New to reloading 6.5 Creedmoor, question about velocity

[stereo.pete]

I have a Tikka T3X CTR chambered in 6.5 creedmoor with a 24" factory barrel. I've shot approximately 300 rounds of prime ammunition through it and I am now starting to reload since I have so much brass laying around.

Here are my components...
Prime once fired brass
Hornady 140gr ELD-M bullets
H4350 Powder
CCI 200 LR primers

Reloading Equipment:
Redding Type S Match bushing FL Die
Redding Type S Match seating die

After measuring the lands in my rifle, I settled on a COAL of 2.89, which puts me at .02 off the lands.
Following the Hornady Reloading manual, I started at 39 grains and went up in .3 increments up to the max of 4.14 (actual max is 41.5). The velocity was measured with my Magneto Speed and the temp outside was 27F.

Velocity by Grain
1. 39 - 2455
2. 39.3 - 2434
3. 39.6 - 2464
4. 39.9 - 2488
5. 40.2 - 2483
6. 40.5 - 2511
7. 40.8 - 2531
8. 41.1 - 2551
9. 41.4 - 2594

Here's a picture of the ladder test, unfortunately I was unable to use the 200 yard range due to a class going on, so I was stuck with 100 yards. I did my best to keep track of the rounds as I shot them. Based on what I've read on how to evaluate a ladder test, I should really be looking at a charge between 3-5, but again if I plan on competing in PRS style matches with this rifle, I feel the velocity is way too low. Any thoughts? I also saw no pressure signs on the brass/primers at 41.4 grains of H4350.

 

[HoustonB77]

Proceed with caution but I would up the powder charge. You should be able to get close to 2800 with 140s in that tikka.

 

[canezach]

Based solely on your velocities, I would look into the 39.9 to 40.2 range, but that’s a really low node. If you’re an experienced loader and know how to read pressure signs, I would continue into higher charges where you’ll likely find a higher node as well. You may have a really slow barrel, but with Prime brass, 140 ELDM, and 41.0 grains of Reloder 16, I’m over 2750 FPS. Yes, you should see an increase in MV with RL16 over H4350, but not 200 FPS. I’m not necessarily saying there’s anything wrong with a slower round, but if you want to maximize your round’s capabilities, you need it going a bit faster.

By chance do you have chronic data for the Prime ammo for comparison?

 

[stereo.pete]

Thank you @HoustonB77 and @canezach for taking the time to reply. In response to your question about the prime ammo, I shot a quick three shot group with factory prime 6.5 creedmoor just to ensure my zero was good to go, since I recently had to remount my scope.

I don't recall the exact FPS, but I recall remarking to my friend that it was indeed much slower than what the box stated. I'm talking ~100 fps or more slower.

 

[canezach]

Wow, that isn’t really good to hear. Prime lists their MV as 2850 or 2900 if I remember correctly. I remember Prime shooting in the low 2900s through my 24” Krieger barrel, but if you’re 100 FPS lower, that means you’re sending a 130 gr bullet in the mid to upper 2700s. You might be able to squeeze 2700 out of your rifle with a 140, but you’ll have to go higher in your loads and really pay attention to what your spent cartridges are telling you. If that lower node shoots well and you’re content there, then don’t worry about pushing it. You’ll just need to recalculate your BC or true your ballistic calculator

 

[GIXXER2000]

Here is my 24in barrel DATA. Would 1/2 MOA or better and have shot out to 1400 Yard in a match.
Bullet 140 Berger Hybrid
Brass Hornady
Primer CCI BR2
Powder H-4350
Charge 43.0gr
AVG FPS 2798
SD 10
COAL 2.87

 

[aaronk]

Most people seem to be running between 42-43g of H4350, depending on bullet. For the 140g ELD M you should be able to get 2,700+ pretty easily, box velocity for factory 140g ELD M is 2,710. Based on your first ladder I'd do 41.5g - 42.5g as a follow up, 41g to 42g if you wanted to be more conservative.

Great looking Tikka by the way!

 

[stereo.pete]

Thanks again @canezach, @aaronk, and @GIXXER2000 for the insight. I will conduct another ladder test either this week or next and step up the chargers and monitor very closely for over pressure signs. Perhaps I just have a freakishly slow barrel. I know she's accurate and I have no problem taking her out to 600 and ringing steel all day long with prime ammo, I was just thrown off by the extremely low velocities.

Could this be an issue with the Magneto Speed v3, just wondering?

 

[GIXXER2000]

I never shot factory ammo so no reference on that. The Bartlein barrel I used seemed to be a fast barrel. I have a 26in Bartlein barrel I can push to 2840 but it wont group better then 3/4 MOA so I aback down to 2810 and groups shrank back under 1/2 MOA.
The only time I ever had any issue with a Magneto Speed was when the batteries were weak.

 

[goinghunting]

I have the twin to yours, same stock even with a gen 2 razor, had to look twice cuz I have a picture just like that... I get 2820 avg out of the Prime, 2829 with 140 Amax in Hornady Brass and 43.6 gr RL16 jumping .030 and zero pressure signs until 44.2 I believe... Have not shot any of the Prime brass I have loaded with 143 Eldx yet.

 

[stereo.pete]

Thanks @goinghunting , I'm going to report back when I do the second round of ladder testing. Is it worth trying a different powder, could my 6.5creedmoor be the only one that doesn't like H4350 ?

 

[goinghunting]

I've been tempted to try some H4350, the RL16 I had was ok, about .7" @100yds and a SD of 7, ES of 12 with the Amaxs I had left over I believe. The factory Prime 130 was around .5" at 100, did well out to 820yds I think was the farthest I've had it... That was last summer though.

 

[canezach]

I’ve had the exact opposite results with RL16. Tight little groups, no unexplained fliers, excellent temp stability. I bought a few pounds when it was first released and liked it so much I bought 24 more pounds. Just goes to show what works for one rifle might not work for another.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

RL 16 gets those 140’s moving. In my POS Hornady Brass I had them moving at 2900 with no pressure signs... I settle on a node right around 2820. I ain’t saying 4350 is bad but RL16 from what I’m hearing and seeing is a bit faster... maybe I’m wrong.

Does you dope match up using those mv’s?

 

[stereo.pete]

@DrainTheSwamp2017 I've only taken the Prime 130's out to any distance (600yards) and the dope provided by Vortex's LRBC matches with the specs provided on the box. It has me dialing up 16 MOA for 600 yards with Prime 130 using the velocity listed on the box and I can hit steel all day long, so I'm not sure what to think of it.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

I guess I’d just try bumping up the powder if you feel comfortable. 4350 should at least get you in the mid 2700’s without pressure probs. I’d take a 2700 load if it shot but most of the time I just find something in the 2800’s that shoots under .8” with es under 20-25.

And when I did ladder tests I really liked to be at 400-600 yards. Now I started just going off chrono numbers and find velocity flat spots with low sd/es. Saves a lot of trips driving down range

 

[spife7980]

Yes, make sure that you’re shooting it as far out as possible, the further it is the better you’re results will be.

Make sure the chrono isn’t too far away from the barrel and that it’s setting is on normal and highly sensitive. You want the square check rod to just enter the bore space but just barely.

If you’re going to proceed higher read this and be vigilante
https://www.primalrights.com/library/articles/understanding-pressure

 

[supercorndogs]

You can do a lader over a chromo, but a lader at 100 will not show flat spots because the harmonics effect the POI more than the drop.

 

[TimeWillTell]

Just to add more data: my 24" Krieger shoots prime ammo at 2937.

42.0 H4350 with a 140 amax (I have a ton of these still) in resized 308 lapua brass is 2855 fps. Hornady brass took 42.9 to achieve same velocity.

 

[Ritterbruder]

I also have a factory Tikka CTR 24” 6.5CM. Brand new gun with only 230 rounds through it. My load is with Lapua brass, 140 ELDs, and CCI #400 small primers. I tried H-4350 and RL-17, and I was getting pretty low velocities too compared to what others are getting.

With H-4350, 41.5 grains gave me 2650 FPS. I ended up settling with 43 grains of H4350, 2740 FPS with an SD of 3.2.

With RL-17, my load is 41.6 grains and I get 2710 FPS with an S.D. of 2.5.

No pressure signs with 43 grains of H-4350. A very slight flattening of the primers on the RL-17 load, but nothing to freak out about. Both loads can shoot 1/3 MOA at 300 yards. Do be cautious and work your way up. It may be just that the Tikka rifles have a tighter or looser bore.

 

[stereo.pete]

Good to know I'm not alone @Ritterbruder , thanks for sharing.

 

[Ritterbruder]

Nope, thank YOU for sharing because I was beginning to wonder if I was alone

 

[Vmax97]

Has anyone experimented with IMR 4064 and 140gr SMKs? I reload for .308 and have a ton of 4064 and Varget, I will be starting out with these once I find a recipe to start with.

 

[canezach]

Has anyone experimented with IMR 4064 and 140gr SMKs? I reload for .308 and have a ton of 4064 and Varget, I will be starting out with these once I find a recipe to start with.

There are a lot of loads using Varget, but only for the 120s. The issue with Varget and the 140s is velocity. You can’t get enough Varget into the case to reach adequate velocities with the 140s before you see pressure signs. Same goes for 4064. You’ll sacrifice a lot of velocity with the heavier bullets.

 

[Ritterbruder]

4064 and Varget burn a bit too fast for 6.5 Creedmoor. You will overpressure the case before you get your velocity to where you want to be. You might have some luck with lighter bullets, but certainly not for 140's.

As a general rule: the smaller the caliber, heavier the bullet, and larger the case, the slower the powder should be in order to get desired velocities without pressure signs.

 

[wade2big]

Im not a reloader but shoot factory ammo in all weather conditions and document. Remember the OP is shooting in 24 degree weather. He will gain close to 100 fps when the temps hit 85 degrees. That slow load isnt so slow anymore. To get 2800 plus fps in 24 degree weather i am sure he will have problems as the temp raises.

Edit: deleted my edit note

 

[Ritterbruder]

100 fps gain for a 60°F increase seems a bit high for H-4350. It's supposed to be one of the less temperature-sensitive powders.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

 

[wade2big]

100 fps gain for a 60°F increase seems a bit high for H-4350. It's supposed to be one of the less temperature-sensitive powders.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/06/19/powder-temp-stability-hodgdon-extreme-vs-imr-enduron/

You may be right. I am only speaking on factory ammo. I went from 2650 out of my 24” tikka at sea level 85 degrees to 2575 at 40 degrees. American gunner. Lost a little over 50fps with fgmm 308 175 grain. This isnt chrono data. It is live fire trued at 800 yards. Im fortunate enough to have my own private range outside my house.

Edit: looked at my notes and shot these speeds at 45 degrees. Roughly 1.5 fps loss per 1 degree F

 

[stereo.pete]

Alright, I finally made it back to the range with my new range of charge weights. I shot three ladder tests, and let the barrel cool down between each set. Let me know what you think.

Again, I'm using Hornady 140grain ELD-M bullets
H4350
Prime Brass
CCI LR 200 primers

Temp for the day was right at 35F

Charge Weight | Test 1 | Test 2 | Test 3
1. 41.5 | 2609 | 2601 | 2603
2. 41.8 | 2621 | 2636 | 2624
3. 42.1 | 2622 | 2635 | 2653
4. 42.4 | 2657 | 2654 | 2649
5. 42.7 | 2680 | 2660 | 2661
6. 43.0 | 2682 | 2690 | 2671
7. 43.3 | 2705 | 2719 | 2706
8. 43.6 | 2746 | 2725 | 2733
9. 43.9 | 2754 | 2750 | 2764

**No pressure signs across the entire test.

Thoughts? I think I'm more confused now that before. @HoustonB77 @canezach @GIXXER2000 @goinghunting @Ritterbruder @spife7980 @DrainTheSwamp2017

 

[spife7980]

If you shot a ladder test then you should be looking at the target, not chronograph data. Paper doesn’t lie

 

[snorkygunner]

I'd say around 41.9 or 42.4-42.7 if you're looking for flat spots. Aside from your first 42.7 shot, the 42.4-42.7 range was pretty close.

 

[canezach]

I agree with Spife on this one. If you shot a ladder or OCW, your target should tell you where your node is.

With that said, if you look at your average MV between 41.8 and 42.1, you're in a decent flat spot of velocities. Your average MV at 41.8 is 2627 and the average at 42.1 is 2636, with SDs of 7.9 and 15.5, respectively. My issue with those charge weights is you have one outlier MV of 2653 in your 42.1 group that really throws your ES and SD off. The rest of the MVs for those two charges basically overlap (2621 vs 2622 and 2636 vs 2635). I don't know if you threw a little heavy in that one round, but I would load up ten at 41.9 for chrono data and try a seating depth test to fine tune the loads.

 

[Bacarrat]

If it's that cold when you are shooting, when it gets warmer, you are going to be picking up a lot of speed. I run just about the same components and with a 43.7gr load of H4350 and the 140gr ELDs, I can get anywhere from 2705-2799FPS depending on the temp. I use this load as my control load when I am testing out new components. I just ran it through my gun yesterday and it was reading 2735FPS avg with a SD of 5.8. The other week I also chronoed the same load and it was 2705FPS with a 11fps SD. In the Summer last year, the same exact load shot 2799 with a SD of 3.7. All this with a GAP chambered 20" barrel, bullets seated to 2.90, which is .010 off the lands. While people might say H4350 is not temp sensative, that might be true somewhat, but from what I am seeing it doesn't always mean the speed is going to be constant.