Night Vision Photonis Echo vs OMNI 7/8

[mikefraz]

I see that higher spec Photonis Echo is often compared to Filmless WP tubes, but I don’t often see many side by side comparisons between the Echo and OMNI 7/8 tubes.
I just got my stimulus check in today and made a point to set aside $2800-3000 for as high a spec PVS-14 as I can find. I think most of the Elbit thin film WP units are out of my price range, and Filmless is definitely out of the question.

That leads me back to the Echo vs Omni 7/8 comparison. Which would be the better buy? I live in rural Indiana, so farm land is plentiful. Low light performance is important as there isn’t much in the way of artificial light, but using an IR illuminator isn’t the worst thing in the world, as long as I don’t need it for everything.
Pros/cons?

 

[Choid]

I guess in theory the Omni 7/8 is going to be a little better in the darkest circumstances, but the pictures of the newer Photonis stuff I have see seems really solid.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I got Omini 7 Super Toobs.

I can see any and all. When I fire a Luna up.

1,000 yards to woods line.

 

[mikefraz]

I got Omini 7 Super Toobs.

I can see any and all. When I fire a Luna up.

1,000 yards to woods line.

View attachment 7583938

What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?

 

[WhereNow&How]

What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?

Well the Photonis Echo will likely be much better in a high light or somewhat high light setting as it will give a cleaner image.

In really dark, it might struggle some, but they all struggle in that setting to the point that to make any real world decisions you just about have to fire an illuminator up with all off them. When you fire up the illuminator the Photonis Echo will likely give you the better image then as well.

Yeah L3 filmless high spec and high spec thin filmed might see a tad bit better in really dark settings without supplemental illumination, but is it good enough to make any real life decisions, probably not.

So here is the deal. If you wanna know if something alive is out there, rely on thermal. If you have to make a real world decision rely on an illuminator and NODs to get a real world positive ID.

Passive use of NODS is mainly for moving around and traversing terrain. Is that 10-15% advantage of a "super toob" in really dark conditions at the end of all of their passive limit use, really gonna change how you get around. So that tree is not quite as "fuzzy". So what. Lots of fuzzy stuff out there at night in dark conditions.

 

[Dvlray6]

I’ll stick with my unfilmed L3 WP.

 

[mikefraz]

Well the Photonis Echo will likely be much better in a high light or somewhat high light setting as it will give a cleaner image.

In really dark, it might struggle some, but they all struggle in that setting to the point that to make any real world decisions you just about have to fire an illuminator up with all off them. When you fire up the illuminator the Photonis Echo will likely give you the better image then as well.

Yeah L3 filmless high spec and high spec thin filmed might see a tad bit better in really dark settings without supplemental illumination, but is it good enough to make any real life decisions, probably not.

So here is the deal. If you wanna know if something alive is out there, rely on thermal. If you have to make a real world decision rely on an illuminator and NODs to get a real world positive ID.

Passive use of NODS is mainly for moving around and traversing terrain. Is that 10-15% advantage of a "super toob" in really dark conditions at the end of all of their passive limit use, really gonna change how you get around. So that tree is not quite as "fuzzy". So what. Lots of fuzzy stuff out there at night in dark conditions.

I do plan on adding a COTI at some point. I just want the best performance for my money. Sounds like the Omni 7/8 and Photonis Echo are pretty evenly matched according to you.

 

[mikefraz]

I’ll stick with my unfilmed L3 WP.

Very helpful.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I do plan on adding a COTI at some point. I just want the best performance for my money. Sounds like the Omni 7/8 and Photonis Echo are pretty evenly matched according to you.

The COTI is an excellent addition to any single NV or Goggle system for the role it was designed to fill. It is not anything like a regular thermal that you would normally use in a stop and scan situation and a lot of people downrate the COTI because it does not perform like a regular handheld scanner,

However, it is a device that is working basically 24/7 as you move around with your NV and if you properly adjust its settings it will let you know something alive is out there. You will then likely have to use other means for PID but like I said, it will make sure to let you know something alive is there to investigate.

A guy with a 1600 FOM old Omni 5 tube with a COTI attached to it, is in much better position than a guy with a L3 Unfilmed 3000 FOM unicorn tube.

 

[mikefraz]

YOU GUYS NEED TO JUST TELL ME WHICH ONE TO BUY ALREADY! Haha. I wish I could see them side by side first. I’m sure I’d have a preference.

 

[WhereNow&How]

YOU GUYS NEED TO JUST TELL ME WHICH ONE TO BUY ALREADY! Haha. I wish I could see them side by side first. I’m sure I’d have a preference.

One of my big things with a tube, is clean cosmetics. I don't like blems or spots unless they are way out in zone 3 close to the edge.

 

[Formosan]

What I’d like to know is at what point spec wise is a Photonis Echo tube with:
SNR: ~30
~72 lp/mm
2000+ FOM
EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)
Halo: <1

Better than a milspec unit OMNI 7/8? Is the Omni 7 tube better no matter what? Or is the low end of the guaranteed minimum spec not as good as a high spec Echo?

A 1.0 EBI on a Photonis tube would be more like a 10 EBI on a gen 3 tube. Lower the EBI the better it can differentiate the darker things.

There are lots of good videos comparing the 2.

 

[WhereNow&How]

A 1.0 EBI on a Photonis tube would be more like a 10 EBI on a gen 3 tube. Lower the EBI the better it can differentiate the darker things.

There are lots of good videos comparing the 2.

It seems like he understands the EBI calculations via his post were he said:

EBI: 1.0 (or 0.1 Photonis)

 

[mikefraz]

A 1.0 EBI on a Photonis tube would be more like a 10 EBI on a gen 3 tube. Lower the EBI the better it can differentiate the darker things.

There are lots of good videos comparing the 2.

Like I mentioned in the OP, I’m fully aware that Filmless WP is better than Echo tubes. But how much better/worse is the average Omni 7/8 tube? I’m leaning towards the Omni 8 for the low light performance.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Omni 7 minimum specs were better than Omni 8.

All that being said, pic out the minimums and maximums on the individual specs that you are willing to accept and go for it.

 

[TheHorta]

You won’t be disappointed with either. The Photonis will hold its own against an Omni-whatever tube in dark/rural settings and will outperform the Omni-whatever in mixed lighting environments.

If you’re in the country, either will work equally as wll to any and all practical extent. If you’re in the suburbs or a more urban area, the Photonis would likely have the advantage.

Highlight resolution on Harris/Elbit/L3 tubes is generally pretty crappy and is their Achilles Heel.

 

[mikefraz]

You won’t be disappointed with either. The Photonis will hold its own against an Omni-whatever tube in dark/rural settings and will outperform the Omni-whatever in mixed lighting environments.

If you’re in the country, either will work equally as wll to any and all practical extent. If you’re in the suburbs or a more urban area, the Photonis would likely have the advantage.

Highlight resolution on Harris/Elbit/L3 tubes is generally pretty crappy and is their Achilles Heel.

The specs on the TNVC OMNI 8 tube that I have lined up are:
SNR:29.7
64 lp/mm (1901 FOM, though my understanding is that a 64 lp/mm could actually be as high as a 67.9, as long as it’s under 68)
EBI: 1.5 (not the best, I realize, but not bad)
Halo: 0.85
zero blems in zones 1,2, and 3
Seems like great specs other than EBI, like I mentioned above. Guy is asking for $2800.

 

[Choid]

That EBI is more than fine.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Just for clarification is the EBI 0.5 or 5.0

 

[mikefraz]

Just for clarification is the EBI 0.5 or 5.0

Neither. EBI for the OMNI8 tube is 1.5.

 

[TheHorta]

The specs on the TNVC OMNI 8 tube that I have lined up are:
SNR:29.7
64 lp/mm (1901 FOM, though my understanding is that a 64 lp/mm could actually be as high as a 67.9, as long as it’s under 68)
EBI: 1.5 (not the best, I realize, but not bad)
Halo: 0.85
zero blems in zones 1,2, and 3
Seems like great specs other than EBI, like I mentioned above. Guy is asking for $2800.

Those are solid specs, especially for $2800 (these days).

And it’s a TNVC unit, so you’re covered, which is worth a premium.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Neither. EBI for the OMNI8 tube is 1.5.

Yep, like Horta said, in today's climate, that is not a bad deal at all if screen is as clean as you stated above. EBI of 1.5 is not that bad.

 

[DOVER]

Like I mentioned in the OP, I’m fully aware that Filmless WP is better than Echo tubes. But how much better/worse is the average Omni 7/8 tube? I’m leaning towards the Omni 8 for the low light performance.

This should give you a rough idea:

 

[mikefraz]

Those are solid specs, especially for $2800 (these days).

And it’s a TNVC unit, so you’re covered, which is worth a premium.

The TNVC premium is definitely a thing. When he said it was from TNVC, and had a spec sheet, it immediately got my attention. There’s a reason they have a 4+ month long backlog when other people are shipping in 4+ weeks. Some of that is just name recognition, but the customer service, build quality, and reputation count for a lot in most people’s eyes.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

The TNVC premium is definitely a thing. When he said it was from TNVC, and had a spec sheet, it immediately got my attention. There’s a reason they have a 4+ month long backlog when other people are shipping in 4+ weeks. Some of that is just name recognition, but the customer service, build quality, and reputation count for a lot in most people’s eyes.

Thank you very much for the kind words Sir. We always strive to have the best CS before, during and after the sale.

 

[mikefraz]

Thank you very much for the kind words Sir. We always strive to have the best CS before, during and after the sale.

I contacted Will (on AR15.com) to see what he could do with my budget. I’m cautiously optimistic.

 

[TNVC_Will]

I contacted Will (on AR15.com) to see what he could do with my budget. I’m cautiously optimistic.

Hey Mike, I messaged you over at the other place earlier.

 

[The King]

So...i use all this shit more than a lot.

I find that when I’m driving with NODS it takes me between a lot of high light and low light zones. And that I need an Echo to avoid having to use extra illum with some of the driving conditions I find myself in.

It’s better about that than my L3 stuff.

I was able to use them in bino mode ( l3 on the right and photonis left). The l3 did better low light and the photonis better in most other conditions.

Photos are: L3 moderate light, Omni VII moderate light/same scene, Echo extremely low light. Didn’t get the best focus on the echo for that pic.

I am satisfied/have been satisfied with any unit with more than 1800 or so FOM.

For my experiences, I want high SNR, rrs, good halo and EBI.

I find poor SNR and low res bother me the most.

 

[The King]

ETA pics to my post.

 

[mikefraz]

.

 

[RanchhandTCR]

I just got my photonis from Felipe several weeks ago... My omni 8 gp intensifier suffered a horrid death while i was showing off to my brother the glories of being a moon goon... Any ways the tube I had was f***** phenomenal... The photonis I have now is f****** phenominal as well It does well for anything I need to do under NV.. Thermal is the best way for any real detection and use NV for PID and traversing. My buddy will have a L3 Filmless and I will see if I can take pics to compare them but at the end of the day, unless your taking photos for astronomical or are in aviation any quality tube will suit you well. Photos attached are the tubes I had/have.

 

[RanchhandTCR]

They say a picture says a thousand words, nice WP tube brother! cheers!

You sold it to me so thanks for a good one!

 

[Jgunner]

You cannot beat them for the money. Great wp tube ya got there, makes me want to get one.

 

[mfox497]

I recently looked through a Photonis Echo tube. I was really impressed, especially when exposed to other lighting in that it didn’t wash out at all.

 

[WhereNow&How]

don't let the internet trolls fool ya fellas, Photonis really is the top tier in image intensifier tube manufacturing. My target audience is LE... so when an operator is going through switching lighting conditions a washed out image can mean the loss of a split second decision that needs to be made, which can correlate to life or death in some instances. Ask any "Operator" when the 5% low-light situation occurs/ matters that an L3 out shines the PD line...... they flick on a IR illuminator. take it with a grain of salt or for what it is..
Regards
Felipe Bastos
Elite Unlocked Aiming Solutions
Premier Photonis Defense Distributor

Exactly.

I have preached that for a long time as well. In those super dark environments when the filmless L3 will do a little better, it ain't enough to make real world decisions and no matter what tube you running (L3 filmless, Elbit Thin Filmed or Photonis) you got to turn an Illuminator on.

NSFJoJo over on Arfcom called L3 filmless "overcooked" and said L3 were "cucks".

 

[dgheriani]

I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?

 

[WhereNow&How]

I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?

You are misreading what it is saying..

The Photonis Echo will have no problem at all seeing the IR Aiming Laser (Point) and the illuminator.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?

OOB lasers start at about 975ish nm (methinks) and go into the much higher wavelengths.

PEQ 15's & Dbals are all much lower wavelength at around 825 to 850 nm for both (IR Point and IR Illuminate) and the Photonis Echo's perform perfectly with them just like L3 and Elbit ITT's.

 

[dgheriani]

OOB lasers start at about 975ish nm (methinks) and go into the much higher wavelengths.

PEQ 15's & Dbals are all much lower wavelength at around 825 to 850 nm for both (IR Point and IR Illuminate) and the Photonis Echo's perform perfectly with them just like L3 and Elbit ITT's.

Got it, thanks! I was just confused because it says OOB lasers "such as individual weapon aiming lasers". What are they referring to? OOB would be like a 1550nm laser (in say a Raptor or PLRF)?

 

[RanchhandTCR]

I've been trying to wrap my head around all the different tube specs and what's available up here in Canuckistan (ITAR is a bitch) and was looking up Photonis Echo tubes (because there are PVS-14 with Photonis tubes available up here). I found this on NightGoggles' website:

*ECHO tubes will not have the same performance as 4G units or Gen 3 image intensifiers intended for military and LE applications, and while the ECHO does display some Out Off Band (OOB) sensitivity to high powered systems, they do not have sufficient sensitivity for operational use with lower powered OOB devices such as individual weapon aiming lasers and marking lights

Am I reading that correctly in that you won't be able to see your IR aiming laser (from your PEQ or Dbal) with Echo tubes? I didn't realize that was a thing?

Here a photo of my DBAL 2 Illuminator and laser on high setting with an echo tube... This is in a urban neighborhood with alot of artifical light. When its pitch black out its almost like the 2nd coming of jesus.. ELIR Illumiator would be the first coming. (Shitty joke)

 

[WhereNow&How]

Got it, thanks! I was just confused because it says OOB lasers "such as individual weapon aiming lasers".

Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.

 

[Jgunner]

Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.

And thats why uou need an l3 and a photonis!

 

[WhereNow&How]

I got some Elbit WP that will rock with them all (for all practical purposes), albeit I am just as happy with Green also.

Different folks like different things and their eyes and brain processes differently.

 

[WhereNow&How]

My omni 8 gp intensifier suffered a horrid death while i was showing off to my brother the glories of being a moon goon....

So tell me a horrid death story.

Spare me no details. What happened.

 

[dgheriani]

Just crafty wordsmithing, likely styled to push buyers (especially new ones, that don't know the lingo) away from this product.

Photonis Echo's are good value for their price and good performers also, (given good to high specs just like any other tube).

In certain settings (high & mixed light urban) they will even outperform the much touted L3 Filmless in many instances.

Thanks for that. I'm new to NV and there's a ton to process before even getting to the much lower availability we have up here compared to you guys stateside.

 

[Jgunner]

he dropped it.
the end.
/

Onto tile.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Onto tile.

Like this.

Go to 30 seconds in and watch. This is some funny shit.

Look at the expression on his co-workers face. Priceless.






Here is the guy who makes the NERD (drops NOD starting at 2.10) He hit the wrong button. No lanyard on his NODs.

 

[Jgunner]

Like this.

Go to 30 seconds in and watch. This is some funny shit.

Look at the expression on his co-workers face. Priceless.






Here is the guy who makes the NERD (drops NOD starting at 2.10) He hit the wrong button. No lanyard on his NODs.

Yes, just like that. It was only a couple weeks old too. Usable, but not like it once was. Lanyard is a great idea, i need something better than my bungee.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I run 2 Wilcox Lanyards on all my helmets. One for each PVS 14's on a Mod Armory Lightweight Bridge.

Each lanyard attaches to a 3/4 keyring that is inserted into the lanyard point on each PVS 14.

I also have a lanyard on my COTI's and it attaches to the 3/4 key ring as well.

Anything can break on my helmets, (shroud, arm or bridge) and a NOD or COTI will never hit the ground.

Only way for my NODS or COTI to hit the ground is if I face plant them.

I even lanyard MFAL to my rifles. I lanyard just about everything.

 

[sheepdog697]

If you want extreme low light performance I vote gen 3. Where I predator hunt it’s in heavily wooded areas. I have a buddy with echo tubes and there is a large difference between his and my Unfilmed. Also a gap between my buddies xlsh tubes and his echo. In order i would say filmless>filmed gen 3> echo. You probably already knew this but figured I’d say it anyways.