Yep.
and then on creepbook they posture "gee, isn't that a shame" when what the majority really means is I don't care as long as you don't mess with my shit and don't take my gimmes
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Oh hell here we go, NRA just annouced......
- Thread starter 2ndamendfan
- Start date
Yep.
and then on creepbook they posture "gee, isn't that a shame" when what the majority really means is I don't care as long as you don't mess with my shit and don't take my gimmes
The rallying cry of a nation of riflemen.
I'm about ready to melt my lapel button and send it back.
It's not what they are banning today. It's why they are banning it and what that will lead to tomorrow. Allowing the ban is agreeing that there is an "acceptable" cyclic rate. It's saying that firearms are ok to a point. Today the rate is enhanced semi auto. Tomorrow it is regular semi auto. Next year it could be any action aside from a single shot.
I could care less about the bumpstock, it's junk. The problem is by banning or even acknowledging what weapon was used the officials are making it appear that the device was the problem not the psychopath that used it. I also worry about the precedence that this creates. That is the problem with our country today, we have become a nation with no accountability. Just look at the security breeches that happen with no repercussions. My fear is that it will not end with the bumpstock, whatever is used next time will be next on the chopping block. For selfish reasons I wouldn't mind if devices that simulate FA were taken off the market, it would probably help increase the value of a few of my NFA items but even at that it is not worth it to me and I disagree with the NFA to begin with but that is another topic. On a side note, I agree with a lot on here that we (as a country) should stop using the names of people who commit these atrocities. When I was in the academy we were not allowed to mention the names of turds who had murdered officers. They don't deserve to be remembered, they don't deserve a name.
I'm far from a conspiracy theorist, really, so I don't believe for a second these shootings were orchestrated by the democrat underground to thwart HPA or SHARE from going to a floor vote. Could those have been ulterior motives on the shooters? Sure, but I don't see the dems giving any marching orders. They're more cunning than that, like coyotes.
As for bump stocks though, hmm... How about this speculation: Obama's BATFE gave them the thumbs up as being technically legal knowing damn good and well it was only a matter of time until something like this went down, thus giving them the ability to not only go after bump stocks, but after NFA type weapons and devices all together. Now even the grounded thinker I am could see that one, if not at least in a deliberate role, but in a back of the mind "Just wait until shit goes down with these...". I seriously think this was intentional on that part, and the past administration was dumbfounded that it didn't come up while they still held the White House and could actually do serious damage by law. It was a setup, through and through.
I'm ardently on the side of 2A means EVERYTHING is allowable for citizen ownership, at the same time I'm a stickler for following the letter of the law and never push the envelope on it, maintaining my rights are far too important to me and my family. But when bump stocks came out I knew they would be trouble, I even think I said as much here on the Hide years back. We all knew, or at least could assume, that it was a matter of time. Well, it's happened and now we need to be in damage control mode. I hate that the NRA is skirting the issue by saying "they need to be reviewed again", that's a copout, but I'm not resigning my Patron-Life membership over it. I'm looking at the big picture here.
Public opinion is heavy on the side of getting rid of the things, even many of us in the shooting realm were pretty shocked they got a thumbs up from ATF. If the Republicans were to stand strong against any sort of ban on them, they would get trounced in midterms the same way dems did following the '94 AWB. It would be a real effective marching cry for the left, and I then really believe another leftist whacko would go out on a martyrdom shooting spree with one just to give an even bigger rallying cry to take both sides of Congress wholesale. As much as I hate to say it, they're playing it smart to make moves to ban them. As soon as it came out the shithead wasn't using illegally modified weapons I knew the jig was up on bump stocks, anyone who didn't was fooling themselves. But...
They had better also make moves prior to the midterms to pass SHARE and National Reciprocity. I want those same "blue dogs" to go party line on those bill votes, because there's a lot of blue seats that sit in red regions. They need to force the votes on those, let them show their voting populace their true colors, and strengthen the conservative hold on Congress. Speaker Ryan is a bitch, I just hope he's a calculating bitch.
As for bump stocks though, hmm... How about this speculation: Obama's BATFE gave them the thumbs up as being technically legal knowing damn good and well it was only a matter of time until something like this went down, thus giving them the ability to not only go after bump stocks, but after NFA type weapons and devices all together. Now even the grounded thinker I am could see that one, if not at least in a deliberate role, but in a back of the mind "Just wait until shit goes down with these...". I seriously think this was intentional on that part, and the past administration was dumbfounded that it didn't come up while they still held the White House and could actually do serious damage by law. It was a setup, through and through.
I'm ardently on the side of 2A means EVERYTHING is allowable for citizen ownership, at the same time I'm a stickler for following the letter of the law and never push the envelope on it, maintaining my rights are far too important to me and my family. But when bump stocks came out I knew they would be trouble, I even think I said as much here on the Hide years back. We all knew, or at least could assume, that it was a matter of time. Well, it's happened and now we need to be in damage control mode. I hate that the NRA is skirting the issue by saying "they need to be reviewed again", that's a copout, but I'm not resigning my Patron-Life membership over it. I'm looking at the big picture here.
Public opinion is heavy on the side of getting rid of the things, even many of us in the shooting realm were pretty shocked they got a thumbs up from ATF. If the Republicans were to stand strong against any sort of ban on them, they would get trounced in midterms the same way dems did following the '94 AWB. It would be a real effective marching cry for the left, and I then really believe another leftist whacko would go out on a martyrdom shooting spree with one just to give an even bigger rallying cry to take both sides of Congress wholesale. As much as I hate to say it, they're playing it smart to make moves to ban them. As soon as it came out the shithead wasn't using illegally modified weapons I knew the jig was up on bump stocks, anyone who didn't was fooling themselves. But...
They had better also make moves prior to the midterms to pass SHARE and National Reciprocity. I want those same "blue dogs" to go party line on those bill votes, because there's a lot of blue seats that sit in red regions. They need to force the votes on those, let them show their voting populace their true colors, and strengthen the conservative hold on Congress. Speaker Ryan is a bitch, I just hope he's a calculating bitch.
"It's nothing short of a miracle that those stocks made it past a review by the ATF."
And that happened under the Obama administration's ATF...
And that happened under the Obama administration's ATF...
A little history, courtesy of NPR, of all places, for the kids, about the last great NRA sell-out:
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...-decades-old-gun-ban-thats-still-on-the-books
Put simply, NRA Wayne is a traitorously duplicitous bitch.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...-decades-old-gun-ban-thats-still-on-the-books
Put simply, NRA Wayne is a traitorously duplicitous bitch.
better watch Trump, hey just gave him and every dick sucking republocrat the cover they need to do a whole new NFA, your friend is becoming your enemy. These muther fukers can help but lose.
Greg, I seem to remember you sticking up for McCain on here not too long ago. Whats up with the double standard of second (or more) chances?
I can guarantee you we wind up in the streets if Trump tries to inveigle the Left with any more concessions on 2A. Hope y'all got warm clothes and snow smocks
The NRA. Just caved. Again. They took our money and they just kissed Feinstein's ass. Again.
My membership is up for renewal. In a pig's eye it'll get renewed. Ever.
Done, and done.
Greg
My membership is up for renewal. In a pig's eye it'll get renewed. Ever.
Done, and done.
Greg
Yeah, Life Member here. It's like getting a tattoo and then being stuck with a reminder of a woman you should have avoided in the first place.
McCain got his second chance, gladly given. He pissed it away.
There's no double standard here. If this was the first time we stood up for the NRA and they pissed on our shoulders and called it rain, it might be. But it's not anything like the first time.
They keep re-electing La Pierre and he keeps kissing Feinstein's ass. Nothing changes but the weather report. Same rain, different context, same result; something else goes away for shooters, it no longer even matters what it is this time.
Hell, I think bump fire stocks are useless, worse then useless, but what the hey. It;s just another trading chip, given away and nothing ever gained in return.
La Pierre must think we're all morons, just going along watching it trickle away every time the newsies get to howling for another gulp the American gun owners' blood. Every time Feinstein gets that look again, like easy money.
This one of his pet morons just left the fold. Any takers?
Hillary doesn't need to kill the NRA, La Pierre's doing fine at that all by himself.
So tell me, the NRA trades bump stocks, what to we get in return? Or is that too ugly a question to pick up and answer. What did we get for those other trading chips they went 'all in' with? Bupkis on rye. same as always.
Greg
There's no double standard here. If this was the first time we stood up for the NRA and they pissed on our shoulders and called it rain, it might be. But it's not anything like the first time.
They keep re-electing La Pierre and he keeps kissing Feinstein's ass. Nothing changes but the weather report. Same rain, different context, same result; something else goes away for shooters, it no longer even matters what it is this time.
Hell, I think bump fire stocks are useless, worse then useless, but what the hey. It;s just another trading chip, given away and nothing ever gained in return.
La Pierre must think we're all morons, just going along watching it trickle away every time the newsies get to howling for another gulp the American gun owners' blood. Every time Feinstein gets that look again, like easy money.
This one of his pet morons just left the fold. Any takers?
Hillary doesn't need to kill the NRA, La Pierre's doing fine at that all by himself.
So tell me, the NRA trades bump stocks, what to we get in return? Or is that too ugly a question to pick up and answer. What did we get for those other trading chips they went 'all in' with? Bupkis on rye. same as always.
Greg
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Remember? The NRA endorsed Harry Reed. Remember the NRA sold us out in 86. How skillfully deceptive. The NRA is in the process of slitting is own throat. The NRA is dividing its members as we speak. Go ahead fuckers I have been done with you since 86 when you sold me out. Its already over but the crying. JOIN GOA. They don't compromise.
My Wife, my children and I are life members. I'm damm proud of them and the NRA. Without us I believe Hillary would be president. You should be proud too.
Proud that they fucking caved in '86? Proud that they've caved in again? Sorry, that's Fudd shit: "Go ahead, take away the only alternative that the commoners have to approximate a LMG. It isn't as if we haven't successfully infringed upon the Second Amendment before, even if original intent was to establish basic parity between military and civilians in light arms. We'll just be happy that we get to keep our bolt action rifles, shotguns, revolvers, and single-column semiautomatics."
They keep on coming back and taking more and more from us. Where does it stop? Right here, if we have the will. Now get with it or get the fuck out of the way.
im a life member also......and generally im proud to be one.........however that doesnt mean the isnt NRA is without its faults........and it doesnt mean we cant express our disagreements with the NRA, especally when they pull shit like this, and throw gun owners under the bus, just to appease some Liberal fucks.
today its a bump stock........tomorrow its 100round mags........then its echo triggers.......then its 60 round mags...........then its triggers under 1lb......then its 30 round mags.........then its semi auto rifles.......then its 10 round mags........then its bolt action rifles.........then its a complete ban on firearms.
its death by a thousand papercuts
look at the mess were in now......im sure back in the day, theyre were some fudds sitting around and saying "well if we just give them machine guns, silencers, SBR.....theyll leave the rest of us alone".........
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Do you really think that if they ban Bump fire stocks that they are going to lighten up on full auto laws....WTF Can you please send me a free sample of the shit your smoking.....lol That's like saying "I don't care if they ban 6" knives as long as they don't go after 8" knives.
I see where you coming from. I think part of the issue is that the NRA has a ton of members who are more hunters than gun owners. On the local radio the last few days it has been nothing but the following. "I am a gun owner and I don't see the need for that kind of stuff" Oh fuck do I hate the word "need". Or this gem " I am a gun owner and I have never heard of a Bump Stock until this week" . My thought is WTF, where have you been. Obviously the caller owns guns, but he is not a "gun owner".
So the NRA is getting a shit ton of calls from it's hunting members who are scared shitless that the government will want/take more. So the spineless are caving because that is how they think the same as in '86, and the same as in '94 at least they won't take my hunting rifle. Which luckily more and more is AR based.
I can not fucking believe how many friends who I considered fellow "gun owners" I have had to talk "off the cliff" this week.
Personally GOA has proven many times to have bigger teeth.
05OCT2017 GOP leaders say no action will be taken on gun legislation
Trump has called the Sunday night shooting at an outdoor music festival an "act of pure evil" and declared the nation would unite behind the survivors. Asked about gun laws, the president said, "We'll be talking about gun laws as time goes by."
20JAN2017 ATF White Paper - Options to Reduce or Modify Firearms Regulations (by BATF&E #2 Ronald Turk)
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3455293/ATF-White-Paper-Options-to-Reduce-or-Modify.pdf
highlights:
ATF is the only Federal law enforcement agency with a primary mission that directly involves an Amendment to the United States Constitution.
Thus, our actions and policies are appropriately subjected to intense review and scrutiny. This paper serves to provide the new Administration and the Bureau multiple options to consider and discuss regarding firearms regulations specific to ATF.
These general thoughts provide potential ways to reduce or modify regulations, or suggest changes that promote commerce and defend the Second
Amendment without significant negative impact on ATF’s mission to fight violent firearms crime and regulate the firearms industry.
This white paper is intended to provide ideas and provoke conversation; it is not guidance or policy of any kind. ATF’s enforcement and regulatory efforts are focused on reducing violence and increasing public safety. Positive steps to further reduce gun violence through enforcement or regulation are extremely important but are not the focus of this paper.
16 items of note (random from #13 below after 2 final paragraphs).
There are many regulatory changes or modifications that can be made by or through ATF that would have an immediate, positive impact on
commerce and industry without significantly hindering ATFs mission or adversely affecting public safety. There are also areas where
adjustments to policy or processes could improve ATF operations. Alleviating some of these concerns would continue to support ATF’s
relationships across the firearms and sporting industry, and allow ATF to further focus precious personnel and resources on the mission to
combat gun violence. In addition to these points of discussion, it is vital for ATF to find resources to refresh aging technology and
systems that support law enforcement and the firearms industry. Functionality at ATF’s Martinsburg facility and other areas has been
severely hampered by outdated technology and systems that negatively impact ATF’s ability to provide services and information.
#
13 Pending ATF Regulation Regarding FFL Records Retention (20 years): ATF has a regulation pending at DOJ to increase the requirements for
FFLs to retain records INDEFINATELY. The current standard is 20 years, and records older than 20 years can be
destroyed.
2 Armor Piercing Ammunition: ATF has regulatory authority to classify what is and is not armor piercing (AP) ammunition.
Continued inaction on these requests poses significant litigation and REPUTATIONAL RISKS to ATF. ATF can readily mitigate these risks by
using the criteria established in the framework to process and approve many of the applications, while leaving the 5.56 “green tip” AP
ammunition exemption intact.
Moving forward with approval of these applications is consistent with the statutory goal of protecting the public and law enforcement
because, consistent with the statutory exemption, the projectiles involved are not associated with criminal use, but instead are clearly
designed and intended for hunting and sporting purposes ...
If decisional restrictions were removed, ATF could readily apply drafted standards for reviewing AP ammo requests while leaving the 5.56
“green tip” AP ammo exemption intact. Many of the industries’ pending requests could be decided in a timely manner, meeting
both statutory requirements and safety concerns within the law.
my favorites:
5 Firearm Arm or Stabilizing Brace: Manufacturers have produced an arm brace or stabilizing brace which is designed to strap a handgun to a
forearm to allow a disabled shooter to fire the firearm. Many at ATF are concerned about manufacturing processes continuing to push the boundaries between a Gun Control Act (GCA) and an NFA gun, ATF has a relatively consistent history of what crosses the line between GCA '68 and NFA firearms with which to draw from, and still maintains the ability to exercise good judgement with future requests based upon the firearm’s individual style.
6 Reissue a New Sporting Purpose Study: Since the sunset of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004, the use of AR-15s, AK-style, and similar
rifles now commonly referred to as “modern sporting rifles” has increased exponentially in sport shooting. Many concerns from the firearms
industry could be re-examined through the publication of a new Sporting Purpose Study along with an updated Imports Branch Guide (can be made available to the public).
7 Creation of a Database of Agency Rulings: ATF lacks a consistent internal database to maintain and readily access private letters and ruling. The public also has no direct access to public rulings in a manageable format. The inability to access these rulings can create inconsistent agency interpretations of agency guidance. ATF can create a retrievable database for internal use that includes access by the public for open rulings.
14 Expanding Permissive Use of NICS Checks by FFL Holders: Standard pre-employment background checks frequently do not reveal that a person
is firearms-disabled. A key aspect of this proposal is that it would be entirely elective; if the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), ATF and others all concurred with this slight expansion of the use of NICS, there would be no mandate that licensees perform a NICS check on all employees.
15 Need for an ATF Confirmed Director: Since moving from the Department of Treasury to the DOJ in 2003, ATF has had only one Senate-
confirmed Director. The agency needs a presidentially nominated, Senate-confirmed Director who has the support and backing of the Administration to lead ATF. This will enable the agency to be fully in sync with leadership, and maximize the agency’s potential regarding priorities, budgets, and support.
16 Old Regulations Under Review for Possible Removal or Amendment: Below is a list of the firearms and explosives regulations that are currently under review. They are likely no longer applicable (or portions of which are no longer applicable), and may be removed as part of a final rule to remove expired regulations. 26 items listed a-z
Of Interest:
a. 478.40– Assault Weapons ban
b. 478.40a– prohibition language for assault weapons
c. 478.57(b) and (c)– assault weapons and large capacity magazines
d. 478.92 (portions)– AP ammo and large capacity magazines
e. 478.116 (portions)– importing large capacity magazines
f. 478.119– importing large capacity magazines and feeding devices (belts, drums, strips...)
g. 478.132– records keeping for large capacity feeding devices sold to law enforcement
8 Silencers: Current Federal law requires ATF to regulate silencers under the NFA. ATF has devoted substantial resources in attempts to
reduce processing times, spending over $1 million annually in overtime and temporary duty expenses, and dedicating over 33 additional full-
time and contract positions since 2011 to support NFA processing. Despite these efforts, NFA processing times are widely viewed by
applicants and the industry as far too long, resulting in numerous complaints to Congress.
Since silencers account for the vast majority of NFA applications, the most direct way to reduce processing times is to reduce the number of
silencer applications. In light of the expanding demand and acceptance of silencers, however, that volume is unlikely to
diminish unless they are removed from the NFA. While DOJ and ATF have historically not supported removal of items from the NFA, the change
in public acceptance of silencers arguably indicates that the reason for their inclusion in the NFA is archaic and
historical reluctance to removing them from the NFA should be reevaluated.
Silencers are very rarely used in criminal shootings. Given the lack of criminality associated with silencers, it is reasonable to conclude that they should not be viewed as a threat to public safety necessitating NFA classification, and should be considered for reclassification under the GCA.
Trump has called the Sunday night shooting at an outdoor music festival an "act of pure evil" and declared the nation would unite behind the survivors. Asked about gun laws, the president said, "We'll be talking about gun laws as time goes by."
20JAN2017 ATF White Paper - Options to Reduce or Modify Firearms Regulations (by BATF&E #2 Ronald Turk)
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3455293/ATF-White-Paper-Options-to-Reduce-or-Modify.pdf
highlights:
ATF is the only Federal law enforcement agency with a primary mission that directly involves an Amendment to the United States Constitution.
Thus, our actions and policies are appropriately subjected to intense review and scrutiny. This paper serves to provide the new Administration and the Bureau multiple options to consider and discuss regarding firearms regulations specific to ATF.
These general thoughts provide potential ways to reduce or modify regulations, or suggest changes that promote commerce and defend the Second
Amendment without significant negative impact on ATF’s mission to fight violent firearms crime and regulate the firearms industry.
This white paper is intended to provide ideas and provoke conversation; it is not guidance or policy of any kind. ATF’s enforcement and regulatory efforts are focused on reducing violence and increasing public safety. Positive steps to further reduce gun violence through enforcement or regulation are extremely important but are not the focus of this paper.
16 items of note (random from #13 below after 2 final paragraphs).
There are many regulatory changes or modifications that can be made by or through ATF that would have an immediate, positive impact on
commerce and industry without significantly hindering ATFs mission or adversely affecting public safety. There are also areas where
adjustments to policy or processes could improve ATF operations. Alleviating some of these concerns would continue to support ATF’s
relationships across the firearms and sporting industry, and allow ATF to further focus precious personnel and resources on the mission to
combat gun violence. In addition to these points of discussion, it is vital for ATF to find resources to refresh aging technology and
systems that support law enforcement and the firearms industry. Functionality at ATF’s Martinsburg facility and other areas has been
severely hampered by outdated technology and systems that negatively impact ATF’s ability to provide services and information.
#
13 Pending ATF Regulation Regarding FFL Records Retention (20 years): ATF has a regulation pending at DOJ to increase the requirements for
FFLs to retain records INDEFINATELY. The current standard is 20 years, and records older than 20 years can be
destroyed.
2 Armor Piercing Ammunition: ATF has regulatory authority to classify what is and is not armor piercing (AP) ammunition.
Continued inaction on these requests poses significant litigation and REPUTATIONAL RISKS to ATF. ATF can readily mitigate these risks by
using the criteria established in the framework to process and approve many of the applications, while leaving the 5.56 “green tip” AP
ammunition exemption intact.
Moving forward with approval of these applications is consistent with the statutory goal of protecting the public and law enforcement
because, consistent with the statutory exemption, the projectiles involved are not associated with criminal use, but instead are clearly
designed and intended for hunting and sporting purposes ...
If decisional restrictions were removed, ATF could readily apply drafted standards for reviewing AP ammo requests while leaving the 5.56
“green tip” AP ammo exemption intact. Many of the industries’ pending requests could be decided in a timely manner, meeting
both statutory requirements and safety concerns within the law.
my favorites:
5 Firearm Arm or Stabilizing Brace: Manufacturers have produced an arm brace or stabilizing brace which is designed to strap a handgun to a
forearm to allow a disabled shooter to fire the firearm. Many at ATF are concerned about manufacturing processes continuing to push the boundaries between a Gun Control Act (GCA) and an NFA gun, ATF has a relatively consistent history of what crosses the line between GCA '68 and NFA firearms with which to draw from, and still maintains the ability to exercise good judgement with future requests based upon the firearm’s individual style.
6 Reissue a New Sporting Purpose Study: Since the sunset of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004, the use of AR-15s, AK-style, and similar
rifles now commonly referred to as “modern sporting rifles” has increased exponentially in sport shooting. Many concerns from the firearms
industry could be re-examined through the publication of a new Sporting Purpose Study along with an updated Imports Branch Guide (can be made available to the public).
7 Creation of a Database of Agency Rulings: ATF lacks a consistent internal database to maintain and readily access private letters and ruling. The public also has no direct access to public rulings in a manageable format. The inability to access these rulings can create inconsistent agency interpretations of agency guidance. ATF can create a retrievable database for internal use that includes access by the public for open rulings.
14 Expanding Permissive Use of NICS Checks by FFL Holders: Standard pre-employment background checks frequently do not reveal that a person
is firearms-disabled. A key aspect of this proposal is that it would be entirely elective; if the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), ATF and others all concurred with this slight expansion of the use of NICS, there would be no mandate that licensees perform a NICS check on all employees.
15 Need for an ATF Confirmed Director: Since moving from the Department of Treasury to the DOJ in 2003, ATF has had only one Senate-
confirmed Director. The agency needs a presidentially nominated, Senate-confirmed Director who has the support and backing of the Administration to lead ATF. This will enable the agency to be fully in sync with leadership, and maximize the agency’s potential regarding priorities, budgets, and support.
16 Old Regulations Under Review for Possible Removal or Amendment: Below is a list of the firearms and explosives regulations that are currently under review. They are likely no longer applicable (or portions of which are no longer applicable), and may be removed as part of a final rule to remove expired regulations. 26 items listed a-z
Of Interest:
a. 478.40– Assault Weapons ban
b. 478.40a– prohibition language for assault weapons
c. 478.57(b) and (c)– assault weapons and large capacity magazines
d. 478.92 (portions)– AP ammo and large capacity magazines
e. 478.116 (portions)– importing large capacity magazines
f. 478.119– importing large capacity magazines and feeding devices (belts, drums, strips...)
g. 478.132– records keeping for large capacity feeding devices sold to law enforcement
8 Silencers: Current Federal law requires ATF to regulate silencers under the NFA. ATF has devoted substantial resources in attempts to
reduce processing times, spending over $1 million annually in overtime and temporary duty expenses, and dedicating over 33 additional full-
time and contract positions since 2011 to support NFA processing. Despite these efforts, NFA processing times are widely viewed by
applicants and the industry as far too long, resulting in numerous complaints to Congress.
Since silencers account for the vast majority of NFA applications, the most direct way to reduce processing times is to reduce the number of
silencer applications. In light of the expanding demand and acceptance of silencers, however, that volume is unlikely to
diminish unless they are removed from the NFA. While DOJ and ATF have historically not supported removal of items from the NFA, the change
in public acceptance of silencers arguably indicates that the reason for their inclusion in the NFA is archaic and
historical reluctance to removing them from the NFA should be reevaluated.
Silencers are very rarely used in criminal shootings. Given the lack of criminality associated with silencers, it is reasonable to conclude that they should not be viewed as a threat to public safety necessitating NFA classification, and should be considered for reclassification under the GCA.
I have no interest in a bumpfire stock. That said, if we throw in the towel on this and agree they could or should be banned, than we're blaming a piece of plastic for what a sick fuck did. It will be used to beat us over the head the next shooting, but it will be regarding mags or simi-auto or whatever. Throwing a crumb to a lion that is intent on eating you is not helping your case. FWIW, a man with bolt action rifle, a good optic and some competence could have easily killed as many. You going to be willing to throw in the towel on them when that happens?
I don't like this....
6 Reissue a New Sporting Purpose Study: Since the sunset of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004, the use of AR-15s, AK-style, and similar
rifles now commonly referred to as “modern sporting rifles” has increased exponentially in sport shooting. Many concerns from the firearms
industry could be re-examined through the publication of a new Sporting Purpose Study along with an updated Imports Branch Guide (can be made available to the public).
How about...
6. Create a study for Defense against Tyrannical Government Purposes and ensure that the public has access to firearms organic to the current carry of Infantry arms 'in common us" of the military.
6 Reissue a New Sporting Purpose Study: Since the sunset of the Assault Weapons ban in 2004, the use of AR-15s, AK-style, and similar
rifles now commonly referred to as “modern sporting rifles” has increased exponentially in sport shooting. Many concerns from the firearms
industry could be re-examined through the publication of a new Sporting Purpose Study along with an updated Imports Branch Guide (can be made available to the public).
How about...
6. Create a study for Defense against Tyrannical Government Purposes and ensure that the public has access to firearms organic to the current carry of Infantry arms 'in common us" of the military.
Is this not where ALL of your AmeriYank gun laws came from? This type of attitude? Correct me if I'm wrong, the 2nd Amendment states "Shall NOT be infringed".... but along the lines, for almost a century,,, individuals and groups have been "giving in on a few little things..." to the point where ya'll have HOW MANY GUN LAWS?
Really? Do you REALLY want to 'give in a little'?
Again, where is it stated that Republicans are the cause and/or responsible for this catastrophe? How about the Democrats being responsible, because of the Mental Illness? How about pushing for a law banning Mental Illness? Just think of all the people hurt/killed in vehicle accidents each day, let alone year.... and how many would be saved simply because of that? Lay the actual fault at the feet of the Democrats. Just as viable, don't you think?
This past afternoon at the VFW, I ended up biting a good friends head off about gun control.
He pretty regularly comes out with this same BS sermon about AR's, "Them guns are only made for one purpose, and that's to kill people".
He's actually a pretty nice guy, and at first, maybe eight or ten times, I just kept my peace. Then, a few times, I simply disagreed. Eventually, I argued the point seriously, with at least some effort to use reasonable logic.
He's never even acknowledged that there might be another view besides his own.
Then, yesterday, one of us started ragging about this bump stock issue, and how they oughta be this, they oughta do that, and once again, my friend starts preaching his same old crap.
I told him off, about how he was preaching political propaganda at the VFW club, where politics is not allowed, and with good reason. I further informed him that I had an AR or two myself, that I wasn't even considering killing anyone with them, and that every time he spouts that warm spit he's accusing me and any other AR owner of being latent murderers. i told him to knock that shit off, once and for all, because a lot of folks, his friends included, are genuinely offended by that drivel. At that point, his Wife chimed in that maybe this conversation should just stop. I told her that was a really good idea, stood up, placed my nearly full first cup of Coke on the bar, and went home.
This tragedy in Las Vegas is absolutely atrocious, no arguing the point. The anti's are out demanding their way again, as they always do at such times. They are simply ghouls with an agenda. They recognize, rightly, that sentiments are running really hot at such times, and they strike, just like good ghouls should always do. They go into full hypocrisy mode and recategorize everything they think might be in some way relevant to the tragedy as unsupportable. They throw the whole same bag of crap at the wall, praying that this time, once again, something will stick.
It's bad enough that the newsies, Liberals, and the Rinos all jump on their bandwagon, nodding heads and getting all agreeable and such about the process.
But occasionally, too occasionally, the NRA gets weak in the knees and curries their favor. It's simply another case of the NRA sleeping with the enemy.
It's usually about something that might be questionable in the context, and it's trivialized for public consumption, too.
Get this straight folks, where Gun Control and the Second Amendment are concerned, there are no trivialities.
There is only a concerted, unrelenting cadre of gun haters, fully committed to advancing their grail quest of the incremental, total and permanent elimination of privately held guns by any and all mean possible, including misrepresentation, outright lying, back room deals, and hypocrisy foremost. Political careers exist solely because of this carefully, deliberately concocted conflict.
And now the NRA is in on the act. Personally I'm not so sure it's such a new thing for them, either. In any case, get a good look at them right now, because their true colors are on display.
When they do this, they are fueling the same growing intellectual (and gut level) divide that's been growing steadily inside this Nation for scores of years and is now fully ripe for serious conflict. What they are playing around with is growing beyond the political stage.
I think we're seeing an ominous transition in it infancy, and the NRA's duplicitous behavior right now is serving as at least part of an unintentional(?) trigger.
Watch out folks, this situation has already gotten ugly. I think that it's gonna get worse before it gets better, and that this time around, it will likely never actually ever get better. Some folks are starting to believe there's nothing left to lose. I hope they're wrong, but regardless, they do incredibly stupid things when that's what they genuinely believe..., maybe things a lot like what just happened in Las Vegas.
Greg
He pretty regularly comes out with this same BS sermon about AR's, "Them guns are only made for one purpose, and that's to kill people".
He's actually a pretty nice guy, and at first, maybe eight or ten times, I just kept my peace. Then, a few times, I simply disagreed. Eventually, I argued the point seriously, with at least some effort to use reasonable logic.
He's never even acknowledged that there might be another view besides his own.
Then, yesterday, one of us started ragging about this bump stock issue, and how they oughta be this, they oughta do that, and once again, my friend starts preaching his same old crap.
I told him off, about how he was preaching political propaganda at the VFW club, where politics is not allowed, and with good reason. I further informed him that I had an AR or two myself, that I wasn't even considering killing anyone with them, and that every time he spouts that warm spit he's accusing me and any other AR owner of being latent murderers. i told him to knock that shit off, once and for all, because a lot of folks, his friends included, are genuinely offended by that drivel. At that point, his Wife chimed in that maybe this conversation should just stop. I told her that was a really good idea, stood up, placed my nearly full first cup of Coke on the bar, and went home.
This tragedy in Las Vegas is absolutely atrocious, no arguing the point. The anti's are out demanding their way again, as they always do at such times. They are simply ghouls with an agenda. They recognize, rightly, that sentiments are running really hot at such times, and they strike, just like good ghouls should always do. They go into full hypocrisy mode and recategorize everything they think might be in some way relevant to the tragedy as unsupportable. They throw the whole same bag of crap at the wall, praying that this time, once again, something will stick.
It's bad enough that the newsies, Liberals, and the Rinos all jump on their bandwagon, nodding heads and getting all agreeable and such about the process.
But occasionally, too occasionally, the NRA gets weak in the knees and curries their favor. It's simply another case of the NRA sleeping with the enemy.
It's usually about something that might be questionable in the context, and it's trivialized for public consumption, too.
Get this straight folks, where Gun Control and the Second Amendment are concerned, there are no trivialities.
There is only a concerted, unrelenting cadre of gun haters, fully committed to advancing their grail quest of the incremental, total and permanent elimination of privately held guns by any and all mean possible, including misrepresentation, outright lying, back room deals, and hypocrisy foremost. Political careers exist solely because of this carefully, deliberately concocted conflict.
And now the NRA is in on the act. Personally I'm not so sure it's such a new thing for them, either. In any case, get a good look at them right now, because their true colors are on display.
When they do this, they are fueling the same growing intellectual (and gut level) divide that's been growing steadily inside this Nation for scores of years and is now fully ripe for serious conflict. What they are playing around with is growing beyond the political stage.
I think we're seeing an ominous transition in it infancy, and the NRA's duplicitous behavior right now is serving as at least part of an unintentional(?) trigger.
Watch out folks, this situation has already gotten ugly. I think that it's gonna get worse before it gets better, and that this time around, it will likely never actually ever get better. Some folks are starting to believe there's nothing left to lose. I hope they're wrong, but regardless, they do incredibly stupid things when that's what they genuinely believe..., maybe things a lot like what just happened in Las Vegas.
Greg
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I you want a cheap garbage Chinese knife, the NRA is for you. If you want a free magazine preaching to the choir, the NRA is for you. I you want to endorse shitbags like Harry Reid, the NRA is for you. if you want to pay an organization to erode your rights, the NRA is for you.
How about this? instead of re-upping with the NRA, use the link to join GOA. They don't compromise.
How about this? instead of re-upping with the NRA, use the link to join GOA. They don't compromise.
Never seen a GOA commercial, survey,poll, news article,panel discussion,endorsement....who are these mythical creatures? J/k as a patron member of the NRA, I don't agree with them on this, I let them know. I would not want them to be on the same side as these democrat rat fucks. And they are not look at what they said sober once. And away from your keyboard.i swear some of you must sit down to pee.
^^^ This. THIS is where all the crap is coming from. Because a hug and some lithium and everyone can go out and prance among us.
Once upon a time, mental illness was considered witchcraft... they were drowned.
You were batshit crazy? Ostracized from the tribe.
Danger to society? Padded cell.
But along come the 1970's and Patch Adams and all of a sudden a few pills and a caring society and the unstable, dangerous and criminally predatory are good happy voters. Give them a Prozac and they will happily live among us. Until they don't.
Always said those Canuckians were smart.... Because "The Nailer" just it it right on the head.
Cheers,
Sirhr
GOA has a newsletter. GOA sends out post cards you can mail to legislators. Phone numbers to call etc. No they don't spend their money on commercials or flashy magazines to thumb through. They don't have the cashflow that the NRA has. They also do not compromise on the Second Amendment. They don't give an inch. All I am saying is if you feel the NRA is not representing you GIVE YOUR MONEY TO SOMEONE WHO DOES!
This ^^^^^^^^^
I have been much happier with my GOA membership than my NRA. But that goes with out saying.
reading all your thoughts on the NRA...evidently i am among like minded folks.
i have watched them endorse anti gun canidates through the years over Pro gun canidates. fact. i have also watched them endorse anti gun legislation...and i havent seen anyone mention the 92ish clinton assault weapon ban yet....they signed off on that shit, too. cowards.
then there is the issue of the fancy gun clubs that they build....and to my mind, members should have access to; but oh no! those are for the special people.
i'm not a member. they'll never get a dime from me.
my time, money and effort is spend introducing new shooters. once you educate a person on a given subject, it's pretty hard to bullshit them. that's the approach i take.
i do trucly appreaciate listening to you all unleash....but i have a pro-active challenge for you. fine someone that isnt into shooting. take them out shooting. educate them. And do it ASAP.
i have watched them endorse anti gun canidates through the years over Pro gun canidates. fact. i have also watched them endorse anti gun legislation...and i havent seen anyone mention the 92ish clinton assault weapon ban yet....they signed off on that shit, too. cowards.
then there is the issue of the fancy gun clubs that they build....and to my mind, members should have access to; but oh no! those are for the special people.
i'm not a member. they'll never get a dime from me.
my time, money and effort is spend introducing new shooters. once you educate a person on a given subject, it's pretty hard to bullshit them. that's the approach i take.
i do trucly appreaciate listening to you all unleash....but i have a pro-active challenge for you. fine someone that isnt into shooting. take them out shooting. educate them. And do it ASAP.
Ummm... I guess I see a little different end game than most.
The BATFE has already made a ruling that bump stocks are legal. There is nothing for the NRA to defend, they are LEGAL!!
All the NRA did was to decline to stand and fight in place in the highly emotional and tension filled post shooting moments. Rather they deferred to the leftist agency that made them legal to begin with.
In so much as there are in reality only 2 ways that things can be changed.
1.) By BATFE re-evaluation of their previous ruling, which with any government agency will take months and months, followed by a public hearing. By the time a public hearing takes place emotions will be much cooler. If at that time the NRA and concerned citizens don't like what the BATFE ultimately decides that public hearing gives them a chance to punch above their weight and get it over turned like we have done with past rulings.
2.) The other option is to pass a congressional order banning said items. The left doesn't have the power to do this without republicans rolling over. Even if they did get republicans to go along, they would still have to OVER TURN the BATFE ruling. The last part is important as the only way for congress to over turn a previous ruling is by defining that the BATFE no longer has the necessary capability to make decisions on what is legal and what isn't. The left would essentially be doing a devaluation of their own agency that is designed to do little more than to restrict 2A rights. Those damn "opinion letters" that flip-flop monthly, weekly or even daily would no longer exist... that would be terrible, huh?
Both above situations can be highly impacted by public feedback from our little communities and the NRA.
So it appears to this guy that the NRA is not giving up any of our 2A rights. They simply aren't taking a black eye in the public view when there is nothing to be gained by it... Just my humble opinion...
The BATFE has already made a ruling that bump stocks are legal. There is nothing for the NRA to defend, they are LEGAL!!
All the NRA did was to decline to stand and fight in place in the highly emotional and tension filled post shooting moments. Rather they deferred to the leftist agency that made them legal to begin with.
In so much as there are in reality only 2 ways that things can be changed.
1.) By BATFE re-evaluation of their previous ruling, which with any government agency will take months and months, followed by a public hearing. By the time a public hearing takes place emotions will be much cooler. If at that time the NRA and concerned citizens don't like what the BATFE ultimately decides that public hearing gives them a chance to punch above their weight and get it over turned like we have done with past rulings.
2.) The other option is to pass a congressional order banning said items. The left doesn't have the power to do this without republicans rolling over. Even if they did get republicans to go along, they would still have to OVER TURN the BATFE ruling. The last part is important as the only way for congress to over turn a previous ruling is by defining that the BATFE no longer has the necessary capability to make decisions on what is legal and what isn't. The left would essentially be doing a devaluation of their own agency that is designed to do little more than to restrict 2A rights. Those damn "opinion letters" that flip-flop monthly, weekly or even daily would no longer exist... that would be terrible, huh?
Both above situations can be highly impacted by public feedback from our little communities and the NRA.
So it appears to this guy that the NRA is not giving up any of our 2A rights. They simply aren't taking a black eye in the public view when there is nothing to be gained by it... Just my humble opinion...
"...the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law. The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations...."
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017...int-statement#
the NRA is calling for "additional regulations" on the 2A..........what message do you think thats sending to its members, especially considering the NRAs checkered past.
the NRA could have simply said nothing....but instead they publicly came out in support of not just the ATF taking a second look.....but at the prospect of subjecting them to potential bans.
it is the NRA villainizing an object, instead of placing the blame on the shooter, which is what they should be doing.
Banning bump stocks = moving the goal post on the definition of full auto. Per the BATFE semi auto means one pull of the trigger results in one shot. Auto means one trigger pull, multiple rounds. By changing this, they can further erode all positions related to "Assault Weapons"
EXACTLY. They will seek to redefine per rate of fire, as opposed to how rate of fire is achieved. Use your belt loop? You just manufactured an auto weapon, felony, 10 years jail and goodbye gun rights......
I do think this can only be achieved legislatively however. The NRA’s statement gives Republicans cover to that end....
Make no mistake, this is a war of attrition. The endgame? Just look to California where you can no longer buy ammo by mail or without a background check. Reasonable gun control??? Yea I just waited a year to put a muffler on my rifle....
These anti-2Aers don’t hide their endgame and we have prime examples of their swelling territory. We here in Wyoming pass Constitutional Carry and think we are winning, while in places like California they have fired a massive hole in our boat and people think that moving to another part of the boat is actually solving the problem.
So they ban bump stocks...... Then the next mass shooting with an AR 15 or AK variant, they will point to that precedent as a reasonable course of action. Ban the item the killer used.......
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And Feinstein admitted no laws insofar as gun laws would have prevented it
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dianne-feinstein-talks-to-face-the-nation-after-las-vegas-shooting/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dianne-feinstein-talks-to-face-the-nation-after-las-vegas-shooting/
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