not too bad for mid grade ammo

[jbell]

I have been shooting Lapua Center-X for a while now and have been very pleased with it so far. I have never shot a large string and measured all the groups to get an average for X amount of rounds. So last Sunday while I was waiting for the main range to finish with a match I decided to shoot my 22lr on the rimfire range. I had just installed a new scope on my rifle and cleaned the bore (as it was several months with out shooting it and I don't like to let one set too long with out cleaning), so I bore sighted it and shot a few groups.

I was shooting at a measured 50yds (for rimfire benchrest matches), prone with a bipod and sand sock. I was shooting a random lot # of Lapua Center-X (as most lot # that I have tried have all shot well) out of my Sauer 200TR. I shot my cold clean bore and followed it with 4 more rounds for a 5 round group, the cold clean bore shot was about an inch high and the other 4 went into a neat little cluster (that group is at the bottom center of the target). I made a sight adjustment and shot 5 more 5 shot groups from left to right top to bottom. After I finished BM11 showed up so I got up and let him shoot a group (bottom right on the page). We had good conditions little to no wind and pretty warm (mid 80s). This target is nothing special for the rifle ammo combo as I have shot some much better, but rather shows what can be had by just shooting for the fun of it and not really trying too hard. Now this isn't to say I was screwing off as I usually follow as best form as I can, but I wasn't trying to set any records. For what its worth this rifle and ammo combo has shot several 5 shot groups under 0.100" at 50yds.

But over 30 rounds and 2 shooters averaging just under 1/2 moa isn't too bad. I didn't include the cold clean group or the single shot in the target just under the cold clean group.



Here it is with the new scope:

 

[Tempest 455]

Ditto on that. I just last week shot the best group my Savage TRR-SR ever shot with that ammo. A .680" 5 round group at 100 yards. Conditions were near perfect and I was shooting through a can but that's the best it has done and it was the Center X ammo.

 

[bm11]

Not much attention on this thread. Curious- how many .22's out there can average sub half moa at 50? I ask because I think this rifle is somewhat of an anomaly, I think jbell has a bit of a special piece here.

Curious, because my built CZ will NOT shoot this well, will an Anshutz or anything else shoot like this? I don't mean for one freak group, my CZ will spit out a .1 from time to time and .2's pretty frequently (talking at 50 yards,) but won't average sub quarter inch, what other rifles will?

I'm a pretty competitive guy and it drives me nuts that jbell's Sauer shoots so well! It isn't the shooter either, I shot a couple of the groups he posted above and I can consistently hang with him, IF I'M SHOOTING HIS RIFLE. Will a lilja barreled quad shoot like this? Do I need to buy a 40x and have a repeater conversion done? Is the above performance not impressive, and that's why there is only one reply in this thread?

It should be noted again that I shoot with jbell and the above is indicative of average performance of the rifle, and not a fluke. We shot Sunday and the average was in the lower .2's at 50y for all groups shot.

Lets get this discussion going!

 

[mrspradlin]

Not bad at all.
I shoot LAUPA Midas + in my rimfire benchrest rifles. One is a Myers custom action by Stiller Presision Firearms (Viper actions) with a Lilja barrel the other is a worked over CZ452 with a benchmark barrel.
When it comes to .22lr ammo and rifles you can get on brand that works better then other brands and even lot numbers can change the accuracy.
I sent both my rifles down to LAUPA rimfire test center in Mesa AZ and had them run everything they had thru them. The CZ loved SK rifle match and the Myers loved Midas +

 

[Geno C.]

My quad with my longer Rock Creek barrel will usually do about this with SK Std+. It took a couple of boxes to get to this point but it was about 3/4moa from the first group on.

 

[lash]

Well I'm impressed, but then I've been told I'm easily impressed too...

Seriously though, I know that I don't have a rifle that good nor the personal capability to get .22 groups like that at 50 yds. Of course, I just bought my first new .22, a Savage MKII BV and haven't even had it out yet, but if I were to get even close to that on a regular basis, I'd be a happy man.

Good for you jbell!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Great groups and I am sure a great rifle, I don't think it is an anomaly. It is a quality rifle and he has done his homework on ammo.
Don't get too worked up over 50yd groups, especially if you plan to shoot beyond 50 yds. Yes an Anschutz can cut itty bitty bugholes at 50 yds too, again that may trip a lot of people's trigger but it means almost nothing to me and my shooting. It is very handy in a BR match.

 

[Merlin O]

A good trigger makes a real difference. A 5018 in an Anschutz or a Kenyon equipped Win. 52 is considerably easier to shoot well than a stock CZ or Savage....... Lots of factors come into play.

 

[bm11]

Great groups and I am sure a great rifle, I don't think it is an anomaly. It is a quality rifle and he has done his homework on ammo.
Don't get too worked up over 50yd groups, especially if you plan to shoot beyond 50 yds. Yes an Anschutz can cut itty bitty bugholes at 50 yds too, again that may trip a lot of people's trigger but it means almost nothing to me and my shooting. It is very handy in a BR match.

Agreed to an extent, however 50 yards is the most consistent test medium in my opinion as at 100 yards the wind has more to do with it than anything. I have seen this rifle shoot a number of groups in a row measuring in the .4's at 100.

What do I need to do to match this level of performance? Will a quad do it? Will an Anschutz do it? Will a built 40x do it? Or is this rifle a freak of nature?

Keep in mind that these groups were shot prone off a bipod, two different shooters. It easily shot Tenex as tight if not tighter in Sunday when we tested it.

 

[wilecoyote]

What do I need to do to match this level of performance? Will a quad do it? Will an Anschutz do it? Will a built 40x do it? Or is this rifle a freak of nature?

Keep in mind that these groups were shot prone off a bipod, two different shooters. It easily shot Tenex as tight if not tighter in Sunday when we tested it.

Mr.BM11,
I can talk about Anschutz only_Anschutz will do it, scope or irons_ I'm a bad shooter: I can test my low-level shooting with a 40yrs. old 54match,sling/irons/prone,50mts._ in the hands of better shooting friends, under the same conditions,the rifle print his bughole again & again_
tried w.a 36x and bags, br stocked, to test the ammos, NOT the rifle_ That with his 40yrs.old OEM factory barrel, second(?)-hand buyed from a wannabe comp.shooter_ the old 54s of my friends perform in the same way_ Please,understand that I'm not braggin'about "my" rifle, because I have nothin'to brag: it's plainly that one of "these" .22 MUST perform in this way, otherwise it can't leave the Anschutz factory, 40 yrs.ago or today_
I say that in all humblety,but my only regret about Anschutzs is only that I don't have the age to justify the buy & to afford the proper use of a Fortner model_

 

[jbell]

I would like to throw my .02 in here as well as I made the original post. My intentions for posting this was not to brag about my rifle and especially not my shooting ability. It was to point out that mid grade ammo ($10-$12 box) can shoot very well. I have no doubt that a better shooter with a higher grade of ammo and a true target scope could smoke my results with this Sauer.

I too have some time behind Anschutz 1907 and 1913s and 2002 air also some FWB and Walther. I know how these rifles shoot... I just wish they would bring the MSR back with the 54.18

 

[jbell]

Bob, I may have never told you, but find a 54.18 MSR repeater (I think they made both SS and repeater). IMO they are the holy grail...

 

[jbell]

Thanks DFOOSKING, I seriously lucked into it. It is quite the piece of work...

 

[Merlin O]

Oh fuck that....go ahead and brag.

Just looking at that rifle is boner inspiring.

Excellent....still LOL.....

 

[Geno C.]

Brag indeed! When you find a rimfire rifle/ammo combo that shoots amazing and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg there is definitely a reason to get excited.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Brag indeed! When you find a rimfire rifle/ammo combo that shoots amazing and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg there is definitely a reason to get excited.

Uhhh. The ammo may be mid grade but the rifle is rather "arm and leggish". These guns are plenty pricey....I know cause I been lookin'

 

[BigJimFish]

Not much attention on this thread. Curious- how many .22's out there can average sub half moa at 50? I ask because I think this rifle is somewhat of an anomaly, I think jbell has a bit of a special piece here.

Curious, because my built CZ will NOT shoot this well, will an Anshutz or anything else shoot like this? I don't mean for one freak group, my CZ will spit out a .1 from time to time and .2's pretty frequently (talking at 50 yards,) but won't average sub quarter inch, what other rifles will?

I'm a pretty competitive guy and it drives me nuts that jbell's Sauer shoots so well! It isn't the shooter either, I shot a couple of the groups he posted above and I can consistently hang with him, IF I'M SHOOTING HIS RIFLE. Will a lilja barreled quad shoot like this? Do I need to buy a 40x and have a repeater conversion done? Is the above performance not impressive, and that's why there is only one reply in this thread?

It should be noted again that I shoot with jbell and the above is indicative of average performance of the rifle, and not a fluke. We shot Sunday and the average was in the lower .2's at 50y for all groups shot.

Lets get this discussion going!

I agree with you BM11. The below test target came out of my last batch of Kimber 82g's. I shot one box per ammo type with a variety of ammunition to assess the capabilities of the rifles and what they had a taste for. It was also the Laupa center X that blew me away. It is not a sub 1/2 MOA average as with jbell though it is close and it is the best performance I have ever had from a rifle. I have not found a way to get my Anschutz 54, my wifes CZ 452, or any of the other Kimbers to equal this level of performance. I think that a sub 1/2 MOA peice like jbell has is something of a rare bird. All that being said, if your willing to pay for a top tier smith who specializes in rimfire benchrest to put a Lilja or Benchmark barrel in a bedded stock I'm guessing that achieving this is not so hard. Perhaps it is just rare for any factory peice. It is certainly that.

I also agree with bm11 on you yard groups being a better test of a gun. If it is the gun you are trying to rate the wind at 100 as well as the variation in velocity in ammo just complicates things. There is certainly ammo that performs at 50 and not 100 but I have never heard of a gun with this kind of behavior.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

There is certainly ammo that performs at 50 and not 100 but I have never heard of a gun with this kind of behavior.

Whoa there. Don't misunderstand me, I did not say there were guns that perform at 50 but not at 100. I have always advocated matching ammo to the gun and range at which it will be used. That is an ammo issue. Sorry to tell you that you can't evaluate your ammo at 50yds if you plan to use it past 50 yds.

I have missed out on some great long range ammo, because once my regimen was pick the best performers at 50yds, and then take them to 100, 200 etc. I found by accident that sometimes the not so good groups at 50yds, would hide the real performers at 200yds. Environmentals can be weeded out if you pick your days. I will say and continue to stand by my assertion, 50yd groups are a great test for how your rifle/ammo combo, will perform in a BR-50 match.

 

[cjd223]

I do my ammo testing at 100yds. If ammo groups well at 100 then it usually does well at 200. Not every time though. A good lot# to me is one that groups under 1/2" at 100 yds. I have a few that go under 3/8". My three most accurate rifles are 1808/Shilen, 2007/Lilja and a 1411 made in the '70s.

 

[bm11]

Uhhh. The ammo may be mid grade but the rifle is rather "arm and leggish". These guns are plenty pricey....I know cause I been lookin'

Ha, exactly right! This particular example also includes the .308 barrel and bolt as well as the target irons. Jbell got quite a rifle here.

Every time he talks about selling it to fund a different project, I hit him upside the head and call him a moron. Then I pull out my checkbook.

 

[bm11]

I agree with you BM11. The below test target came out of my last batch of Kimber 82g's. I shot one box per ammo type with a variety of ammunition to assess the capabilities of the rifles and what they had a taste for. It was also the Laupa center X that blew me away. It is not a sub 1/2 MOA average as with jbell though it is close and it is the best performance I have ever had from a rifle. I have not found a way to get my Anschutz 54, my wifes CZ 452, or any of the other Kimbers to equal this level of performance. I think that a sub 1/2 MOA peice like jbell has is something of a rare bird. All that being said, if your willing to pay for a top tier smith who specializes in rimfire benchrest to put a Lilja or Benchmark barrel in a bedded stock I'm guessing that achieving this is not so hard. Perhaps it is just rare for any factory peice. It is certainly that.

I also agree with bm11 on you yard groups being a better test of a gun. If it is the gun you are trying to rate the wind at 100 as well as the variation in velocity in ammo just complicates things. There is certainly ammo that performs at 50 and not 100 but I have never heard of a gun with this kind of behavior.

Your target looks like what my CZ will do, on a good day, with Center X. Before that starts to sound boisterous, I'll follow that up by saying that the only factory components left on my CZ are the bolt body and receiver.

 

[6mmRem]

Those are very nice groups indeed ! Why is there never any talk of the Ruger 77/22 ?? They do shoot very well. IMO I like the feel and look better than the CZ's. I own a Hornet CZ and it shoots better than my Browning or Ruger. But not my 22's !! The 77/22 platform is very easy to adjust and parts are fairly cheap. Want a great barrel on a 77/22 put a Clark barrel on. At the moment my VBZ shoots and when I get another chance at the range will see what agg results it will do.
Just wanted to add there are other options.

 

[Geno C.]

I was more meaning that the ammo doesn't cost an arm and a leg, not the initial investment in the gun. Kinda like buying a Trg the hammers with mil surp. As in anything in this sport, there unfortunately is no free lunch.

 

[jbell]

Every time he talks about selling it to fund a different project, I hit him upside the head and call him a moron.

Me being a moron seems to be a rather common topic of conversation with us... maybe there is something to it?

But I am damn glad to have a friend like you to keep me from doing stupid things, like selling the Sauer

 

[Tempest 455]

Have to jump on here. As I mentioned, I had good luck with this ammo as well in the past. I recently just had the best group my rifle ever had at 100 yards.

I did (2) 5 sets of 5 round groups. 5 suppressed and 5 not suppressed. Obviously this was the best group but they were all pretty good. However, suppressed across the board was tighter.

This was the best one. A .689" 5 round group at 100 yards. Was a good day w/ little wind.

I would say this is pretty darn good ammo.

 

[ivanthesane]

Have to jump on here. As I mentioned, I had good luck with this ammo as well in the past. I recently just had the best group my rifle ever had at 100 yards.

I did (2) 5 sets of 5 round groups. 5 suppressed and 5 not suppressed. Obviously this was the best group but they were all pretty good. However, suppressed across the board was tighter.

This was the best one. A .689" 5 round group at 100 yards. Was a good day w/ little wind.

I would say this is pretty darn good ammo.

Read somewhere a while back (pre-intertoob days) that all else being equal, a suppressed weapon will tend to be more accurate because the gas effecting the bullet as it exits the bore is less violent and more consistient

 

[Tempest 455]

Read somewhere a while back (pre-intertoob days) that all else being equal, a suppressed weapon will tend to be more accurate because the gas effecting the bullet as it exits the bore is less violent and more consistient

Yes that was my understanding as well. That's why I did the test. I like to see results for myself.

 

[xring11]

I'm experimenting with this too. This is part of what makes this hobby so much fun

Yes that was my understanding as well. That's why I did the test. I like to see results for myself.