Night Vision Photonis Echo vs OMNI 7/8

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mikefraz

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Minuteman
Dec 24, 2013
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#1
I see that higher spec Photonis Echo is often compared to Filmless WP tubes, but I don’t often see many side by side comparisons between the Echo and OMNI 7/8 tubes.
I just got my stimulus check in today and made a point to set aside $2800-3000 for as high a spec PVS-14 as I can find. I think most of the Elbit thin film WP units are out of my price range, and Filmless is definitely out of the question.

That leads me back to the Echo vs Omni 7/8 comparison. Which would be the better buy? I live in rural Indiana, so farm land is plentiful. Low light performance is important as there isn’t much in the way of artificial light, but using an IR illuminator isn’t the worst thing in the world, as long as I don’t need it for everything.
Pros/cons?
 
#3
I got Omini 7 Super Toobs.

I can see any and all. When I fire a Luna up. :LOL:

1,000 yards to woods line. :)

1616015860548.png
 
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#4
WhereNow&How said:
I got Omini 7 Super Toobs.

I can see any and all. When I fire a Luna up. :LOL:

1,000 yards to woods line. :)

View attachment 7583938
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What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?
 
#5
mikefraz said:
What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?
Click to expand...
Well the Photonis Echo will likely be much better in a high light or somewhat high light setting as it will give a cleaner image.

In really dark, it might struggle some, but they all struggle in that setting to the point that to make any real world decisions you just about have to fire an illuminator up with all off them. When you fire up the illuminator the Photonis Echo will likely give you the better image then as well.

Yeah L3 filmless high spec and high spec thin filmed might see a tad bit better in really dark settings without supplemental illumination, but is it good enough to make any real life decisions, probably not.

So here is the deal. If you wanna know if something alive is out there, rely on thermal. If you have to make a real world decision rely on an illuminator and NODs to get a real world positive ID.

Passive use of NODS is mainly for moving around and traversing terrain. Is that 10-15% advantage of a "super toob" in really dark conditions at the end of all of their passive limit use, really gonna change how you get around. So that tree is not quite as "fuzzy". So what. Lots of fuzzy stuff out there at night in dark conditions.
 
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#7
WhereNow&How said:
Well the Photonis Echo will likely be much better in a high light or somewhat high light setting as it will give a cleaner image.

In really dark, it might struggle some, but they all struggle in that setting to the point that to make any real world decisions you just about have to fire an illuminator up with all off them. When you fire up the illuminator the Photonis Echo will likely give you the better image then as well.

Yeah L3 filmless high spec and high spec thin filmed might see a tad bit better in really dark settings without supplemental illumination, but is it good enough to make any real life decisions, probably not.

So here is the deal. If you wanna know if something alive is out there, rely on thermal. If you have to make a real world decision rely on an illuminator and NODs to get a real world positive ID.

Passive use of NODS is mainly for moving around and traversing terrain. Is that 10-15% advantage of a "super toob" in really dark conditions at the end of all of their passive limit use, really gonna change how you get around. So that tree is not quite as "fuzzy". So what. Lots of fuzzy stuff out there at night in dark conditions.
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I do plan on adding a COTI at some point. I just want the best performance for my money. Sounds like the Omni 7/8 and Photonis Echo are pretty evenly matched according to you.
 
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#9
mikefraz said:
I do plan on adding a COTI at some point. I just want the best performance for my money. Sounds like the Omni 7/8 and Photonis Echo are pretty evenly matched according to you.
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The COTI is an excellent addition to any single NV or Goggle system for the role it was designed to fill. It is not anything like a regular thermal that you would normally use in a stop and scan situation and a lot of people downrate the COTI because it does not perform like a regular handheld scanner,

However, it is a device that is working basically 24/7 as you move around with your NV and if you properly adjust its settings it will let you know something alive is out there. You will then likely have to use other means for PID but like I said, it will make sure to let you know something alive is there to investigate.

A guy with a 1600 FOM old Omni 5 tube with a COTI attached to it, is in much better position than a guy with a L3 Unfilmed 3000 FOM unicorn tube.
 
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#12
mikefraz said:
What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?
Click to expand...
A 1.0 EBI on a Photonis tube would be more like a 10 EBI on a gen 3 tube. Lower the EBI the better it can differentiate the darker things.

There are lots of good videos comparing the 2.
 
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#14
Formosan said:
A 1.0 EBI on a Photonis tube would be more like a 10 EBI on a gen 3 tube. Lower the EBI the better it can differentiate the darker things.

There are lots of good videos comparing the 2.
Click to expand...

Like I mentioned in the OP, I’m fully aware that Filmless WP is better than Echo tubes. But how much better/worse is the average Omni 7/8 tube? I’m leaning towards the Omni 8 for the low light performance.
 
#16
You won’t be disappointed with either. The Photonis will hold its own against an Omni-whatever tube in dark/rural settings and will outperform the Omni-whatever in mixed lighting environments.

If you’re in the country, either will work equally as wll to any and all practical extent. If you’re in the suburbs or a more urban area, the Photonis would likely have the advantage.

Highlight resolution on Harris/Elbit/L3 tubes is generally pretty crappy and is their Achilles Heel.
 
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#17
TheHorta said:
You won’t be disappointed with either. The Photonis will hold its own against an Omni-whatever tube in dark/rural settings and will outperform the Omni-whatever in mixed lighting environments.

If you’re in the country, either will work equally as wll to any and all practical extent. If you’re in the suburbs or a more urban area, the Photonis would likely have the advantage.

Highlight resolution on Harris/Elbit/L3 tubes is generally pretty crappy and is their Achilles Heel.
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The specs on the TNVC OMNI 8 tube that I have lined up are:
SNR:29.7
64 lp/mm (1901 FOM, though my understanding is that a 64 lp/mm could actually be as high as a 67.9, as long as it’s under 68)
EBI: 1.5 (not the best, I realize, but not bad)
Halo: 0.85
zero blems in zones 1,2, and 3
Seems like great specs other than EBI, like I mentioned above. Guy is asking for $2800.
 
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#21
mikefraz said:
The specs on the TNVC OMNI 8 tube that I have lined up are:
SNR:29.7
64 lp/mm (1901 FOM, though my understanding is that a 64 lp/mm could actually be as high as a 67.9, as long as it’s under 68)
EBI: 1.5 (not the best, I realize, but not bad)
Halo: 0.85
zero blems in zones 1,2, and 3
Seems like great specs other than EBI, like I mentioned above. Guy is asking for $2800.
Click to expand...

Those are solid specs, especially for $2800 (these days).

And it’s a TNVC unit, so you’re covered, which is worth a premium.
 
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#24
TheHorta said:
Those are solid specs, especially for $2800 (these days).

And it’s a TNVC unit, so you’re covered, which is worth a premium.
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The TNVC premium is definitely a thing. When he said it was from TNVC, and had a spec sheet, it immediately got my attention. There’s a reason they have a 4+ month long backlog when other people are shipping in 4+ weeks. Some of that is just name recognition, but the customer service, build quality, and reputation count for a lot in most people’s eyes.
 
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#25
mikefraz said:
The TNVC premium is definitely a thing. When he said it was from TNVC, and had a spec sheet, it immediately got my attention. There’s a reason they have a 4+ month long backlog when other people are shipping in 4+ weeks. Some of that is just name recognition, but the customer service, build quality, and reputation count for a lot in most people’s eyes.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for the kind words Sir. We always strive to have the best CS before, during and after the sale.
 
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#28
So...i use all this shit more than a lot.

I find that when I’m driving with NODS it takes me between a lot of high light and low light zones. And that I need an Echo to avoid having to use extra illum with some of the driving conditions I find myself in.

It’s better about that than my L3 stuff.

I was able to use them in bino mode ( l3 on the right and photonis left). The l3 did better low light and the photonis better in most other conditions.

Photos are: L3 moderate light, Omni VII moderate light/same scene, Echo extremely low light. Didn’t get the best focus on the echo for that pic.
24504C96-B6C8-48D6-8F49-AFEA3C62BDE2.jpeg

C370B9C0-B837-409E-8BB6-31DDB5B47A59.jpeg
F6064381-5F7D-434E-9FD4-BD1B8B21143B.jpeg


I am satisfied/have been satisfied with any unit with more than 1800 or so FOM.

For my experiences, I want high SNR, rrs, good halo and EBI.

I find poor SNR and low res bother me the most.
 
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#31
I just got my photonis from Felipe several weeks ago... My omni 8 gp intensifier suffered a horrid death while i was showing off to my brother the glories of being a moon goon... Any ways the tube I had was f***** phenomenal... The photonis I have now is f****** phenominal as well It does well for anything I need to do under NV.. Thermal is the best way for any real detection and use NV for PID and traversing. My buddy will have a L3 Filmless and I will see if I can take pics to compare them but at the end of the day, unless your taking photos for astronomical or are in aviation any quality tube will suit you well. Photos attached are the tubes I had/have.
 

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#35
Eliteuas said:
don't let the internet trolls fool ya fellas, Photonis really is the top tier in image intensifier tube manufacturing. My target audience is LE... so when an operator is going through switching lighting conditions a washed out image can mean the loss of a split second decision that needs to be made, which can correlate to life or death in some instances. Ask any "Operator" when the 5% low-light situation occurs/ matters that an L3 out shines the PD line...... they flick on a IR illuminator. take it with a grain of salt or for what it is..
Regards
Felipe Bastos
Elite Unlocked Aiming Solutions
Premier Photonis Defense Distributor
Click to expand...
Exactly.

I have preached that for a long time as well. In those super dark environments when the filmless L3 will do a little better, it ain't enough to make real world decisions and no matter what tube you running (L3 filmless, Elbit Thin Filmed or Photonis) you got to turn an Illuminator on.

NSFJoJo over on Arfcom called L3 filmless "overcooked" and said L3 were "cucks". :)
 
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#36
I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?
 
#37
dgheriani said:
I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?
Click to expand...
You are misreading what it is saying..

The Photonis Echo will have no problem at all seeing the IR Aiming Laser (Point) and the illuminator.
 
#38
dgheriani said:
I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?
Click to expand...
OOB lasers start at about 975ish nm (methinks) and go into the much higher wavelengths.

PEQ 15's & Dbals are all much lower wavelength at around 825 to 850 nm for both (IR Point and IR Illuminate) and the Photonis Echo's perform perfectly with them just like L3 and Elbit ITT's.
 
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#39
WhereNow&How said:
OOB lasers start at about 975ish nm (methinks) and go into the much higher wavelengths.

PEQ 15's & Dbals are all much lower wavelength at around 825 to 850 nm for both (IR Point and IR Illuminate) and the Photonis Echo's perform perfectly with them just like L3 and Elbit ITT's.
Click to expand...
Got it, thanks! I was just confused because it says OOB lasers "such as individual weapon aiming lasers". What are they referring to? OOB would be like a 1550nm laser (in say a Raptor or PLRF)?
 
#40
dgheriani said:
I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?
Click to expand...


Here a photo of my DBAL 2 Illuminator and laser on high setting with an echo tube... This is in a urban neighborhood with alot of artifical light. When its pitch black out its almost like the 2nd coming of jesus.. ELIR Illumiator would be the first coming. (Shitty joke)
 

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#41
dgheriani said:
Got it, thanks! I was just confused because it says OOB lasers "such as individual weapon aiming lasers".
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Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.
 
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#42
WhereNow&How said:
Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.
Click to expand...
And thats why uou need an l3 and a photonis!
 
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#43
I got some Elbit WP that will rock with them all (for all practical purposes), albeit I am just as happy with Green also.

Different folks like different things and their eyes and brain processes differently.
 
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#45
WhereNow&How said:
Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. I'm new to NV and there's a ton to process before even getting to the much lower availability we have up here compared to you guys stateside.
 
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#48
WhereNow&How said:
Like this.

Go to 30 seconds in and watch. This is some funny shit.

Look at the expression on his co-workers face. Priceless.






Here is the guy who makes the NERD (drops NOD starting at 2.10) He hit the wrong button. No lanyard on his NODs. :LOL:


Click to expand...

Yes, just like that. It was only a couple weeks old too. Usable, but not like it once was. Lanyard is a great idea, i need something better than my bungee.
 
#49
I run 2 Wilcox Lanyards on all my helmets. One for each PVS 14's on a Mod Armory Lightweight Bridge.

Each lanyard attaches to a 3/4 keyring that is inserted into the lanyard point on each PVS 14.

I also have a lanyard on my COTI's and it attaches to the 3/4 key ring as well.

Anything can break on my helmets, (shroud, arm or bridge) and a NOD or COTI will never hit the ground.

Only way for my NODS or COTI to hit the ground is if I face plant them.

I even lanyard MFAL to my rifles. I lanyard just about everything. :LOL:
 
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#50
If you want extreme low light performance I vote gen 3. Where I predator hunt it’s in heavily wooded areas. I have a buddy with echo tubes and there is a large difference between his and my Unfilmed. Also a gap between my buddies xlsh tubes and his echo. In order i would say filmless>filmed gen 3> echo. You probably already knew this but figured I’d say it anyways.
 
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