Pin and Weld Question

[TMR137]

Two things:
1) The sandman flash hider is 2.7” long. Most AR barrels have (approximately) .5” of threading. That puts a 13.7” barrel at 13.2”. Add 2.7” = 15.9. Now with enough shims you would probably get to 16”, but you give up some thread engagement.
2) the actually length of the 13” BCM handguard is 13.375” at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions. This would possible put the shoulder of your barrel inside the hg. Now with adding the flashhider it is possible that your suppressor would be able to attach but it would be close.

Just a couple of things to ponder before you start spending money

 

[IWillNotComply]

Two things:
1) The sandman flash hider is 2.7” long. Most AR barrels have (approximately) .5” of threading. That puts a 13.7” barrel at 13.2”. Add 2.7” = 15.9. Now with enough shims you would probably get to 16”, but you give up some thread engagement.
2) the actually length of the 13” BCM handguard is 13.375” at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions. This would possible put the shoulder of your barrel inside the hg. Now with adding the flashhider it is possible that your suppressor would be able to attach but it would be close.

Just a couple of things to ponder before you start spending money

Thanks, yeah I kind of expected 13.7 would not be an option, and thank you for taking the time to write that up, very good information. Probably stuck pursuing a 14.5.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Two things:
1) The sandman flash hider is 2.7” long. Most AR barrels have (approximately) .5” of threading. That puts a 13.7” barrel at 13.2”. Add 2.7” = 15.9. Now with enough shims you would probably get to 16”, but you give up some thread engagement.
2) the actually length of the 13” BCM handguard is 13.375” at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions. This would possible put the shoulder of your barrel inside the hg. Now with adding the flashhider it is possible that your suppressor would be able to attach but it would be close.

Just a couple of things to ponder before you start spending money

Started writing out the math then you posted this, thanks for beating me to it!

@IWillNotComply if you can budge from the CHF requirement you could get a Criterion Core series 13.9". The math is more in your favor for both handguard/suppressor fitment and ability to hit 16" with a pinned muzzle device.

 

[rlsmith1]

Username does NOT check out

 

[IWillNotComply]

Started writing out the math then you posted this, thanks for beating me to it!

@IWillNotComply if you can budge from the CHF requirement you could get a Criterion Core series 13.9". The math is more in your favor for both handguard/suppressor fitment and ability to hit 16" with a pinned muzzle device.

I'm open to the Criterion route if that's going to give me a long lasting durability... I'm definitely familiar with their quality, but I'm not knowledgeable about the durability vs premium CHF options.

My main goal is to have a primary go-to for range, training, courses, occasional small game hunting, and of course the cliche 'SHTF', etc... Definitely want to have a rig that I can depend on for reliability and longevity in the event sourcing parts becomes even more impossible with any future laws that might come (worst case scenario). My budget for a replacement barrel is probably in the $300-400 range assuming I can use my receiver and handguard. I have already invested into a quality BCG (Geissele Enhanced), a backup Aero BCG, Geissele Super charging handle, Aero lower, Modlite, quality optics, etc. Will eventually swap trigger after shooting it milspec.

 

[TMR137]

Barrel life is dependent on a couple things. Barrel material, manufacture, usage, etc. If you are doing repeated Mag dumps for the life of the barrel you will burn it out quicker. Here is what I have seen over the years from quality manufacturer before falling out of acceptable accuracy:
chrome moly mil spec barrel: 12-15k
Stainless “match” barrel: 7-9k
CHF: 15-17k
There are more out there but these are the ones that I have first hand knowledge of.

I currently run 4150 rosco barrels, I have 3 of them, people are reporting 20k+ out of them. I am only up to about 4K on one of their 11.5” barres, so I’ll let you know when I shoot it out. You really can’t go wrong with any of the major manufacturers and I would imagine that most people won’t be burning out barrels at today’s ammo prices. you probably won’t ever see a difference between a Criterion and a BCM or DD. I will say that DD and BCM have notoriously large gas ports. They are designed as “combat” barrels and take a lot of rounds and abuse; however, with a can they tend to be over gassed.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Just to add more data points on where I've pulled barrels on my guns:
naked stainless: 3-8k, the 3k one was a fluke though, 7-8k is a better average
nitrided stainless and 4150: 10-13k

Haven't smoked a CL barrel yet, so can't help you there. Just know that any barrel is a wear item and getting hung up on buying one that might get you another 2k is kinda silly.

Also the Core barrels have nice small gas ports.

 

[IWillNotComply]

Barrel life is dependent on a couple things. Barrel material, manufacture, usage, etc. If you are doing repeated Mag dumps for the life of the barrel you will burn it out quicker. Here is what I have seen over the years from quality manufacturer before falling out of acceptable accuracy:
chrome moly mil spec barrel: 12-15k
Stainless “match” barrel: 7-9k
CHF: 15-17k
There are more out there but these are the ones that I have first hand knowledge of.

I currently run 4150 rosco barrels, I have 3 of them, people are reporting 20k+ out of them. I am only up to about 4K on one of their 11.5” barres, so I’ll let you know when I shoot it out. You really can’t go wrong with any of the major manufacturers and I would imagine that most people won’t be burning out barrels at today’s ammo prices. you probably won’t ever see a difference between a Criterion and a BCM or DD. I will say that DD and BCM have notoriously large gas ports. They are designed as “combat” barrels and take a lot of rounds and abuse; however, with a can they tend to be over gassed.

Thank you helpful. And the gas part matches what I have heard, assuming I'm trying my best to be 'half glass full' with this situation, and 'upgrade' from the BCM CHF ELW that is toast... If I plan to shoot probably a decent amount suppressed, is their a recommended option that isn't over-gassed that also passes the durability factor?

 

[TheOE800]

Thank you helpful. And the gas part matches what I have heard, assuming I'm trying my best to be 'half glass full' with this situation, and 'upgrade' from the BCM CHF ELW that is toast... If I plan to shoot probably a decent amount suppressed, is their a recommended option that isn't over-gassed that also passes the durability factor?

Centurion’s barrels and Sionics RGP barrels have appropriately specced gas ports and are offered in CL CHF construction.

 

[S197]

If both barrels are built by the same manufacturer and are both chrome lined. It wold not matter if the barrel is button or CHF, they will wear the lining at the same rate. You will see CL barrels run an easy 15000 rounds before the lining wears. Your barrel profile will have more affect on the desired results before that CL wears.
OP, you will find more CHF barrels if you don’t limit your self lightweight profiles.

 

[IWillNotComply]

If both barrels are built by the same manufacturer and are both chrome lined. It wold not matter if the barrel is button or CHF, they will wear the lining at the same rate. You will see CL barrels run an easy 15000 rounds before the lining wears. Your barrel profile will have more affect on the desired results before that CL wears.
OP, you will find more CHF barrels if you don’t limit your self lightweight profiles.

I'm not entirely limited to a lightweight profile. I am thinking a DD 14.5 gov profile might fit the bill also. Dumb Question here, but a DD gov profile will have no issues fitting my bcm handguard, right? It's pretty skinny, so just don't want to make a rookie mistake... I assume I'll have to get a new gas block for that barrel also?

 

[S197]

I'm not entirely limited to a lightweight profile. I am thinking a DD 14.5 gov profile might fit the bill also. Dumb Question here, but a DD gov profile will have no issues fitting my bcm handguard, right? It's pretty skinny, so just don't want to make a rookie mistake... I assume I'll have to get a new gas block for that barrel also?

Yeah it will still fit.

 

[S197]

you will need a .750 glass block

 

[IWillNotComply]

Thoughts on this barrel? Stock is low everwhere...

 

[S197]

It’s a good barrel but it depends on the price

 

[IWillNotComply]

It’s a good barrel but it depends on the price

489 with pinned gas block.... pricey, but in stock.... the picture is odd though, unless it's the wrong stock photo, does that not look like a carbine or pistol gas port? I'm not familiar with this barrel and it's performance though.

 

[S197]

I would not pay 500 for that barrel.
what did the smith say about his work?

 

[GH41]

Hammer forged rifle barrels were developed for two reasons... To make them faster and cheaper to produce. All the other perceived reasons are just smoke being blown up you ass.

 

[IWillNotComply]

I would not pay 500 for that barrel.
what did the smith say about his work?

Good to know, yeah it's a lot for a barrel. I'll wait for one of the 50 in stock subscriptions signed up for a DD or Centurian.

So I had to reschedule, got stuck in the office later than I thought, and it's a decent haul 20 mins past my house. I am going to shoot for tomorrow, or at worst, Wednesday after work. I did have several good exchanges back and forth, very nice and accommodating to fixing this... Going to target at a minimum getting comped $324 for the barrel (BCM price for same barrel) and $100 for the deadair Hider... Not sure if he will want to take the barrel or not, and I'm not sure what to do about that part or should I expect compensation and I keep it? That part is stressing me out a little, because I'm just not sure how this works.. I'd honestly be happy with enough to source my own quality barrel and parts and be able to get someone else to do it, even if I eat $100 or something..

I used my finger to scrape off the paint or whatever was applied, so it's clearly F'd up... Plus I'm going to say, I can't use my suppressor safely with this, which was the intent from the beginning. I wish I knew more about this stuff to use more facts, but you all have helped much. Here's the picture after using finger to remove paint. Makes me sick.. but maybe I can make it better than it was, because I know BCMs barrels are not the best for what they cost.

 

[S197]

Hammer forged rifle barrels were developed for two reasons... To make them faster and cheaper to produce. All the other perceived reasons are just smoke being blown up you ass.

Huh? I think you are getting this confused with button

 

[S197]

Watch this thread on Reddit, people post deals on all types of firearm parts. Just make sure that you have the “recent” filter setting.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Good to know, yeah it's a lot for a barrel. I'll wait for one of the 50 in stock subscriptions signed up for a DD or Centurian.

So I had to reschedule, got stuck in the office later than I thought, and it's a decent haul 20 mins past my house. I am going to shoot for tomorrow, or at worst, Wednesday after work. I did have several good exchanges back and forth, very nice and accommodating to fixing this... Going to target at a minimum getting comped $324 for the barrel (BCM price for same barrel) and $100 for the deadair Hider... Not sure if he will want to take the barrel or not, and I'm not sure what to do about that part or should I expect compensation and I keep it? That part is stressing me out a little, because I'm just not sure how this works.. I'd honestly be happy with enough to source my own quality barrel and parts and be able to get someone else to do it, even if I eat $100 or something..

I used my finger to scrape off the paint or whatever was applied, so it's clearly F'd up... Plus I'm going to say, I can't use my suppressor safely with this, which was the intent from the beginning. I wish I knew more about this stuff to use more facts, but you all have helped much. Here's the picture after using finger to remove paint. Makes me sick.. but maybe I can make it better than it was, because I know BCMs barrels are not the best for what they cost.
View attachment 7588456

You might contact BCM and explain the situation with pictures, see if theres a way to get a replacement. Worse thing they could say is no.

Meanwhile

Makers of the Finest Firearms Parts & Accessories | Wilson Combat

 

[IWillNotComply]

You might contact BCM and explain the situation with pictures, see if theres a way to get a replacement. Worse thing they could say is no.

Meanwhile

Makers of the Finest Firearms Parts & Accessories | Wilson Combat

I sent them a note this morning, with pictures.... And great point, worth a shot... Unfortunately, they shut off their phones and only do emails... (which is pretty annoying). From my experience, they will maybe get back to me within 3-6 weeks, but agreed worth a shot.

 

[IWillNotComply]

You might contact BCM and explain the situation with pictures, see if theres a way to get a replacement. Worse thing they could say is no.

Meanwhile

Makers of the Finest Firearms Parts & Accessories | Wilson Combat

Good find on the wilson barrel! Missed that when I first read it.... Any experience with this one? Price is right also...

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Good find on the wilson barrel! Missed that when I first read it.... Any experience with this one? Price is right also...

I have like 4 wilson barrels. They shoot.

 

[IWillNotComply]

Still havent made it to the smith, however I did hear back from BCM... Interesting that if it was silver solder, they think it might be ok... I'm curious thought, if it say did group fine, would it still have some sort of other long-term risk due to the heat it hit? As much as it sucks, I am dreading have to go through the process of finding another barrel, another smith, etc, IF it's functionally OK and unaffected (assuming Suppressor works).

Then again, I never asked for a silver soldered MD.... I asked for Pinned and Welded.. which I think is much less heat spread all over the place down the barrel, etc, vs this method. So I'm still going to pursue something. Just such a shitty situation, and lesson learned.

 

[BullGear]

That's just a lawyer written response. They will never tell you one way or the other if a modified barrel is safe. If they said it was good and you blew it apart with the first round, they're looking at a lawsuit. If they tell you no, it's unsafe and someone else, after personally inspecting the barrel says there's nothing wrong with the barrel, social media could rip the a new one.

I wouldn't use their email as any basis for determining the safety of this barrel. There Smiths on this forum, I'd listen to them before I'd listen to anyone else.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Lol, regardless if it functions or not it still looks like hammered dogshit coated in BBQ paint so theres that.

If the smith gave it a green light and your suppressor fits and the barrel shoots well. IF the smith was then willing to clean it up and and have it professionally coated. I would maybe consider keeping it ...maybe.

 

[Danajm]

Bite the bullet and send it to Dave. If work left this other guy's "shop" looking like that, I wouldn't trust him to fix anything...

 

[vigildom7]

I know 13.7/13.9 was being discussed. But do you think that the current barrel can be salvaged to 13.9?
Have a different smith cut thread and p/w to 13.9 the dead flash hider will work at that length.

 

[Cootis23]

Another option when they come in stock is Black River Tactical, they do a 14.0 barrel thats meant to be pinned with a flash hider for suppressor use, so port and threads are machined with that in mind. It's a nitride barrel, but they also offer a 14.5 chf cl barrel. Just keep an eye out for them, theyre a known very good quantity and work well suppressed

 

[greg1147]

This is what the pin and weld looks like on one of my barrels:

Nicely done, being a stick welder mostly 7018, I always liked TIG. What shop do you use I would send my upper for a quality job like that.
Greg

 

[greg1147]

This is how it's done.

 

[Fret]

Nicely done, being a stick welder mostly 7018, I always liked TIG. What shop do you use I would send my upper for a quality job like that.
Greg

It was done by JP as part of a rifle I ordered from them.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

A buddy just bought a 14.5 barrel and brake and wants me to pin and weld it. First time for everything.

 

[S197]

Still havent made it to the smith, however I did hear back from BCM... Interesting that if it was silver solder, they think it might be ok... I'm curious thought, if it say did group fine, would it still have some sort of other long-term risk due to the heat it hit? As much as it sucks, I am dreading have to go through the process of finding another barrel, another smith, etc, IF it's functionally OK and unaffected (assuming Suppressor works).

Then again, I never asked for a silver soldered MD.... I asked for Pinned and Welded.. which I think is much less heat spread all over the place down the barrel, etc, vs this method. So I'm still going to pursue something. Just such a shitty situation, and lesson learned.


View attachment 7589000

The reason they asked if it was silver soldered is because there is minimal heat used in the process and the low temperatures will not affect the steals forging process or the factory finish.

in the ar pic thread this upper had a p&w bcm bird cage flash hider, so it is safe to assume the the smith tried to burn off the old one. During that process the smith damaged the barrel. i am surprised that BCM thought the welds where silver soldered. Soldering welds flow and are smooth.

 

[Lawrence60]

View attachment 7586525

Another view...

Hi I've looked at the photographs and these welds are terrible take your rifle back and complain tell him if this work is not put right you will take it to another gunsmith and bill him for the work, these welds are not suitable and if you attach your moderator there could be an accident where either you and / or other people are injured resulting in claims against you find a better gunsmith one that doesn't wear a Stetson.

 

[Lawrence60]

After looking at the photos I see that cowboys are alive and kicking in the US as they are in the UK dangerous workmanship like this may affect more than you ifthe weapon is fired

 

[S197]

Any progress

 

[Neurotic]

I don't know where this ended up, but it looks like the 14.5" BCM ELW barrel kit is in stock at Brownells'.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...ghtweight-barrel-assembly-kits-prod84917.aspx

 

[Strykervet]

My take on this is that you paid for a professional service and got a hack job. NOT okay with that. I'm currently dealing with a GIANT mistake by a smith but at this point no reason to think they won't make it right --but it'll probably eat a month's worth of profit in order to do so, it's gonna require a chassis replacement. It's sickening all around really but it's not my fault.

But at least my fuckup LOOKS okay --just way out of spec (for a company that doesn't do out of spec!). You think YOU have bad luck... You obviously have never met me.

So at the end of the day, the value on that rifle has been tanked. Even if all else is kosher, I wouldn't pay you anywhere close to what you've got in it. In addition, since it's so fucked up looking, I'd be VERY concerned if a can would line up. I'm not familiar with that mount but from the looks of it, I'd be worried about it locking up and mating properly too.

There is NO reason it should look like that. To pin and weld all you gotta do is (take some initial measurements) install the fucking thing like normal and then sink a 1/8" or so drill w/drill stop so it just penetrates the barrel. Drop a hardened pin in there and weld over. It should look like a little 3/16" flat "button", maybe a bit discolored, and some places even buff that down and refinish it so you can't tell at all. That's it, and all it really takes is a drill press and a weld. Shit, you could do it with a hand drill.

Whatever the fuck they did I have no idea, but they ruined the value of the rifle.

Guessing SBR isn't a thing where you are? I pinned and welded two LMT rack M4's --then a month later WA approved SBR's almost overnight with no fanfare or warning. Would have been nice for a heads up... Anyway, one fell out of the safe one time and took a bit of a hit near the muzzle, nothing spectacular but it managed to break the weld and had to be redone at no cost. FWIW, Rainier Arms uses or used a Boeing machinist to do their work and he did phenomenal work.

I'd want a replacement and at their cost.

As for the barrel you're interested in, Noveske has been my goto for years for SBR barrels. They function suppressed or not without adj. gas blocks and other shit and I've got several that hover around 1MOA or so regardless of size or caliber. Their hammer forged barrels have a chrome lining on par with a SAW barrel, there probably isn't a tougher one. Noveske generally runs a sale around November to clean out their stock and you can get really good deals on stuff then. I wouldn't pay $500 for that one either --I think I paid around $300 or so for the 5.56 12.5 chrome lined switchblock barrel I got (that's the only adj. block I'll own and I only have that one because it came with the rifle).

For $500 you can get a custom Krieger cut rifle barrel in a med. profile that will certainly shoot better than you can. I have one that very well could be .25MOA --I really don't know yet but it just farting around it was significantly more accurate and smoother than a Nav. spec. Lilja I have and it's good for .5MOA with good ammo.

But I wouldn't be buying a barrel, that outfit that hacked your barrel up would be. Then it's up to you if want them giving it another go.