Night Vision Please help with clip-on optic

[SSW7]

I have the need for a medium (25-200m) range scope to be used half the time with a gen 2 clip-on on an AR based 17hmr.

I’m looking at either these two Steiner scopes:
Steiner P4i 1-4x24 variable scope.
Steiner M536 fixed 5x36 battle sight.
Both scopes have NV settings and I’ll be using an IR illuminator.

Which would be the better choice in terms of clip-on usage? Any input would be great, I am leaning towards the M536.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

The P4i is the one I would get . 5x isn’t a lot but on a decent gen 2 clip on it will be on your high side of magnification. 4x magnification is more than enough for 200 yards anyway. I shoot my MR556 600 quite a bit, very accurately, with a 4x32 acog. If you need some suggestions on an illuminator to use to maximize your performance of a clip on give me a shout. I can get you in the right direction.

Jay

 

[Hogrider2000]

surgeon_shooter gave you good advise and under many conditions you will need an IR illuminator. Remember one thing with the IR illuminator. I would suggest not turning it on when facing the target directly. Bring it down on the target slowly.

 

[Forrest84]

Surgeon shooter got me all sorted out with a clip on and Illuminator and I’m 100% satisfied with his advice and business

 

[SSW7]

Thanks Jay and guys for the solid advice.

I'll go with the 1-4.
I have read somewhere that a fixed scope has less lenses and should perform better than a variable scope, I was surprised when I looked through a fixed 10x scope with my CO how good it looked. But the M536 has a very short eye relief and only suited to AR type rifles, the 1-4 can be moved around if needed.

 

[GeoffatBurris]

I have read somewhere that a fixed scope has less lenses and should perform better than a variable scope,

The M332 and M536 are fixed, but they're also prism sights, so instead of several disc shaped lenses, you get one internal prism to magnify the image. It's like roof-prism binoculars, a thing Steiner engineers know a bit about. It makes them more compact, and theoretically less susceptible to knocking lenses out of alignment (not really an issue with any quality optics).

Fixed focal length scopes not only have fewer lenses, they have few moving lenses. So again, theoretically less susceptible to damage.

All of this gets absolutely into the trivia. It's really all about finding the optic that meets your needs the best. Thanks for the support!

Geoff from Burris/Steiner

 

[SSW7]

The M332 and M536 are fixed, but they're also prism sights, so instead of several disc shaped lenses, you get one internal prism to magnify the image. It's like roof-prism binoculars, a thing Steiner engineers know a bit about. It makes them more compact, and theoretically less susceptible to knocking lenses out of alignment (not really an issue with any quality optics).

Fixed focal length scopes not only have fewer lenses, they have few moving lenses. So again, theoretically less susceptible to damage.

All of this gets absolutely into the trivia. It's really all about finding the optic that meets your needs the best. Thanks for the support!

Geoff from Burris/Steiner

Thanks Geoff, that makes sense. Still tempted by the M536 but I'll give the P4i a go, it's gotten great reviews and looks pretty compact.

If I had more funds I'd seriously look at the Burris 1-8, Razor 1-6 or Nightforce NXS1-8.

One last question for the guys in the know, does objective lens size make a difference when using a clip-on. will a scope with a 40-50mm objective have a better image than a scope at the same power with a smaller (24-32mm) objective lens.

To date I've only shot my CO with a Bushnell LRHS 3-12x44, 4.5-18x44 and SWFA 3-9x42 and was wondering if I'll give up anything by going with a smaller objective lens.

 

[TNVC_Augee]

The 1-4x is generally going to be more versatile for you, especially at your stated ranges--the clip-on is one issue, without knowing exactly which you plan to use, some Gen. 2 clip-ons may start to struggle at 5x anyways, but assuming you're looking at a clip-on so you can use your optic during the day as well, and under most circumstances, I would say a 1-4x variable is going to be far more versatile and far more useful at 25-200m.

~Augee

 

[GeoffatBurris]

does objective lens size make a difference when using a clip-on. will a scope with a 40-50mm objective have a better image than a scope at the same power with a smaller (24-32mm) objective lens.

I'm hoping someone with better info on clip-ons will chime in. But I do not think the objective lens size would have any impact.
A bigger objective never makes a "better image." It allows more light into the inner scope tube, making it better for low light conditions. So it might be a great advantage in those times between sunlight and need for NV.

I don't think a big objective would have any disadvantages for NV clip-on, other than maybe needing to get it lifted a bit. I am far, far from an expert on this.

 

[The King]

Note that you don't need "NV" settings with a clip on. That's only for a PVS behind the scope setups.

 

[j-huskey]

Except for a trijicon scope, I've never used a 1-4 or 1.5-5 that had a larger objective than the 30mm tube size. (S&B, Nxs, and leup.)
I've used 2.5-8x3? and 2.5-10x42, 2.5-10x56, and 3.5-10 x40&50, AND the clearest best pic was with the 1-4 And 1.5-5's. 2nd place 2.5-10×42 nxs. jmhe.

The bigger objectives made zero difference to me behind both pvs22, pvs27, t70, t75, and lwts. The little critters outdid them every time.

 

[softcock]

Except for a trijicon scope, I've never used a 1-4 or 1.5-5 that had a larger objective than the 30mm tube size. (S&B, Nxs, and leup.)
I've used 2.5-8x3? and 2.5-10x42, 2.5-10x56, and 3.5-10 x40&50, AND the clearest best pic was with the 1-4 And 1.5-5's. 2nd place 2.5-10×42 nxs. jmhe.

The bigger objectives made zero difference to me behind both pvs22, pvs27, t70, t75, and lwts. The little critters outdid them every time.

-
what jhuskey say's.
Last night just out checking 100 yard zero and zero on the IR lazer to see if all still GTG . . I use a 1-6 x24 behind a pvs-9 , and dayscope Obj. size makes no difference . The amount of light gathered is All up to the NV and the projected image it is making for you .
It was a real hazy full cloud ceiling last night but Moon was giving some Illum. to the clouds and I was using Zero gain on NV and No IR illum. .
shooting 2" groups on paper @ 100 yard, all inside a black 2" square target . It was real very easy to see a 2" black square target with using 6x . and 24mm Obj. behind a clip-on .
.
edit add:
for Night hunting and a Clip-on . If I had to make the best choice in scope for me . It would be a 2-10 power . 2nd focal . with a nice Bold black thicker lined Ret. with a few subtension marks . I would be GTG easy peezy on Coyotes to 300 yard .
and the dayscope having a illuminated Ret. is not even needed for me .
.

 

[SSW7]

Note that you don't need "NV" settings with a clip on. That's only for a PVS behind the scope setups.

Good to know, I’ve never used a scope with illumination behind a clip-on. I’ve probably shot over a hundred animals with my current NV setup (rabbits, foxes, pigs) and never felt the scope reticle was hard to see. Makes sense the NV settings are for monoculars behind the scope, like using one with a Eotech, etc.

Thanks for the info on lens size Geoff and j, I need not worry about it when choosing an optic for a CO.

 

[SSW7]

-
what jhuskey say's.
Last night just out checking 100 yard zero and zero on the IR lazer to see if all still GTG . . I use a 1-6 x24 behind a pvs-9 , and dayscope Obj. size makes no difference . The amount of light gathered is All up to the NV and the projected image it is making for you .
It was a real hazy full cloud ceiling last night but Moon was giving some Illum. to the clouds and I was using Zero gain on NV and No IR illum. .
shooting 2" groups on paper @ 100 yard, all inside a black 2" square target . It was real very easy to see a 2" black square target with using 6x . and 24mm Obj. behind a clip-on .
.
edit add:
for Night hunting and a Clip-on . If I had to make the best choice in scope for me . It would be a 2-10 power . 2nd focal . with a nice Bold black thicker lined Ret. with a few subtension marks . I would be GTG easy peezy on Coyotes to 300 yard .
.

Thanks for that. I might look a bit more into it. I once had a NF NXS 2.5-10x32 which would have been great for it.

Any scopes you’d recommend at around the $400-$600 budget. I’m using a SWFA 3-9 ffp atm and have Mark 4 3.5-10x40 sfp I could use.

 

[j-huskey]

I beat up and broke so many 4-600$ scopes, I gave up and went to those nxs. So, I don't know what's out there now. Wish I could help you on the lower prices but I can't.

 

[The King]

So the information i’m about to spit out here is dirt old and of not much value..

the lens size of the objective actually DOES have some impact, if i remember the old skool instruction i got on this a 12 years ago.

Ideally, it needs to be the same size or bigger than the ocular lens of the NODS unit. that way it gathers the same light as is output by the NODS unit.

again if i remember right a lot of units have a 28mm ocular on the clip on, and some have a 40mm ocular.

regardless, most day scopes are sized well to match mag to Light Gathering in the day.

The only scope i think would cause much of a problem is a 1-8X24. and not even much a problem.

 

[SSW7]

Thanks King, with your info and the above posts, I've settled on the P4i 1-4. It's USA made with German glass and I should be able to get it within my budget. Any excuse to buy a new scope is good times.