If you do, I'd like to see the results. This powder runs way slower in my Creedmoor than others are reporting, so who knows. Then again, there are a lot of people on other forums pointing out the same thing.
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New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
I just bought 2lbs to try out. Interestingly that they named it "6.5" Staball and then have it perform significantly differently that the other mainstay 6.5mm powder offerings like H4350, RL-16, IMR4451, etc.
What is your case fill? From what I understand it likes between 95-100% for best performance.
Just ran my first loads of Saball.
6.5 140gr Hornady BTHP
Hornady match once fired.
Win LRP.
42.5 to 44.0 gr in .3 increments. 5 each for a total of 6 charge weights.
LTO matched Hornady American Gunner Ammo
Hornady dies.
ARC Nucleus 6.5 CM, 25inch Criterion barrel.
Temp 55, DA 109.
Side experiment:
I loaded up an extra 5 at 42.5, 5 to foul and compare the readings between a Pro chrono and magneto speed. I got about a 3" vertical shift with the magneto attached from point of aim.
Ave velocity, 2625 with the Magneto speed, 2634 w/ ProChrono. SD was different by 2, ES 1fps.
Velocity was very linear.
No pressure signs at 44.0 gr.
All SDs below 19 ( 5 shots is not a good sample)
Best groups load #2 <.6moa w 42.8gr @2652 avg, SD 16.5
And my happy spot, load #5 43.7gr @ 2729 avg SD 3.3 .52 moa.
1st impressions are very positive and hope for it to continue.
6.5 140gr Hornady BTHP
Hornady match once fired.
Win LRP.
42.5 to 44.0 gr in .3 increments. 5 each for a total of 6 charge weights.
LTO matched Hornady American Gunner Ammo
Hornady dies.
ARC Nucleus 6.5 CM, 25inch Criterion barrel.
Temp 55, DA 109.
Side experiment:
I loaded up an extra 5 at 42.5, 5 to foul and compare the readings between a Pro chrono and magneto speed. I got about a 3" vertical shift with the magneto attached from point of aim.
Ave velocity, 2625 with the Magneto speed, 2634 w/ ProChrono. SD was different by 2, ES 1fps.
Velocity was very linear.
No pressure signs at 44.0 gr.
All SDs below 19 ( 5 shots is not a good sample)
Best groups load #2 <.6moa w 42.8gr @2652 avg, SD 16.5
And my happy spot, load #5 43.7gr @ 2729 avg SD 3.3 .52 moa.
1st impressions are very positive and hope for it to continue.
I am working with almost the same load for a 6.5 criterion barreled gasser. What is you coal? I know the hollow point tips aren’t super consistent but just an average would be really helpful info. Thanks John.
I'll get you an OAL tomorrow.
I loaded them to the same length to ogive as Hornady 140gr American Gunner which is the same bthp. The AG shot great and ran 2720 average fps. Staball got me about 10more fps and lower SD than factory. I have not measured the length from the lands yet, but I should get that tomorrow as well.
FWIW I measure powder on a Redding balance scale.
Those velocities seem quite slow, my T3 CTR does 2684fps with H4350 and 147 ELD-Ms.
Also appears to be less powder than most other folks, are you seating the pills quite deep?
I have some Staball powder I hope to develop a load with.
Can't argue with the groups and SDs though.
Quick observation ... using StaBall for a bunch of 6.5 load development on two barrels and 3 bullet weights over the last few months. Getting good, consistent, predictable results ... very happy with this powder thus far. Settled on a solid load for both rifles and have wrapped up my ladder, velocity, and accuracy testing. I have about 25 lbs of it and plan on using it, and saving my 4350 powder for other things. Side note: Saw the "dirtier than most" observations, but I haven't experienced that personally ... seems no different than my other powders I use regularly. YMMV
COAL of Honady AG is 2.800 to 2.808 (10rd sample).
My length to ogive is 2.210 using the #5-26 (.253 dia) insert. It seems some people are using the next size up so I think its pertinate to specify.
Distance to the lands on my rifle is 2.260 LTO so I am jumping .05".
The 140gr AG factory ammo did very well in my rifle so I decided to use that as a starting point for seating depth. I'm undecided as to if I will play with the seating depth or not. I have a TMB (Tuner/Muzzle Break) coming next month to try.
@beetroot As for the velocity being slow, maybe. I think the book max is probably conservative, most, but not all published Staball data I've seen maxes out around 44.0gr with the 140's, and is not much more than 2800, with most more towards the mid or even low 2700's. 44.0 got me 2755 ave. The vertical was good but I had more horizontal stringing. It could have been me.
Being my first loads with this powder and a new rifle I wasn't quite ready to hot rod it over book max. Temps here yesterday were only 52-60 degrees during the hour I did testing. In August when it's in the 90's will give me some real insight to how stabil this powder really is.
I've only put 100 rounds through it prior to this OCW. Maybe the barrel will speed up a bit.
Like I said, first impressions, I like it, time will tell.
PS, I'd love to try H4350 but its unobtainium for me so far.
Filled a case to the mouth with powder, 43.7gr. gets me 81-82% of total case fill, it comes to the base of the shoulder. The bullet is in the case .440" with .05 jump to the lands.
If anyone here is in FL and doesn't like their StaBall let me know I'll buy it I'm going on 6 months of striking out on orders b/f I can get it checked out of cart....down to about 6 lbs.
Thought I would pass along my first run using Staball and the 130 Berger Hybrid OTM. This is a ladder test I did over the weekend and it was very promising. The velocity was more than I expected and no pressure signs at all. Rifle is a Fix by Q. Barrel is 16" Proof Carbon. I was really surprised by the upper end velocity with the 16" barrel.
Looks like I have a node in the 44.3 to 44.9 range. Can't wait to get back out with some new loaded ammo.
On a side note. I saw no difference in dirtiness with this powder vs any other powder I've used.
Looks like I have a node in the 44.3 to 44.9 range. Can't wait to get back out with some new loaded ammo.
On a side note. I saw no difference in dirtiness with this powder vs any other powder I've used.
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Looking forward to seeing what I end up with once this 26" Proof stainless is broken in only have 38 rounds through it, but looks like I'm going to be no less than 2800 with 140g at 43.8 given the brief accuracy results I've seen simply loading at mag length. Remember StaBall sucks DO NOT BUY THIS CRAP leave it on the shelves it's a pure marketing gimmick don't fall for it!
A couple of nice velocity nodes to investigate ...
- Tikka T3x TAC A1 in 6.5-Creedmoor
- Peterson 1x fired brass (Annealed, FL-sized, Mandrel)
- Hornady 147gr ELDM
- StaBall
I'm going to load 10 at 41.9 and see how they group. Very happy thus far with StaBall in all three of my 6.5-CM rifles.
- Tikka T3x TAC A1 in 6.5-Creedmoor
- Peterson 1x fired brass (Annealed, FL-sized, Mandrel)
- Hornady 147gr ELDM
- StaBall
I'm going to load 10 at 41.9 and see how they group. Very happy thus far with StaBall in all three of my 6.5-CM rifles.
Interestingly, after having a little bit of pressure with a higher load in semis and 142 SMKs in Peterson brass, I have settled on 42.2 grains at 2.81 as a pretty universal load for creedmoors. Certainly good enough to run on a 550 and use for all practice uses.
That's in the same ballpark as my velocity node ... I like StaBall ... especially since I have a bunch of it.
Thought I would pass along my first run using Staball and the 130 Berger Hybrid OTM. This is a ladder test I did over the weekend and it was very promising. The velocity was more than I expected and no pressure signs at all. Rifle is a Fix by Q. Barrel is 16" Proof Carbon. I was really surprised by the upper end velocity with the 16" barrel.
Looks like I have a node in the 44.3 to 44.9 range. Can't wait to get back out with some new loaded ammo.
On a side note. I saw no difference in dirtiness with this powder vs any other powder I've used.
I found nodes at 44 and 45.2gr that I’m loading in my rifles and has given me pretty good accuracy so far. In my brothers AR-10 I’m getting 2800 average with the 130 OTM in a 20” barrel.
Does anyone have temperature stability data? Has it held up as advertised? Being as temp stable as H-4350 is going to be tricky.
For me, for the most part it stays "relatively stable" between ~75degF and ~90degF, IIRC I think it works out to ~50fps faster at 90degF so I guess I'm seeing ~2fps +/- per degree.
That said, I did experience some weird shit with it a few weeks back one morning, when the temps were randomly and unseasonably in the mid-50's-60degF.
It was a low-key club match. I had shot a bunch, 3 different days earlier that week between in the mid-70'sF to near 90F, and my dope was solid and dead on out to 1250 yards. Strelok says, I do, plate goes clank. But for most of the match, my dope was all kinds of fucked up, I was dialing up and adding clicks because I was seeing my splash hit the dirt like 25 yards short at 1000 yards when the day earlier it was center of a 2moa plate at 1000 yards every single time. Later in the match, and after, it just seemed to fix itself, the temps were back up to ~70degF and suddenly everything was peachy again.
I've been trying to wake up early and get to the range for ~0730 so I can get some data at cooler temps, but honestly TN doesn't really get cool right now so that mission is incomplete... FWIW, I've been meaning to get better at grabbing chrono data when I'm at the range and it's 10 degrees +/- from what I've already got. I've found in the past that if one can feed Strelok 4 different speeds, each at least 10 degrees apart, Strelok seems to track it's temp sensitivity pretty well.
That said, I did experience some weird shit with it a few weeks back one morning, when the temps were randomly and unseasonably in the mid-50's-60degF.
It was a low-key club match. I had shot a bunch, 3 different days earlier that week between in the mid-70'sF to near 90F, and my dope was solid and dead on out to 1250 yards. Strelok says, I do, plate goes clank. But for most of the match, my dope was all kinds of fucked up, I was dialing up and adding clicks because I was seeing my splash hit the dirt like 25 yards short at 1000 yards when the day earlier it was center of a 2moa plate at 1000 yards every single time. Later in the match, and after, it just seemed to fix itself, the temps were back up to ~70degF and suddenly everything was peachy again.
I've been trying to wake up early and get to the range for ~0730 so I can get some data at cooler temps, but honestly TN doesn't really get cool right now so that mission is incomplete... FWIW, I've been meaning to get better at grabbing chrono data when I'm at the range and it's 10 degrees +/- from what I've already got. I've found in the past that if one can feed Strelok 4 different speeds, each at least 10 degrees apart, Strelok seems to track it's temp sensitivity pretty well.
Stick the rounds m the freezer and take em to the range in an ice chest for cold data.
Never tried that... is it legit..?
How do you determine what temperature you're testing (how do you measure the temp of the ammo)?
Stick a thermometer in along with them? It wont be perfect but it will be good enough to be within 10° or so if you want to get techni science. I used a little infrared one used in ac work. But really you just need to know when its shiver cold, when its comfy and when its boiling hot from a practical standpoint. You can interpolate well enough inside of that.
I havent made charts etc in a long time I just keep notes in geoballistics of the chrono speed on a cold or hot day for a quick reference back to if conditions were to change in a match with a front or something.
If you freeze the rounds overnight you can safely assume they have acclimated to the ice cold temperatures. If you then transport the rounds on ice you can safely assume they are at the temperature of the ice. If you stick the rounds in boiling water and transport them in a thermos you can safely assume the rounds will acclimate to the temperature of the water by the time you reach the range. This isn’t rocket science.
That’s an interesting post.
This weekend I was at a match and during sight in I was 30 fps faster than my proven Dasher load ( N150 at almost sea level) and temperatures where in the 90’s at 3000 ft ASL..
Saturday’s we’ve hit more than 94’s so I guess the speed must have increase again. That would explain some of my strange miss..
While reading this “Long” post, I noted that several members placed their loaded ammo in fridge over night to cool down to low forties/upper 30 degrees. I have a question – What about condensation.
If testing the round, if the round is subjected to ambient temps below the dew point (DP) condensation will form on the ammo – just like glasses fog-up when going from an AC cooled room to outside on a hot humid day. IE. Ambient temp of 70 degrees/RH of 50% DP = 50 degrees, 75 degrees/RH of 60% and DP = 60. At or under this conditions and ammo is below the DP, then condensation will form.
More concerned about changes in POI and group size than velocity changes as If only velocity is affected then that can be adjusted for.
If testing the round, if the round is subjected to ambient temps below the dew point (DP) condensation will form on the ammo – just like glasses fog-up when going from an AC cooled room to outside on a hot humid day. IE. Ambient temp of 70 degrees/RH of 50% DP = 50 degrees, 75 degrees/RH of 60% and DP = 60. At or under this conditions and ammo is below the DP, then condensation will form.
More concerned about changes in POI and group size than velocity changes as If only velocity is affected then that can be adjusted for.
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I can't help you much, but I've wondered the same thing as well?
Something I've noticed also is: I've had a few guys recommend one freezing or cooling down their ammo in order to find out how your powder/rounds will act in colder temps... and I've only tried it once thus far, but it didn't really tell me much of anything. Shooting ammo that was reading 45degF per a temperature gun, while in the high 70's, was nothing at all like the results I got when actually shooting in conditions at an ambient ~45degF... maybe it works for some, but for me it didn't help at all really (except now I have some data on shooting 45F ammo in the upper 70F's).
I think you can only glean so much without actually having the ambient conditions in place...
Leave it in the cooler until youre ready to shoot it, wipe it down before you chamber and dont let it sit there forever? Seems pretty simple to me.
Rifle 6.5 CM (Ruger and Savage) – Powder (SB 6.5) and primers (Fed 210M) should be here this week-end.
Barnes list SB 6.5 as the most accurate powder for their 127 gr LRX bullet (Take with a healthy grain of salt). They show 39.5 grains@2505 ft/Sec and max = 45.0 Compressed@2883 ft/Sec.
I would like to try the SB 6.5 with their 120 grain TTSX bullet. SB is not shown on their loading chart. Maybe it’s Yuk, Maybe they just didn’t test it??
Hodgdon shows 41.7 grains@2735 ft/Sec; Max is 45.3 grains @ 3004 ft/Sec Using Hornady case and 120 grain A-Max bullet. I’ll be using Nosler cases initially.
I’m thinking that 43.5 grains would be a good starting point and work up to say 44.5 grains, Your thoughts???
Barnes list SB 6.5 as the most accurate powder for their 127 gr LRX bullet (Take with a healthy grain of salt). They show 39.5 grains@2505 ft/Sec and max = 45.0 Compressed@2883 ft/Sec.
I would like to try the SB 6.5 with their 120 grain TTSX bullet. SB is not shown on their loading chart. Maybe it’s Yuk, Maybe they just didn’t test it??
Hodgdon shows 41.7 grains@2735 ft/Sec; Max is 45.3 grains @ 3004 ft/Sec Using Hornady case and 120 grain A-Max bullet. I’ll be using Nosler cases initially.
I’m thinking that 43.5 grains would be a good starting point and work up to say 44.5 grains, Your thoughts???
Wiping the case should be a given. The question then boils down to timing. The amount of time in chamber, Condensation can form quickly depending on the DP differential. This case condensation may be reduced depending on the amount of air surrounding the case when chambered as the total moisture (lbs/cubic ft) is reduced the tighter the case fit in the chamber.
I’m more concerned if I’ve developed a load at low temps (ie 30->40 degrees) that are close to max and I fire that round on a range during the summer – 85+ degrees. Will I now be way over pressure, NOT concerned about a delta of 50 ft/Sec UNLESS it effects my group size.
Has anyone tried this powder in 6.5x47? I'm wondering if it is too fast for the smaller case volume.
You mean too slow.
Its gonna be fine but it won’t burn completely.
Thanks for the correction. The unburned powder is what I am worried about. I was surprised to see how much further down the burn chart it was compared to varget.
I know a couple guys that are using it very successfully in 6.5 Creedmoor sized cases and getting excellent results. Consistent with faster speeds than achievable with H4350 in that sized case. Plus it meters really well.
I’m planning on picking some up at some point, just in no hurry.
I’m planning on picking some up at some point, just in no hurry.
Oky dok, Was more a question in the back of my mind. Like I said I'm more concerned about group size and not exceeding pressure when/if I develop a load when ambient temp is say 40 for hunting and then shoot that load during the summer when temps are in the 80's.
I don’t have any issues at 120 degrees with Hodgdon’s max load with 140’s in Hornady brass.
I ran a velocity test tonight with 140 Berger Hybrids and Hornady w/ wlr primer and Lapua w/ CCI BR4 and 450's
25in barrel.
44.0 grains was at 2762 in the Hornady but primers started flattening at 43.7.
The Lapua hit 2820 and 2827 respectively with out pressure signs.
Out of curiosity what speeds are you getting?
Kind of I guess. It was just different: cold ammo + normal/warm gun = one speed, shooting in the actual colder temps (so cold ammo, cold gun, cold in real life) = another speed. Take that with a grain of salt I (I did say I've only tried it once)...
From what I've seen with Sta-Ball, it seems to increase in speed fairly linearly relative to the ambient temperature as it gets warmer, but, it does so more aggressively than most of us are used to like with something truly temp-stable like H4350. Not sure exactly what it works out to, but IIRC H4350 at it's worst would pick up ~+1fps per degree warmer, with Sta-Ball it's more like double that and then some, so instead of +~10-20fps going from 70F-90F, it's more like ~40-50fps.
It's not wonderful, but Strelok will track it pretty well if you've got 2-3 chrono days locked in, each 10 degrees apart. To me it's absolutely worth putting up with, since it allows me to load rounds as consistent as one can with an AT V3, but in about 1/5th the time or less, with a ~$50 powder measure and ~$50 scale. In fact, it's spoiled me enough to where if someone gave me a Prometheus for free tomorrow, I probably wouldn't even use it (too slow).
Now, it's when the temps drop and it's suddenly colder that I haven't got really figured out yet, my dope goes all wonky below 60degF... hopefully I can solve that riddle come November/December...
Separate post here, because separate topic sort of:
I'm curious what other guys' who've been using Sta-Ball for while thoughts are on case fill? I haven't got too deep into the weeds looking into it, but anyone else notice that it seems like case-fill doesn't have nearly as much effect on the load as with extruded/stick powders?
As I've backed my gun down in speed to where I like to run it these days, a leisurely "middle of the RPM's" load (6creed: 112/115gr @ ~2900fps), my ES/SD numbers have either stayed the same or usually, improved... even as case-fill has gotten worse due to using less powder (you can literally shake my rounds next to your ears and hear the grains of powder shaking around there's so much empty space in there). Seems to be a cool side-effect from the ball powder I think?
I'm curious what other guys' who've been using Sta-Ball for while thoughts are on case fill? I haven't got too deep into the weeds looking into it, but anyone else notice that it seems like case-fill doesn't have nearly as much effect on the load as with extruded/stick powders?
As I've backed my gun down in speed to where I like to run it these days, a leisurely "middle of the RPM's" load (6creed: 112/115gr @ ~2900fps), my ES/SD numbers have either stayed the same or usually, improved... even as case-fill has gotten worse due to using less powder (you can literally shake my rounds next to your ears and hear the grains of powder shaking around there's so much empty space in there). Seems to be a cool side-effect from the ball powder I think?
Question for the group on using StaBall with lighter bullets..... I picked up 2lbs of it when it briefly became available at powder valley but haven't shot any yet as I have been concenting on working up comp loads for my .260 gas gun. I checked on Hogden's site and they don't list any bullets less than 140's. I was hoping to try them with my 130 Bergers. Has anyone had any luck with the lighter bullets w/ Staball, especially in a gas gun? I don't want to waste a bunch of components chasing something that is not going to work. Any inputs on if it works ok with 120-130 gr class bullets and/or why it works better with heavier bullets would be appreciated. TIA.
Just got my SB 6.5. Going to try it in my 6.5 Creedmoor w/ 120 grain Barnes TTSX and the 127 Grain LRX.
What I've found:
120 grain: No Barnes data. Hodgdon (For 120 gr a-max bullet) shows 41.7 gr. @ 2735 Ft/Sec Max = 45.3 Gr @ 3004 ft/sec.
127 Gr Barnes shows 40.5 Gr @ 2584 ft/sec & a Max of 44.0C @ 2883 ft/sec
Hodgdon f/same bullet: 40.3 Gr @ 2602 ft/sec w/Max of 44.8 Gr @ 2891 ft/sec.
What I've found:
120 grain: No Barnes data. Hodgdon (For 120 gr a-max bullet) shows 41.7 gr. @ 2735 Ft/Sec Max = 45.3 Gr @ 3004 ft/sec.
127 Gr Barnes shows 40.5 Gr @ 2584 ft/sec & a Max of 44.0C @ 2883 ft/sec
Hodgdon f/same bullet: 40.3 Gr @ 2602 ft/sec w/Max of 44.8 Gr @ 2891 ft/sec.
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