you’ve hacked and swapped the springs.
I say but the cheapest Tikka you can find, get a prefit barrels for it and drop in a KRG or MDT chassis of your choice.
Hopefully you can save a reasonable bit of money that way and can buy a better scope.
Upgrading to a Razor Gen2 (or similar) would be a far better upgrade than going from a T3 action to a custom action IMO.
Only caveats would be if it were cheaper to buy a CTR, Tac, or Varmint over a standard Tikka + prefit then go that option.
Similarly if it was the same price or cheaper to go custom action + prefit + trigger, then go that option.
Best option IMO would be try find a used CTR (only if cheaper obviously) and drop in a KRG Bravo stock that uses CTR mags. Will be the cheapest way to enter the bolt gun world with good resale value if/when you want to upgrade.
Hopefully you can save a reasonable bit of money that way and can buy a better scope.
Upgrading to a Razor Gen2 (or similar) would be a far better upgrade than going from a T3 action to a custom action IMO.
Only caveats would be if it were cheaper to buy a CTR, Tac, or Varmint over a standard Tikka + prefit then go that option.
Similarly if it was the same price or cheaper to go custom action + prefit + trigger, then go that option.
Best option IMO would be try find a used CTR (only if cheaper obviously) and drop in a KRG Bravo stock that uses CTR mags. Will be the cheapest way to enter the bolt gun world with good resale value if/when you want to upgrade.
I did the Tikka thing, slapped it in a Bravo, hated the ergonomics of the Bravo as soon as I had to walk with the gun, dropped it in a Manners and fell in love. It's a fantastic combo. I was just playing with the Tikka next to my Origin and they're very different feeling guns. Not a better or worse thing, but a different feel of the bolt and trigger. I really like both and kinda want to keep them for different reasons. You couldn't go wrong with either one.
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I've considered going with an out of the box rifle and then dropping it into a different stock. After absorbing as much of the information and advice given here as my old brain can, I am completely sold on a custom rifle.
There are probably some advantages as far as how much I would save by buying an out of the box rifle and dropping it in a different stock or chassis. I just don't think that the advantages would be great enough for me to sacrifice. I have certain expectations.
I realize that this would be my first bolt gun, but I want it to perform to a certain level and I want to do as much as I can to reach that level.
As far as the price, it's more than I originally anticipated. However, I really had no idea what I really wanted, so I really didn't know how much I would need to spend to reach my goal.
I have taken the advice, information, and ideas given here to study in a more focused manner and to figure out what I want.
I appreciate you all for taking the time to help me.
There are probably some advantages as far as how much I would save by buying an out of the box rifle and dropping it in a different stock or chassis. I just don't think that the advantages would be great enough for me to sacrifice. I have certain expectations.
I realize that this would be my first bolt gun, but I want it to perform to a certain level and I want to do as much as I can to reach that level.
As far as the price, it's more than I originally anticipated. However, I really had no idea what I really wanted, so I really didn't know how much I would need to spend to reach my goal.
I have taken the advice, information, and ideas given here to study in a more focused manner and to figure out what I want.
I appreciate you all for taking the time to help me.
Just curious, how does the cost of having a gunsmith attach the barrel to the action compare to the cost of me buying my own tools and doing the work myself. I'm not worried about the skill to do it, just the cost.
For you to buy an action wrench and barrel vise shouldn’t be more than $150 and then you have them. Smith wouldn’t be much to just screw it into the action as the real work is the threading and chambering and if buying a prefit then that’s done. Buying and having the tools would be my advice.
+1 unless you have a specific reason why you want something different from the pre fits currently available
specific barrel length (ie shorter), contour, twist, etc.
I'm pretty confident that I know how an Enclosed Mechanical Ejector works and even what it looks like. Just in case, on a Bighorn Action can someone please attach a photo showing the bolt in the rear position and showing the ejector part that is part of the action?
Also, on the Origin Action the recoil lug is pinned, does this create a weaker point that could possibly cause a failure compared to other methods of attaching the recoil lug? I guess that here would be the place to describe more what the recoil lug does.
I hope that I'm not over thinking this, but, the engineer in me is wanting to understand as much as I can.
Oh, yeah, please know that I have done extensive research into each topic and have not found adequate information before I pose a question here. I'm not being lazy and just asking the question in hopes that y'all will do the work for me.
Thank you.
Also, on the Origin Action the recoil lug is pinned, does this create a weaker point that could possibly cause a failure compared to other methods of attaching the recoil lug? I guess that here would be the place to describe more what the recoil lug does.
I hope that I'm not over thinking this, but, the engineer in me is wanting to understand as much as I can.
Oh, yeah, please know that I have done extensive research into each topic and have not found adequate information before I pose a question here. I'm not being lazy and just asking the question in hopes that y'all will do the work for me.
Thank you.
You are over thinking it... the pin just positions the lug but there's no force on the pin and there's no issue there. Some do prefer an integrated lug just to not have to mess with it, but that pinned lug is why you can change the lug thickness and use a barlock or such device on it too so, it's a trade off as with everything in life. Its not an issue of any weak point or not though. The origin is an outstanding action and mine is the smoothest and slickest action I've had or have. I love that thing. I've said it before, if Zermatt ever makes a QC action, I will go to that. I love their stuff and the support behind it is equally awesome. You won't go wrong with an origin action.
You can see how the ejector enters the slot at the end of the bolts travel to flip the case out to opposite way though the port. How hard it ejects depends entirely on how hard you run and make it eject.
Yes, the pinned lug is a theoretical weak point when compared to an integral lug but in practice it doesnt matter. It just requires you to put the pin in the slot when you spin the barrel on, its no problem.
What a recoil lug does? Pretty obvious. Its the interface between stock and cylindrical action that provides a solid stop against the opposing recoil forces between the two.
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and then you have the tools down the road
i have ~10 origin/tl3 barrels and can swap them (plus bolt/bolthead) in a few minutes
I have (3) TL3's and would tell you going with an origin would be your best route. Barrels are easy to come by and the CS from Zermatt if ever needed is world class.
Defiance has an option to install a 3 position safety and modify a Triggertech to work with it.
I’d chime in that you should add some headspace gauges to the cost of changing your own barrels, about $70 per pair per cartridge family. But. Maybe Many people use sized or virgin brass to check headspace and it works just fine, I just like to play it safe (plus nicely machined chunks of metal are just cool lol).
Knowing that the bolt lug being pinned is not a real issue is comforting. Maybe it was just an issue on the particular brand action that I was reading about. It was not an Origin, but, I can't remember what brand it was.
Thanks for the photo, @spife7980. That's pretty much what I pictured in my mind.
Thanks for the photo, @spife7980. That's pretty much what I pictured in my mind.
The ARC Nucleus 2.0 is another option for just a bit more than the Origin with similar features(mechanical ejector, swappable bolt heads, pinned recoil lug).
Pinned recoil lugs have never been an issue. They are a good feature to allow you to change barrels at home and not worry about recoil lug alignment. Lots of custom actions with them and people have been pinning 700 lugs for a long time. Don't stress it and overthink it.
Over thinking has kinda been a trademark of mine for many years.Pinned recoil lugs have never been an issue. They are a good feature to allow you to change barrels at home and not worry about recoil lug alignment. Lots of custom actions with them and people have been pinning 700 lugs for a long time. Don't stress it and overthink it.
Don't forget the cost of having to drive the action to the smith and back.
If you use a courier, then you have to deal with the possibilities of delays and theft.
Definitely buy the tools. Plus the barrel vise has many secondary uses.
Having a barrel vice would be nice. I can trash the wooden one that I made to use on ARs. I will not be posting pictures.
Well, it turns out that all the competitions at the local range were either 22's or lever actions and revolvers.
I'm going to put the action and barrel on order. I'll order a chassis or stock when I finally decide. The trigger and the tools don't have a wait time, like the barrel and action, so I'll order them later.
I know that I've already said it, but I truly appreciate all the help. I am extremely excited. I just hope that I don't really have to wait 3 months for the barrel.
I'm going to put the action and barrel on order. I'll order a chassis or stock when I finally decide. The trigger and the tools don't have a wait time, like the barrel and action, so I'll order them later.
I know that I've already said it, but I truly appreciate all the help. I am extremely excited. I just hope that I don't really have to wait 3 months for the barrel.
They do have one .22 match that looks like one I would enjoy. I don't think that my 10/22, even though I have a "match" barrel, would be much count in the competition or against the rigs that I saw Saturday. There were some nice looking setups. I didn't get a chance to fondle, I mean hold, any.
There are more matches next week and more ranges, so I'm not giving up. That's just not my style.
I live in the SC Midlands, if anyone has some info on ranges and matches. I would like to see how my .224 valkyrie stacks up against others.
There are more matches next week and more ranges, so I'm not giving up. That's just not my style.
I live in the SC Midlands, if anyone has some info on ranges and matches. I would like to see how my .224 valkyrie stacks up against others.
What optic is that? Surprised the scope clears the barrel with such low rings
Hell of a rifle to hold consistent 1/4 moa at 200 yards though
It’s a budget scope Millet LRS 6-25x56. It’s got 35mm tube so I just use the rings it came with their super high hence the kydex cheek restWhat optic is that? Surprised the scope clears the barrel with such low rings
Hell of a rifle to hold consistent 1/4 moa at 200 yards though
Ya post pics of this "0.55” group at 200" or ....What optic is that? Surprised the scope clears the barrel with such low rings
Hell of a rifle to hold consistent 1/4 moa at 200 yards though
Better yet, post pics of four or five of them on the same targetYa post pics of this "0.55” group at 200" or ....
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Not sure if any close matches near Columbia but I know Coleman’s Creek in Ellerbe NC which is about 2 hours away does. There’s a training place down near Aiken that runs matches from time to time.
0.55 was with ruler. SW give me 0.7 so I was off but not to badYa post pics of this "0.55” group at 200" or ....
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Aiken is 42 minutes away, Ellerbe is about 2-1/2 hours.
ATAFT, I think is the training place in Aiken. Is Colemans Creek Long Range Shooting Terrain worth 5 hours of driving in one day?
I'm going to keep looking for places to shoot. I know of a few more within an hour. If I have to drive up to Ellerbe for the type of experience I'm looking for, I guess I'm NC bound.
@Rob01, how far are you from Ellerbe?
Does anyone have any experience with Panteao Sportsman's Club in Swansea, SC?
Anyone else near Columbia, SC?
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I thought the place in Aiken was GTI or something like that at the old nuclear plant. I shot a match down there before.
I am about 1:45 from Coleman’s Creek which is in Ellerbe. I used to be a member but too far to drive regularly.
There is a GTI (Government Training Institute) in Barnwell, SC. Not too far from Aiken. They must have occasional matches.
Anyone on the east side of Augusta, GA?
