I was going to accuse it of being inverse sensitive but the velocity Increase does not support it.
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
When this powder first came out I did a test and reached out to the head of ballistics with my testing. I reported a 0.5 FPS per degree F change on average and they said that was within their acceptance.
Did some testing on this over the last two days. Was looking for a 6.5 cm load that I could shoot out of multiple rifles. Tested on two so far and with 142 SMK at 2.78 oal, 44.3 gn gave me no pressure and really good results. On a 26" barrel I got 2905 with an SD of 10 and under .5 inch. On a 20" barrel I got 2765, SD of 14 and still under half inch. Shooting at 120 meters, FWIW. These are loaded on a 550, so 44.3 is what I set, but there will be a little variation. With that in mind, these are really good results for me. No pressure signs at all. The 142s are so easy going, that I am not sure it actually says much about the powder.
Loaded 5 rds each from 44.5 to 45.9 with .2 increments. Projectile is 130 eld blems from Midway. Looking for a good practice ammo at 200yards using my RCBS uniflow. Will update you guys with the results.
44.7 gave me 2860 out of a 24 inch tube decent sd and es 130 eld
I’ve found a great load w/ 43.4 Gr, 2,792 avg velocity with a SD 2.8 ES 5 on a 12 shot string. 6.5 CM, 26” Shilen SSM bbl, Lapua brass with CCI 450’s.
12 shots is not really a lot of data but it’s shooting really consistent and predictable out to 1200 yards.
Took my loads from 43 to 44.4 Gr in .2 increments and settle here. Never seen any pressure signs.
12 shots is not really a lot of data but it’s shooting really consistent and predictable out to 1200 yards.
Took my loads from 43 to 44.4 Gr in .2 increments and settle here. Never seen any pressure signs.
Shot the 130 eldm blems loaded with 44.5 to 45.9 Staball. Magneto battery died so no velocity data. No pressure signs on all rounds. Will load 10 each of 44.7, 45.7 and 44.9 to confirm and whichever groups the smallest at 200 yards will be my practice load.
Read this whole damn thread because: H4350 is sold out everywhere, and this stuff isn't... if this stuff can be thrown manually at +/- .1-.2 grains without having to weigh every charge, and shoots, then it could be great.
That said/thing is: 11 pages, many columns of numbers, a bunch of fuckery/arguing about temperature stability, but very few decent groups.....
Does this stuff shoot or what? Speeds, ES/SD's, etc don't mean shit if the stuff won't shoot, anyone actually having any success with it versus their "normal" powder?
Sorry to sound snarky, but I think really the only data point most of us care about is: if one can regularly print 1/2” or less groups using their usual powder (say H4350) whether or not one can do it with this StaBall stuff too?
That said/thing is: 11 pages, many columns of numbers, a bunch of fuckery/arguing about temperature stability, but very few decent groups.....
Does this stuff shoot or what? Speeds, ES/SD's, etc don't mean shit if the stuff won't shoot, anyone actually having any success with it versus their "normal" powder?
Sorry to sound snarky, but I think really the only data point most of us care about is: if one can regularly print 1/2” or less groups using their usual powder (say H4350) whether or not one can do it with this StaBall stuff too?
Last edited:
Awesome, thanks! (Actually you were were one of he only guys who posted groups/accuracy with it lol.)
And yeah, I know the numbers are what they are, and matter... just feel like most of the posts were of guys getting deeper into their chrono numbers more so than getting into seeing if it was shooting for them.
As an aside: how's that 6GT working out? Feeding closer to 6 creedmoor than 6 dasher hopefully? Thinking about going to the GT if I don't stick with 6 creed...
(since we're talking about the new powder on the scene, might as well ask you about the new caliber on the scene)
Last edited:
That's more like it... Thanks guys.
I think I'm going to give this stuff a try. I've still got some H4350 to get through, but I think just the fact that this stuff will meter so much easier makes it worth trying for me...
I think for guys who already own a good electronic dropper, or even a nicer/pricier more accurate scale, are willing to weigh each charge, and have a stash or can get ahold of the "usual suspects" like H4350/Varget, there probably isn't much reason to really pay attention to this stuff...
But, for someone like me who has a mediocre powder measure, trickler and scale, and/or guys who just wanna throw powder on a progressive while loading, it may be worth dealing with this stuff being a bit less temp-insensitive than we're used to as a tradeoff for the ease of use.
I've searched and read a bunch of info all over, and as far as I can tell, based on what guys are reporting, looks like if something like H4350 changes around ~20-30fps between 30ish degrees to 90ish degree temps, comparatively it seems this stuff changes a bit over double that (like ~50-70fps). So I guess it depends if one can live with that.
For me, the biggest thing is time as far as loading for general shooting: I'd definitely still weigh individual charges as precisely as I can manage if I were driving a few hours to a match or was going to be shooting 1000yrds+ all day, but for "everyday" type shooting, just throwing powder into cases is so much less annoying and time consuming.
Just throwing H4350 isn't really as bad as some make it out to be honestly, my powder measure does it decently enough to where it hangs out around +/- .1 grain mostly, but there are always those drops now and then where I'm breaking sticks (I always throw the hard/bad ones back then cycle once or twice after getting one) that can be +/- .6... I only do this when I'm throwing lower charges for a low node I've found with my rifle, obviously this is no bueno if I'm throwing a few grains more at my higher node, I don't chance it when there could be pressure issues.
That said, in my case, switching to this stuff might actually end up being more consistent overall for me as even when I weigh individual charges I'm doing it on a $50 scale, not a $500 one. And since I'm lazy and tend to just throw H4350 straight into cases more often than not, I know this stuff will be closer to my target weight on average than the stick powder. So who knows... I might dig it.
I think I'm going to give this stuff a try. I've still got some H4350 to get through, but I think just the fact that this stuff will meter so much easier makes it worth trying for me...
I think for guys who already own a good electronic dropper, or even a nicer/pricier more accurate scale, are willing to weigh each charge, and have a stash or can get ahold of the "usual suspects" like H4350/Varget, there probably isn't much reason to really pay attention to this stuff...
But, for someone like me who has a mediocre powder measure, trickler and scale, and/or guys who just wanna throw powder on a progressive while loading, it may be worth dealing with this stuff being a bit less temp-insensitive than we're used to as a tradeoff for the ease of use.
I've searched and read a bunch of info all over, and as far as I can tell, based on what guys are reporting, looks like if something like H4350 changes around ~20-30fps between 30ish degrees to 90ish degree temps, comparatively it seems this stuff changes a bit over double that (like ~50-70fps). So I guess it depends if one can live with that.
For me, the biggest thing is time as far as loading for general shooting: I'd definitely still weigh individual charges as precisely as I can manage if I were driving a few hours to a match or was going to be shooting 1000yrds+ all day, but for "everyday" type shooting, just throwing powder into cases is so much less annoying and time consuming.
Just throwing H4350 isn't really as bad as some make it out to be honestly, my powder measure does it decently enough to where it hangs out around +/- .1 grain mostly, but there are always those drops now and then where I'm breaking sticks (I always throw the hard/bad ones back then cycle once or twice after getting one) that can be +/- .6... I only do this when I'm throwing lower charges for a low node I've found with my rifle, obviously this is no bueno if I'm throwing a few grains more at my higher node, I don't chance it when there could be pressure issues.
That said, in my case, switching to this stuff might actually end up being more consistent overall for me as even when I weigh individual charges I'm doing it on a $50 scale, not a $500 one. And since I'm lazy and tend to just throw H4350 straight into cases more often than not, I know this stuff will be closer to my target weight on average than the stick powder. So who knows... I might dig it.
Cool.
I’m still on the fence about switching from 6creed to 6GT...
I was mainly hoping to switch for better barrel life but 2 things have come together to have me questioning the switch: first, I spent a little time and found a lower node for the 6creed that works great for my usual practice out to 600yrds (a soft-shooting 39gr of H4350 for ~2900fps) that shouldn’t cook my barrel as fast as my 41.6gr load, and... most chatter of the 6GT adding much in the way of barrel life vs 6creed has pretty much disappeared...
In fact, John Snow put out an article last week regarding the 6GT, and what he specially didn’t mention (barrel life) might speak louder about it than if he had...
The 6 GT Is a New Top Cartridge in the Precision Rifle World
Even for hunters and shooters who don't follow precision rifle trends, the end result might be a versatile general-purpose round for predators, varmints, and smaller big game
www.outdoorlife.com
The lower ES/SD’s BR/Dasher-like performance and slightly less recoil are still valid things to consider though IMHO. IDK
I don’t think cartridge design affects barrel life nearly as much as velocity. Barrel life will be pretty similar running 6mm bullets at 2900 from any cartridge. And there are some pretty cheap barrels now, so I think it’s silly to choose a cartridge based on that.Cool.
I’m still on the fence about switching from 6creed to 6GT...
I was mainly hoping to switch for better barrel life but 2 things have come together to have me questioning the switch: first, I spent a little time and found a lower node for the 6creed that works great for my usual practice out to 600yrds (a soft-shooting 39gr of H4350 for ~2900fps) that shouldn’t cook my barrel as fast as my 41.6gr load, and... most chatter of the 6GT adding much in the way of barrel life vs 6creed has pretty much disappeared...
In fact, John Snow put out an article last week regarding the 6GT, and what he specially didn’t mention (barrel life) might speak louder about it than if he had...
The 6 GT Is a New Top Cartridge in the Precision Rifle World
Even for hunters and shooters who don't follow precision rifle trends, the end result might be a versatile general-purpose round for predators, varmints, and smaller big game
The lower ES/SD’s BR/Dasher-like performance and slightly less recoil are still valid things to consider though IMHO. IDK
In general, there is a continuum of 6 mm cartridges. At one end you have the largest case capacity, the highest velocity, and by report the narrowest tuning windows: 6 Creedmoor. At the other end you have the lowest velocity, lowest case capacity, and easiest tune: 6 BR. I think for PRS it makes little sense to mess with the intermediates and if you handload, you should go with 6 BR or BRA. If you don’t hand load, get a 6 Creedmoor.
The other stuff is not worth worrying about. The feeding issues aren’t bad with a good mag kit, and people have them with 6 GT as well.
Well guys, had some time to load up 200rds and shoot it using 6.5 StaBall, and verdict is: I’m a convert.
I didn’t do anything too scientific, just tried 41 grains of StaBall vs my normal lower-node 39gr load of H4350... didn’t shoot too many groups because 100rds were on brass I mostly fucked up finding out the hard way that I need to buy a better trimming setup, and 100 in virgin brass, but everything was still .5” or under at 100yrds (some even with some ugly ass ELD-M’s that didn’t survive being pulled and then reloaded too well). I had no trouble at all ringing an 6” plate at 400, then out to 600yrds, so I’m convinced there’s enough accuracy potential there for me.
Edit: while my accuracy testing wasn’t too serious, I was mindful of my waterline at 400-600yrds, and it was as consistent or more so than I’ve ever been able to get before: turns out having your charges the same is pretty damn awesome!
Huge thing is: loading it consistently and accurately was a breeze even with relatively meager tools.
I have one of the newerish Lyman Brass Smith powder measures and a pretty inexpensive scale, very “Everyman”, no fancy Harrel’s measure or FX120, etc.
I just dropped it from the measure straight into the cases, no trickling anything, for the first 100, every 5rds I weighed a drop, 41gr on the money every time, the next 100 I weighed a drop every 10rds, again 41gr on the money every time... didn’t even show a .1 variance (admittedly using my “cheap” tools).
Even stopping to weigh drops, loaded the 200 in like 20mins...
I’m sure with a better scale with better than .1 grain resolution I would’ve seen a change, but for me using my current equipment I’m pretty impressed... I couldn’t even get near that kind of consistency with H4350 just dropping, shit even trickling I’d probably of let a few +/- .1 pass... (and dropping and trickling 200rds is measured in hours not minutes lol).
The stuff just meters so easily, it’s a huge upgrade IMHO until I own the right equipment to get that kind of consistency between charges with H4350. So for a while I’m sticking with it.
Yes, I know the StaBall isn’t as temp stable as the H4350, but it meters about 1000% easier for me, and I’m sure my drops being inconsistent with H4350 outweighed any temp stability benefit by a long way. So I guess I’m choosing more load consistency over temp stability, and for me I think that’s the right move for now.
I didn’t do anything too scientific, just tried 41 grains of StaBall vs my normal lower-node 39gr load of H4350... didn’t shoot too many groups because 100rds were on brass I mostly fucked up finding out the hard way that I need to buy a better trimming setup, and 100 in virgin brass, but everything was still .5” or under at 100yrds (some even with some ugly ass ELD-M’s that didn’t survive being pulled and then reloaded too well). I had no trouble at all ringing an 6” plate at 400, then out to 600yrds, so I’m convinced there’s enough accuracy potential there for me.
Edit: while my accuracy testing wasn’t too serious, I was mindful of my waterline at 400-600yrds, and it was as consistent or more so than I’ve ever been able to get before: turns out having your charges the same is pretty damn awesome!
Huge thing is: loading it consistently and accurately was a breeze even with relatively meager tools.
I have one of the newerish Lyman Brass Smith powder measures and a pretty inexpensive scale, very “Everyman”, no fancy Harrel’s measure or FX120, etc.
I just dropped it from the measure straight into the cases, no trickling anything, for the first 100, every 5rds I weighed a drop, 41gr on the money every time, the next 100 I weighed a drop every 10rds, again 41gr on the money every time... didn’t even show a .1 variance (admittedly using my “cheap” tools).
Even stopping to weigh drops, loaded the 200 in like 20mins...
I’m sure with a better scale with better than .1 grain resolution I would’ve seen a change, but for me using my current equipment I’m pretty impressed... I couldn’t even get near that kind of consistency with H4350 just dropping, shit even trickling I’d probably of let a few +/- .1 pass... (and dropping and trickling 200rds is measured in hours not minutes lol).
The stuff just meters so easily, it’s a huge upgrade IMHO until I own the right equipment to get that kind of consistency between charges with H4350. So for a while I’m sticking with it.
Yes, I know the StaBall isn’t as temp stable as the H4350, but it meters about 1000% easier for me, and I’m sure my drops being inconsistent with H4350 outweighed any temp stability benefit by a long way. So I guess I’m choosing more load consistency over temp stability, and for me I think that’s the right move for now.
Last edited:
Thanks. But already cleaned out my local place of StaBall lol, I have enough to smoke my current barrel and then some... they were happy to let me trade a couple unopened 1lb-ers of H4350 for it too hahaha.
I probably pick up some more though before Election Day just because I’m paranoid... it’s just so easy to deal with: “Make dropping powder fun again”
When I got into rifle I bought a single-stage setup because I decided changing over my Dillon from pistol and back was too much of a pain in the ass to bother... mainly because of dropping powder. But if I knew then what I know now using the StaBall, I probably would’ve done it.
Last edited:
Just ordered 2lbs of Staball for my Bergara Ridge SP 6.5CM with a 18" barrel. I'm trying to work up a hunting load using Berger 135gr Classic Hunters and the Staball has me interested in the slightly higher velocities compared to H4350. I wish I had some Reloder 16 but can't find it anywhere. Will post some data and results when I start testing after breaking in my barrel and letting the velocity settle. I got a few weeks before rifle deer season opens in Virginia.
Still in stock @ Brownells, very little powder left to choose from. Maybe a 8 pounder is in order 
Updated: Ordered 2!
Updated: Ordered 2!
Last edited:
Put this in the gas gun 6.5C thread, but figured I’d add it here as well.
Ran a quick velocity ladder with full length resized, virgin, small primer Starline brass and StaBall under a Berger 130gr AR Hybrid. The adjustable gas block was basically shut during this ladder, as I didn't want to beat up the gun as I went up in charge weight. No pressure signs on any of the brass, but I presume the bolt barely unlocking had a hand in that.
Thinking I'll load up 20 each at 44.6gr and 45.6gr to get the gas system up and running and see what groups and velocity data I can start collecting.
22" Odin Works w/ +2 gas 6.5C MATEN suppressed w/ SDN-6
130gr Berger AR Hybrid
Rem 7.5 SR primer
Virgin Starline brass FLR'd
StaBall 6.5
OAL 2.750” puts the base of the 130gr AR Hybrid at the shoulder/body junction
43.2 2685
43.4 2756
43.6 2741
43.8 2770
44.0 2834
44.2 2824
44.4 2808
44.6 2802
44.8 2797
45.0 2847
45.2 2863
45.4 2854
45.6 2872
45.8 2859
46.0 2895
Anyone else played with the 130s and StaBall in a gasser yet?
Ran a quick velocity ladder with full length resized, virgin, small primer Starline brass and StaBall under a Berger 130gr AR Hybrid. The adjustable gas block was basically shut during this ladder, as I didn't want to beat up the gun as I went up in charge weight. No pressure signs on any of the brass, but I presume the bolt barely unlocking had a hand in that.
Thinking I'll load up 20 each at 44.6gr and 45.6gr to get the gas system up and running and see what groups and velocity data I can start collecting.
22" Odin Works w/ +2 gas 6.5C MATEN suppressed w/ SDN-6
130gr Berger AR Hybrid
Rem 7.5 SR primer
Virgin Starline brass FLR'd
StaBall 6.5
OAL 2.750” puts the base of the 130gr AR Hybrid at the shoulder/body junction
43.2 2685
43.4 2756
43.6 2741
43.8 2770
44.0 2834
44.2 2824
44.4 2808
44.6 2802
44.8 2797
45.0 2847
45.2 2863
45.4 2854
45.6 2872
45.8 2859
46.0 2895
Anyone else played with the 130s and StaBall in a gasser yet?
Is this the article ? ( Give it a second or 2.... it is from the internet archive )
https://web.archive.org/web/20051124202656/http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page2.php#top
You ever try AA2015BR in your 308? For my Remington 308 w/26" barrel it's a super accurate load, if I remember right I get 2660fps +.
I'm reticent to contribute to this knowledge base b/c I'm a green reloader, but if you will endure an idiot I'll share my brief exposure to Staball 6.5. Worked up to 43.6 and 43.8 both would have been fine, but went 43.8 just smidge better SD at 18 2720fps average out of 10 shots 22" Bergara B14. Both grouped well under .5" at 100. Trued in Hornady 4dof today at 500 bang on with axial form factor 1.0 and tried again at 800 bang on as well. 1000 dead nuts at 9.5mils was fun to have my elevation as repeatable as I've ever experienced. Liking it a lot hoping to get my throws better on my end so I can just drop them, but trickling each one up right now.
Glad to hear of good results. Care to share caliber, brass, bullet, and primer used for the sake of growing the data field?
oops missed that. Sellier & Bellot 6.5 Creedmoor brass(used to shoot their 140g FMJ), Winchester primers, Hornady 140g HPBT(American Gunner). I've got a Ruger Precision as well with a 24" barrel which is an absolute laser I'm tempted to work some up in that as well.
I’ve had great results in my Sp10 with 147 ELDs over 43.3 gr and magnum primers. Have to get them into our lab for a pressure test but cannot find any 147 projectiles in stock anywhere. All tests in JAG brass.
Have been playing with 135 A Tips with pressure testing, started a bit hot, hit 66k psi average at 45.4 grains at 2.800” OAL, but velocity SD of 3.8 at about 40 degrees F. Have to start playing with ladder loads below to get the accuracy I’m looking for. Wil try to keep updating here with P&V results as we do more testing.
Have been playing with 135 A Tips with pressure testing, started a bit hot, hit 66k psi average at 45.4 grains at 2.800” OAL, but velocity SD of 3.8 at about 40 degrees F. Have to start playing with ladder loads below to get the accuracy I’m looking for. Wil try to keep updating here with P&V results as we do more testing.
This stuff is the way. I really hope some other companies come out with similar ball-type easy to meter rifle powders like the StaBall... maybe they can get the temperature stability even better.
I’ve now gone through around 8lbs of this stuff, and can’t imagine going back to dropping-then-trickling-up. It’s awesome getting the consistency I’m getting dropping powder without having to buy an expensive auto-dropper.
I’ve definitely noticed the temperature affect velocity, but even with 20 degree changes (say shooting at 70’s outside vs 50’s) it’s only been about .1 Mil of elevation adjustment to true things up in Strelock at 500 yards with 6mm Creedmoor. I can live with that.
I’ve now gone through around 8lbs of this stuff, and can’t imagine going back to dropping-then-trickling-up. It’s awesome getting the consistency I’m getting dropping powder without having to buy an expensive auto-dropper.
I’ve definitely noticed the temperature affect velocity, but even with 20 degree changes (say shooting at 70’s outside vs 50’s) it’s only been about .1 Mil of elevation adjustment to true things up in Strelock at 500 yards with 6mm Creedmoor. I can live with that.
I'm new to reloading this year, but for my time constraints the simplicity of not trickling up changed the entire dynamic of reloading for me. The measure doesn't just drop kind of close it's dead nuts on not even a hash width off with the beam scale it's smack on every time. The accuracy out to 1200 so far is beyond anything I'd ever hoped for and while I recognize I'm not as picky as some reloaders I don't believe StaBall is gonna be holding me back.
Don't you have some work to get completed today so you can shoot tomorrow?
Got that new Spot Shot camera to try out...
Got that new Spot Shot camera to try out...
Been on this dang computer since 5am jamming, but I made that post while taking a dump so not slacking on company time. Back to the salt mine!
Okay. You're forgiven. Now stop looking out the window at all that Spandex and get back to work.
What steps are you loading it with? What die order? I am thinking of trying to load plain old 6.5 creedmoor 140 grain hpbt this way using StaBil and was thinking of doing to a two pass system.
Thank you that’s what i was looking for. Trying to close the gap on an intended saum build that i had to scrap because the barrel was already being turned down. So hoping this 1in8 twist 22” carbonsix barrel will stabilize a 115 EH at 3000 or so. That would’ve been about equal to the 129 ABLR load i wanted to do with a 20” saum.
Thanks for the heads up. I have some 105gr Hunting VLDs if the 115s don't pan out, but that is a hell of a jump. I hope my Proof does that for my 7 SS lol. I had my GF shooting the 7 SS today and she shot well out to 600 but watching her, it was a pretty big push for her. So i'm happy we're gonna have a light 6 creed. Powder Valley has an 8lb jug i'm tempted to grab it.
these days you see something you want you better grab it. There’s enough good data here for me to put back a couple jugs.
did your results differ from using older powder? Or are you saying just keep it in the jug?
It does for what I tested it for. In my 224 Valkyrie bolt gun it’s very consistent and I’ve shot it over the summer and now recently yesterday. That’s a 5 shot group at 100y with a 85.5gr Berger Hybrid.
Winchester StaBall 6.5 Smokeless Gun Powder
Enjoy increased velocity, temperature insensitivity, and reduced copper fouling with premium Winchester StaBall 6.5 smokeless powder from Powder Valley.www.powdervalleyinc.com
For 6.5cm and similar calibers. Powder Valley is calling it the greatest invention since Varget. Those are big shoes to fill. We will see if it lives up to the hype
Increased velocity
Temperature Instability
Reduced Copper Fouling
Precise Metering
Attachments
Thanks for the heads up. Nearing the bottom of my 1lb bottle I got for experimenting.
Just ordered 4x8lb kegs.
Similar threads
