New World Record

[timintx]

He hit a milk jug at 1500 yards on his 7th shot with a Bergara HMR in 308. LRSU doesn’t have anything close to 2 miles.

Let me rephrase it , it is lke hitting a milk jug at 1500 yards when shooting 4100 yards,

Tim in Tx

 

[abn31c]

Way too many erections in this thread........ I'm just here to help.....

 

[Ledzep]

They are the same groups. Who shot first?

The point is that if either shooter put 50 or 100 rounds down range they'd see the same final results, but with a small number of shots, the same capability has the potential to show up in very different ways-- more different the further you shoot. One dude thinks he's got stellar wind calls and bogus elevation. The other guy thinks he's going to waterline every shot and positive compensation is keeping him from experiencing the extreme ends of his MV spreads. Neither sees the whole picture of all the other shots not (yet) taken.

The other point I was getting at is while I obviously believe it's possible for the concept of positive compensation to pan out, I very seriously question what the shooter can manipulate in order to cause it to happen. People say things like "tune your load for positive compensation" and I sit here scratching my head wondering how an impulse into the barrel caused by powder deflagration has any bearing as far as mechanically sorting high and low velocity shots at the muzzle exit for vertical dispersion.... LOL like how consistent do you think each shot is??? Even shots with the same MV have variation in peak pressure and area under the P/t curve.

You have a +/- window for angular dispersion, MV, drag variability, and aerodynamic jump. Any and all of those factors can add or subtract from the total observed elevation dispersion at distance. Unless you can track high and low shots at a closer distance to prove to me the slow ones go high and the fast ones go low, I call BS on compensation as a thing you do on purpose. Does it happen some times? Sure. But you're just as likely to have them add than to subtract.

 

[Schw15]

So what is everyone's expectations on ipsc man size targets at 1 mile. With 20 shots what should be the hit ratio?

 

[Ledzep]

From my experience, at a mile you're still looking at fairly tight elevation spreads, even with the .30 cal stuff. Depending on how variable/gusty the wind was I'd say 20% on a rough day to maybe 60-70% on a good day. That's assuming 20 shots in fairly similar conditions (same day, same time of day). 1st round on 20 different days... very low.

 

[timintx]

The point is that if either shooter put 50 or 100 rounds down range they'd see the same final results, but with a small number of shots, the same capability has the potential to show up in very different ways-- more different the further you shoot. One dude thinks he's got stellar wind calls and bogus elevation. The other guy thinks he's going to waterline every shot and positive compensation is keeping him from experiencing the extreme ends of his MV spreads. Neither sees the whole picture of all the other shots not (yet) taken.

The other point I was getting at is while I obviously believe it's possible for the concept of positive compensation to pan out, I very seriously question what the shooter can manipulate in order to cause it to happen. People say things like "tune your load for positive compensation" and I sit here scratching my head wondering how an impulse into the barrel caused by powder deflagration has any bearing as far as mechanically sorting high and low velocity shots at the muzzle exit for vertical dispersion.... LOL like how consistent do you think each shot is??? Even shots with the same MV have variation in peak pressure and area under the P/t curve.

You have a +/- window for angular dispersion, MV, drag variability, and aerodynamic jump. Any and all of those factors can add or subtract from the total observed elevation dispersion at distance. Unless you can track high and low shots at a closer distance to prove to me the slow ones go high and the fast ones go low, I call BS on compensation as a thing you do on purpose. Does it happen some times? Sure. But you're just as likely to have them add than to subtract.

Well aware of the variables involved and have been manipulating barrel vibrations for many years doing just that . I am able to see what is happening using ladder testing as have many shooters in benchrest and other disciplines and changing and structuring the vibrations as well.

Tim in Tx

 

[Schw15]

Alright so on average if some one goes 12-20 there doing good on the standards now that is just the average threw the year. Some days 5 some 17 some 9 ect.

 

[timintx]

The point is that if either shooter put 50 or 100 rounds down range they'd see the same final results, but with a small number of shots, the same capability has the potential to show up in very different ways-- more different the further you shoot. One dude thinks he's got stellar wind calls and bogus elevation. The other guy thinks he's going to waterline every shot and positive compensation is keeping him from experiencing the extreme ends of his MV spreads. Neither sees the whole picture of all the other shots not (yet) taken.

The other point I was getting at is while I obviously believe it's possible for the concept of positive compensation to pan out, I very seriously question what the shooter can manipulate in order to cause it to happen. People say things like "tune your load for positive compensation" and I sit here scratching my head wondering how an impulse into the barrel caused by powder deflagration has any bearing as far as mechanically sorting high and low velocity shots at the muzzle exit for vertical dispersion.... LOL like how consistent do you think each shot is??? Even shots with the same MV have variation in peak pressure and area under the P/t curve.

You have a +/- window for angular dispersion, MV, drag variability, and aerodynamic jump. Any and all of those factors can add or subtract from the total observed elevation dispersion at distance. Unless you can track high and low shots at a closer distance to prove to me the slow ones go high and the fast ones go low, I call BS on compensation as a thing you do on purpose. Does it happen some times? Sure. But you're just as likely to have them add than to subtract.

Here is a graph set up for a military demo gun . The numbers at the top are powder charges of a 1 grain diifference . This makes the ultra long shots possible even with velocity variance especially cold bore shots.
Tim in Tx

 

[LastShot300]

There will be those that have issues with that mentality just as there are those with issues with the "I done this far" mentality but at the end of the day ELR should be about repeatability, consistency and reliability...not a 10% statistical chance.


Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Clearlight]

Here is a graph set up for a military demo gun . The numbers at the top are powder charges of a 1 grain diifference . This makes the ultra long shots possible even with velocity variance especially cold bore shots.
Tim in Tx

Tracking velocity and POI are very useful, as is using the device in the pic below.
Nothing new but very effective, consistency is everything.

 

[THEIS]

From my experience, at a mile you're still looking at fairly tight elevation spreads, even with the .30 cal stuff. Depending on how variable/gusty the wind was I'd say 20% on a rough day to maybe 60-70% on a good day. That's assuming 20 shots in fairly similar conditions (same day, same time of day). 1st round on 20 different days... very low.

Hi,

Well last months 1 mile match...the top 10 of 16 shooters took part in the final stage with 24" target at 1 mile...out of 50 rounds fired there were 3 hits.....

@Clearlight

Those 140k binos are working out for you, lol?

Seen the new lidar/doppler combo unit for mini UAV?


Sincerely,
Theis

 

[THEIS]

Way too many erections in this thread........ I'm just here to help.....View attachment 7593522

Hi,

Is that your proposed target size?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Submarine Sharpshooter]

From the outside looking in as a hunter and .mil boi - but absolutely no flavor of comp or ELR shooter - it’s hard to be impressed by tagging a target form that is larger than anything you’d have enough retained energy at that range to put down.

As others have said, put some plausible target forms out there and maybe the sport will mean
something

 

[THEIS]

From the outside looking in as a hunter and .mil boi - but absolutely no flavor of comp or ELR shooter - it’s hard to be impressed by tagging a target form that is larger than anything you’d have enough retained energy at that range to put down.

As others have said, put some plausible target forms out there and maybe the sport will mean
something

Hi,

To be fair...the target sizes have originated from meaningful sizes. It is just the implementation has lost its' meaning.

This comes from about 17 years ago when the growing civilian ELR world attempted to migrate itself to the Mil HTI world.

The HTI units were shooting LARGE real life targets.... Potable Water Tanks, Command/Control radar systems, Missile launch systems, Generator sets, etc etc

So the civilian ELR world took look at those sizes and said "We can hit that from even farther away"...Not completely realizing the HTI units distances were due to ammunition detonation...The Raufoss ammo is only supposed to detonate if it hits target at supersonic speeds. So that controls the distances.

Then in around 2006 timeframe videos were leaked of Poland and Turkish Mil training to hit "softer" Hard targets at beyond 2400m with the original 408 Cheytac cartridge (Which was different than todays) and that gave "Proof" to the expanding ELR world that they were on the right trail in regards to being able to operate at even farther distances with target sizes of the HTI units.

Since then...well the ELR world has split, is split and will continue to be split......
You have the Distance is only thing that matters segment and you have the practical applications is the only thing that matters segment.
There is pretty much no way to migrate them into a single segment.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[stefan73]

The FCSA recognizes 3 shot cold bore records. I wrote most of the rules that ELR Central initially went with. With their collapse we have stepped up to do it. The FCSA is an international sanctioning body that has been around for about 35 years so I'm not sure what else you want. We are sanctioning matches too and will likely codify the requirements this year. They are pretty much what you'd expect at this point since most of how ELR matches work has been figured out now.

As far as Ryans shot goes, It isn't a record that anyone recognizes but it is damn impressive shooting. He hit at 2 miles as well so him reaching out another 500 yards is probably more that luck would account for. In the end, you can sit back in your armchair and try to diminish someone else's achievements but to what end? If you aren't going to show up at a match and show us all what a badass you are, you need to shut the fuck up cause we are all sick of your bullshit.

-Alex

I didn't know FCSA even existed anymore after all the BS that happened or seemed to happen back in 2000's when FCSA missed the ball and failed to acknowledge and take advantage of what was a growing sport and as a result is still small.

What ever happened to Keith Pagel? I really liked that guy?

V/R
Stefan

 

[Ledzep]

Here's 35 shots of 1 powder charge. I have a ladder test that spans a couple grains with this particular test with 35 shots per powder charge. None of them are skewed to suggest serious, reliable trends that positive compensation is happening.

 

[Royalroadie]

I am surprised by all the armchair QBs. Ryan's shooting was truly out standing. I was not there , because the event was sold out. Several of my compatriots were there and I have talked with them. First off the target Ryan hit was a 1.5 moa at 41xxyards. I was out shooting in Kansas that day and I can tell you the winds were truly humbling. I have shot at Spearpoint on many occasions and the way the wind comes off the hills it can be very tricky to say the least. Ryan went 5 for five at 1943 on a 30 inch target in winds that were around 20 gusting up 40 mph. I would like to see the rest of these armchair pull that one off. I don't care how good you think you are those, winds will humble the best of the best. Your first shot starts at 1500 + yards and goes from there. This event is a scoring even to apply for Ko2mile. The guys out there, can flat out shoot. Yes his 2.3 mile shot had 3 miss before he hit. His wind drift was 90 feet and TOF WAS 9 seconds. I read one response talking about needing sd in the 20s -30s , that's laughable. Most of these shooters run there sd well under 10 or your not in the game. I have seen some of these rifle shoot SD well under 5. My hat is off to Ryan Cheney, he out shot most who where there, and did it with a 33XC shooting 300 grain bullets. I hope that I could come close to shooting as well as he did last Saturday. All I can say is those nay sayers , STFU

 

[Geno C.]

I am surprised by all the armchair QBs. Ryan's shooting was truly out standing. I was not there , because the event was sold out. Several of my compatriots were there and I have talked with them. First off the target Ryan hit was a 1.5 moa at 41xxyards. I was out shooting in Kansas that day and I can tell you the winds were truly humbling. I have shot at Spearpoint on many occasions and the way the wind comes off the hills it can be very tricky to say the least. Ryan went 5 for five at 1943 on a 30 inch target in winds that were around 20 gusting up 40 mph. I would like to see the rest of these armchair pull that one off. I don't care how good you think you are those, winds will humble the best of the best. Your first shot starts at 1500 + yards and goes from there. This event is a scoring even to apply for Ko2mile. The guys out there, can flat out shoot. Yes his 2.3 mile shot had 3 miss before he hit. His wind drift was 90 feet and TOF WAS 9 seconds. I read one response talking about needing sd in the 20s -30s , that's laughable. Most of these shooters run there sd well under 10 or your not in the game. I have seen some of these rifle shoot SD well under 5. My hat is off to Ryan Cheney, he out shot most who where there, and did it with a 33XC shooting 300 grain bullets. I hope that I could come close to shooting as well as he did last Saturday. All I can say is those nay sayers , STFU

The 1943 target is 36”

 

[Ledzep]

ES vs. SD...

SD of 5fps you're looking at 95% of the population in a 20FPS ES. 99.7% of the population it's 30fps ES. (assuming normal distribution, sufficient sample size, confidence intervals, blahhh etc..)

AGAIN... I'm not taking away from the event, and concede that to even get in the ballpark of the target at 4134yd is nothing to scoff at, but the fact is even with a perfect aiming point the probability of impact is very low. I'm also not saying I can do any better. Just questioning the repeatability and practicality.

 

[phlegethon]

I have seen some of these rifle shoot SD well under 5.

I would love to see documentation of an SD well under 5 fps for a 25 or 30 shot string.

 

[THEIS]

I would love to see documentation of an SD well under 5 fps for a 25 or 30 shot string.

Hi,

Post up your chart that shows how easily one can be fooled into thinking they have crazy low deviations....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Geno C.]

ES vs. SD...

SD of 5fps you're looking at 95% of the population in a 20FPS ES. 99.7% of the population it's 30fps ES. (assuming normal distribution, sufficient sample size, confidence intervals, blahhh etc..)

AGAIN... I'm not taking away from the event, and concede that to even get in the ballpark of the target at 4134yd is nothing to scoff at, but the fact is even with a perfect aiming point the probability of impact is very low. I'm also not saying I can do any better. Just questioning the repeatability and practicality.

Repeatability and practically; he impacted 1 time on each of the last 3 targets. First one of those being at 2203 yd. all targets were over moa and some, well over. If that is practical or repeatable I guess is up to whoever wants to decide for themselves

 

[phlegethon]

Hi,

Post up your chart that shows how easily one can be fooled into thinking they have crazy low deviations....

Sincerely,
Theis

Well, here is a graph of SDs of consecutive five shot groups from thirty shots with a true SD of 10. Look how many are under 6.

 

[sinister]

Not trying to be a dick, but this is a standard FCSA target for ELR competition? Used world-wide by the sanctioning body to see if it's a repeatable-breakable record (certifiable by an outside witness like Guinness)?

 

[Geno C.]

Not trying to be a dick, but this is a standard FCSA target for ELR competition? Used world-wide by the sanctioning body to see if it's a repeatable-breakable record (certifiable by an outside witness like Guinness)?

View attachment 7593765

Read the posts, there is no standard

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@sinister
Not speaking for FCSA but in regards to Guinness certification of anything ELR related; I have met and spoken with them on multiple occasions regarding requirements for an Official World Record and basically they will NOT even touch it due to the number of variables to make it "repeatable".

The written specifications in the World Record application would get so granular that there would then be essentially 1000 Official World Records for the longest ELR shot.... just because the next person submitted the official world record package and changed his scope to be at 21x instead of the previous guys 24x. Then the next guy changes to 21lb rifle instead of 28lb rifle, then the next guy changes from 1000ASL to 8000ASL......

Last conversation with them was in 2018 so maybe something has changed.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[dragman]

I have never shot an ELR match,
I have shot lots of 1000 BR matches and i like to hunt long range. Like every shooting sport no one ever agrees on rules and everyone fights like a bunch of bitchy children that's I guess that's what grown men do.
It's cool that he did that sure, but it's still so early in the sport who knows how good bad or whatever it is.
For me ELR is for cold bore hits. If you can carry all your equipment in one trip to a firing line from a distance of over 100 yards sit/lay down and hit a sub MOA target at over a mile now you have my attention.

 

[Ravenworks]

I vastly prefer to settle discussions with rationale and facts. Thesis seems immune to such things and the number of times he has responded to peoples achievements or legitimate questions with degradation means the "cunt" shoe simply fits. He has been mentioned to me specifically as the reason a number of people in the match directing side of things and the manufacturing side of things simply don't come here. There are trolls on most forums, he is this ones worst offender. There is no point in tolerating such people, it only encourages them to behave worse so they can get a reaction out of someone. That is his purpose here. It isn't sharing information or intelligent discussion. He spends all his time here because he is a looser with nothing better to do than rile people up all day.

-Alex

But Alex-
Can you wear a track suit that serves as a barometer for style and wind?

Do you have access to the best lamb in the USA?
"I'm not talking about the meat your mother got from the Schwan's driver either"

 

[Geno C.]

I have never shot an ELR match,
I have shot lots of 1000 BR matches and i like to hunt long range. Like every shooting sport no one ever agrees on rules and everyone fights like a bunch of bitchy children that's I guess that's what grown men do.
It's cool that he did that sure, but it's still so early in the sport who knows how good bad or whatever it is.
For me ELR is for cold bore hits. If you can carry all your equipment in one trip to a firing line from a distance of over 100 yards sit/lay down and hit a sub MOA target at over a mile now you have my attention.

What if I don’t want your attention? I’m married, and don’t swing that way.

 

[Schw15]

I deleted it since there was a lack of grammer and proper way of writing on thread. Instead of talking about shooting ect we all need to be very carful how we talk and how we write. I should of listened better in school i guess didnt know internet cops would correct me so much lol wow

 

[northern50]

I didn't know FCSA even existed anymore after all the BS that happened or seemed to happen back in 2000's when FCSA missed the ball and failed to acknowledge and take advantage of what was a growing sport and as a result is still small.

What ever happened to Keith Pagel? I really liked that guy?

V/R
Stefan

Keith still edits and does the majority of the magazine publishing. There are plenty of authors from within the membership.

 

[phlegethon]

I don't shoot competitions I really want to start but after seeing all the crying and griping people getting mad I don't even know if it's worth dealing with all that just to shoot I shoot long-range for fun with friends we shoot out the 2000 yards. We tend to shoot at smaller Target's the normal but of course the goal is always to get a first round impact even out of mile but I think everybody forgets the main factor wind I think the king of 2 miles has a good setup certain amount of shots for a specific distance as much as I would love to say oh yeah first round impacts at a mile is easy in common it's not the wind is very tricky especially where we shoot comes over a hill and the targets are in a bowl and the wind swirls we are human and our gear is what it is I think everybody is expecting more than what is capable we can only read the wind so much at those distances I believe I could be wrong and I'm sure there's somebody out there that is going to sell me a dumb I am and blah blah blah but the truth is is what it is if you shot at those distances you know the wind is difficult first round in packs are not common they do happen and what the guy did is great how many times have you guys hit a Target over 4100 yards?

Sir, may I direct your attention to these things? They may help you.

 

[Schw15]

Sir, may I direct your attention to these things? They may help you.
View attachment 7593856

I was voice texting but that's all that you took away from what this actually is

 

[THEIS]

Sir, may I direct your attention to these things? They may help you.
View attachment 7593856

Hi,

Careful!!!! And just like that Match Directors and "Industry" manufacturers will not come to SH, lolololol

Just Kidding....Don't take it personal MDs (Not Medical Doctors, lol)

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Geno C.]

Sir, may I direct your attention to these things? They may help you.
View attachment 7593856

That was really hard to read I knew it was talk to text because of the lack of sentences

 

[LastShot300]

I vastly prefer to settle discussions with rationale and facts. Thesis seems immune to such things and the number of times he has responded to peoples achievements or legitimate questions with degradation means the "cunt" shoe simply fits. He has been mentioned to me specifically as the reason a number of people in the match directing side of things and the manufacturing side of things simply don't come here. There are trolls on most forums, he is this ones worst offender. There is no point in tolerating such people, it only encourages them to behave worse so they can get a reaction out of someone. That is his purpose here. It isn't sharing information or intelligent discussion. He spends all his time here because he is a looser with nothing better to do than rile people up all day.

-Alex

I think you should take the time to read Theis very informative posts, who is far from being a troll. Indeed a great contributor to this forum in many ways you simply are ignoring because of your stance against any opinion that contradicts your views of the sport, not a serious attitude in my book. Instead of calling names and behave like a 5 yo kid why don't you start putting up some real and valuable info? Your "I know everything and got it right all the time" attitude surely doesn't help.

I wish we have more industry guys like Theis with an open no-barren BS about his products development, in fact never have seen nothing like that before.

 

[Diver160651]

Hi,

@sinister
Not speaking for FCSA but in regards to Guinness certification of anything ELR related; I have met and spoken with them on multiple occasions regarding requirements for an Official World Record and basically they will NOT even touch it due to the number of variables to make it "repeatable".

The written specifications in the World Record application would get so granular that there would then be essentially 1000 Official World Records for the longest ELR shot.... just because the next person submitted the official world record package and changed his scope to be at 21x instead of the previous guys 24x. Then the next guy changes to 21lb rifle instead of 28lb rifle, then the next guy changes from 1000ASL to 8000ASL......

Last conversation with them was in 2018 so maybe something has changed.

Sincerely,
Theis

We used 24" plates (maximum) to 2800 and generally 100% IPSIC out to a mile, pre-2010. In 2012, we added camera systems and posted the how-to DIY on the Hide. Some of that old info was ported (reposted) on the "New Hide" 4 years ago ( but 2012-2014 ish videos). https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-2-camera-system-with-integrated-dvr.6283948/

Here is an example showing 2400y 7 years ago on a 24" target (<1 MOA) Misses are left in the video.

The entire point being, we've used a reasonable-sized plate. It was not until the last few years people go stupid with their plates. Yes, we hit shit past two miles but we usually just milled a distinctive rock with a really good signature potential as it was just random pokes and silly at best.

Target sizes should NOT just be a MOA-based target, but capped at a reasonable size like 24x24, or eventually, the target just becomes something larger than life and better suited for tools other than a pack rifle. When you cap the target size to a reasonably sized target like a 24x24, you also self-regulate the practical distance shoulder-fired rifles would be effective, therefore energy and hit probability take care of themselves.

I lost my taste for ELR as guys started showing up with 50lbs rifles in F-class gear and shooting at big targets and not able to carry them get more than a couple of yards from the truck or worse yet, have 5 guys show up and call it a match (LOL) and/or world record.

 

[stefan73]

Keith still edits and does the majority of the magazine publishing. There are plenty of authors from within the membership.

Awesome, he used to send me some good info when I was in Baghdad working in the early 2000's. Great guy!

I'm going to have to look him up.

 

[timintx]

Theis , I know you have contributed a lot to shooting and I mean no disrespect. After seeing this thread in its entirety I agree with all you have said regarding matches and what they should be . The only thing I disagree with is practicality. No lives are on the line here and fun is the main objective,so it is the low probability shots that bring people to these matches , at least for me I wont spend a ton of money for matches that dont go to two miles or farther , not saying I am better then anyone else but I am just saying I want that challenge. I think the guys that are not shooting these matches would be surprised at the progression of shooters skills just in the last two years in Kansas and many other matches as well.. It is common for first shot hits on all targets out to 3000 yds, it is common for all 5 shots to hit out to 2200 or so, and true first shot in the morning cold bore is entirely possible now at 2913 which is normally the farthest target . So we are progressing at a lightning speed rate. I have even seen a shooter cleaning the first 4 targets, no misses so we can not keep it simple, I and many shooters want that low probability hit , to do so we have to move out with big targets first until the skill set catches up , I agree the targets are big but that is nothing a cutting torch wont fix. So we will get there but for now as the skill set increases so should the distance and then the targets get smaller.. The 4100 yd target is a BIG draw for me and many others and a push to all shooters to increase their skill set. I can promise you that hitting a cold bore at 2913 is a rush , not practical and is luck I agree and hearing the whole crowd cheer as it is done is a rush in itself. We have precision and reliability but practicality will not happen until our skill set catches up. For now I am just grateful to be able to shoot these distances regardless of rules and targets sizes. No claimed world records just first time ever is a big drive for us all .I want that 4100 yd target and will have the hit soon as will most shooters that shoot there I can promise you that unless they pull the target due to scoring or sighting issues. I could see the misses at 4100 so it is not a problem to spot so I hope it stands. Pushing the limits and practicality hardly ever go together. This is the present state of ELR at this time , I hope you can come out to more matches and see what I am seeing , but if I hit any long target all I am going to say is it was luck but a hell of a lot of fun, that should be the main goal at least in my view.

Tim in Tx

 

[THEIS]

Hi Tim,

I completely understand the "O shit, I hit that" mentality as well as the CHALLENGE mentality.

Question....would the challenge NOT be the same if an ELR match went something like this:

T1 @1500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T2 @2000 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T3 @2500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1 MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
Continue the distances until nobody makes it.

IF that is not challenging enough then drop target size down to 3/4MOA, then 1/2MOA???

Because one of the keys into getting your barrel system into the .mil hands is to show exactly the above more than farther/larger combinations, IMO that is.


We have production model Aspis set for completion first of May. I am trying to expedite a few things for 375 Swiss P by then but can throw a 300NM together and make the visit to Spearpoint for sure.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Geno C.]

Theis , I know you have contributed a lot to shooting and I mean no disrespect. After seeing this thread in its entirety I agree with all you have said regarding matches and what they should be . The only thing I disagree with is practicality. No lives are on the line here and fun is the main objective,so it is the low probability shots that bring people to these matches , at least for me I wont spend a ton of money for matches that dont go to two miles or farther , not saying I am better then anyone else but I am just saying I want that challenge. I think the guys that are not shooting these matches would be surprised at the progression of shooters skills just in the last two years in Kansas and many other matches as well.. It is common for first shot hits on all targets out to 3000 yds, it is common for all 5 shots to hit out to 2200 or so, and true first shot in the morning cold bore is entirely possible now at 2913 which is normally the farthest target . So we are progressing at a lightning speed rate. I have even seen a shooter cleaning the first 4 targets, no misses so we can not keep it simple, I and many shooters want that low probability hit , to do so we have to move out with big targets first until the skill set catches up , I agree the targets are big but that is nothing a cutting torch wont fix. So we will get there but for now as the skill set increases so should the distance and then the targets get smaller.. The 4100 yd target is a BIG draw for me and many others and a push to all shooters to increase their skill set. I can promise you that hitting a cold bore at 2913 is a rush , not practical and is luck I agree and hearing the whole crowd cheer as it is done is a rush in itself. We have precision and reliability but practicality we will not happen until our skill set catches up. For now I am just grateful to be able to shoot these distances regardless of rules and targets sizes. No claimed world records just first time ever is a big drive for us all .I want that 4100 yd target and will have the hit soon as will most shooters that shoot there I can promise you that unless they pull the target due to scoring or sighting issues. I could see the misses at 4100 so it is not a problem to spot so I hope it stands. Pushing the limits and practicality hardly ever go together. This is the present state of ELR at this time , I hope you can come out to more matches and see what I am seeing , but if I hit any long target all I am going to say is it was luck but a hell of a lot of fun, that should be the main goal at least in my view.

Tim in Tx

There won’t be the 3593 or 41 target next month. Those targets are on a neighbors pasture and the cows are in there starting early April.

 

[Jamie C]

I have never shot an ELR match,
I have shot lots of 1000 BR matches and i like to hunt long range. Like every shooting sport no one ever agrees on rules and everyone fights like a bunch of bitchy children that's I guess that's what grown men do.
It's cool that he did that sure, but it's still so early in the sport who knows how good bad or whatever it is.
For me ELR is for cold bore hits. If you can carry all your equipment in one trip to a firing line from a distance of over 100 yards sit/lay down and hit a sub MOA target at over a mile now you have my attention.

This cracks me up! Although I didn’t shoot so great, I carried all of my gear to the line. My Honda Civic 375 is tired, but I grabbed the rifle, the ammo, and the bag. No room for a dope card, I scribbled it on my hand. Meanwhile, the Bentley gang has all of the things, and it takes 3 people to set up..who also disregarded the rules and had 3 people helping fix a problem on the line while time was ticking. What do I know. I danced around the 3593 target though. If the plate was larger I could have impacted. Lol

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Sounds like Hoplite Arms last month....
2 different manufacturers ammunition in 2 different bullet weights in the new custom ziploc cartridge cases, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Jamie C]

Hi,

Sounds like Hoplite Arms last month....
2 different manufacturers ammunition in 2 different bullet weights in the new custom ziploc cartridge cases, lolol

Sincerely,
Theis
View attachment 7594001

That’s awesome! Rugged by Design, Simple by Purpose.

 

[sinister]

How about this?

1 minute tall / quarter-minute wide at 2000 yards.

Or a standard square or circle?

Something repeatable.

 

[Clearlight]

Hi,

Well last months 1 mile match...the top 10 of 16 shooters took part in the final stage with 24" target at 1 mile...out of 50 rounds fired there were 3 hits.....

@Clearlight

Those 140k binos are working out for you, lol?

Seen the new lidar/doppler combo unit for mini UAV?


Sincerely,
Theis

didn’t get the binos! Lidar/Doppler on a drone, hovering somewhere between the FP
and target sounds like fun. WiFi it back to Genesis with live updates! Should keep Gus
busy for a week or two

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Gus would probably quite on me if I brought that to the table.....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Bradu]

Hi Tim,

I completely understand the "O shit, I hit that" mentality as well as the CHALLENGE mentality.

Question....would the challenge NOT be the same if an ELR match went something like this:

T1 @1500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T2 @2000 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T3 @2500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1 MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
Continue the distances until nobody makes it.

IF that is not challenging enough then drop target size down to 3/4MOA, then 1/2MOA???

Because one of the keys into getting your barrel system into the .mil hands is to show exactly the above more than farther/larger combinations, IMO that is.


We have production model Aspis set for completion first of May. I am trying to expedite a few things for 375 Swiss P by then but can throw a 300NM together and make the visit to Spearpoint for sure.

Sincerely,
Theis

I definitely understand your thinking on target size and the 2 out of 3 to advance but I don't see many people showing up to be sent home after the first round. I didn't look at the target size for last weekends event but looks like only 5 out of 41 would have advanced past 1860 in the heavy class by your rules but I'm pretty sure they used a target bigger than 1 moa.

 

[Tokay444]

Shoot better. Stay longer.

 

[Diver160651]

Hi Tim,

I completely understand the "O shit, I hit that" mentality as well as the CHALLENGE mentality.

Question....would the challenge NOT be the same if an ELR match went something like this:

T1 @1500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T2 @2000 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
T3 @2500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 1 MOA. Must hit 2 of 3 to move on.
Continue the distances until nobody makes it.

IF that is not challenging enough then drop target size down to 3/4MOA, then 1/2MOA???

Because one of the keys into getting your barrel system into the .mil hands is to show exactly the above more than farther/larger combinations, IMO that is.


We have production model Aspis set for completion first of May. I am trying to expedite a few things for 375 Swiss P by then but can throw a 300NM together and make the visit to Spearpoint for sure.

Sincerely,
Theis

This is the best logic, but I think it can be modified as we do in our team UKD field match so people who drive long distances still get to shoot at the long targets they might not otherwise get a chance to.

T1 @1500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 20". 3 shots first-round impact 3pts, 2nd round 2 points, 3rd 1 point = 6 possible
T2 @2000 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 20". 3 shots first-round impact 4pts, 2nd round 3 points, 3rd 2 points = 9 possible
T3 @2500 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 24". 3 shots first-round impact 5pts, 2nd round 4 points, 3rd 3 points = 12 possible
T4 @3000 yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 24". 3 shots first-round impact 7pts, 2nd round 6 points, 5rd 3 points = 16 possible
T5 @3520yards. Any gun, Any sight system. Target size is 24". 3 shots first-round impact 10pts, 2nd round 8 points, 5rd 6 points = 24 possible * if this score is used as part of the winning total shooter must have impacts in 3 other distances.

Something like this everyone gets to try all the distances, round count is still low and realistically, someone might get a single lucky impact on 3500 or whatever but not multiple is they've missed everything else. T1 is a tune-up so people can get a good feeling and self-tune.