Night Vision Night Ops

[cantankerous]

Possums are very thick in Southern MO.
When I have ripe cantaloupe I can easily shoot several per night.

A dog will usually keep them away, but I haven't been able to find a dog that doesn't also eat my chickens.

possums seem to really love the rainy/drizzly nights too. If rain has set in I can usually find several of them prowling around.
Also; they can and will chew on a chicken THROUGH a wire cage, ask me how I know!

 

[WhereNow&How]

A dog will usually keep them away, but I haven't been able to find a dog that doesn't also eat my chickens.

An old method used to break a "good dog" from chickens. Catch the dog in the act and take a chicken and almost suffocate the dog to death by taking the chicken wrapping it around his nostrils till he almost passes out. Some dogs will then associate fear of dying with the smell of a chicken and want nothing more to do with them. Hard headed dogs, oh well.

 

[wigwamitus]

2022-06-17
1500-1600
95F
0-3 MPH SSE

Goal: Test Theon LR

Environment: Hot,100% humidity

Equipment:
Theon LR Thermal Clipon
556(14.5)
556(16)
556(18)

Activity:
New neighbor cantankerous came over to help me test.

He fired 1 without and 1 with 556(14.5) (the LR) from 156 yds and hit steel both times.

For the LMT piston gun (556(16)), we had to remove the front buis as the LR mount was too long. This is a piston gun, so forearm shorter than the 14.5
He fired 1 without and 1 with and hit steel both times.

Then I tried the 556(18) and hit steel both times, even given the huge mounting offset shown.

BTW, the Mk6 3-18x is mounted high on riser as this setup was done to support the apollo100. But Cant traded for the apollo100, so now I can lower the scope back down, but it was good to have it high to test LR ability to manage offset. I think the second round was about 2 inches lower than the first, but I need to retest a few times to be sure. I will do this.

I found it difficult shooting with thermal in the day. I usually shoot/look with thermal at night.

==

2022-06-17
2030
90F
0-3 MPH SSE

Goal: Test Theon LR

Environment: Hot,100% humidity

Equipment:
Theon LR Thermal Clipon
556(14.5)

Activity: I tried again with the 556(14.5) at end of dusk

Fired 1 without and 1 with ... got 0.68 iphy at 156yds on 6" face.

I had a hard time seeing the unheated steel with the thermal, so did not have a good aiming point, so much of the apparent POI shift might be due to aiming issue.

==

2022-06-17
2300
70F
0-3 MPH
Goal: Test Theon LR

Environment: Hot,100% humidity

Equipment:
Theon LR Thermal Clipon
556(14.5)

Activity:

1,7x 20 yds

==
4x(?) 100yds(?)

==
1.7x, 50yds

After last phone died, Dec 2020, I got KYOCERA phone, wanting something more rugged for the field and the KYOCERA is more rugged, but it sucks more than any other phone I've had as a camera, it won't stay oriented on the day scope occular unless I zoom in on the occular. Its an order of magnitude worse as a camera
But it is what it is, that's what I've got

==
Later 2022-06-18 at 0230 went out again
contrast just North of dead center
Brightness all the way down
toggle between: base, adaptive, sharp and wide, I used on sharp when viewing terrain and wide when viewing critters.
These settings got the best (more UTC like) image I could manage given the knobs available and the conditions and scene.
The focus ring is useable (barely) when still looking thru the day scope, so its not a PVS-30 on that score
And the focus is sensitive, so needs adjusting even within my field of view in new digs, between 10yds and 200yds.

Unfortunately, I didn't take my camera for this outing, but I will go out again tonight (and every night for next week) and take more. Will also fire up the propane torch and heat the steel, so I can test more on POI shift, after remounts, etc.

Image Adjustments:
Up/down
short press ENH
long press brightness
Left/right
short press ROI
long press contrast
focus
nuc (short press/long press)
polarity

ENH = base, adaptive, sharp, wide
ROI = Region of Intetest
NUC = short press shutterless nuc
long press must cover objective


More to come !!

 

[cantankerous]

My initial impressions were that the LR is smaller and lighter than I expected.
Maybe 50% longer than a TigIR.

Wig let me shoot first through the LR.
At first I struggled a little to see the steel target through the thermal; but it was nearly 100°f, very high humidity, and we were trying to observe a painted white steel target... Not ideal conditions for thermal.

I quickly found that pushing the right and left arrows changed the image settings (swhed between presets) gave MUCH better contrast and made the steel really stand out.
I went from struggling to see The outline of the steel to having a clearly defined target.
The image was less "natural" looking under the increased contrast setting but I suspect it will help with faster detection in the field.
Very cool feature IMO, much nicer than having to go dig into a menu to make adjustments.

The up and down buttons changed which area of the image the computer focused the image processing on. Options were top 3rd, center 3rd, bottom 3rd of the screen, or the entire screen.

Tapping the menu button cycles through the digital zoom, while holding it activated the menu.

Using Wig's 3-18 I started at 3x and slowly increased the optical magnification until I wasn't comfortable with the image anymore and found myself topping out around 10-12x.
I didn't have the opportunity to look at any fuzzy meat -filled targets, which could change my opinion on max magnification.

Overall I was really impressed with the housing and image.

The only real nitpick I could come up with was with the mount which was a different design than what I've used before. It wasn't bad just different and it took a little getting used to.

 

[wigwamitus]

2022-06-19
0000-0100
70F
0-3 MPH SW

Goals: Coop patrol & test LR

Environment: A few clouds, hot, 100% humidity, waning moon.

Equipment: 556(14.5), ATACR 1-8x, 77gr, RRS, Theon-LR

Activity:


LR settings:
ROI: full screen
Contrast: 1.00
Enhancement: ENH03 = wide
Brightness: Low (-320)

==


Coop 25 yds 1.7x on atacr. Below that and we tunnel, on 1.7x we see all 4 corners.

==
Deer 50yds 1.7x settings as above

Note, we are finally getting 3D image on the critter !

 

[wigwamitus]

Well, we lost 2 guineas in the past week, so I had to prioritize getting the perpetrator. The modus operandi was similar in both cases, and I had left the "unfinished" carcae so the critter would return to finish.
And he finally did last night and I got him

He was getting in to the "protected" area of the barn, by push thru a gap between the inner wall and the roof and that lead right to the rafter where the guineas slept. I kept shoring up all the hole-ishes I could find down lower, but it was a "failure of imagination" that I did not think of a more aerial attack route.

Well, that saga is over now. So I can get back to testing the LR at night. I had to hold up shooting at night so as to permit the perpetrator to return.

(edit: This was done with CMMG .22LR upper, VO 1-6x pstg2 mrad, eley 40 gr HP sub and apollo42(640) )

 

[wigwamitus]

July 2nd thru July 5th
70F lo 90F high
0-3 MPH SE

Goals: Test nox-18 has hybrid thermal clipon on 556(14.5) in front of ATACR 1-8x DMX.

( some background. Not all readers may be aware, but over the past 6 months, I've moved from KS to MO. Now in SW MO, on the North shore of Bull Shoals Lake about an hour East of Branson. The terrain here is VERY different than in KS. In the flint hills of KS we have gentle rolling hills and some woods and lots of pasture ground, only significant crop land was near KS river. You could shoot several kms if you had the proper permissions and could avoid shooting across roads (which was possible in some spots). Here in MO we are in the Mark Twain National Forest. There are very few natural clearings. There is some privately owned land in the forest, that was privately owned before the forest was "declared" and our new property falls in that category. Some of our land and some of neighbors land have cleared pastures. But they are tiny pastures compared to KS. We have a total of 22 acres cleared out of 80 and my neighbor has 70 acres cleared out of 110. In KS we had 200 acres cleared out of 250. So down here, a 200yd shot is a "long" shot. As the individual pastures down here are just a few acres each. We called small pastures like this "patches" back in KS
So "long distance shooting" is now an edge case. And FOV is now king - not magnification!
I'm waiting for some new Theon thermal clipons, and down to just one purpose built thermal clipon, the apollo42. But it spends all its time of the .22LR doing barnyard defense. I wanted to bring up a second gun in case I ever saw a larger critter near the chickens day or night. So decided to try to run the n18 as a "hybrid" clipon on 556(14.5) with atacr 1-8x. I use the word "hybrid" as this was used with the SNIPE when using the internal thermal reticle in front of the day scope. Of course the downside to this idea is the need to ignore your day scope reticle when using the hybrid clipon reticle - so this sort of "improvization" will not be for everyone. I don't consider it ideal, but I wanted to see if it would really work and if so, how well, so I decided to test it while I'm waiting for "real" clipons )

Environment: hot, dry, dusty, but still some mornings are foggy with inversion. The moon disappeared a few days ago.

Equipment: 5.56(14.5), ATACR 1-8x DMX, RRS, IMI 77, Nox-18. IPSC?2/3) steel.

Activity:

The 556 was already zeroed with the atacr at 156yds. So I mounted the n18 and then zeroed that in the day at 156yds using bolt gun with NX8 2.5-20x as a spotter.

.75 inch spread between the rds = .75/1.56 = .48 iphy at 156yds
I like the chevron reticle with the n18 as it allows precision aiming point and reticle least blocking the FOV.
I settled on 3x magnification on the day scope. That was about the max before things started to fuzz up ... I tested changing the focus on the n18 and then diopter on the n18 and the magnification on the day scope and observed no POI shift due to any of those.

==
Then at night, fired bolt gun at face (with PVS-27) and 556(14.5) at center of torso with n18.

==
Then took a few thru the lens pics

Coop

chevron aiming at target

close deer about 40yds, far deer about 100yds

Thru the lens pics with the kyocera sucque. I got this phone to be an outdoor phone and its a great one. But I didn't realize I would be giving up so much with the camera. In order to try to focus on the back of the lens, I have to zoom in and it still fights the idea. Any "fuzz" is the camera or me. The image was just like a nox or a reap or what you're used to with a BAE core device.
Summary: Net/net, I find this to be useful as an "emergency" solution. Its not perfect, but its way better than nothing.

 

[Boon20]

That double reticle would mess with my brain i would always be questioning if my blood sugar was low. But i like your improv skills.

 

[wigwamitus]

Received Theon MR (thermal clipon) today.

Its a little smaller and lighter than the LR version but has 50% more FOV. The LR marketing says 10x/12x on day scope and that seems to be the case based on my observation as well as others that I've heard from who have looked thru them.

Preliminary results seem to indicate the MR is good for 8x/10x on on day scope which again aligns with marketing.

So in my new terrain (heavily wooded area) FOV is definitely king and giving up 2x seems well worth it to gain 50% FOV !

==
Here's the MR with factory settings on 1x day scope.

5 deer (a mom and 2 fawns trying to drink and two other singles) between me and the target. The deer are about 60-100yds.

==
Fired a shot, hit upper right face (aiming at face) 156yds (from my "perch")

I guess I'm training my deer, the adults didn't even look up from their grazing and the fawns stayed where they were (I shoot almost every night and the deer live here too, so they're getting used to me).

I went to 10x to shoot and couldn't see face, the VO 1-10x reticle center is a bit large (this is one reason I like the ATACR 1-8x DMX for more precise shots). But I could see the torso, so a tried to put the center of the reticle where the center of the face should have been. So can't call this POI shift, would be called "aiming"

More testing to come but that's it so far.

I do like the size/weight and FOV compared to the LR, but a neighbor who owns an LR will be bringing his over one day soon and we will run them side by side for a good comparison.

 

[Evolution 9]

Eotech/Theon LR initial impressions: Discussion will be limited to clip-on use since that’s how most will use this device.

Posting here with Wigwamitus’s permission because I purchased the unit from Strictly Offensive Kit (Wig and his nocturnal associates) after years of thermal and NV advice/help from Wig.

My intended use/purpose: I keep an AR in the vehicle 24/7, partly for predator hunting/targets of opportunity and partly for protection. I prefer to have as much capability at night as I have in the day, and 2 rifles (day gun and night gun) take up more space than is practical. That, combined with my preference for distance shooting with a bolt gun makes a clip-on a reasonable choice.

Experience/Comparison: I’ve owned and extensively used 12 thermals. All had BAE cores except the LWTS-LR and COTI. I’ve looked through and/or shot through several others by Pulsar, FLIR, and BAE.

I LOVE this thing, but I’m going to be very critical to help others be aware of any potential cons to this unit.

Size: Everyone is calling this thing a big and heavy thermal… it’s really not. After all the reports, I was expecting a beast. It’s really not bad at all. I can shoot it off hand, and carry the gun with it mounted just fine. ANY clip-on will add weight, reduce how long you can carry it, etc., but it’s just not that bad. Size and weight are less than the LWTS-LR in ALL MEASUREMENTS and I don’t recall anyone complaining about the LWTS-LR.

Collimation: It’s 2022, but if anyone still doesn’t understand the difference between true military style clip-ons and the civilian “sight in” clip ons, there are a few threads here discussing it. Let’s just say the sight-in civilian units have their place, but aren’t comparable. I hunted a full night without “sighting in” the thermal (you can’t and don’t need to) or checking the POI. FYI, grabbing a coyote pup will get you bit, but it’s a worthwhile experience regardless. Also, don’t kick a dead rattlesnake unless you’re sure it’s actually dead… it was a fun night. First kill was a gopher in the day time at 126 yards. The gopher and subsequent tests demonstrated no measurable POI shift from the day setup. All my rifles are now “night rifles” thanks to this one device

To further test/demonstrate the true clip-on nature of the Theon, I placed 2 layers of card stock in the mounting surfaces (between the picatinny rail and thermal mount). I did this at the front of the mount in a way that would aim the thermal up and right of its original position. This was to simulate inconsistent mounting from plant life, debris, sand, etc. getting in the mounting surfaces (you know, like will happen in real life situations). The POI remained unchanged. Quadrupling the card stock had no affect, even though the mounting lever was unable to even start to close and the unit had to be held in place by hand!

Range: This is highly subjective based on your experience with thermals, location, and local fauna. In the mountains of central Idaho, I could easily distinguish between horses and cows at 850 yards, and between deer and elk at 700 yards. The latter distinction was made easier by intimate knowledge of the behavior and movements of elk and deer. I also located and identified (by behavior) two mature coyotes at 1100 yards. I dropped the leader at 165 yards and then missed the second one at 450 yards due to a rookie mistake that I’ll never divulge here . A human combatant could definitely be engaged with a single shot at 1000 yards if the wind was known. For anyone who has looked through a LWTS-LR, the Theon LR offers at least two times the the long distance/image capability.

Image: The image is very good but it’s not quite BAE/Trijicon/N-vision good. It’s not worse, but it’s different. I’m told the BAE core has some limitations for clip-on use, but the UTC line seems to contradict this… my current opinion is that I wish they used a BAE core but I’m still quite happy with this one. The image will “shimmer” under just the right circumstances while panning left and right. Basically it will adjust to the difference in temperatures too fast at times, making parts of the FOV go from very light to very dark or from dark to light. This is not a huge deal as it only shows up in the worst thermal conditions and can be mitigated by understanding the settings…

Speaking of settings, they are important. You can fire the unit up and hunt (or fight), but it’s worth playing with the settings to optimize the image for your conditions. It makes a noticeable difference. At about 250-300 yards, my buddy was counting antler points on two bucks with a Super Yoter, while I could only identify “deer” and didn’t even see antlers. The next night, I was seeing antlers on two different bucks at more than 500 yards… learn the settings and use them!

Mount: I’ve read concerns about the mount but it’s easy to adjust without tools and works great. If there are any issues, the ten year warranty and aftermarket capitalism will address them.

Fast quiet NUC: That about says it. It’s quiet (LWTS-LR could almost give your position away), but this is quiet and not obnoxiously frequent.

Brightness: The brightness settings could use a couple lower brightness levels. Its not that bad, but some lower settings would be useful. I’ll probably figure out a filter to dim it a little. I’m one of those guys who runs night vision at very dim settings to retain some natural night vision abilities in my eyes, so that may be part of my perspective.

Focus ease/depth: The focus ring is really easy to reach and operate (for me on my setups). I set it at about 300 and don’t touch it. That makes it excellent from 150 to infinity. Closer ranges may benefit from more adjustment but I don’t bother. Pictures below show a fence (fuzzy picture) at 11 yards with a 300 yard focus… yeah, it’s fuzzy, but you wouldn’t need to touch the focus to engage a threat or predator at close range. The next photo shows that it will focus down to 11 yards.

Day scope parallax: On the 4-16x42 ATACR, parallax set to 250 yards removed any error between scope reticle and thermal screen (head movement doesn’t move reticle in relation to pixels) regardless of actual range to target. This was close to the best focus as well but was not exactly. Focus and parallax are not the same thing and one is not necessary corrected by correcting the other. The 1-8 ATACR exhibited the slightest amount of reticle movement (barely discernible) with its fixed 125 meter parallax when my head was moved to the far edges of the scope.

Summary: For Me and my particular needs,

There isn’t a better clip-on currently available to civilians on the US market. Not by a long shot.

LWTS-LR? Not even close (though I’m impressed with the LWTS-LR in stand alone mode)… will have to test the Theon that way for giggles.

UTC-X? Better image, but less robust (recoil), no warranty on existing units, unknown repair/replacement supplies at Trijicon (hopefully good but unknown).

Voodoo units? If they ever become realistically available in sustainable commercial numbers, the S isn’t collimated and the M is way more expensive. I do suspect the M will be an excellent unit for those who can afford it.

I hope this helps you decide if the Theon units are right for you!
A big thanks to Strictly Offensive Kit for going above and beyond to get this into my hands in time for my trip!

 

[rlsmith1]

Wow, thank you for the comprehensive review! Sounds (and looks) like a sweet unit and very good to hear you don’t find the size of weight unbearable

 

[WhereNow&How]

Excellent writeup Evolution 9.

 

[Evolution 9]

BTW, here’s a crappy cell phone pic of the same car at 16X. Sure there’s some pixelization, but I’ll definitely dial to 16x for some shots

(The settings aren’t even remotely right in this shot, I just wanted to show pixelization at 16X.)

 

[SkyScrapin]

Recapping some notes from a few different conversations... for your reading pleasure.

The ClipIR (some calling MR) is extremely impressive with it's wide FOV and capability to pivot from 1-10x. Definitely fully utilized by an LPVO. The fixed parallax is about perfect paired with an LPVO too.

The ClipIR-LR (some calling LR) is equally impressive, with 2-12x or 2-14x being the sweet spot. You do get a little better PID capability out of the LR. Parallax is far closer to infinity, but not quite infinity. @Evolution 9 's photo is evident of what you can do with magnification at 16x, and like him, I also use higher mag for certain use cases, and it certainly works!

I grouped both the MR and the LR to check collimation. Essentially I was shooting between pixels with the MR and got a slightly larger group, but with the LR I had a more refined aim-point and managed day-optic like groups with a bolt gun. POA/POI shift was measured at .1-.2 mil radian of offset. For comparison's sake, my UTCxii also measures between .1-.2 mil radian of offset.

==========

For those wondering, the ClipIR-XELR (some calling it XELR or XLR or ELR) has a tighter FOV and even better PID capability than the LR. I have not checked POA/POI offset, but will. The optical range sweet spot I estimate (it's been 4 months since I played with this unit so going off memory) at 3-18x or 4-18x. You can squeeze up even higher, and we did, but you lose more hold over capability with each increase in optical mag.

 

[cantankerous]

@Evolution 9
I hear that Idaho has a night time wolf season, do you plan to hunt wolves with the LR?

 

[Evolution 9]

@Evolution 9
I hear that Idaho has a night time wolf season, do you plan to hunt wolves with the LR?

Yes. Definitely.

As an agent of several large ranches, I’ve been using night vision and thermal for wolf/coyote control for almost a decade. Last year’s law change is welcome but won’t change anything for me.

Even with thermal, wolf hunting is a low odds game. Almost all the wolves taken in Idaho are by trapping, or by dumb luck (elk hunting and happen to see a wolf).

Wolves are incredible animals. I’ve been about 20 feet from one, with night vision and an AR, for more than a minute and couldn’t get a shot (stayed just inside foliage line).

Another time, I was 60 yards from a whole pack. They sat against the dark trees (in direct visual line of sight) and howled at my FoxPro for 5 minutes. My D790 couldn’t see them (didn’t have an illuminator). I know exactly where they were because I hiked back up the next morning and saw the tracks and the spots where they sat in the snow.

As a side note, most of the tracks were like large dog tracks (big lab). Two sets were insanely large. Huge (said in Trump’s voice). Like, you wouldn’t believe it, huge. My hope is to get one of those.
In both cases, I believe a thermal would have changed the outcome (definitely the second occasion). I switched to thermal right after the second occasion.

Both of those were hard situations to replicate. It’s a time in the woods/numbers/luck game. A couple of guides have figured out locations and methods to improve success, but I’m not into guided hunts.

 

[stefan73]

Yes. Definitely.

As an agent of several large ranches, I’ve been using night vision and thermal for wolf/coyote control for almost a decade. Last year’s law change is welcome but won’t change anything for me.

Even with thermal, wolf hunting is a low odds game. Almost all the wolves taken in Idaho are by trapping, or by dumb luck (elk hunting and happen to see a wolf).

Wolves are incredible animals. I’ve been about 20 feet from one, with night vision and an AR, for more than a minute and couldn’t get a shot (stayed just inside foliage line).

Another time, I was 60 yards from a whole pack. They sat against the dark trees (in direct visual line of sight) and howled at my FoxPro for 5 minutes. My D790 couldn’t see them (didn’t have an illuminator). I know exactly where they were because I hiked back up the next morning and saw the tracks and the spots where they sat in the snow.

As a side note, most of the tracks were like large dog tracks (big lab). Two sets were insanely large. Huge (said in Trump’s voice). Like, you wouldn’t believe it, huge. My hope is to get one of those.
In both cases, I believe a thermal would have changed the outcome (definitely the second occasion). I switched to thermal right after the second occasion.

Both of those were hard situations to replicate. It’s a time in the woods/numbers/luck game. A couple of guides have figured out locations and methods to improve success, but I’m not into guided hunts.

I tried trapping them in Alaska. No luck, even on a well ran line that the wolves had.

 

[cantankerous]

Getting back to Idaho to hunt wolves is very high on my "want to do" list.

I worked with a contractor once who told me about a friend of his (In Idaho) who was hunting mt lions with a couple dogs.
He said his dogs picked up a trail, and ran some distance. By the time he caught up with them wolves (very territorial) had killed them both.

He said that taught him that the best way to hunt wolves was to pick up a small yap dog at the pound and tie it to a tree.

It wouldn't be my method of choice but I thought it was an amusing story.

 

[wigwamitus]

July summary.

Well, July was much less "exciting" than June in terms of barnyard patrol.

In June we lost 2 guineas to one coon and 2 roosters to two different opossum. Total 4 opossum, 1 coon, 1 armadillo, 1 skunk (and 2 pests) in June.

In July, we lost 0 chickens to predators, we lost 2 hens to "natural" causes (I think at least exacerbated by the 7 weeks of 100F+ high days). We have 8 hens remaining. We're discussing integrating some new chicks into the flock.

Got 1 skunk, 1 armadillo and 2 coons.

Also got 4 groundhogs, which are really just "pests". Their primary "threat" is probably to our well shed, which this colony live(s/d) under. I think the 4 were the whole colony, so I think they're wiped out for now. But also, they were getting thru the fences more and more frequently and bothering the hens who would run around and holler. Compared to the rabbits and squirrels which they ignore. So, my worry was, while running around and hollering they might make the ground hogs feel threatened and the ground hogs might "defend itself". And we value the hens infinitely more than we value the ground hogs ! So the ground hogs had to go.

Used .22LR with eley 40gr HP subs, AAC mini suppressor, VO pst g2 1-6x (a perfect scope for this application). Most of the night kills have been with the apollo42, but the last 4 were with the theon MR. Oh and that's a surefire IVL2-IR on 9 o'clock. Its a perfect combo laser for this application also. I actually have it on vis (green) laser with white light setting (it also has ir laser and LED ir illum). Haven't used it for any critter shots yet, but have used it to find the kills.

The coons

The armadillo and the skunk

 

[stefan73]

Possums are very thick in Southern MO.
When I have ripe cantaloupe I can easily shoot several per night.

A dog will usually keep them away, but I haven't been able to find a dog that doesn't also eat my chickens.

possums seem to really love the rainy/drizzly nights too. If rain has set in I can usually find several of them prowling around.
Also; they can and will chew on a chicken THROUGH a wire cage, ask me how I know!

I used a shock collar along with pressure and release technique to train that out of my dogs. None of my dogs is interested in any of my chickens. My one dog Barrett on occasion likes to be a butt and will jump into a clutch of chickens to make them fly but he doesn't chase or grab.

 

[wigwamitus]

... used a shock collar along with pressure and release technique to train that out of my dogs ...

Now why did'n't I think of that ?? I actually just got a garmin gps/shock collar to try out as a drone tracker. Its a bit big for that purpose. But We will be getting some outdoor dogs to LDG our goats. Garmin T5 mini with Alpha 10.

==
Had an unusual "stalk" when getting ground hog #4. It took several mins and I hardly moved my feet at all !!

So, the pattern had been that I would see these ground hogs (one at a time, never more than one) out in the "backyard" browsing on grass/weeds. For the first two I had exited from the front door (not visible to the back) and inched around the side of the house I caught them in the flank and got them with the 22 with one shot.
But the last 2 were tougher, more SA. Were they the adults ? IDK, all four were fairly heavy 20-ish pounds ?

So for #3 I exited out a side door and remained seated as I inched along behind the deck railing very slowly until I had an angle around the corner of the house, then held up and fired through the railing.

But #4 actually saw me when I tried that and heard/saw me when I tried method one. Knowing I'd be foolish to try any failed approach twice, I tried a third unlikely approach. Direct attack !
The back door opened up right near where #4 was. But how to open the backdoor to get a shot in time, our doors are not soundless !?
So I had the 22 in hand and I started opening the backdoor one mm at a time and then paused. And it heard me for about half the mm and paused its eating and I also paused. And each time, after a while, it went back to eating. Then after a bit, I'd open another mm and it would pause again. Well it paused for about half the mm(s). This went on for quite a while. Had it started moving off, I would've thrown open the door and gone for a trap lead shot, but it did not start moving off. The door was not a critter sound, so it probably considered that. Also, the grass was green and high after some recent rains and it was munching with gusto. So focused on that activity.
Eventually the door was free from the door sill and I could open enuff to stick the barrel out and take a shot and got it. But it took several minutes to get the door open. Good practice at that "patience" stuff !!!

Trap lead working well for me btw, when I got the double on the coons I fired 7 shots total and based on sound all 7 were hits, but I keep shooting till they stop moving. I assumed it was mom and club. In KS I had gotten several groups of coons and always they were mom+1 or mom+2. But when I went to move these two coons, they were both small. So either siblings or a young mating pair ? Or are the coons in MO smaller than the coons in KS? They one coon that I got that got the 2 guineas was much larger, so I think the pair were adolescents.
But the coons were moving for every shot and I used trap lead for every shot. Reinforcing the idea that trap lead works for me. I'd used it a lot in KS also.

 

[Ronin_64]

You sneaky, sneaky, sneaky SOB…good job!

 

[wigwamitus]

So,went out 2 nights ago right at the end of dusk to close chicken coop door and check surrounding electric chicken fence (layered defense, we even have a steel grating fence outside the electric fence - and we have me scanning the AO 2-3 times per night for 30-ish mins per session to pick off the predators as they roll in).
Heard yote howl, for the second time ever here and the second time this month. And some decent sized critter had made off with a ground hog I had just killed a couple of weeks ago, at night, I had planned to move it to the bone pile the next morning. So that alerted me to possible yote in the AO. And the GH was large enuff that it would've been a tough carry for a small yote, so it was likely a larger one. So I had evidence a yote was in the AO.
So back to two nights ago. The yote heard me close the coop door and howled. A longer, lower, less frenetic howl than I had ever heard a yote do before. I mimic'd back. That got me a second identical (to his first) howl in reply. I again mimic'd back and I got a third response. I mimic'd back but screwed it up and didn't get to a high enough pitch and got no reply. Nothing.
Went in house got thermal drone came back out and launched. Scanned about for 10m to the East (where I heard the yote, estimated 100yds to the ESE up the hill in a power cut area. Saw nothing moving up there though its 99% solid woods up there for about a square half mile.
Heard two howls from the South, there are about 30 cows, calves and a bull from my neighbors herd down there. So flew down there and started scanning along the creek where the cattle hang. Also surveyed the usual deer in our pastures.
I'll start this video at the point right before I first see the yote. The drone had already tried to take control and go home, telling me I only had 15m left. I regained control. I decided at 5m remaining, I would RTB and I would not go more than 300 meters from my location. I can RTB and land there in under 2 mins.



So I first detect the yote heading North along the road, then I loose him. So I am scanning North to see if he got by me on the road and I pause to better detect motion and nothing. So I retrace my path back South and pick him up moving in the creek bed. There's very little water in the creek bed even though it looks like there is some, but just a few tiny pools. But some hot rocks and cool rocks some of which look like water.
So I track him. I was between 365 and 396 feet above launch point at all times, trying to be high so he can't hear me.
And I don't think he did. He stops twice along his journey down the creek bed. If he was moving away from an active threat he could still hear, I don't think he would stop and sniff around either once or twice. But you'll seem him do it twice. And the camera was looking straight down most of the time, so I was right over head.
I can start to hear the drone over my head below about 300 feet, but up at 400 feet I usually can't.
The video ends when the drone says 5 mins remaining and he takes over. I fight the controls trying to get the drone out of the creek, and manage to get over to the bank, but the drone lands even though I am only 899 feet from home base.
Now the exciting part of the evening begins ! The controller still shows 2m34s remaining on the drone battery, so I want to get out there and find the drone before the battery power dies !
So with armed with N18, the smart controller, flipflops, swimming trucks, tee shirt and airfarce sweater, I head out into the woods !
The weeds in the woods are chest high. I cannot see the ground at all. I encountered steep drop offs both up and down taller than me 10 foot-ish drop offs and I can't see them, I just have to go real slow and feel for them. And "get down in the weeds" to ascend or descend. The smart controller gives me a direction but no numerical distance. It shows my position on the map and the drones position, but no terrain. Just a grey background. The SC shows drone battery at zero, but still gives me a location. Eventually, I find it. And stuff it in an internal sweater pocket and zip up the sweater so I don't have to use a hand to hold the drone.
The drone landed in a tiny clearing on a bunch of weeds. So good soft landing all intact, no damage. Whew!
Decided to RTB by using the creek bed instead of heading back thru the woods. So I head North along the same path the yote had been moving, about 1/2 mile and eventually reach chipped and sealed road and washout bridge. I climb out of creek on pile of rocks beside the washout bridge and then can jog home on the road.
Excitement over, drone recovery successful !
I REALLY need to get a working independently powered signaling device for the drone! I've already lost one of these dang things and they aren't free !!!
But I found this one !!!

==
Ok, back to the yote ...
So, given the significantly different howl (to my ears ... I've heard 1000s of KS yote vocalizations, but only a tiny few MO ones). Was this even a yote ?
Looking around on MO sites, I see the primates cleared the wolves out of MO back around 1900 and since then there's been an average of about 1 wolf shot per decade in MO. And all those were either brought here by primates or migrated here from neighboring states (like Iowa). So, it seems VERY unlikely this could've been a wolf.
Probably it was a olde/larger yote. But maybe also a mixed breed!!??
Well, it has found us. So I'm sure it will be back. I will be closing up the coop before end of dusk going forward ... and alternating with 556 for barnyard patrols. And acquiring a tiny signal generator to attach to the drone to give me longer battery life for the signal, so I'll have time to put on "woods clothes" if It lands in the woods again.
And I'll remember to come home with drone at the 10 min mark instead of waiting for the 5 min mark. It looks like it's programmed to take over and not give back at 5min.


==
==

I had to "fix" the video settings - it should work now !

 

[carbonbased]

So,went out 2 nights ago right at the end of dusk to close chicken coop door and check surrounding electric chicken fence (layered defense, we even have a steel grating fence outside the electric fence - and we have me scanning the AO 2-3 times per night for 30-ish mins per session to pick off the predators as they roll in).
Heard yote howl, for the second time ever here and the second time this month. And some decent sized critter had made off with a ground hog I had just killed a couple of weeks ago, at night, I had planned to move it to the bone pile the next morning. So that alerted me to possible yote in the AO. And the GH was large enuff that it would've been a tough carry for a small yote, so it was likely a larger one. So I had evidence a yote was in the AO.
So back to two nights ago. The yote heard me close the coop door and howled. A longer, lower, less frenetic howl than I had ever heard a yote do before. I mimic'd back. That got me a second identical (to his first) howl in reply. I again mimic'd back and I got a third response. I mimic'd back but screwed it up and didn't get to a high enough pitch and got no reply. Nothing.
Went in house got thermal drone came back out and launched. Scanned about for 10m to the East (where I heard the yote, estimated 100yds to the ESE up the hill in a power cut area. Saw nothing moving up there though its 99% solid woods up there for about a square half mile.
Heard two howls from the South, there are about 30 cows, calves and a bull from my neighbors herd down there. So flew down there and started scanning along the creek where the cattle hang. Also surveyed the usual deer in our pastures.
I'll start this video at the point right before I first see the yote. The drone had already tried to take control and go home, telling me I only had 15m left. I regained control. I decided at 5m remaining, I would RTB and I would not go more than 300 meters from my location. I can RTB and land there in under 2 mins.



So I first detect the yote heading North along the road, then I loose him. So I am scanning North to see if he got by me on the road and I pause to better detect motion and nothing. So I retrace my path back South and pick him up moving in the creek bed. There's very little water in the creek bed even though it looks like there is some, but just a few tiny pools. But some hot rocks and cool rocks some of which look like water.
So I track him. I was between 365 and 396 feet above launch point at all times, trying to be high so he can't hear me.
And I don't think he did. He stops twice along his journey down the creek bed. If he was moving away from an active threat he could still hear, I don't think he would stop and sniff around either once or twice. But you'll seem him do it twice. And the camera was looking straight down most of the time, so I was right over head.
I can start to hear the drone over my head below about 300 feet, but up at 400 feet I usually can't.
The video ends when the drone says 5 mins remaining and he takes over. I fight the controls trying to get the drone out of the creek, and manage to get over to the bank, but the drone lands even though I am only 899 feet from home base.
Now the exciting part of the evening begins ! The controller still shows 2m34s remaining on the drone battery, so I want to get out there and find the drone before the battery power dies !
So with armed with N18, the smart controller, flipflops, swimming trucks, tee shirt and airfarce sweater, I head out into the woods !
The weeds in the woods are chest high. I cannot see the ground at all. I encountered steep drop offs both up and down taller than me 10 foot-ish drop offs and I can't see them, I just have to go real slow and feel for them. And "get down in the weeds" to ascend or descend. The smart controller gives me a direction but no numerical distance. It shows my position on the map and the drones position, but no terrain. Just a grey background. The SC shows drone battery at zero, but still gives me a location. Eventually, I find it. And stuff it in an internal sweater pocket and zip up the sweater so I don't have to use a hand to hold the drone.
The drone landed in a tiny clearing on a bunch of weeds. So good soft landing all intact, no damage. Whew!
Decided to RTB by using the creek bed instead of heading back thru the woods. So I head North along the same path the yote had been moving, about 1/2 mile and eventually reach chipped and sealed road and washout bridge. I climb out of creek on pile of rocks beside the washout bridge and then can jog home on the road.
Excitement over, drone recovery successful !
I REALLY need to get a working independently powered signaling device for the drone! I've already lost one of these dang things and they aren't free !!!
But I found this one !!!

==
Ok, back to the yote ...
So, given the significantly different howl (to my ears ... I've heard 1000s of KS yote vocalizations, but only a tiny few MO ones). Was this even a yote ?
Looking around on MO sites, I see the primates cleared the wolves out of MO back around 1900 and since then there's been an average of about 1 wolf shot per decade in MO. And all those were either brought here by primates or migrated here from neighboring states (like Iowa). So, it seems VERY unlikely this could've been a wolf.
Probably it was a olde/larger yote. But maybe also a mixed breed!!??
Well, it has found us. So I'm sure it will be back. I will be closing up the coop before end of dusk going forward ... and alternating with 556 for barnyard patrols. And acquiring a tiny signal generator to attach to the drone to give me longer battery life for the signal, so I'll have time to put on "woods clothes" if It lands in the woods again.
And I'll remember to come home with drone at the 10 min mark instead of waiting for the 5 min mark. It looks like it's programmed to take over and not give back at 5min.


==
==

I had to "fix" the video settings - it should work now !

Wow, kind of exciting reading through this!

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, we've been gathering up thermal clipons trying to prep for a side by side event. That actually happened Friday night (7 Oct) at Cantankerouses place over in SW MO (about 100 miles WNW of my new place in Ozarks). IIRC 8 people were in attendance during at least part of the evening.
I think we had
3 x Theon ELRs
1 x Theon LR
1 x Theon MR
1 x Steiner C35
1 x Apollo100
1 x Apollo50
1 x Apollo42
1 x Yotester gen2
1 x PVS-27
I spent the whole time out in the field as "the subject" rolling around between 3 groups of cattle (30-ish head per ground) ... rolling under fences climbing over fences ... did some high crawling and even some low crawling. Out between 100yds and 900yds ... letting the "viewing team" take pics and notes about what they could see and not see.
I had my 556(14.5) upper with an atacr 1-8x DMX so they could try to "see the weapon" also.
We also did some "FOV testing" which meant, at 100yds, I would line up on left side of FOV and then step out yards to the right side of FOV and the note taker would note down the results. More on that when the note taker shows up to post
But that gave us a shot at "real world" FOV measurement. For the Theons, we did ELR, LR and MR in that order and each one had about 50% more FOV than the prior one. So, if you are in an FOV intense sort of environment, you might choose the MR, if in wide open, flat, cut fields like we were in, you might choose the ELR, or for a balance between the two, you might choose the LR (and SOK still has some of each in stock, so give us a call, if you are "out of stock" on top notch thermal clipons !
==

Ok, while we're waiting on the "viewing team" to show up ... I will post some "practice pics" I took Wednesday night (5 Oct) of the three theon's.

These first ones are with the LR unit in front of VO 1-10x with the BDC/WD reticle.

On the left a momma with a fawn bedded down, on the right a solitary doe. This is 150yds on 10x on the VO, with the LR.

Same set up looking at IPSC(2/3) at 156yds, unheated steel.

Looking at these, I can tell the reticle is in focus on the field shot, but but for the target shot. And the front end of the LR is not perfectly in focus for either shot. Apologies ! I suck at camera shooting
In the event, I did zero camera shooting for the actual side by side event !!!

==

Here's the MR in front of ATACR 1-8x DMX on 8x

Same deer at 150yds.
You can see some pixels. The reticle is in focus, but the image might not be perfectly in focus on the MR.

==

Same deer at 150yds with NX8 2.5-20x T3 ... 2.5x on day scope with the ELR.

Reticle not in focus (meaning camera not in focus).

This is at about 8x on the day scope ... reticle in focus on this one.

Momma and fawn on left at 12x

A doe on right at 20x chewing (note jaw position - it was moving up and down)

==
Well that's all I got from the practice - more to come when the viewteam (camera guy, radio / note taker guy) show up !! We were using radios to comm between viewing position ( atop a large steel pole awning ) and me in the field.


ok @cantankerous and @Ksracer your turns at bat !!

 

[Ksracer]

First, I want to than Wig and Cantankerous for the amazing opportunity. Trying to look through so much equipment in a short time was a little bit hectic, but I had a blast!

I used my Triggercam to take some pics for the sake of simplicity, vs trying to focus a camera behind a scope for each shot. They aren't as good as some others, but they are a fair comparison between each unit.

I tried to focus on getting some pics with the Theon MR, LR, ELR, and the second generation Bering Optics Super Yoter Clip On at multiple ranges and magnifications.

My goal when I purchased the ELR was long range coyote hunting. Towards the end of the night 3 dogs showed up at 618 yds. The image from the Theon was more than adequate to make that shot. I'm going to estimate that the only thing holding a person back out to 800yds on coyotes would be shooter ability. Unfortunately, we had made all the rifles "safe" before climbing the platform, so I wasn't able to take a shot.

I fully agree with WIG that if you live in a wooded area, the LR would be a better choice. Several people went back and forth between the ELR and the SY-Cii and the general response was "Oh Wow, that's not bad at all" in regards to the Yoter's image.

I've got a bunch of pics I need to sort through, but I'll start with the ones depicting the FOV of each unit. You can see the size of the reticle and count tree tops in the background for a reference. I turned the magnification on the day scope up enough to fill the screen for each one.

 

[cantankerous]

It was a great night!
We had so much going on it was hard to keep up with swapping devices and getting pictures.
I used a digital camera as(compared to a cell phone) it was a lot easier to get an image behind the scope , and now I'm having trouble getting my computer to read the camera card so you may have to wait for pictures, I hope to have them up in the next day or two.

For me the really interesting part of the night was comparing the ELR to a PVS-27 for detection and ability to ID at different ranges.
Wig volunteered to walk down range holding an AR upper so we could view him at different ranges. This was to let us see how far out someone could ID a "weapon".


Our bolt guns had the bolts removed and the ARs used for viewing were uppers only, so all weapons were rendered incapable of firing.

Using the ELR, I was able to identify the upper in Wig's hand out to approx 300 yards. after that the aluminum was too close to ambient temperature to stand out. Using Wig's PVS-27 I was able to ID a "weapon" out to 600.

I was able to find and PID Wig (standing) as a man in the open field with the PVS-27 thanks to a full moon and Wig's Airforce issue sweater which reflected pretty well. He was also wearing Multicam pants, which were much more difficult to see at distance. The Multicam was slightly darker than the surrounding grass, so if I looked closely I could make out Wig's legs.
At 900 yards Wig went into a prone position and he completely vanished from the PVS-27.
If Wig had been dressed completely in the Multicam I would have had a much more difficult time detecting him with the PVS27.

As you probably suspect, Wig was not only easy to find at every distance with the ELR, he was also immediately identifiable as a man as far out as he was able walk as long as he was standing or even in a high crawl position.
When Wig went prone he still stood out but he was impossible to ID.


At one point another Hide member drove my Polaris Ranger with 3 steel plates rigged up in the back. The plates were painted with a metallic silver spray paint and I leaned them slightly up to reflect the cold from the sky. all three of the plates (10 inch, 8 inch, and 4 inch) were easy to see out to approx 600 yards, and I'm confident the ELR gave a good enough image to engage the 4 inch plate at that distance.

We were distracted several times by a pack of at least 5 coyotes (and a probable 6th) that kept coming in to around 600-700 yards North of us. My 8 year old son was out with us, and (using his voice) called the coyotes well enough to get them to stop at around 608 yards (per radius) and challenge bark. Seriously; this kid does a much better job than my electric call! I'll be taking him out hunting with me when the legal nighttime coyote season comes, he'll be running an AR with 100mm Apollo.

Coyotes at that range were immediately identifiable through the ELRs, even when stationary. I did get a few pictures of the coyotes and I'll be uploading them when I get the camera card to work correctly.
My first thermal clip on (Apollo 50mm) wouldn't have given as clear of an image of a coyote at 200 yards.
The ELR was amazing! I'm convinced I would be able to ID a coyote by movement well passed 1000 yards with the ELR.
I did not have time to get the PVS27 on the coyotes.

Also to the North of us was another open field with cattle laying between 1400 and 1500 yards, and a house at 1897 yards (ranged with Radius).
At that distance the cattle were still easy to PID, and judging by the performance of the ELR, and the image it gave of the house, I'm pretty sure I would have been able to detect and ID a person standing in front of the house.

 

[wigwamitus]

Need more pics !!!
@cantankerous
@Ksracer

I would add, my head gear included 14+C5E ... I could PID cattle out to 200 yds for sure with the C5E ... I could detect cattle out to 700-800 yds with the C5E (chinese ecoti). Since I'm now in the Ozarks (vs where I was for past 13 years in KS) ... I've only been able to see with this 14+C5E setup out to 200-ish yds so far. So tonight I could see a lot farther ... 1000-ish yds ... and I thought the combination exceeded my expectations. After 3 hours for continuous use in the field, the C5E was showing "yellow" on the battery indicator. But not sure how long until it would lose power.


I was also able to see laser and illum bouncing off trees at 700-ish yds ... no trees on friendly ground closer.


I'll also add, view team usually reported they could see the upper I had if it was touching my chest, but when I held it up in the air, thermal could not see it.

At one point, I told the view team to stop viewing and said I would move 150yds is a random direction and tell them when to start looking for me, then they would report back when they found me. I moved 150yds NE, stopped and reported in. Both of them reported finding me after 32 seconds. They'll have to give their side of that story ...

More to come ...

 

[cantankerous]

I hope to have pics up in the next day or two. My camera reads the card even if the computer wont . I'm pretty sure I can plug the camera into the computer. Unfortunately I can't work from home so this must wait until I have time.

That being said I'd like to thank Wig, he brought a literal truckload of gear to try out!

 

[Ksracer]

Both of them reported finding me after 32 seconds

It took me 27 seconds to find an ELR and put it on a rifle, and another 3 seconds to power it on.

I was able to find you immediately on the first sweep after all that....lol

 

[stefan73]

Was the PVS-27 one of the "hotrodded" ones with the WP L3 tube in it?

 

[wigwamitus]

2022-10-12
50F
2100-2200
5 MPH W

Goal: Collimate C35

Environment: Cooling off slowly, moon rise when I was out (yote to WNW barked briefly). It "rained" today, but still dry as a bone. No real rain since July and that was after no rain in May-June. Though that was after 2 months of Noah rains that raised lake level 20 foot which locals say never happens

Equipment: 556(14.5), ATACR 1-8x dmx, spuhr 1.5 isms qd, 77gr imi, "steiner" (aka chinese) C35 thermal clipon, rrs.

This phone cam sucks at pics. Its a kyocera (japanese ?) I got it to be a solid outdoor phone and it is that, but its the first and only smart phone I've ever had that sucks at pics this bad. This one takes bad to the next level

Activity: I had confirmed zero earlier in the day, no adjustments made.
Steiner started off pretty well centered but 12 IPHY high. I dialed down 6 clicks twice to get into the ball park, 4th, 5th and 6th rounds were perfect on elevation, but I wound up tweaking back to the left a little. The c35 had been 3 clicks right, out of the box, I wound up taking it back to zero.

Looking in to the goat barn at 40yds on 1.5x

==

IPSC(2/3) steel at 156yds on 8x

==

Deer bedded down back in the woods at 150yds on 8x

==

This one sucks to bad to show ... but showing anyway ... deer up on ridge just shy of 200yds, 8x. Note the reticle is out of focus, so this is a camera issue.

==

I'll try again !!

Summary: The "manual" doesn't say anything about the "menu" except that it exists
So you're on your own to figure out how to collimate, but it was easier than avg. One difference, on most thermals you press the arrow in the "opposite" direction to how you want to move the POI (because you are moving the screen in the opposite direction of the POI). But on the C35 you press the buttons in the direction you want to move the POI, not the direction you want to move the screen. But its more intuitive like this as its more like the way day scopes are "marked".
I ran side by side with armasight apollo42 640(30) and the c35 was clear winner.
For settings, I adjusted the c35 brightness from 50% down to 10%. For contrast I adjusted from 100% down to 50%. I'm not sure those are the best for avg scene conditions, but they did bring out more of a 3D image in the terrain.
More to come !

 

[Glassaholic]

Summary: The "manual" doesn't say anything about the "menu" except that it exists
So you're on your own to figure out how to collimate, but it was easier than avg. One difference, on most thermals you press the arrow in the "opposite" direction to how you want to move the POI (because you are moving the screen in the opposite direction of the POI). But on the C35 you press the buttons in the direction you want to move the POI, not the direction you want to move the screen. But its more intuitive like this as its more like the way day scopes are "marked".

M1ajunkie has a nice video he did setting up the C35 in the Steiner C35 thread, post #629

Night Vision - The Official: Steiner C35 Thermal Clip-on Review and User Thread!

I've shot with mine on six hosts including a piston gun and a 6.5 Creedmoor gas gun with some pretty rowdy vibration, fortunately no such experience. Good to know..... this was on a .308 AR so nothing crazy. Might run this by Steiner for their thoughts, it's rather annoying.

www.snipershide.com

 

[cantankerous]

Was the PVS-27 one of the "hotrodded" ones with the WP L3 tube in it?

It was green phosphorus. I'd like to see how much the difference the WP tube would make.

 

[Ksracer]

Pictures inbound. I will apologize because these are not jaw dropping impressive. They aren't meant to be... Any thermal pic looks good from 37yds away, but I wanted to push the limits. I'm not sure what the "test subject", AKA Wig, was wearing, but it did a good job of masking his heat signature, plus it felt like there was a little humidity blowing through. He was around 400yds if I remember right.
The 20x pics through the LR and ELR look similar, but you can see more shading with the ELR.

 

[Ksracer]

 

[Ksracer]

 

[Ksracer]

 

[Ksracer]

 

[jwramp]

Excellent @Ksracer - just because I love seeing them all at once -

 

[rlsmith1]

It looks like the sensitivity of the SYCii really helps with detail in front of the target?

 

[Ksracer]

It looks like the sensitivity of the SYCii really helps with detail in front of the target?

Yes, there was a period of time where I did think the SY-Cii was picking up more detail. It was after the wind switched and it felt like a little humidity was in the air.

Keep in mind that all of the Eotechs were in base mode with default brightness and contrast settings. The Yoter only offers a brightness adjustment and one other mode.

On my previous range trip, the ELR was picking up unheated steel at 4 and 700yds the the Yoter didn't.

 

[wigwamitus]

2022-10-22
1600-2359
50F
10 MPH S

Goals: Side by side compare of multiple thermal clipons

Environment: Fairly cloudless night, no moon, steady breeze from the South. We were is mostly flat open cut or grazed pastures, cattle in most pastures, 30-40 head each group on average, about 10 acres each pasture on avg.
Our primary viewing position was atop a large steel post (tin covered) awning over a corral, it was about 2- ft up in the air, so it gave good viewing position over several pastures. Cattle visible from about 200-600 yards.

Equipment: Several tripods and rifles and day scopes, in particular, I had an ATACR 1-8x, cantakerous had a revic 4.5-27x (I think).
Thermal clipons included:

Theon: ELR, LR, MR
Steiner: C35
Apollo100

And we had a PVS-27

(also had pvs-14s, c5e, coti, n18)

First, I must apologize, zero of the 60-ish pics I took came out. This phone cam - kyocera has sucqued for almost 2 years now, just about time to "upgrade". Every other phone cam I've had worked fine-ish for thru lens pics, but the kyocera really struggles with the auto-focus.
This issue could've been exacerbated by the fact, that I was mostly using white hot tonight - I usually use black hot - but the view thru the lens with the mk01eb was SPECTACULAR - with factory settings - on the theons - much better than I've been getting at home - and totally UTC-x/xii like and I couldn't believe how good it was - so I tried to take the pics - I took a bunch - as usually that means I get a few that work but alas ... nada ... I post a few so you believe but I was disappointed with the pic results.

However, as disappointed as I was by the pic results, I was overwhelmingly pleased by the side by side viewing. In the conditions we had tonight and with the factory settings, the theon's were at least equivalent to the UTC-x/xii in clarity. The "3D" images were very "hi-def" with cattle noses, eyes, ears, legs, hoofs, tails, bone & muscles on the flanks all standing out with different shades of grey through the full distance and magnification ranges of the optics we were using. 200 to 600 yds on distance ... 1-8x on the MR and LR and 4.5-27x on the ELR.

Ok, here goes the crap
I think this one is the MR in front of the 1-8, on probably 1.5x on the day scope. The cattle are 400-500 ish.

==
And I think this is the LR on the 108 and 8x on the scope, same cattle, same distaces, those structures are at 1k-ish in distance.

==
And BTW, I was real careful with the focus on each clipon. Nucing a bunch, setting day scope magnification to max and bracketing the cattle with the focus ring, and continuing to reduce the size of the focus bracket until I had it right in the center of the bracket. Used that same slow, careful, process with every thermal clipon. No quick "ball park" focusing tonight ... and all the thermal clipons looked GREAT !!!

The C-35 was hanging in there with the theon's surprisingly well, up to about 8x and 300yds, beyond those constraints, it fuzzed up more and more and you pushed beyond those numbers. But for $2700-ish price it still looked danged good !

The Apollo100 was also real good ! The 3D image aspect was especially surprising and impressive. Out to 500yds, it was hanging in there as well.

==

Summary: I think some reasons the images looked so good tonight includes the idea that the hummidity must have been extra low. Even with the wind, I saw zero graininess - and hence zero need to increase contrast.
With the factory settings, the brightness was WAY UP and normally I turn the brightness WAY DOWN on all thermals (to reduce eye fatigue).
And apparently the combination of conditions blended well with all the thermals we had out as well as our mk01ebs. The raw images were the best I've seen since selling both of my UTCs earlier this year.

So, one of my secret purposes for this side by side was to help me decide which two Theon's I want to keep. I purchased an MR and ELR so far, I turn sell either or both of them and get any combination of theons, two ELR, two MR, one LR, one ELR, etc, etc. IDK, I could get any two.
Based on what I saw tonight, I'd be happy with any of them. My new surroundings in SW MO are in the Mark Twain National Forest and most shots will be under 200yds, so the MR makes a lot of sense.

The only remaining question is "Can I hit 4" target consistenty, quickly out to 200yds after running 200yds up to 80%" If I can do that with the MR, I'll keep the MR.
I might still keep the ELR, since, my last 10yrs in KS was so focused on shooting at greater distances and my brain can't let go of that use case

I'll keep trying to get better pics - note there are some better ones several posts back in this thread that I took at my place about 2.5 weeks ago, so we have those ... and also some KSracer took about a week ago also up ^^ there.

More to come ...

 

[Ksracer]

2022-10-22
1600-2359
50F
10 MPH S

Goals: Side by side compare of multiple thermal clipons

Environment: Fairly cloudless night, no moon, steady breeze from the South. We were is mostly flat open cut or grazed pastures, cattle in most pastures, 30-40 head each group on average, about 10 acres each pasture on avg.
Our primary viewing position was atop a large steel post (tin covered) awning over a corral, it was about 2- ft up in the air, so it gave good viewing position over several pastures. Cattle visible from about 200-600 yards.

Equipment: Several tripods and rifles and day scopes, in particular, I had an ATACR 1-8x, cantakerous had a revic 4.5-27x (I think).
Thermal clipons included:

Theon: ELR, LR, MR
Steiner: C35
Apollo100

And we had a PVS-27

(also had pvs-14s, c5e, coti, n18)

First, I must apologize, zero of the 60-ish pics I took came out. This phone cam - kyocera has sucqued for almost 2 years now, just about time to "upgrade". Every other phone cam I've had worked fine-ish for thru lens pics, but the kyocera really struggles with the auto-focus.
This issue could've been exacerbated by the fact, that I was mostly using white hot tonight - I usually use black hot - but the view thru the lens with the mk01eb was SPECTACULAR - with factory settings - on the theons - much better than I've been getting at home - and totally UTC-x/xii like and I couldn't believe how good it was - so I tried to take the pics - I took a bunch - as usually that means I get a few that work but alas ... nada ... I post a few so you believe but I was disappointed with the pic results.

However, as disappointed as I was by the pic results, I was overwhelmingly pleased by the side by side viewing. In the conditions we had tonight and with the factory settings, the theon's were at least equivalent to the UTC-x/xii in clarity. The "3D" images were very "hi-def" with cattle noses, eyes, ears, legs, hoofs, tails, bone & muscles on the flanks all standing out with different shades of grey through the full distance and magnification ranges of the optics we were using. 200 to 600 yds on distance ... 1-8x on the MR and LR and 4.5-27x on the ELR.

Ok, here goes the crap
I think this one is the MR in front of the 1-8, on probably 1.5x on the day scope. The cattle are 400-500 ish.

==
And I think this is the LR on the 108 and 8x on the scope, same cattle, same distaces, those structures are at 1k-ish in distance.

==
And BTW, I was real careful with the focus on each clipon. Nucing a bunch, setting day scope magnification to max and bracketing the cattle with the focus ring, and continuing to reduce the size of the focus bracket until I had it right in the center of the bracket. Used that same slow, careful, process with every thermal clipon. No quick "ball park" focusing tonight ... and all the thermal clipons looked GREAT !!!

The C-35 was hanging in there with the theon's surprisingly well, up to about 8x and 300yds, beyond those constraints, it fuzzed up more and more and you pushed beyond those numbers. But for $2700-ish price it still looked danged good !

The Apollo100 was also real good ! The 3D image aspect was especially surprising and impressive. Out to 500yds, it was hanging in there as well.

==

Summary: I think some reasons the images looked so good tonight includes the idea that the hummidity must have been extra low. Even with the wind, I saw zero graininess - and hence zero need to increase contrast.
With the factory settings, the brightness was WAY UP and normally I turn the brightness WAY DOWN on all thermals (to reduce eye fatigue).
And apparently the combination of conditions blended well with all the thermals we had out as well as our mk01ebs. The raw images were the best I've seen since selling both of my UTCs earlier this year.

So, one of my secret purposes for this side by side was to help me decide which two Theon's I want to keep. I purchased an MR and ELR so far, I turn sell either or both of them and get any combination of theons, two ELR, two MR, one LR, one ELR, etc, etc. IDK, I could get any two.
Based on what I saw tonight, I'd be happy with any of them. My new surroundings in SW MO are in the Mark Twain National Forest and most shots will be under 200yds, so the MR makes a lot of sense.

The only remaining question is "Can I hit 4" target consistenty, quickly out to 200yds after running 200yds up to 80%" If I can do that with the MR, I'll keep the MR.
I might still keep the ELR, since, my last 10yrs in KS was so focused on shooting at greater distances and my brain can't let go of that use case

I'll keep trying to get better pics - note there are some better ones several posts back in this thread that I took at my place about 2.5 weeks ago, so we have those ... and also some KSracer took about a week ago also up ^^ there.

More to come ...

It was a good night for thermals here also. There were a bunch of skunks out back and I was able to quickly PID them with the ELR out to 400+yds. I killed several in the 200yd range and missed one at 370yds. I find myself going back to the default brightness and contrast settings everytime I mess with them. I like this scope more everytime I use it!

 

[jstokes1]

Smacked a big ole yote at 217 yards off hand on a NV stroll last night using the Voodoo S/LWRC 6.8 combo. For its size, I haven't found a more capable thermal to date.

 

[wigwamitus]

Black Friday Sale on ELRs live:

ClipIR-ELR

The worlds best commercially available thermal clip-on offered to the general public. This unit offers 640 core 12um with a 1280 display and a 5.3 degree field-of-view. This offering allows a true 3-20 type optic to make full use of it's optical spectrum. 50 BMG rated -- 10 year warranty period...

strictlyoffensivekit.com

 

[wigwamitus]

Well I think I'm going bananas over here. I finally got a NX8 1-8x DMX I ordered back in April. And I put it on 556(10.3) carbine. Does that make any sense ? Prior to that both of the mk18-ishes had EOTECHs and 3x on risers. Now I've put a LPVO on this one !!

Here in the Ozarks, in the Forest, shots over 200yds are rare. Hecque, actually in the woods, shots over 100yds in the winter are rare, shots over 50yds in the summer are rare.

But, I think with this scope on there, I might be able to hit MOM targets out as far as 500yds which the farthest I've ever seen a shot around here is 488yds.

I still love the DMX reticle, the center dot, even though illuminated, is hard to see in the pic ( I had it turned down low ) ... but I could see it fine for aiming. The 2/3 IPSC steel is at 156yds.

==

THEN I tried putting the ELR on there, another crazy stunt. And it fit ! A real day scope and a long distance thermal clipon - on a 556(10.3) I've never thunk of such a thing before !

Later that night I finally shot it and it worked ! The carbine was a little tight on the RRS and bound a bit when I tried to pan about, but I worked around that. But a little gun can pretend to be a big gun if you work on it hard enuff !

 

[aslrookie]

I had a ATACR 1-8 on a 11.5 for a while. Similar situation on terrain and average shooting distances. I ultimately went back to a Eotech on the 11.5. I will eventually pair it with a G45 magnifier. I always thought the magnification never hurt, but the ATACR made the 11.5 feel very top heavy and lost its advantage of being nimble/light.

However, the setup is legit lol

 

[jstokes1]

Went on a pig hunting venture in the big TX here about a week ago. The weather was dogshit, but all of my kit performed quite well. Smacked a decent amount of hogs and got kills with both the Voodoo S and Voodoo M. Both units performed flawlessly in some really crappy conditions.

 

[wigwamitus]

Austtalia removing hik cameras.

Australia to remove Chinese surveillance cameras amid security fears

It follows moves by the UK and US last year citing concerns that China could access the devices.

www.google.com