Gunsmithing Nightmare gunsmith Northwest Precision Rifles * REFUND RECEIVED

hoguer

hoguer

The Dude
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 26, 2009
1,447
126
Central Valley, CA
#1
So to make a very long story short, I purchased a "new" R700SA build, blueprinted, 8/40 base screws, proof SS barrel, oversized recoil lug, and cerakoted. Rifle was received and placed in the safe for future assembly once the rest of the gear was acquired. It sat there for approx 8 months (I know a long time, but the issues below have no reflection on how long it sat there) once the rifle was assembled it was found to had a off center recoil lug, and a oblong scope base hole.
Northwest Precision Custom Rifles (the seller) was contacted, and he initiated the offer for me to return the rifle for a refund that would be issued upon receipt of the rifle. Rifle was to his door within a week and now everything has gone to shit. He basically says I get my money back when I get it back. My most recent email to him:

Earl,
I have never threatened you. Ive simply been a reasonable person, and remained diligent on following up. Since I contacted you on February 19th, you replied the dame day saying that: "Anyway, I am very sorry for your trouble, and would be very happy, to give you your money back" which I replied that I would like to take you up on that and send it back to you. Your next response was, and I quote: "As soon as I receive it, I will send you a money order".
That was on FEBRUARY 19th.
The rifle was to your door on FEBRUARY 22nd.
It is now May 7th. That means you have had the rifle in your possession for 74 days. That's over two and a half months. I was told to return the rifle for an immediate refund. You have failed to follow through with your promise.
Continuing to follow up on a refund that was owed to me for 74 days is not "rushing you". I have a busy life and work in excess of 60 hours a week yet I have the time to handle my business.
Follow through on your end of the agreement. That's all im asking. I have been MORE than patient."


The "threatened" part he is suggesting is me leaving him a voicemail saying I need the rifle or my money back by the end of the week.

His reply:
"Keep pushing me, and it will be another 74 days......... smart ass!!"

Sooooo

where do I go from here? Call PD in his area and report the rifle stolen?
the rifle/barreled action was about $980 and I just want my money back...

**Update 5/12 and clarification**
sent a final email, next is a certified demand letter:

Earl,
This will be my last attempt to email you requesting that you follow through with the agreement we made to return the rifle for an immediate refund. If I have not received the rifle or a postal money order for the total of $981 in the next 14 days I will be perusing the refund by any legal means necessary.
I'm sorry it has come to this but I have given you ample time to handle this on your own.
Please send the rifle or a Postal Money Order to:
(my contact info here to make sure there is no question he knows where to send it)

The first reply I received from them was a email replying and confirming that he was the actual builder:
"First off, thank you for your interest in this rifle. Please send me FFL info,so I can call to see what is involved in shipping to California. I built this rifle. I am Northwest Precision Rifles. You may pay by options,under "PAYMENT OPTIONS" in my listing, of this rifle."

*Update 5/21*
email response I received after sending the email requesting my rifle back or a refund within 14 days

DO NOT THREATEN ME ANY MORE!!!!!! You had my rifle for how many months? There was nothing wrong with it when I sent it to you, yet you kept it for ever! If the problems were so obvious, what took you so long to return it? You have NO legal grounds in this matter AT ALL!!! YOU do not dictate, my time, or time frame sir. I suggest, you go ahead, and waste as much money as you like, in legal fees. That would be a real dumb ass thing to do, but I have learned in dealing with you, it's very clear, you accept NO responsibility for any of this! All you care about, or think about, is yourself! DO NOT EMAIL ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am currently working on this project, making sure, at my own time, and expense, that you have not damaged this rifle in any way. When I have concluded, all is ok with this rifle, I will gladly, send your money! All you have to do, is look at my feedback on Gunbroker, and Ebay,all 100 % positive feedback! I am not in the business of ripping people off. YOU, just didn't handle any of this correctly, on your end, PERIOD! I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY MORE OF YOUR EMAILS!!! GOT IT?!?!

*Update 9/7*
Earl has been served with small claims papers. He has 20 days to settle or respond before there is a default judgement in my favor. I have not contacted him since our last email exchange. We will see what his response is and if I will be making a trip to Idaho for a trial. I feel very confident in my case and have the original listing and all of the emails I feel are proving his guilt, but I've never had to do anything like this before so we will see what happens. Hopefully he comes to his senses and I get a refund and can be done with this.

**UPDATE 10/16***
I have now officially had Idaho Small Claims rule in my favor with a judgement of $1063 for the cost of the BA and all of the Court fees... now it’s time to see how I can collect!

 
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#5
hoguer said:
So to make a very long story short, I purchased a "new" R700SA build, blueprinted, 8/40 base screws, proof SS barrel, oversized recoil lug, and cerakoted. Rifle was found to had a off center recoil lug, and a oblong scope base hole..
Click to expand...

And the action needed to be replaced because of these two items?
The recoil lug can simply be replaced ( he could buy an oversize lugs if he didn't want to bore another one), and- not sure how the hell you cut an oblong hole with a drill bit- but that can be repaired, as well...

So perhaps I'm missing something here, but why did he want to return/refund instead of just replacing a lug and fixing a scope mount hole?

Are you saying the barrel TENON was cut/turned off-center of the bore?
 
#6
I emailed him asking what his thoughts were on how to handle this, since there were obvious defects in the assembly of the rifle, and he said to return it for a refund. Here are pics that I included in the email to him. It's more a problem that a new "precision" rifle was shipped looking like a high school freshman who can't change a flat tire worked on the rifle
 

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#7
I'm hoping someone could point me in the best direction to handle this legally. The rifle is registered to me in the state of California where I live (it's specifically attached to my name, lovely CA) and I have a feeling i was not going to get a refund "in the next 74 days" even prior to the last message.
Is it time to involve the law? Do I call BTAF and report him because he is a FFL? I don't know what to do. I'm feeling a new Tactical Rifles situation coming on here...
 
#8
I would email him one last time. Give him a couple of choices for the course of action, those being specified by you in that email that will resolve the matter.
Give him a strict deadline to meet whichever option he chooses. And if he does not comply and meet those terms I would proceed with notifying the ATF, your local PD,
His local PD/Sheriff. Attempt as best as possible to avoid oral instructions. Keep records of dates, print and save emails, record names of those you talk to and
their phone numbers. Keep things civil, straight to the point and firm but not threatening, just state facts of what you expect and will do if required.
Once you have to involve the ATF/PD I would publish the Name of the shop you are dealing with for the members of this forum just as an FYI. Not to slander but
to inform us.
This is my opinion only.
Good Luck, I hope you get this resolved quickly.
 
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#9
That's what I'm hearing almost verbatim from a friend in the PD. I just sent him one final email:

XXX,
This will be my last attempt to email you requesting that you follow through with the agreement we made to return the rifle for an immediate refund. If I have not received the rifle or a postal money order for the total of $981 in the next 14 days I will be perusing the refund by any legal means necessary.
I'm sorry it has come to this but I have given you ample time to handle this on your own.
Please send the rifle or a Postal Money Order to:
(my contact info here to make sure there is no question he knows where to send it)
 
#10
Contact the BBB, the ATF, and your state AGs office.......youll get your money pretty damn quick.

Lifes too short to let assholes try and jerk you around
 
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#11
Just a thought, if he does not respond or otherwise acknowledge your email within 24 hours I would print off a copy of the email,
sign it and send it via USPS certified mail to his business. It would be worth the hassle and $ to cover yourself.
 
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#14
Wannashootit said:
And the action needed to be replaced because of these two items?
The recoil lug can simply be replaced ( he could buy an oversize lugs if he didn't want to bore another one), and- not sure how the hell you cut an oblong hole with a drill bit- but that can be repaired, as well...

So perhaps I'm missing something here, but why did he want to return/refund instead of just replacing a lug and fixing a scope mount hole?

Are you saying the barrel TENON was cut/turned off-center of the bore?
Click to expand...

Sir based on the pics Id be interested in your opinion.

Id be upset very much so with the barrel receiver union. The mount hole would be just an extra kick in the nuts, but recoverable.

Your thoughts?
 
#15
hoguer said:
I emailed him asking what his thoughts were on how to handle this, since there were obvious defects in the assembly of the rifle, and he said to return it for a refund. Here are pics that I included in the email to him. It's more a problem that a new "precision" rifle was shipped looking like a high school freshman who can't change a flat tire worked on the rifle
Click to expand...

Well right there is your answer, the poor guy can't send you a refund. He is fucking blind.
 
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#16
pmclaine said:
Sir based on the pics Id be interested in your opinion.

Id be upset very much so with the barrel receiver union. The mount hole would be just an extra kick in the nuts, but recoverable.

Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Hard to tell for me... angles, shadowing...looks like the lug itself is more concentric to the barrel and both are waaay out on the receiver face. Reaaallyy odd looking to me, but maybe guys like Chad above that do a lot more rifles than I do can get a better take on it.

The barrel itself certainly appears to be waay off receiver centerline. You're right about the mount hole, go #10 and fuhgeddaboutit.

It is possible that a defective barrel would cause this- but a fucking blind gopher could tell if a bore were that far out of concentric with the outside of the barrel as soon as it was indicated in the lathe and spun....
And if it were a bad barrel- I presume he would have contacted Proof about it and had them replace it. So, I gotta lean towards "operator error" big time. No way to know if's receiver (single-pointing/oversize threading gone bad), barrel, or both.

Seems I (and everyone else it seems) didn't ask the obvious question- He agreed to refund without argument (getting it is another matter it seems)- so how did HE explain the substandard end product?
 
#17
His reply was that "he got it in trade, bore scoped it and it looked good" when I initially sent the pictures.
I purchased it listed as New on a no reserve Gunbroker auction. He never explicitly stated it was a rifle built by him, I thought it was implied when I purchased it. He then had the
balls after agreeing to the return and me having already sent it to him to start to back pedal and say, it was listed as No Returns on the auction. I can understand No Returns on something that is accurately represented in the listing, but this had no mention of any of the problems and was listed as New so I had no reason to believe there were any deficiency. It's like listing a truck on eBay as new, then when you get it finding it doesn't have a motor in it, and the seller saying to bad so sad I said no returns.
Its a disaster all around. He turned into a complete prick the moment he got the rifle back, suddenly it was like he was doing me a favor by taking it back
 
#18
Wannashootit said:
Hard to tell for me... angles, shadowing...looks like the lug itself is more concentric to the barrel and both are waaay out on the receiver face. Reaaallyy odd looking to me, but maybe guys like Chad above that do a lot more rifles than I do can get a better take on it.

The barrel itself certainly appears to be waay off receiver centerline. You're right about the mount hole, go #10 and fuhgeddaboutit.

It is possible that a defective barrel would cause this- but a fucking blind gopher could tell if a bore were that far out of concentric with the outside of the barrel as soon as it was indicated in the lathe and spun....
And if it were a bad barrel- I presume he would have contacted Proof about it and had them replace it. So, I gotta lean towards "operator error" big time. No way to know if's receiver (single-pointing/oversize threading gone bad), barrel, or both.

Seems I (and everyone else it seems) didn't ask the obvious question- He agreed to refund without argument (getting it is another matter it seems)- so how did HE explain the substandard end product?
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I see that and I wonder has the receiver been set up "off line". Im not a machinst so my layman terms and understanding would fall more in line with the OPs outrage than of someone with knowledge that might see only a minor problem, easy fix. No matter what it is not what I understand the term "blue printing" to mean.

This is a shame.

Sorry you had to post it OP.

Good lesson for buyers and a good lesson for builders to let them know what sets us off.
 
#20
pmclaine said:
Oh, oh posted #19 before I read #18.

OP you have to mention these parameters in the original post or it makes your story look all pissy.
Click to expand...

If a gunsmith listed a rifle here on the hide as new, and you received it like I received this rifle, question him about it,then all of a sudden it comes out that he may not have even build it (and you never thought that a custom rifle builder would be selling someone else's work under their name without a simple disclosure) then they offer an immediate resolution to allow you to return it for a immediate refund upon receipt, then once they get it decide they get to change their mind because they have the upper hand by having your money and rifle, and you wait 80 days with no end in sight and im being pissy? Wow. I guess I don't follow your train of thinking.
 
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#21
I really don't get all of the threads recently that resemble this one and the OP's choice of hiding the offenders info?? He is obviously bending you over, but you feel some need to protect his name? Please let the rest of us know who we need to be avoiding so this doesn't keep happening.

Regards,

Todd
 
#22
I think with the fallout over Tactical Rifles everyone is a little on the cautious side. Even though SH and Spartan were cleared there was thousands of dollars in attorneys fees accumulated in order to get to that point. Once this is coming to an end I won't mind letting it be known. One thing I can say is the smith is not represented, associated or ever even been discussed (as far as I know) here on the hide. He is a one man operation in Washington state that claims to be a "Long Range hunting specialist"
 
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#25
hoguer said:
If a gunsmith listed a rifle here on the hide as new, and you received it like I received this rifle, question him about it,then all of a sudden it comes out that he may not have even build it (and you never thought that a custom rifle builder would be selling someone else's work under their name without a simple disclosure) then they offer an immediate resolution to allow you to return it for a immediate refund upon receipt, then once they get it decide they get to change their mind because they have the upper hand by having your money and rifle, and you wait 80 days with no end in sight and im being pissy? Wow. I guess I don't follow your train of thinking.
Click to expand...

A custom order is....I'm sending you a receiver, a barrel, trigger, stock and I want it built in this manner.....or something like you pull from the Tac Ops menu and buy one of his packages knowing it's all new, or at least, rebuilt to new specs.

Yours sounds like its a gunsmith that does build guns but he may also sell guns, perhaps take guns in trade, you saw something he was selling and made an assumption it was new built.

I spent just under a year dicking with my custom from first getting parts, waiting for a place in line to build, and than going through build.

Im not saying the guy didn't hose you but you missed out on asking some basic questions perhaps at the start. Can you post up a screen shot of the ad perhaps without exposing the builder. I want to see how it was represented.
 
#26
The ones that get me are the ones who don't follow explicit instructions or manifest their irritating idiosyncrasies in their procedures. To my surprise, this last one decided not to moly or Duracoat my barrel as requested, and to red Loctite the muzzle device onto the threads. When I called and asked why, one of his shop staff basically informed me that they didn't want irate customers complaining about baffle strikes and suppressors landing 20 yards uprange. Gee, thanks, I guess?
 
#27
Just went through our emails and the first response I got from him was:
"First off, thank you for your interest in this rifle. Please send me FFL info,so I can call to see what is involved in shipping to California. I built this rifle. I am Northwest Precision Rifles. You may pay by options,under "PAYMENT OPTIONS" in my listing, of this rifle."

So when it was sold to me it was him who built it. There is some great clarification. I'm in contact with GB in an attempt to get the listing copies sent to me. It's over 90 says so it has fallen off their site.
 
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#31
Im really sorry about this. I am a hobby gunsmith with hopes of someday becoming a professional precision rifle gunsmith. When small guys do stuff like this I think it scares people from using a small shops verses a large established shop such as GTR, LRI, or GAP. I hope you get this solved. Also something to use as ammo is if you didn't give him the parts for gunsmithing services,and he bought them and then assembled them, he now has to be a class 7 FFL and needs to pay ITAR, and can no longer go under the class 1 as a gunsmith. He may be in violation of his FFL limitations. I believe you can look up what class of FFL he is. Im no attorney, but this is my understanding of the laws.
 
#32
I think that the length of time between receiving the item and when the issues were reported back would be a huge barrier to getting anything back. Even if the payment had been through a secure service like PayPal or some credit cards, it would be well outside of their protection period.

I don't know much about small claims but my experience of trying to get my money back through the legal system have always been a waste of time. It takes forever and costs a fortune and there is no guarantee the guy could pay up anyway.

As for reporting him to someone, I have never found any law enforcement department that actually takes any meaningful action against on-line scammers. Local police in my state say it has to be reported in the scammers state and the police in that state say it has to be reported in my state. Any federal law enforcement can't be bothered to get a involved for $1,000 etc. USPS say they no longer have the resources to go after scammers involving their postal orders.

Maybe you'll have more luck with it being a firearm. I guess there is the potential for a gun in your name to be used in a crime... let us know if you have any luck and which law enforcement helps you. That info would be helpful to me if you find one....
 
#33
Man this sucks.

As for using small shops. I purposely used a small shop when I had my custom rifle built.

I just like supporting small guys (who do good work). I also had my rifle built in 2 weeks. This includes finding a defiance Deviant and a manners T6A.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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#34
hoguer said:
Thats specifically why I offered that as an option. If I get it back, I can send it into a reputable smith for a "rebuild" and hopefully salvage SOMETHING out of it.
Something is better than nothing.
Click to expand...

If you get it back hit up Marc Soulie at Spartan Precisin Rifles. He's in CA, and obviously has the skill at fixing other smiths' shoddy work. He even has the lawsuit to prove it :rolleyes:
 
#35
bogeybrown said:
If you get it back hit up Marc Soulie at Spartan Precisin Rifles. He's in CA, and obviously has the skill at fixing other smiths' shoddy work. He even has the lawsuit to prove it :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Marc was the first guy I sent pics to. He built my last rifle and we keep in touch. He immediately said he would pull it apart for me, and I said I'm not looking to be the one pulling him into another one of those rifles. I also didn't think this was going to be an issue by the builders immediate offer for me to return the rifle for a refund. Who knows... hopefully I get my money back. If I somehow get the rifle back I just might take it to him
 
#36
hoguer said:
Marc was the first guy I sent pics to. He built my last rifle and we keep in touch. He immediately said he would pull it apart for me, and I said I'm not looking to be the one pulling him into another one of those rifles. I also didn't think this was going to be an issue by the builders immediate offer for me to return the rifle for a refund. Who knows... hopefully I get my money back. If I somehow get the rifle back I just might take it to him
Click to expand...

Good deal. He did my last one as well and we still shoot the shit occasionally. The pictures of his fishing injury were epic.
 
#38
No response to my email on 5/12. I'm waiting for the 14 days I have to expire, then I will be sending a certified letter for proof of receipt with similar terms, as a official notice prior to small claims. Just sitting on my hands hoping he does the right thing
 
#39
Here is a direct copy of his most recent reply, all the way down to include the email I sent last week:


DO NOT THREATEN ME ANY MORE!!!!!! You had my rifle for how many months? There was nothing wrong with it when I sent it to you, yet you kept it for ever! If the problems were so obvious, what took you so long to return it? You have NO legal grounds in this matter AT ALL!!! YOU do not dictate, my time, or time frame sir. I suggest, you go ahead, and waste as much money as you like, in legal fees. That would be a real dumb ass thing to do, but I have learned in dealing with you, it's very clear, you accept NO responsibility for any of this! All you care about, or think about, is yourself! DO NOT EMAIL ME AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am currently working on this project, making sure, at my own time, and expense, that you have not damaged this rifle in any way. When I have concluded, all is ok with this rifle, I will gladly, send your money! All you have to do, is look at my feedback on Gunbroker, and Ebay,all 100 % positive feedback! I am not in the business of ripping people off. YOU, just didn't handle any of this correctly, on your end, PERIOD! I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY MORE OF YOUR EMAILS!!! GOT IT?!?!
From: "Thomas Hogue" <[email protected]>
To: "Earl" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 8:05:06 AM
Subject: Re: Creedmoor


Earl,
This will be my last attempt to email you requesting that you follow through with the agreement we made to return the rifle for an immediate refund. If I have not received the rifle or a postal money order for the total of $981 in the next 14 days I will be perusing the refund by any legal means necessary.
I'm sorry it has come to this but I have given you ample time to handle this on your own.
Please send the rifle or a Postal Money Order to:
Thomas Hogue
* my mailing address and phone number here*
 
#42
Just got a response to my request that I had sent to Gunbroker asking for them to open the listing back up. Here is the item description:
condition: Factory New

Remington short action, with 24 inch medium Palma, Proof Research barrel. Blueprinted action, trued boltface, and lapped lugs. 11 degree crown. This is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. Pacific tool .300 recoil lug. Cerekote in Titanium, bolt left original finish. Put it in a chassis, or stock, and compete, or go hunting!
[Information added 5/2/2016 1:48:35 AM]
Also has 8x40 screws for scope base. Not standard 6x48.
[Information added 5/3/2016 1:02:55 AM]
I should also tell you, this is a 1 in 8 twist barrel.
 
#43
hoguer said:
Just got a response to my request that I had sent to Gunbroker asking for them to open the listing back up. Here is the item description:
condition: Factory New

Remington short action, with 24 inch medium Palma, Proof Research barrel. Blueprinted action, trued boltface, and lapped lugs. 11 degree crown. This is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. Pacific tool .300 recoil lug. Cerekote in Titanium, bolt left original finish. Put it in a chassis, or stock, and compete, or go hunting!



I'm glad you were able to get gunbroker to provide that info. It is hard to say how much it might help you but I would compile a detailed timeline of the transaction and how it went wrong to send to them. It might at least get them to stop accepting listings from him, or perhaps the threat of that would make him more responsive to you.

Click to expand...
 
#45
Why was the rifle left laying around for 8 months? Were you just leaving it be until you got a scope for it or something? The time that elapsed between the time you received it and the time you went to complain is the main thing that will work against you here; I know you weren't dicking around with it with a dremel but its going to be your first hump and his first defense as it will make you look like one of those people that ate the entire steak and then decided to complain about it afterwards.

As far as dealing with him, he comes across as a moron in his emails. Literally. Like low IQ, I decided to fuck around with rifles because I couldn't hold a job for more than 2 months, dumb. Going back and forth with him is only going to result in an internet screaming match. The only thing I'd try for here is to nail him down on a date where his 'review' will finished by. I find it ironic that its taking him this much time to review his own work. That right there says a lot.

I'd contact your State's (and his, are you in different states?) department of professional regulation and find out what their statutes say in regards to good faith returns (you have the email where he stated that if you return the gun, you get a refund, right?). See if they have specific guidelines, time frames, anything you can use. Contact the ATF (fuck be upon them) and find out what guidelines they have in regards to gunsmiths holding firearms too long or doing what he is doing to you - you would not be the first person. If there is a red flag here as far as legality, contact your States Attorneys office as well as the police in the county he is in. Gather all of this info and in the process someone may call/send this retard a letter that may all of a sudden have your money show up.

Otherwise, use all of this info when it comes to a hearing/court. You'll show up with statutes and guidelines he's broken, and he'll show up with a random rant and a hurt feelings defense.

The even better news is, if it does go to court and he shows up, you can punch him in the fucking mouth afterwards.
 
#46
The rifle sat in the safe awaiting all the other goodies it needed (chassis, trigger, scope, etc) I bought it on a whim because it "appeared" to be a good deal on a new, custom barreled action. It wasn't a priority, so it sat until I snagged the extra parts to keep it a "low budget" build.

Once it was assembled with the missing parts, and he defects were found, I simply sent him a email with the pictures, asking him what his thoughts were. He is the one who initially offered the return/refund. He could have told me, it's been 8 months, pound sand. He didn't . I sent it back, and now I'm out a rifle and the money.
 
#47
I don't see how the time frame really affects anything. I am not sure there would be a statute of limitations on defects. But thats neither here nor there. He made another contract with you to return your money, if you return the item. You returned the item, he must therefore return the money in a "reasonable time frame" in most states. You have e mails to show all this, plus you have emails to show, at least to give the impression, he is holding your money hostage because you made him mad. To finish the numb skull thinks you are going to rack up a bunch of legal fees. The thing the pea rattling around in his head hasn't picked up yet, is that with all the evidence he has given you of his wrong doing, he will probably end up paying them. Some states don't allow lawyers in small claims. If you have to travel, add those expenses to the lawsuit. Hell his last e mail asks you to run him up a good legal tab. At least thats the way, I read it.

My favorite TV judge. "Say it, forget it. Right it, regret it."

I didn't look at the time frame or the price of the B.A. But a reasonable timeframe for someone to come up with a couple thousands dollars is key.
 
#49
diverdon said:
Just don't forget that in America winning a judgment and collecting a judgment are two completley seperate things.
Click to expand...

i totally understand that, but now it's a principals issue. To handle things this way is completely unacceptable. I am willing to do what needs to be done to show him what he has done is wrong. A flight from CA to Idaho can be purchased for very reasonable prices usually. I want my money, no doubt. But i want him to know he is wrong just as much.
 
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#50
Wow good luck ever getting anyone to trust this guy again. Before I have anyone do any work for me I check a lot of sources to see how previous customs were handled if they had issues. My though is the $980 worth the bad press and loss of reputation that take years to build???
 
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