New U.S. Powder Plant

[lash]

Sluiced from Accurate Shooter:

Here in Arkansas.

White River Energetics expansion to add 100 new jobs in Arkansas

White River Energetics, an ammunition primer and energetics manufacturer, announced a $70 million expansion of its facility in Des Arc, adding 100 new jobs.

www.thv11.com

 

[reelserious]

Saw that on the news also. BTW a primer and ammo company in south FL is about ready to come on line also

 

[kthomas]

Awesome.

I actually have some of their primers that I've been meaning to try out.

 

[lash]

Saw that on the news also. BTW a primer and ammo company in south FL is about ready to come on line also

Oh? I didn’t know about that one. You have any info?

 

[Baron23]

Sluiced from Accurate Shooter:

Here in Arkansas.

White River Energetics expansion to add 100 new jobs in Arkansas

White River Energetics, an ammunition primer and energetics manufacturer, announced a $70 million expansion of its facility in Des Arc, adding 100 new jobs.

www.thv11.com

This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.

 

[_Windrider_]

This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.

There is only 1 nitro cellulose plant in the entire USA.

 

[lash]

This is very cool but single base powders are made from nitrocellulose (gun cotton) and my understanding is that shortage of this material is one of the choke points for smokeless powder manf. Hopefully these guys have supplier agreements in place…which would be a prerequisite to this kind of investment to my mind.

You are correct and I have no idea of the details of their venture. But like you said, it would seem to be a prerequisite to investing this amount in a new plant.

 

[Franko]

More supply is always good news. Would anyone happen to have experience with their primers?

 

[Terry Cross]

There is only 1 nitro cellulose plant in the entire USA.

It was my understanding that until 2 yrs ago, 90% of the powder being manufactured by the west utilized nitrocellulose supplied by China.

I was told there is at least 2 manufacturers in Europe and at least one in North America but all were 3x the price of the Chinese product.

With Taiwan and South China Sea being a point of contention, and Russia being pressured by Western sanctions, the Russians are committing to all of the nitrocellulose the Chinese can ship for their ammunition production.

Of course every bit of this could be bullshit too.

 

[Mr.BR]

It was my understanding that until 2 yrs ago, 90% of the powder being manufactured by the west utilized nitrocellulose supplied by China.

I was told there is at least 2 manufacturers in Europe and at least one in North America but all were 3x the price of the Chinese product.

With Taiwan and South China Sea being a point of contention, and Russia being pressured by Western sanctions, the Russians are committing to all of the nitrocellulose the Chinese can ship for their ammunition production.

Of course every bit of this could be bullshit too.

Even without any material choke points , there is shit loads of base material consumption with all the 155 and 152mm powder charges .
Note a single propellant charge for 155mm = powder for 5.000Rounds 5.56 and now imagine millions of these powder charges being used right now.

 

[lash]

WRE is a subsidiary of D&M Holding Co., which focuses on turnkey
ammunition solutions. It is US based.

Home - D&M Holding Company

D&M Holding: US-based global provider of turnkey ammunition, primer, & propellant manufacturing solutions. Offers projectile, case, & primer manufacturing cells and equipment. QC, training, 24/7 support.

www.dmholding.com

 

[reelserious]

Oh? I didn’t know about that one. You have any info?

They make the grind hard ammo brand. The primer factory will be in indiantown fl and i believe the ammo assembly plant is in stuart fl. Huge amount of red tape to get this all built but they are doing it. Land is being built on right now for primer building and explosives storage I have not seen the guy i know that works there in about 6 months but as soon as i do i can post an update. Yes they will be selling primers to reloaders

 

[reelserious]

https://www.tcpalm.com/picture-gallery/news/local/martin-county/2023/02/28/take-peek-new-grind-hard-ammo-facility-stuart/11338117002/

 

[lash]

https://www.tcpalm.com/picture-gallery/news/local/martin-county/2023/02/28/take-peek-new-grind-hard-ammo-facility-stuart/11338117002/

Great pictures of the Grind Hard facility and a couple bits of good information, but the article’s composition sucks sweaty balls. In order to add word volume and make it look like an actual article, every picture is followed by a brief caption and a repeated paragraph of nonsense information.

“Copper shell casings”? Really?
“machine that puts the primer insertion into the casing”

It sounds like it was written by AI.

But thanks for the link and info nonetheless.

I have heard of Grind Hard ammo and our range has signs promoting it, I’ve just never tried it or seen it in person.

 

[reelserious]

Yup its local to me so its the real deal. The guy i know that works there is a straight shooter and finally america will have another primer manufacturer i trust his updates

 

[lash]

On another slight, but related side track, why is nitrocellulose production so sparsely available? Is it simply due to regulations and government control?

Because it seems to me that it can’t be a complicated process issue.

 

[saddlerocker]

Same as everything else.
"Not in my Backyard"
Needs subsidized possibly.
Therefore China/Russia are go-to suppliers.

Dirty. Needs cheap labor and Govt subsidies.

 

[lash]

Same as everything else.
"Not in my Backyard"
Needs subsidized possibly.
Therefore China/Russia are go-to suppliers.

Dirty. Needs cheap labor and Govt subsidies.

The dirty and cheap labor problems can be solved easily with today’s technology.

That leaves us with chicken shit representatives and government control.

 

[lash]

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that each and every ammunition or powder/primer plant is somehow subsidized and thereby at least contractually beholden to the government. Frankly, no matter what the country.

 

[Ex E6]

Formerly St. Marks ,now Aerospace Defense aka General Dynamics , produces near every spherical powder under Hodgdons ,Winchester as well as others . Several powder distributors with various names source from them . General Dynamics also owns IMR Canadian smokeless powder extrusion plants . What's disturbing is our last BP plant at Camp Minden ,LA. about 30 miles from Shreveport blew up . NO new plant has acquired licensing for BP manufacturing to My knowledge .

 

[reelserious]

Isn't palmetto state armory building an ammo factory also?

 

[PotbellyVandal]

I've seen the White River Energetics primers for sale but haven't tried them. Anyone have experience with them yet?

 

[Evintos]

On another slight, but related side track, why is nitrocellulose production so sparsely available? Is it simply due to regulations and government control?

Because it seems to me that it can’t be a complicated process issue.

Price (which could be attributed to regulations). Cost of raw materials (Chinese or Indian cotton linters ~90% cellulose) and cost of production compared to profit margins makes it not worth producing in the US. Chinese and Indian cotton production costs are cheap (they each produce 2x the amount the US produces), so it's cheaper to import Chinese cotton. Cotton prices are low, so for the most part, it isn't worth growing compared to other crops.

Then you have the industrial chemical production side, where China is the leading producer and exporter of industrial chemicals.

When it starts becoming profitable to produce in the US is when you'll see more of it being done.

Old Sept 21, 1989 news article but, US nitrocellulose production has been under price pressure for a long time.

https://www.joc.com/article/nitroce...tition-hercules-names-6-foreign-firms-5544186

Hercules, the only remaining U.S. manufacturer of nitrocellulose, alleges that manufacturers in South Korea, Britain China, Yugoslavia, Brazil, Japan and West Germany are selling the chemical in the United States at 33 percent to 86 percent less than their own domestic market price and in many cases at below production cost.

 

[oldrifleman]

Or when the production of Nitrocellulose becomes a national security concern and the Government puts money into the plant setup.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Isn't palmetto state armory building an ammo factory also?

Palmetto has an ammo plant, and I think they are working on primers.

 

[lash]

Price (which could be attributed to regulations). Cost of raw materials (Chinese or Indian cotton linters ~90% cellulose) and cost of production compared to profit margins makes it not worth producing in the US. Chinese and Indian cotton production costs are cheap (they each produce 2x the amount the US produces), so it's cheaper to import Chinese cotton. Cotton prices are low, so for the most part, it isn't worth growing compared to other crops.

Then you have the industrial chemical production side, where China is the leading producer and exporter of industrial chemicals.

When it starts becoming profitable to produce in the US is when you'll see more of it being done.

Old Sept 21, 1989 news article but, US nitrocellulose production has been under price pressure for a long time.

https://www.joc.com/article/nitroce...tition-hercules-names-6-foreign-firms-5544186

Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.

 

[Ex E6]

Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.

Not necessarily under current political administration . They weren't in the least bit concerned leaving behind $130 Billion tax payer $'s of Military hardware for the Enemy to acquire . Slow Joe has sucked a lot of whatever and banked a shit load of cash via China and other Countries and just remember WHO is calling the shots behind the scenes .

 

[Shiftyk5]

Or when the production of Nitrocellulose becomes a national security concern and the Government puts money into the plant setup.

That’s where they are at with TNT production. I’ve heard rumors of plans to build a TNT plant in the USA with some gov funding.

 

[Evintos]

Okay, let’s address those concerns. As your linked article clearly states, these foreign cotton suppliers are dumping product on the U.S. market. Often at reduced cost or even less than the cost of production. Why would they do that?

If our domestic regulations and restrictions are an additional factor that makes production costs much higher, that can and should be addressed.

As @oldrifleman so succinctly put it, once/if the U.S. gets serious and realizes that it is a strategic national security issue. All those issues will be resolved.

Nitrocellulose is used for more than just gunpowder, so when companies over produce in a low demand climate, it's better to offload product, even for a loss and take the NOL carry forward tax write off. Current demand is high and global demand is increasing, but the damage to the US industry has already been done.

There's nothing in the proposed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2025 or 2023-2024 that specifically addresses nitrocellulose supply, even though it makes investments in the ammunition plants themselves. Nothing in terms of raw material supply investments for those ammunition plants. There's no relaxing of regulations and restrictions regarding nitrocellulose production either (not under the current administration).

The "best" current move to "address" this so far is - H.R.8066 Ammunition Supply Chain Act or S.4163, latest action on either of those was 4/18/2024, referred to the Committee of Armed Services, and the bill does nothing except require a report on the status of US nitrocellulose supply.

From a raw material supply perspective, farm subsidies haven't increased to make it palatable for US farmers to switch to growing cotton.

IF the US gets serious and realizes it, this issue could've been addressed in the beginning or middle stages of the GWOT. Yet here the nation sits, having to play catch up, and so far, it doesn't even look like it's a priority for Washington DC .

The only way this gets done is apparently increased domestic consumer demand (capitalism) rather than national security.

 

[lash]

The only way this gets done is apparently increased domestic consumer demand (capitalism) rather than national security.

Thanks for the info. This points out exactly what needs to be done, which is all I’m saying. Nothing is insurmountable materially or logistically. The political environment is the biggest obstacle.

 

[Ex E6]

The U S does have the ability to produce C8(NO2)8) , aka OCTANITROCUBANE . We also do produce Solid as well as liquid Rocket fuel in a number of facilities . Of which a few could be converted readily in an emergency . The supply chain was bolstered in 2023 .

 

[nocoolname]

I've seen the White River Energetics primers for sale but haven't tried them. Anyone have experience with them yet?

More supply is always good news. Would anyone happen to have experience with their primers?

I've debated picking some up, but have read a lot of reviews about them being just oversize enough that they're pretty hard to seat.

 

[Ex E6]

I've debated picking some up, but have read a lot of reviews about them being just oversize enough that they're pretty hard to seat.

Primers are readily available at nearly every distributor . I believe Powder Valley , MidSouth , Brunos all have them on sale and more than one brand .

 

[Taylorbok]

Primers are readily available at nearly every distributor . I believe Powder Valley , MidSouth , Brunos all have them on sale and more than one brand .

LRM's are still very scarce

 

[lash]

LRM's are still very scarce

Yes, they are. Though Remington seems to be in stock often enough.

Remington Large Rifle Magnum Primers #9-1/2 Box of 1000

Limit 1 per customer, per order, per day

www.powdervalley.com

 

[Taylorbok]

Yes, they are. Though Remington seems to be in stock often enough.

Remington Large Rifle Magnum Primers #9-1/2 Box of 1000

Limit 1 per customer, per order, per day

www.powdervalley.com

I’ve been able to find cci’s here and there

 

[Ex E6]

LRM's are still very scarce

They are beginning to show up here and there but are snatched quickly .

I'll confess I'm not the best source of what's available currently . I'm still working from 2007 stock and have another stock pile from 2014-15 back up purchase . At one time I was able to purchase most anything by the pallet directly from manufacturers and did so on several occasions . Provided one has the legal means of proper storage . Ditto with powders ,in addition to buying LGS inventory that bailed out .
MY Federal Match primers ran Me back then $45.25 per 5K carton packed #4 to a case or 20K . Back when a full pallet manufacturer paid shipping and Hazmat . So I'm good for life and no longer source much ,with exception to certain bullets and brass on occasion .

Late last year I walked into one of our local hardware outfits and they had received a fresh shipment . Due to some confusion in they're computer pricing setup ,they were unable to sell Me a brick of 1K but did sell Me several multiples of #10 boxes at they're cost .
I bought Half of what they had brought in . The counter guy thought I was dimwitted for purchasing SPP LPP LRP SRP all by the boxes and paying what they perceived as retail . I had the last laugh ,as I went back #4 days later and snatched up some inexpensive powder I saw on they're shelves . They had ( $32.50 - 36.75 a lb. ) . When I checked out I noticed those Primers had gone from $4.79 to $11.25

Powder was H4350 and StaBall 6.5 . That powder is Now $56-65.00 per lb. and they Don't have any of either .

 

[johnnyvw]

Same as everything else.
"Not in my Backyard"
Needs subsidized possibly.
Therefore China/Russia are go-to suppliers.

Dirty. Needs cheap labor and Govt subsidies.

Hercules had a plant in NJ that was definitely in my back yard. Lived in the area for almost 30 years. In 1940 they had an explosion that was felt as far away as Poughkeepsie NY. The one that happened in 1989 was luckily early in the morning. I was just waking up when I noticed the window shade made a sudden movement inwards...that was from the concussion of the blast. Heard the sirens and then details about the explosion shortly afterwards. One hair salon very close to the explosion had the front window shatter which cut the head off of a plaster statue. Thank God it wasnt an hour or two later, there would have defintely been fatalities.

Yeah, not in my backyard...FTS

http://www.roxburynewjersey.com/hercules.htm