• Win a RIX Storm S3 Thermal Imaging Scope!

    To enter, all you need to do is add an image of yourself at the range below!

    Join the contest

New U.S. Powder Plant

#5
lash said:
Sluiced from Accurate Shooter:

Here in Arkansas.

www.thv11.com

White River Energetics expansion to add 100 new jobs in Arkansas

White River Energetics, an ammunition primer and energetics manufacturer, announced a $70 million expansion of its facility in Des Arc, adding 100 new jobs.
www.thv11.com www.thv11.com
Click to expand...
This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charmingmander and lash
#6
Baron23 said:
This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.
Click to expand...
There is only 1 nitro cellulose plant in the entire USA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charmingmander and Baron23
#7
Baron23 said:
This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.
Click to expand...
You are correct and I have no idea of the details of their venture. But like you said, it would seem to be a prerequisite to investing this amount in a new plant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Baron23
#9
_Windrider_ said:
There is only 1 nitro cellulose plant in the entire USA.
Click to expand...
It was my understanding that until 2 yrs ago, 90% of the powder being manufactured by the west utilized nitrocellulose supplied by China.

I was told there is at least 2 manufacturers in Europe and at least one in North America but all were 3x the price of the Chinese product.

With Taiwan and South China Sea being a point of contention, and Russia being pressured by Western sanctions, the Russians are committing to all of the nitrocellulose the Chinese can ship for their ammunition production.

Of course every bit of this could be bullshit too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Charmingmander, reelserious, Baron23 and 3 others
#10
Terry Cross said:
It was my understanding that until 2 yrs ago, 90% of the powder being manufactured by the west utilized nitrocellulose supplied by China.

I was told there is at least 2 manufacturers in Europe and at least one in North America but all were 3x the price of the Chinese product.

With Taiwan and South China Sea being a point of contention, and Russia being pressured by Western sanctions, the Russians are committing to all of the nitrocellulose the Chinese can ship for their ammunition production.

Of course every bit of this could be bullshit too.
Click to expand...
Even without any material choke points , there is shit loads of base material consumption with all the 155 and 152mm powder charges .
Note a single propellant charge for 155mm = powder for 5.000Rounds 5.56 and now imagine millions of these powder charges being used right now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Charmingmander, Terry Cross, lash and 2 others
#11
WRE is a subsidiary of D&M Holding Co., which focuses on turnkey
ammunition solutions. It is US based.

1725802822367.png


www.dmholding.com

Home - D&M Holding Company

D&M Holding: US-based global provider of turnkey ammunition, primer, & propellant manufacturing solutions. Offers projectile, case, & primer manufacturing cells and equipment. QC, training, 24/7 support.
www.dmholding.com www.dmholding.com
 
#12
lash said:
Oh? I didn’t know about that one. You have any info?
Click to expand...
They make the grind hard ammo brand. The primer factory will be in indiantown fl and i believe the ammo assembly plant is in stuart fl. Huge amount of red tape to get this all built but they are doing it. Land is being built on right now for primer building and explosives storage I have not seen the guy i know that works there in about 6 months but as soon as i do i can post an update. Yes they will be selling primers to reloaders
 
  • Like
Reactions: Schütze, gigamortis, M4orturnate and 1 other person
#14
reelserious said:
www.tcpalm.com

Take a peek at the new Grind Hard Ammo facility in Stuart

Owners Barry Skolnick and Austin Weiss give a tour of the new Grind Hard Ammo facility, Thursday, Feb. 23, 2023, in Stuart.
www.tcpalm.com
Click to expand...
Great pictures of the Grind Hard facility and a couple bits of good information, but the article’s composition sucks sweaty balls. In order to add word volume and make it look like an actual article, every picture is followed by a brief caption and a repeated paragraph of nonsense information.

“Copper shell casings”? Really?
“machine that puts the primer insertion into the casing”

It sounds like it was written by AI.

But thanks for the link and info nonetheless.

I have heard of Grind Hard ammo and our range has signs promoting it, I’ve just never tried it or seen it in person.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Schütze and Terry Cross
#16
On another slight, but related side track, why is nitrocellulose production so sparsely available? Is it simply due to regulations and government control?

Because it seems to me that it can’t be a complicated process issue.
 
#18
saddlerocker said:
Same as everything else.
"Not in my Backyard"
Needs subsidized possibly.
Therefore China/Russia are go-to suppliers.

Dirty. Needs cheap labor and Govt subsidies.
Click to expand...
The dirty and cheap labor problems can be solved easily with today’s technology.

That leaves us with chicken shit representatives and government control.
 
#20
Formerly St. Marks ,now Aerospace Defense aka General Dynamics , produces near every spherical powder under Hodgdons ,Winchester as well as others . Several powder distributors with various names source from them . General Dynamics also owns IMR Canadian smokeless powder extrusion plants . What's disturbing is our last BP plant at Camp Minden ,LA. about 30 miles from Shreveport blew up . NO new plant has acquired licensing for BP manufacturing to My knowledge .
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
#23
lash said:
On another slight, but related side track, why is nitrocellulose production so sparsely available? Is it simply due to regulations and government control?

Because it seems to me that it can’t be a complicated process issue.
Click to expand...
Price (which could be attributed to regulations). Cost of raw materials (Chinese or Indian cotton linters ~90% cellulose) and cost of production compared to profit margins makes it not worth producing in the US. Chinese and Indian cotton production costs are cheap (they each produce 2x the amount the US produces), so it's cheaper to import Chinese cotton. Cotton prices are low, so for the most part, it isn't worth growing compared to other crops.

Then you have the industrial chemical production side, where China is the leading producer and exporter of industrial chemicals.

When it starts becoming profitable to produce in the US is when you'll see more of it being done.

Old Sept 21, 1989 news article but, US nitrocellulose production has been under price pressure for a long time.

https://www.joc.com/article/nitroce...tition-hercules-names-6-foreign-firms-5544186
Hercules, the only remaining U.S. manufacturer of nitrocellulose, alleges that manufacturers in South Korea, Britain China, Yugoslavia, Brazil, Japan and West Germany are selling the chemical in the United States at 33 percent to 86 percent less than their own domestic market price and in many cases at below production cost.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
#26
Evintos said:
Price (which could be attributed to regulations). Cost of raw materials (Chinese or Indian cotton linters ~90% cellulose) and cost of production compared to profit margins makes it not worth producing in the US. Chinese and Indian cotton production costs are cheap (they each produce 2x the amount the US produces), so it's cheaper to import Chinese cotton. Cotton prices are low, so for the most part, it isn't worth growing compared to other crops.

Then you have the industrial chemical production side, where China is the leading producer and exporter of industrial chemicals.

When it starts becoming profitable to produce in the US is when you'll see more of it being done.

Old Sept 21, 1989 news article but, US nitrocellulose production has been under price pressure for a long time.

https://www.joc.com/article/nitroce...tition-hercules-names-6-foreign-firms-5544186
Click to expand...
Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.
 
#27
lash said:
Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily under current political administration . They weren't in the least bit concerned leaving behind $130 Billion tax payer $'s of Military hardware for the Enemy to acquire . Slow Joe has sucked a lot of whatever and banked a shit load of cash via China and other Countries and just remember WHO is calling the shots behind the scenes . (n)
 
  • Like
Reactions: jinxx4ever, gigamortis and mewillis
#29
lash said:
Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.
Click to expand...
Nitrocellulose is used for more than just gunpowder, so when companies over produce in a low demand climate, it's better to offload product, even for a loss and take the NOL carry forward tax write off. Current demand is high and global demand is increasing, but the damage to the US industry has already been done.

There's nothing in the proposed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2025 or 2023-2024 that specifically addresses nitrocellulose supply, even though it makes investments in the ammunition plants themselves. Nothing in terms of raw material supply investments for those ammunition plants. There's no relaxing of regulations and restrictions regarding nitrocellulose production either (not under the current administration).

The "best" current move to "address" this so far is - H.R.8066 Ammunition Supply Chain Act or S.4163, latest action on either of those was 4/18/2024, referred to the Committee of Armed Services, and the bill does nothing except require a report on the status of US nitrocellulose supply.

From a raw material supply perspective, farm subsidies haven't increased to make it palatable for US farmers to switch to growing cotton.

IF the US gets serious and realizes it, this issue could've been addressed in the beginning or middle stages of the GWOT. Yet here the nation sits, having to play catch up, and so far, it doesn't even look like it's a priority for Washington DC 🤷‍♂️.

The only way this gets done is apparently increased domestic consumer demand (capitalism) rather than national security.
 
#30
Evintos said:
The only way this gets done is apparently increased domestic consumer demand (capitalism) rather than national security.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. This points out exactly what needs to be done, which is all I’m saying. Nothing is insurmountable materially or logistically. The political environment is the biggest obstacle.
 
#31
The U S does have the ability to produce C8(NO2)8) , aka OCTANITROCUBANE . We also do produce Solid as well as liquid Rocket fuel in a number of facilities . Of which a few could be converted readily in an emergency . The supply chain was bolstered in 2023 .
 
  • Like
Reactions: MO Fugga
#32
PotbellyVandal said:
I've seen the White River Energetics primers for sale but haven't tried them. Anyone have experience with them yet?
Click to expand...
Franko said:
More supply is always good news. Would anyone happen to have experience with their primers?
Click to expand...


I've debated picking some up, but have read a lot of reviews about them being just oversize enough that they're pretty hard to seat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PotbellyVandal and Franko
#37
Taylorbok said:
LRM's are still very scarce
Click to expand...

They are beginning to show up here and there but are snatched quickly .

I'll confess I'm not the best source of what's available currently . I'm still working from 2007 stock and have another stock pile from 2014-15 back up purchase . At one time I was able to purchase most anything by the pallet directly from manufacturers and did so on several occasions . Provided one has the legal means of proper storage . Ditto with powders ,in addition to buying LGS inventory that bailed out .
MY Federal Match primers ran Me back then $45.25 per 5K carton packed #4 to a case or 20K . Back when a full pallet manufacturer paid shipping and Hazmat . So I'm good for life and no longer source much ,with exception to certain bullets and brass on occasion .

Late last year I walked into one of our local hardware outfits and they had received a fresh shipment . Due to some confusion in they're computer pricing setup ,they were unable to sell Me a brick of 1K but did sell Me several multiples of #10 boxes at they're cost .
I bought Half of what they had brought in . The counter guy thought I was dimwitted for purchasing SPP LPP LRP SRP all by the boxes and paying what they perceived as retail . I had the last laugh ,as I went back #4 days later and snatched up some inexpensive powder I saw on they're shelves . They had ( $32.50 - 36.75 a lb. ) . When I checked out I noticed those Primers had gone from $4.79 to $11.25 :)

Powder was H4350 and StaBall 6.5 . That powder is Now $56-65.00 per lb. and they Don't have any of either .
 

Attachments

  • Fed Gold Match SR primers.jpg
    Fed Gold Match SR primers.jpg
    55.5 KB · Views: 34
  • Like
Reactions: lash and camocorvette
#38
saddlerocker said:
Same as everything else.
"Not in my Backyard"
Needs subsidized possibly.
Therefore China/Russia are go-to suppliers.

Dirty. Needs cheap labor and Govt subsidies.
Click to expand...
Hercules had a plant in NJ that was definitely in my back yard. Lived in the area for almost 30 years. In 1940 they had an explosion that was felt as far away as Poughkeepsie NY. The one that happened in 1989 was luckily early in the morning. I was just waking up when I noticed the window shade made a sudden movement inwards...that was from the concussion of the blast. Heard the sirens and then details about the explosion shortly afterwards. One hair salon very close to the explosion had the front window shatter which cut the head off of a plaster statue. Thank God it wasnt an hour or two later, there would have defintely been fatalities.

Yeah, not in my backyard...FTS

Hercules Factory Explosion, Kenvil, New Jersey 1940

Explosion at the Hercules Explosives Factory of Kenvil, New Jersey on September 12, 1940
www.roxburynewjersey.com
 
#39
So i finally got around to going to the new primer factory by grind hard ammo in Indiantown FL. Good news its the real deal for sure. Probably the first new primer factory in 50 years in america. 14 inch thick solid concrete walls and its far away from any other buildings or people. The closest thing to it is a solar farm about 2 miles away i will try to post my cell phone pics
 

Attachments

  • IMG_9936.jpeg
    IMG_9936.jpeg
    639 KB · Views: 111
  • IMG_9941.jpeg
    IMG_9941.jpeg
    320.7 KB · Views: 118
  • IMG_9939.jpeg
    IMG_9939.jpeg
    367.9 KB · Views: 103
  • IMG_9938.jpeg
    IMG_9938.jpeg
    347.5 KB · Views: 104
  • IMG_9937.jpeg
    IMG_9937.jpeg
    434.5 KB · Views: 110
  • IMG_9944.jpeg
    IMG_9944.jpeg
    775.2 KB · Views: 112
  • IMG_9932.jpeg
    IMG_9932.jpeg
    677.1 KB · Views: 110
  • Like
Reactions: Sniperwannabee, MarinePMI, gigamortis and 5 others
#41
reelserious said:
I stopped by there again today. Progress is being made looks kinda slow but its still the first new primer factory in like 50 years so i’ll take it
Click to expand...
Are they still working on building and installations? I wonder about their funding depth. That and meeting all the regulatory requirements to do business as a primer manufacturer.

Understand that this is only from a distant view with me not knowing any details.
 
#42
I only trespassed a little today as i was in a hurry :D But to answer your question it looked like there was several different contractors there working. I cant even imagine all the permits and “inspections” they are going through. The separate ammo factory they own has been up and running for over a year at a Different location and all is good with that. I feel confident that it will be done this summer. I dont think there are any money problems with the guys begind the project
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
#45
Mr.BR said:
Normaly with exploding shit you want your roof to be thin sheet so when it blows it all goes up
Click to expand...
Skylights with explosion domes relieves pressure inside a containment room . When you begin seeing copious amounts of wood being placed inside ,then we'll know it won't be long before it's operational .

Many decades ago when I was a General contractor , My company contracted industrial as well as chemical tilt-up work .

All switching as well as motors lights are wired and housed in non sparking containment boxes .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Earnhardt and lash
#48
Ex E6 said:
....

All switching as well as motors lights are wired and housed in non sparking containment boxes .
Click to expand...
Probably explosion proof boxes. Things inside can spark and they are designed as a spark arrestor. If an ignition happens, the hot gases will cool through the flanges of the box.

The thing that you have to be careful of with gunpowder is surface temp. It is a solid/dust. If it starts to accumulate on a hot motor, etc, it can combust.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
#49
MarshallDodge said:
Probably explosion proof boxes. Things inside can spark and they are designed as a spark arrestor. If an ignition happens, the hot gases will cool through the flanges of the box.

The thing that you have to be careful of with gunpowder is surface temp. It is a solid/dust. If it starts to accumulate on a hot motor, etc, it can combust.
Click to expand...

NO : Static electrical discharge is the death warrant . Exactly why WOOD lining is required for powder primer production areas and anti static mats through out any production areas . Explosion domes I.E. blow-able skylights , allow for concussion relief by venting blast upward rather than wall shear force . What happens when one packs powder tightly into confinement ? . Should detonation occur it goes BOOM ,rather than having a barrel for skylight venting as in Bang . Another reason many tiltup buildings roof construction is panel sectioned .

Fyi : Early in My career I batched powder for Hercules , both Industrial and commercial side .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Earnhardt and lash
#50
I have seen pictures of primer plants where the workers are standing in like 6 inches of water while putting the mixture in the cups. It will be interesting to see how the final setup will be done. I wonder how automated it will be. Static electricity is a problem for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ex E6
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

lash
China Restricts Export of Nitrocellulose and Antimony
Replies
74
Views
3K
Edsel
Edsel
Edsel
GET YOUR NUCLEAR STIFFY RIGHT HERE!
Replies
28
Views
2K
Edsel
Edsel
PatMiles
Wisconsin Teacher Who Made Out with Fifth-Grader Faces Life in Prison
Replies
69
Views
3K
lonegunman762x51
lonegunman762x51
R
Replica of an 'improvised M14A1' sniper rifle as used by the US Army LLRP, circa 1967
Replies
6
Views
794
Gary/CO
Gary/CO
R
Ukrainian sniper who claims new world record. He’s 58 years old. (WSJ article)
Replies
50
Views
5K
Edsel
Edsel
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts