New to this, Looking for some help... I am looking for an older post on ladder test development. One of the best I have read and cant seem to relocate it. It recommended 300 then 600 yds. 10 rds. etc. if this rings a bell? any direction appreciated
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New to this... looking for some help, trying to locate a ladder test post that was quite awhile back on simplifying this method of load dev.
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LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You
For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.
10 Round Load Development Ladder Test
Identifying a consistent and accurate load for your precision rifle while improving the overall efficiency of the load development process is a laudable goal. The 6.5 Guys met with Scott Satterlee …
www.65guys.com
Long-Range Load Development
Reloading for long range shooter. Accurateshooter.com is the best guide for benchrest and precision shooting, complete with PPC, 6BR, 243, 223, 308, 7mm Cartridge Guides, Reloading, Shooter Message Boards, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips...
www.6mmbr.com
LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You
For all those people who find it more convenient to bother you with their question rather than to Google it for themselves.lmgtfy.com
I usually don’t have a problem finding/searching for what I’m looking for, but for future reference is there a number of searches that should be attempted or certain subjects off limits so we don’t bother you? I’m sure the OP making his first post would like to know also.
Mike
Can you tell him where to find whatever he is looking for? No. Because youve been given zero to go off of. So instead of copy pasting every generic link here how about we just take him to the source of every generic link to look for himself until he can offer up anything resembling a useful bit of information to go off of.
Ask stupid empty questions and youll get stupid empty answers.
It also would help if the search function was actually capable of finding shit.
Have to go go google enter topic Snipershide to find anything around here.
Have to go go google enter topic Snipershide to find anything around here.
You get slightly better results if you use the modifier "site:forum.snipershide.com" which narrows the search to just this site.
Example....
"load development 10 rounds site:forum.snipershide.com"
Okay.... so I spent two hrs searching for the particular thread I mentioned before posting to ask for help. its fair to note when it comes to computer abilities i am basically a window licker LOL. That said, additional info on the article I am searching for the author mentioned using his friend down range to mark each progressive shot in order of succession. If this rings a bell with anyone ? I realize its not much to go on but thank you for your consideration.
Lets just start our own. Instead of having the friend mark each shot, get a sharpie and color the bullets and shoot them onto white paper, you can see the ink left on the paper denoting which charge weight each shot was.
I just use one color per bullet unlike these with several colors on each. Same idea though.
The problem with searching for threads like that is that there is a thread like that every week lol
Unless you have one particular term or keyword whatever its a real pain in the ass to ever find something from way back.
I just use one color per bullet unlike these with several colors on each. Same idea though.
The problem with searching for threads like that is that there is a thread like that every week lol
Unless you have one particular term or keyword whatever its a real pain in the ass to ever find something from way back.
Possibly this one?
Long-Range Load Development
Reloading for long range shooter. Accurateshooter.com is the best guide for benchrest and precision shooting, complete with PPC, 6BR, 243, 223, 308, 7mm Cartridge Guides, Reloading, Shooter Message Boards, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips...
www.6mmbr.com
Thankyou. this is a great article and will do the trick!10 Round Load Development Ladder Test
Identifying a consistent and accurate load for your precision rifle while improving the overall efficiency of the load development process is a laudable goal. The 6.5 Guys met with Scott Satterlee …
Long-Range Load Development
Reloading for long range shooter. Accurateshooter.com is the best guide for benchrest and precision shooting, complete with PPC, 6BR, 243, 223, 308, 7mm Cartridge Guides, Reloading, Shooter Message Boards, and Photo Gallery. Match event calendar and rifle competition accuracy training tips...www.6mmbr.com
Youre right, I searched every way I could for it without success. This article will work great tho. Thanks for the help.
I would avoid the "10 shot Satterlee method" - it's statistically irrelevant and the so-called "nodes" aren't really there in actuality.
I say this as someone who used the "Satterlee" method for a better part of 2 years. I've come to find out that my real nodes (with lowest SD/ES) weren't the so called nodes you would pick out on the Satterlee method/ladder. Not a single one of my current loads (all SD of 5 or less over 10+ shots) would've been identified as the node in the "Satterlee method". This I've proven time again to myself through three different cartridges (6BRA, 6.5 Creedmoor and .300NM) and through multiple barrels.
Don't believe me? Load up a few identical ladders and compare for yourself. I first started using the "Satterlee method" as it seemed really convenient (which appears to be your motivating factor as well), but actual performance down range has led me conclude that I need to use other methods to optimize my loads.
I say this as someone who used the "Satterlee" method for a better part of 2 years. I've come to find out that my real nodes (with lowest SD/ES) weren't the so called nodes you would pick out on the Satterlee method/ladder. Not a single one of my current loads (all SD of 5 or less over 10+ shots) would've been identified as the node in the "Satterlee method". This I've proven time again to myself through three different cartridges (6BRA, 6.5 Creedmoor and .300NM) and through multiple barrels.
Don't believe me? Load up a few identical ladders and compare for yourself. I first started using the "Satterlee method" as it seemed really convenient (which appears to be your motivating factor as well), but actual performance down range has led me conclude that I need to use other methods to optimize my loads.
First I'll load up a ladder (after breaking in the barrel and finding a bullet seating depth it likes - see below), just to get an idea of what powder charges give me what velocities, and where my pressure starts. I will not be looking for any so-called nodes here. Ladders are generally loaded up in increments of ~0.2 grains, over a total spread of perhaps 2 grains. For 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350, I would probably load up a ladder from 41.5 - 43.0 grains (lapua brass, BR4 primers, 140 Berger Hybrids).
Usually, from previous barrels, I'll have an idea of what velocities I want with certain bullets. For example, my 24" 6.5 creedmoor with 140 Bergers like to be shot at ~2830 fps. So I will load up groups of 5 of some charges around that 2830 fps that I saw on the ladder.
Here's a simplified example (made up for this example):
Ladder:
- 42.0 grains H4350: 2790 fps
- 42.2: 2810
- 42.4: 2830
- 42.6: 2845
- 42.8: 2860
- 43.0: 2878 - signs of pressure (heavy bolt lift, ejector marks on brass)
I know from previous experience that I want to be around 2830 fps (this has produced the lowest SD/ES), so I may load up 5 rounds of 42.3, 42.4, 42.5, 42.6 H4350, and shoot them in their respective groups over a chronograph to see which gives the lowest ES/SD.
Barrel break-in/bullet seating depths:
I use Berger Hybrids in 6mm, 6.5mm and .30 cal, and have found that they like to be jumped in the range of 0.005" to 0.020". While breaking in the barrel, I will load up groups of 3-5 in increments of 5 thou in that range above (0.005" to 0.020"), and shoot them in groups of 3-5 to see which produces the tightest groups at 100 yards. While the velocity of your barrel while change/speed up as you break-in the barrel, the small (generally 120 fps or less) change in velocity won't have much of an effect on group size (Houston warehouse shooters tested and proved this). So you can at least get this knocked out while breaking in the barrel.
This method has worked well for me, and has produced loads that shoots in the 1/3 - 1/2 MOA (and better) with SD's of 5 or less. As much as I wanted the "Satterlee Method" to work out of convenience, it just didn't produce the best results. Statistically you don't have enough data points to make the data relevant.
Usually, from previous barrels, I'll have an idea of what velocities I want with certain bullets. For example, my 24" 6.5 creedmoor with 140 Bergers like to be shot at ~2830 fps. So I will load up groups of 5 of some charges around that 2830 fps that I saw on the ladder.
Here's a simplified example (made up for this example):
Ladder:
- 42.0 grains H4350: 2790 fps
- 42.2: 2810
- 42.4: 2830
- 42.6: 2845
- 42.8: 2860
- 43.0: 2878 - signs of pressure (heavy bolt lift, ejector marks on brass)
I know from previous experience that I want to be around 2830 fps (this has produced the lowest SD/ES), so I may load up 5 rounds of 42.3, 42.4, 42.5, 42.6 H4350, and shoot them in their respective groups over a chronograph to see which gives the lowest ES/SD.
Barrel break-in/bullet seating depths:
I use Berger Hybrids in 6mm, 6.5mm and .30 cal, and have found that they like to be jumped in the range of 0.005" to 0.020". While breaking in the barrel, I will load up groups of 3-5 in increments of 5 thou in that range above (0.005" to 0.020"), and shoot them in groups of 3-5 to see which produces the tightest groups at 100 yards. While the velocity of your barrel while change/speed up as you break-in the barrel, the small (generally 120 fps or less) change in velocity won't have much of an effect on group size (Houston warehouse shooters tested and proved this). So you can at least get this knocked out while breaking in the barrel.
This method has worked well for me, and has produced loads that shoots in the 1/3 - 1/2 MOA (and better) with SD's of 5 or less. As much as I wanted the "Satterlee Method" to work out of convenience, it just didn't produce the best results. Statistically you don't have enough data points to make the data relevant.
thank you all so very much...didn't mean to hijack the thread but really appreciate the info...will review it just now
I think this might be the thread you saw that mentioned his friend down range. I remember because I read all of these posts when I started hand loading. There are 5 I think, all in the sticky section. All 5 are worth reading.
Hand Loading for Long Range Ch 4: Powderin’ the thing.
Here we are again. We’re all fired up about hand loading like the big dogs. We got our brass about as perfect as we can & primed, our bullets are in perfect little sorted piles and their noses are clean. We got a great overall length to start with. Now for the last big part- fueling that baby.
But before we get going here let me reiterate a SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT safety note. One of the things we are going to do as upper level hand loaders is to use the book as a guide- but we’re going to decide what the max load is for our own dang self! HA! (insert Tarzan yell)
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">And in doing so it is imperative you understand this.</span> </span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold">In the last chapter we learned how to come up with a great starting point in overall length. We found where the bullet was just kissing the riflings, and we extended that position + .010”. So in experimenting with powders and ALL the below instructions we are going to do so WITH EVERY ROUND .010” JAMMED into the riflings. IF YOU DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE & WHY- DO NOT LOAD (near) BOOK MAX, MUCH LESS OVER!!! If the load starts with the bullet jammed into the rifling with all other things being even you WILL GET significant more pressure levels. So it’s okay to find ACTUAL max (possibly beyond book max) WITH THE BULLET JAMMED. Because when we later experiment with final overall length, we may end up with the bullet seated out of the riflings, or the bullet jumping from the case into the riflings. “Jump” does not give a pressure spike like being jammed. So we can go from JAMMED (A pressure spike situation) TO JUMP because our chamber pressure will DROP.
</span>
<span style="text-decoration: underline">But if a person were to experiment with max ++ loads with the bullet NOT engaging the riflings, they would ERRONEOUSLY think they found this particular rifles safe max load. And then if they decided to jam it in search for a better shooting load, with thet the associated pressure spike from being JAMMED- and that MAX or MAX PLUS load- he’ll likely lose his eyeballs, some fingers, his hearing a good portion of his face and potentially his life. Got it?
</span>
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">START JAMMED- Work *towards* JUMP! DO NOT GO THE OTHER WAY</span></span></span> with near max, max or max plus loads!
Got it!? No? do not proceed! So onto the fun stuff.
I’m gonna walk you through perfoming a ladder test. The ladder test is in my & many precision shooters opinion –the- only way to work up a long range load. It typically saves times, componants and barrel life. How’s that? Because we are only going to shoot -1- round at a given powder charge! Each single round is a rung of the ladder. Sounds like a farce? Keep reading, you’ll get it. There’s only one hang up for the ladder test- it really need to be done at least a decent distance. If you have a place to shoot at least 300(+)yards do a ladder test. 300 minimum, 600 is great, 1000yd ultimate, but it's easy for the wind to blow your hits off paper which knocks the test in the head.
The first thing we need to do is decide on a -or preferably several powders to experiment with. This is done by talking to successful shooters familiar with your cartridge, reloading manuals, Sierra bulletsmiths (800-223-8799) etc.
So how do you do a ladder test? Glad you asked. Let's take say Reloader 15 powder for a hypothetical .308 load. My Sierra manual states 35.8 is a start load and 41.3 is max. I like round numbers. So we’re gonna call it 36g. START, 41g. MAX. Great.
Each single shot load experiment is going to be in 1% increments starting at minimum load and getting 1% hotter with each next round. So what is 1% of our max in this example? Let’s do the math.
41.0 x .01 = .41 So we are in this first coarse test jump .41 grains between each load. Again this first ladder is a coarse (but HIGHLY INFORMATIVE) test. So to save time let's bump it up to full half grain intervals, .5g.
Now make a list of the loads you would load to have a single round from start, to max plus in .5 grain jumps. Write them down.
1\ 36g
2\ 36.5g
3\ 37g
4\ 37.5g
5\ 38g
6\ 38.5g
7\ 39g
8\ 39.5g
9\ 40
10\ 40.5
11\ 41g. BOOK MAXIMUM
12\ 41.5 !MAX plus!
13\ 42g !MAX PLUS!
14\ 42.5 !Max Plus!
<span style="text-decoration: underline">*** write the load number, powder type, and grains on each case of loaded ammo with a sharpie marker. <span style="color: #FF0000">For max and max plus loads i color the neck of the case RED.Don’t skip this.</span></span>
So now you have a mere LESS THAN 14 rounds to shoot and you will obtain VOLUMES of info. <span style="font-weight: bold">MORE SAFTEY ADVICE:
For shots #10 and on proceed with caution, looking and documenting well any signs of excessive pressure. STOP shooting when you detect the least sign of pressure: cratered primer, shiny marks on case head, Extractor/ejector marks, sticky bolt lift etc.</span> WRITE DOWN the actual max load for this powder, this bullet,for this particular rifle in your loading manual and several other places.
Having max and max plus loads will let you know what the actual MAX load is for your particular rifle. My 300 win mag 1000yard rifle does not show pressure with some powders until I'm -three full grains- over book max. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">ANY loads deemed too hot to be safe to shoot should be pulled apart/unloaded right there at the range for safety</span>.</span>
So now pack up and head to the range. At the range we are going to need a large piece of paper. I keep a roll of brown paper painters paper on hand for all my range shooting. It’sa bout 36”wide and many feet (120'+ ?) come on a roll. Last time I bought some it was $9 @ my local Lowe’s / Home Depot)
We are going to shoot the start load first, and the MAX PLUS load last, all at the SAME AIMING POINT on the paper. So we are going to get a TALL vertical string. So no skimping on paper. From a good solid shooting position shoot each load at THE SAME AIMING POINT. And for once in your life in long range shooting you can ignore cross winds.
Now the creative part you going to mark each bullet hole by it's shot number- referenced by it's powder charge after it's shot because you will have overlapping holes. Shoot one mark one.
There are several ways of doing this whether it be shoot one and walk down and mark it, to really strong spotting scopes (always seems to screw up my ladder tests and I have to start over) DIY target cams, or coloring coding shots by coloring the bullet with a red, green & blue markers accordingly and shooting at white paper. The marker will transfer to the target paper. I'd still not shoot more than 3 before walking. Me?? No- I'd certainly not want it to ever be said I have a faithful & trusted shooting companion down range with a marker standing off to the side of the target board a safe distance and we "shoot one, mark one" as a expedient team.
So what's happening on paper? You will get a vertical string of hits. (don't worry if they shift left and right with the wind, that is irrelevant right now, trust me.) First thought is that it's increasing velocity that makes the hits climb up the target, and that is true to a point. What is also happening for the most part is the bullets are leaving the barrel in a different state of barrel flex, or vibration.
You need to understand this. When you fire your rifle, your barrel flexes in a sine wave pattern. What your getting in the ladder test is the bullet is exiting the muzzle shot to shot, with the barrel flexed more and more up.
BUT, ahah! We got some groups anyway! You will get a few shots that cluster, or actually make a decent group on your target, despite their each one having a(get this) differing powder charge!
ENTER THE "NODE." The node is the very top of the wave and very bottom. For ultimate accuracy, you want your bullet exiting the muzzle precisely when it has flexed all the way up, STOPPED [for a nano second] before it begins it journey flexing back down. This is why you had a decent group or two during the ladder test, despite differing powder charges.
So now your looking at the ladder test target. You got shots all over the place vertically, but some formed nice clusters, or groups.
Note each powder charge that grouped. Let's say for this test, bullet holes 2,3,4 formed a group, and 7,8,9 formed a group.
So this is awesome. In a mere 11 or so shots, we learned at what powder charges the bullets actually leaves the barrel when the muzzle is not moving(vibrating) around wildly.
So now we go home sip a beverage and study and DOCUMENT our findings.
We see 36.5, 37 & 37.5grains shoot in the node of the barrel.
We now take these and do a refined but smaller ladder test. (We do this for the other clustered shots too! Don't neglect to further ladder test any loads that formed a cluster/group.)
So now we are going to load rounds for another ladder test.
Let's jump in finer, .3grn increments now, we are refining things now. Let's go a little outside* this accuracy window (our shots that grouped), powder charge-wise though just for good measure;
1\36.3*
2\36.6
3\36.9
4\37.2
5\37.5
6\37.8*grains
So now we have a good lot of charges with overlap a little each way from the accuracy cluster of the first ladder test. We only loaded one of each charge again. Now go repeat the ladder test/target, and again in a mere 6 shots you will have volumes MORE information. [Don't forget to do this second ladder test for every accuracy cluster/group that showed up on the first test]For each ladder, it is optimal to back up -at least- another hundred yards from the last distance.
You will get another accuracy cluster, all the more dead-on the barrel's node. Let's say shots 2,3,6 again formed a group.
Now you go back and load 5 SHOT GROUPS for each of these:
5@ 36.6 grains
5@ 36.9 grns
5@ 37.2 g.
One of these will prove overall best. Now you got your powder charge! And it is the LEAST sensitive to shot to shot velocity variations due to being at the node.
Now go back with this same powder charge in every round but play with bullet seating depth.. Your at .010” jammed right now. Try a 5 shot group @ - .010 JUMP (not touching the riflings.) Keep trying groups as you move your OAL .010”. You’ll see the rifle perk up and shoot one of these lengths best. Now you got your load.
If you want to try to shave the last couple of thousandth’s off your groups average, play around again the powder charge- load a 5 shot group just slightly under –THE- load and just slightly over and see if things get even better still yet. It may or may not.
Then if you want to be super anal, and can get out to at least 600yds go run primer brand testing too! You might get even more uniform muzzle velocity
This is how 1000 yard bench rest loads are worked up & records broken. You may not choose to refine it to the n'th degree, but running at least 2, ever finer ladder tests as described here will get any rifle shooting nealry as good as it practically can.
I just ran ladder test 1(course) and test 2 (refined) with my .300 win mag (FACTORY savage tac) I'm to where I need to move to 5 shot groups. But, for my 3rd and most fine/narrow ladder test I moved back to 500 yards. I fired two identical rounds to warm my bore and verify my point of impact on the 500 yard target, using a load from the middle ladder test that was already showing a good powder charge. My buddy who was not down range, not helping me from no where near the target board called back on the radio and said "Damn, don't change a thing, sighter shots 1 & 2 are within 3/4" of each other!!
Okay fine! I’ll throw in a picture…
This picture below was the last ladder test I did with my .300 Win Mag Savage Tactical rifle. Each shot was .5 grains hotter (H4831SC powder) than the last.
It's really easy to see exactly where the node is on this target. Shot 1-9 are in the photo but #'s 10 & 11 strung on up the target out the top, not in photo.
Remember that no two of these bullets holes where fired with the same powder charge, but shooting in the node is where it's at- the "four shot group" shown here, #'s 6,7,8 & 9 formed a 3.130" group or .63 moa group @ 525 yards from a factory Savage, with all differing loads. (And obviously in the picture- this was all from wind. I was disregarding and shooting right through wind gusts. There's only .949" of vertical dispersion here or .19 MOA @ 525 laser'd yards.)
Going back and trying my 5 (identically loaded) shot groups should theoretically at least shrink this by half, most likely quitea bit more and identify my rifle's ultimate load with a 210 VLD bullet, and H4831SC powder. From what I have seen thus far with this rifle I'm looking for at least SUB(!) .35 moa 5 shot groups in the end. I'd sure take .2_ moa numbers.
[Note since originally writing this piece- using the processes in this series I have written, I have ended up with two loads (H4831SC & H1000) that are .25moa shooters @ 400 yds.]
Gentlemen and ladies, this is THE way to work up a load, and it won't even take a full box of bullets to do so.
In the next chapter we’ll talk about inspecting loaded ammo. Hope you enjoyed this instructional.
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This instructional took considerable time & effort. It is presented here for free. Enjoy! However if any one feels motivated to express appreciation a donation can be sent to the paypal account [email protected]. No big deal. Thanks! TresMon
I use this method as well for all my rifles including my F Class rifles. As mentioned in his post, I generally have a good idea at what fps will provide the best precision and lowest SD.
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