Gunsmithing Nothing better than finding the perfect tooling!

[jonaddis84]

After several years of using AR Warner HSS threading because it was working just fine, I finally decided to see if something better would make a difference. It sure did, finally found the perfect threading setup, at least for me. Im sure the new lathe has a lot to do with it, but the tool is just the icing on the cake.

-CARMEX 3/4" toolholder
-ISCAR IC908 3/8ic inserts. Use both the A60 partial profile for finer threads, and a 16tpi for action threads. I figured you are digging way deeper into the valley with a partial profile than needed on a 16tpi, whereas with 24/28 the partial profile is pretty darn close to the right radius anyway.

Also quite happy with my turning setup now too. Just so happens to also work great for thread reliefs as it leaves a nice 1/64 radius at the shoulder, and the 55* cleans up the back side of threads perfectly also.

-SECO MDJNR toolholder
-ISCAR IC908 DNMG 432

That is all. Just thought Id share incase anyone else is looking for tooling, took me 3 years to find what I really like since I never had much guidance in the tooling area.

308 for my Hellfire action, prebored and threaded ready for counterbore and chamber.

 

[ugsly]

Looks good Jon did you modify the jaws on your chuck or buy them that way, they look like they would work really well.

Casey

 

[jonaddis84]

I just had them wire EDM'd the other day. 3/8" brass rod pressed in there. Sure is nice not having the soft pads fall down into the sump every time. I cant take any credit though, saw it in a picture of Gradous' setup.

 

[wtopace]

+1 on the soft-jaw style setup, that's a great idea!

 

[chipsfan]

Do you run a flood coolant with that?

 

[cgarb]

Insert threading is the only way to fly. I don't know if you run the same speed as before but you can run way more speed with carbide and the finish will improve even more.

 

[jonaddis84]

[MENTION=26793]chipsfan[/MENTION] , I have tried flooding it with my chambering oil, but threading at 370+ rpm sure makes a mess flinging oil all over the place. It seems to work just as well just brushing Vipers venom on in between passes.

 

[cgarb]

Try mikeocut we use it at work for tapping and threading. Its thick like STP and stays on the part or tap.

 

[Straight Shooter]

I'm glad you finally did something with that chuck. For the life of me I don't see how you kept from springing barrels trying to overcome 1+" long laws. Why not use a thin little spider chuck so you can do shorter barrels? You would gain about 3" more room with a spider. For lube I just fill my mustard bottle from the sump with my Ridgid extreme stainless cutting fluid and put it on manually before each pass. I still don't see the fascination of trying to perform like a cnc machine and cut threads at a zillion rpm. I use Shars inserts and my threads turn out glass smooth at 100 to 200 rpm, and at that speed still don't need to cut into a relief. This makes for lots of support to keep the lug from moving. My customers always seem far more concerned with quality than how many barrels I can fit in a day.

 

[jonaddis84]

I'm glad you finally did something with that chuck. For the life of me I don't see how you kept from springing barrels trying to overcome 1+" long laws. Why not use a thin little spider chuck so you can do shorter barrels? You would gain about 3" more room with a spider. For lube I just fill my mustard bottle from the sump with my Ridgid extreme stainless cutting fluid and put it on manually before each pass. I still don't see the fascination of trying to perform like a cnc machine and cut threads at a zillion rpm. I use Shars inserts and my threads turn out glass smooth at 100 to 200 rpm, and at that speed still don't need to cut into a relief. This makes for lots of support to keep the lug from moving. My customers always seem far more concerned with quality than how many barrels I can fit in a day.

I think you're confusing me with someone else, I never had long pads between the chuck and barrel.

So you can thread a tenon for a defiance without a relief? I'd love to see that.

I have a short spider, I prefer the 4-jaw even if I have to put an extension on the barrel to use it.

I don't see what your fascination is with trying to make guys who like to thread fast look bad? If you want to advertise for your business by trying to make others sound bad why don't you just become a sponsor?

 

[Straight Shooter]

You are right Jon, my apologies. I just went back to the thread I was thinking about and reread it. It was indeed someone else's setup. Not yours. 8/29 "Chatter on barrel threads" You just shared it. Again, until now I thought it was someone else's barrel you were fixing in that picture. Sorry for my misunderstanding.

I regularly barrel Defiance and Bat without tennon thread relief. The actions have plenty of relief unless they have changed them in the last few weeks. Same thing on muzzle brakes. No relief on the barrel. You have seen my threads. I use a DRO and thread right up to an almost sharp stop.

I never solicit. This is the gunsmith hangout. I wish the gunsmith section was restricted to licensed smiths only. That is part of the reason I almost never venture off the gunsmith section is I already have more than I can do. When I take food breaks, I like seeing what other guys are up too and helping where it looks needed. It's also the main place I watch for new products and ideas. I appreciate your sharing the info on the inserts. I have grown to depend on them for accurate threading.

Why would a paid sponsor who is soliciting, post their work in the gunsmith section? I understand asking and sharing the tech or getting professional opinions of your work. That's what I'm here for. If I was paying to advertise here, I would be splashing work all over the commercial sales, bolt action, group buy and picture sections. Where the actual users are. I don't even know what else is here on SH as I go directly here and don't have time to be just looking around off topic. When I'm on my time I spend it with family or playing with my drag race car. If I ever get slow at work I would advertise here for sure though but it would not be in the gunsmith section.

My signature was only for the sake of other gunsmiths. (Most gunsmiths are not going to buy a rifle from me.) I get calls all the time for advice which I freely help anyone any way I can. Really, tattling to the mods? I would have removed it myself if I was posting outside the gunsmith section. I have been here 8 years and never been a complaint before.

The speed thing was not directed at you. I should have made that clearer. It was late and the wife was hounding me to get some sleep so I blasted that post out without really paying my best attention. Again not at you. Your commitment to quality is clear. Not trying to make anyone look bad. It's just a symptom I exhibit (related to my terminal OCD complicated with early onset anal retentive) when I see new guys (not you) making it hard on themselves trying to go so fast and then compromising the job to make the big speeds possible. I would have never took this up with the thought of trying to maximize profits by running my lathe in high gear. For example my flush system was built to help ensure quality and make that job easier. Nothing to do with speed. If I was really interested in speed I would turn my phone off.

 

[mcfred]

I wish the gunsmith section was restricted to licensed smiths only.

Why?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Wow! That was some serious pompous shit spewed out there...

 

[chipsfan]

I don't see what your fascination is with trying to make guys who like to thread fast look bad? If you want to advertise for your business by trying to make others sound bad why don't you just become a sponsor?

I never quite understood it either. If you aren't doing it for money, take your time. If you are, there is something said to being quick and turning out quality work. I believe I read a post where straight shooter stated he blocks out eight hours to fit a barrel. At $300 that's an absolute bargin. Doesn't seem like a great way to run a business.

 

[MDM]

If it was for pros only then there wouldn't be much of an audience to cast spells of voodoo and black magic lathe dust on to.

Beautiful threads by the way.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

"Nothing better than finding the perfect tooling!"

I once knew a dude who was a perfect tool ...


... just adding some levity , and that work does look really nice !

 

[wtopace]

Wow, this thread really derailed. To get back to the OP's intent a little, I had a similar experience earlier this year. Finally found a CNMG 331 indexable insert that I really really liked paired with a beefy 80 degree toolholder that works perfect for turning and facing.

I scored a killer deal on an Ebay auction of 100 inserts (all assuming that they were actually going to work), check out http://www.horizoncarbide.com/pdfs/Grade_Comparisons.pdf and look at the grade comparison for VC101. I am able to run at the SFM that my 12x36 Grizzly can do and get great results the entire time. Best purchase of my machining life.

On a side note, I chose to thread around 200 RPM because it is the slowest speed that I can get a really nice looking result. I'm not looking to get crazy amounts of work completed per hour. I'm not trying to emulate a CNC with my little manual machine. I simply get the best results at that speed and once you get used to the rhythm, its really easy to engage / disengage the half nuts without any problems.

 

[Geno C.]

I use the exact same inserts to thread on my little clausing 100 series and it leaves beautiful threads in everything I have tried. A gunsmith buddy of mine gave me one to try a few years ago and I have been in his debt ever since

 

[fastshooter03]

Does your toolholder have changeable seats?
I know tpi is prob mostly 16 but if you need to do coarser or finer you might need to change the helix angle of the insert to have correct side clearance.
Most toolholders are set to 1.5 deg which is good from 1.0 to 2.0 deg range. To figure out what you need for Helix Angle, use this calculation:
20/(tpi x dia)
For Example: 20/(16tpi x 1")= 1.25 Ha
20/(13tpi x .5")= 3.07 Ha

Just FYI---Have Fun!

Nick

 

[Shanerbanner10]

Being someone who knows nothing about machinist and how to barrel an action other than the extreme basics. I find the gunsmithing threads very interesting. I am an petroleum engineering major; I think it may be the numbers, tolerances, how single point/cut threads are cut (not sure if the terminology is correct there), barrel tenons, headspacing, etc etc etc. more than anything that amaze me. The 0.001-2 is kinda mind blowing. Very cool stuff.
As the stupid guy pulling the trigger, one day I would really like to learn how to work a lathe, understand the skills, and gain the knowledge to chamber, thread and install a barrel.

 

[bohem]

Nice job, Jon. I still haven't tried the inserts yet, though I have several barrels to fit including another for myself so I'm going to give them a try on my barrel first just to be sure.

Glad you got the threading sorted to where you're happy. I like the jaws. I'm still doing it the "hard way" with 3/16" copper wire wrapped on the shank.

 

[Mgordon]

Why?

No such thing as a licensed Gunsmith. There is no governing bodies to qualify or certify gunsmiths. You can hang a sign and start up " Joe's super custom tactical sniper rifle custom shop" and have zero experience.

Mark

 

[LRI]

No such thing as a licensed Gunsmith. There is no governing bodies to qualify or certify gunsmiths. You can hang a sign and start up " Joe's super custom tactical sniper rifle custom shop" and have zero experience.

Mark

And for good reason imo. The logic behind it is traceable to the 2nd Ammendment. Imagine if some government entity wanted to suddenly state that all gunsmiths are required to be certified in order to work. Where's the curriculum?What's the qualifying standard? It could easily be manipulated/orchestrated in such a manner that no one qualifies.

What happens then when you are caught "working" on a gun at home? Say you buy items as innocuous as a new scope or pair of flush cups. Your not legally able to install them. Suddenly your a criminal.

Slippery slope...

 

[STR]

No such thing as a licensed Gunsmith. There is no governing bodies to qualify or certify gunsmiths. You can hang a sign and start up " Joe's super custom tactical sniper rifle custom shop" and have zero experience.

Mark

First congrats on finding something that works great for you. The best tool sure makes it worth using, verses just the right tool.

Second, I too feel I have to comment on the above statement of this should be reserved for "licensed gunsmiths". WTF is a licensed gunsmith? One that went to a two year program and got an associates degree? One who poccesses an FFL? A combination of both, plus a blessing from a State agency? Truth is, when it comes to Precision Rifle Building which is what is most discussed on this sites gunsmith section, the best are often self taught or learned from someone who already knew how. I'm no "licensed gunsmith", and never have been, but that didn't keep me from learning to and build my fair share of damn good shooting, and looking rifles.

The next thing is that I could care less if you pay or don't pay to be on this site as a business. However, anytime a smith mentions that "his customer" this or that, he just let everyone looking for a smith know that he's a business, and as far as I'm concerned, you're advertising. If I were a paying/contributing sponsor on here, then I would certainly have an issue with it. Guys that pay do so to come here and compete for business by showing off their skills and comment on issues that show what they know.

Who does it hurt??? This site for one, and the ones who pay to openly advertise. Anyone wanting advertise for free, join YouTube. It work just fine.

 

[STR]

And for good reason imo. The logic behind it is traceable to the 2nd Ammendment. Imagine if some government entity wanted to suddenly state that all gunsmiths are required to be certified in order to work. Where's the curriculum?What's the qualifying standard? It could easily be manipulated/orchestrated in such a manner that no one qualifies.

What happens then when you are caught "working" on a gun at home? Say you buy items as innocuous as a new scope or pair of flush cups. Your not legally able to install them. Suddenly your a criminal.

Slippery slope...

AMEN!!!! We dont need any more fucking regulation!

 

[Mgordon]

I agree, last thing I would like is for the Government to have more programs with regulations. In my opinion, if one were to want some type of organization, it would be a guild or something along those lines.

Mark

 

[jonaddis84]

What, no Obamasmithing?

 

[jasonk]

My lathe says "gunsmith" right on it....am I qualified to post in this thread?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

My lathe says "gunsmith" right on it....am I qualified to post in this thread?

fuck yes....same as anything that says "tactical" on it....it must be bad ass!

 

[bohem]

There is a "guild" and it takes a lot more than a field/tactical rifle to get accepted to it. Guild builders are also extraordinarily expensive because they just don't fit barrels en masse, people wait years for hand built rifles and they are exquisite pieces of art just as much as they are rifles. The only one around here that I'm aware has even attempted to get into the Guild is here Jered Joplin and last I heard he was in the middle of the lengthy process.

That doesn't mean that a great rifle must come from a guild builder, that's far from the case, but it does exist.

Functionally we have something similar already with the word of mouth that comes from so many shooters with cameras and internet access to talk about and post their rifles from anyone. Around here we all know to beware of something attached to TR.net and that's because of the historical threads, Google, and the way folks relay experiences good and bad.