Advanced Marksmanship Ok guys WTF is sympathetic squeeze referring to?

[TheGerman]

I've seen it mentioned multiple times lately and I think it has something to do with not tensing your shoulders up prior to firing your rifle, but never really got a full explanation as to what it is.

I google it, and it gives me a ton of negligent discharge videos/stories, so I'm doubting its that.

What is it?

 

[tnichols]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but in my background as a pistol guy, it's when you are asking both hands to do two different things. Dominant hand is driving the pistol while asking the support hand to pickup something heavy, open a door, etc...while poor trigger discipline is being used i.e. finger "in" covering the trigger face. Hence, your Google searches turning up AD's/ND's.

Curious to here others hers thoughts on this.

 

[corey4]

As somewhat of a pistol guy myself, it means when you are banging away on the trigger (fast uspsa style), the other fingers on the same hand are acting in the same manor.

Edit:
Max Michel has a video somewhere about trigger control and grip. He explains in much better detail than i do. I'm on my phone and I'm not real handy with these stupid smart phones. I'll try to find it later tonight on a real computer.

 

[TheGerman]

As somewhat of a pistol guy myself, it means when you are banging away on the trigger (fast uspsa style), the other fingers on the same hand are acting in the same manor.

Edit:
Max Michel has a video somewhere about trigger control and grip. He explains in much better detail than i do. I'm on my phone and I'm not real handy with these stupid smart phones. I'll try to find it later tonight on a real computer.

When I see it mentioned, its mentioned along with people saying their shoulders are too tense or they are somehow muscling the gun in some way. I dont think it has to do with the trigger.

 

[Whiskey 2-1]

When I see it mentioned, its mentioned along with people saying their shoulders are too tense or they are somehow muscling the gun in some way. I dont think it has to do with the trigger.

I have not seen it mentioned in this manner in classes. Usually when I or others I know refer to it it refers to an unintentional motion of one part of the body due to the motion of another part. This could be changing grip pressure when pulling the trigger, torquing the grip, poor control of the rear bag. The way the nerves and muscles controlling the fingers work, this is very common in the hand. We see it in other motor skills as well. It certainly can result in ADs. It can also work in reverse, i.e. Not following through on the trigger and letting the trigger finger relax can cause the grip to relax as well, disturbing the lay of the sights.

As for the shoulder tension issue, that is a problem, but I don't think I would classify that as a sympathetic squeeze issue. I suppose as a stretch you could say you tension the shoulders in response to pulling the rifle back into the pocket instead of just using the bicep, but those 2 joints and muscle groups are far enough removed I don't think I would consider it the same type of thing.....just another bad habit. Though I guess it is unintentional and related to movement of another part....

Doc

 

[StampCreek]

Lift your right hand in front of you, pretend it's holding a gun. Point the gun up you can see all your fingers. So thumb is out, middle through pinky finger are curled around the invisible grip and your index finder is slightly straighter than the rest because it's on the trigger. Now pull the trigger and watch the rest of your fingers move. Sympathetic movement. This is why when I shoot precision rifle I don't wrap my hand around the grip. I place the tips of my fingers on the front of the grip, thumb NOT wrapped around but still on the right side of the grip (right handed shooter) and my index finger on the trigger. Even if I still have sympathetic movement of those other fingers they are not around the grip and won't transfer any movement or force to the gun.

 

[Stag556]

Being an LEO, we are always told to keep finger indexed and off trigger (obviously, this is not specific to law enforcement training). Where it does become specific is when you are holding something/someone at gun point and you have to multi task using your other hand i.e. Using the radio, using hand/arm movements as commands, and whatever else you can think of. It's an odd concept to grasp at first but do something with one hand and most likely the other hand follows. When I grab my radio and squeeze key it up with my left hand, that right index finger presses against the frame of the gun. I'm not quite sure if it would be enough to squeeze a trigger but in the heat of the moment you never know.

That's how sympathetic reaction was always taught to me. Never heard of it referring to the shoulders.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[diverdon]

Picture yourself on the bench doing the heaviest press you have ever done, you hope with max intensity you will be able to do a single rep. Look at a chart and see what muscles are used. Now I ask you are those the only muscles that became tense during the lift.* No they are not because in some sympathetic way many muscle groups (and their associated controling neurons) are connected. Thus even though your feet did not help with the lift described above they did tighten. When the brain sends an nuerological command to a group of muscles a portion of that command goes to near by muscle groups.

* Today more and more we are thinking of the brain as a computer, and this may be correct, but we need to remember that it is a biological/chemical computer as much as it is a electronic computer. Even electrically if you take a copper wire an lay it across another copper wire carrying current a portion of that current can be induced into the second wire. How do transformers work?* Your nerves run in bundles, and then branch off to eventually control indivual muscles, but where they run in bundles there is a little leakage. The higher the intensity of the effort, the more and further the leakege spreads.

Training can reduce sympathetic movements, to a degree. Think when a baby grabs your finger, all of his fingers grab your finger with the same intensity, as the baby grows they and learn to send more and more of the impulse to only the desired fingers. In our case that is often the trigger finger. When pressing the trigger we do not desire sympathetic responce from the other fingers on the hand guard. Perhaps this is why some shooters like triggers that are too light.....the tiny amount of force required to press the trigger causes even tinier sympathetic response in other fingers....making it easier for them to fire the bullet to the POA. As with so many things a better answer is more training.

 

[SubOptimal]

Here is something for you to play with. You cannot move your ring finger in certain ways without help from other fingers. Form a fist with either hand and lay it down on a table with both the heel of the hand and the second joint of each finger touching the surface of the table. Now extend your pointer finger out so the pad is resting on the table. You can easily lift this finger off the table. Do the same with your middle finger, easy again. Now try the pinky, it will be a little harder but easy to do. Now extend your ring finger, hmmmm, can't pick it up, can you? There is not a tendon to allow that, but, if you extend either of the adjacent fingers along with the ring finger, you can do it.
I shoot pistols as well as rifles and even on rifles that have a pistol grip, I don't wrap my hand around the grip and the base of the thumb becomes the fulcrum for my trigger pull. With lots of training, you can control just the compression of the last two joints of your trigger finger without adding any extra pressure to the remainder of your hand.
I used the same technique when shooting my IHMSA pistols alongside my leg. There was no need to support the weight of the gun with my shooting hand, I would just rest the heel of my hand against the grip and support barrel weight with my calf muscle. The gun would free recoil into my hand and all was in control. Even my short barrel, center grip Wichita gun in 308 shot best that way.

 

[TheGerman]

Thanks for the replies, makes sense.

What brought this up was I was watching a video and it was mentioned to not use sympathetic squeeze and just be dead weight behind the rifle. Ok, easy enough.

But what doesn't make sense to me is, if its involuntary, how the hell do you NOT do it? This is what had me thinking it had to do with the shoulders as other than gripping the gun too strong with your shooting hand, tensing the shoulders or tensing one shoulder before/during shooting is what came to mind as the only other user input issue would come up at that point assuming the rest of your position was fine.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

how the hell do you NOT do it? .

You are correct - you do it and to one degree or another it just happens. However the answer to this is generally the same as recoil - all is cool as long as all force vectors do not disturb the shot. So just like the shoulders - NPA would mean using the largest muscles available to define a stationary position with as little or no active muscle input that braces against the forces of recoil and maintains the proper force vector as recoil is transferred from the rifle to the hand, to the shoulder, to the hip.... In the case of your trigger finger / sympathetic squeeze - simply rotating your hand slightly such that the recoil is more generally absorbed by the heal of the hand (not the web of thumb), and such that when the trigger finger presses the now square to the trigger shoe first pad of the index finger - the articulation of your finger is a straight press back in line with the muzzle. Simply shifting your hand promotes lining up the wrist with the elbow, which promotes the shoulders to be square and relaxed, but postured slightly forward (same holds true for anything other than prone too)....Boltripper first suggested it, and it really is a good drill: Chuck’s indoor training aid and a mirror. If the crosshair so much as wiggles on POA, you are imparting that disturbance.

 

[SubOptimal]

I equate the involuntary tensioning of the shoulder muscle with a flinch. The flinch is a learned behavior really and it takes time and practice to remove it. It really is a mental game you have to play with yourself. A ton of dry fire can both help and hurt you when you are chasing a flinch. Yes, dry fire will allow you to groove the trigger pull and increase the awareness of when the trigger breaks. It will also help you work out the involuntary closing of the eyes prior to releasing the shot. The trouble with this is it, familiarization with trigger break, is that it will lead you to anticipation of the recoil and tensing of the shoulders.
What I have found is that adjustment of the trigger to allow a slight bit of overtravel after the break, I'm not talking about a inch of travel but just a little. You then place all your focus on feeling that bit of travel and pinning the trigger to the rear. That leaves you with something else to concentrate on than just the break of the trigger. By the time you feel that trigger lock back onto the trigger guard, the recoil impulse has come and gone. A box of ammo should do it. If you find yourself back sliding, get off the gun, stand up, take a couple of deep breaths, rebuild your position and with more determination, go back to your focus.
If your gun is hurting you or pushing you around, find someone who knows about gun fit and work with him or her on getting your gun to fit you properly for your style of shooting. You may have to adjust your style a bit also but the gun needs to fit to make things less difficult. I'm fairly long and slender at 5'10", 160 lbs with a 33" arm length. 5 years ago, I weighed 245 lbs and needless to say, my guns from 5 years ago don't fit me very well anymore. Musculature has changed as well as the amount of padding around my upper chest and shoulders. I have had to adjust LOP and comb height to get things back on track.

 

[TripleBull]

Now pull the trigger and watch the rest of your fingers move. Sympathetic movement.

I shoot right handed. When I do the above with my right hand, I do not see my other fingers move. With my left hand, they move quite a bit. When I've practiced dry firing, I've worked to decouple the trigger finger movement, so maybe training worked?

 

[vh20]

Yep!

 

[strikeeagle1]

Here is a good article dispelling myths and offering scientific facts explaining the human neurology Involuntary Muscle Contractions related to Unintentional Discharge of Firearms and factors that influence inter limb effects. Enjoy.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1aplwmce5x...arges.pdf?dl=0

 

[MarkLeupold]

You are referencing sympathetic squeeze related to tensing your shoulders and the like, but I have only heard sympathetic squeeze in relation to eyes. Thus, the reason we like to try to shoot both eyes open. When you close one to look through the riflescope, the dominant eye wants to close with the other one and you end up unknowingly squinting through your scope, resulting in more eye strain.