Pre soak before SS tumble???

[steve123]

Guys are claiming 1.5-2 hours to completely clean their brass. Not so with me. I have the faster tumbling Thumblers, use 6-7 lbs of pins - tried 5lbs too, use Lemishine and whatever dish soap wifey has on hand. It takes a good 5 hours to get the normal amount of brass perfectly clean. Any less time and there are remnants of carbon residue inside cases or near the flash hole in the primer pocket. Sometimes I put in some fresh cleaning solution half way through if I run a larger amount of brass but that effects how shiny the brass is not necessarily that it's perfectly clean if taken out in 3-4 hours.

I have a ultrasonic that I used to use to soften the carbon but doing so is also time consuming and a bit of a hassle checking back on the ultraS every half hour which is the max run time.

Wishing there was a carbon softener that won't affect the brass that I could soak the brass in a container overnight to save time tumbling. Is there such a thing?

 

[GhengisAhn175]

This is almost 1.5 hours of tumbling inside my frankford arsenal tumbler.

It was almost chock full..

Some primer pockets show slight traces of carbon because of lack of space to get around really good.

It can be done... must be something you're doing as far as your cleaning agent mix goes.


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[GhengisAhn175]

And to address your carbon softener chemical there is such a thing...

http://iosso.com/products/case-cleaner-case-cleaner-kit/

 

[OzTRG]

Not sure if it helps but I use a thumbler with 5lb dry ss media, fill it with cold water to 1" from top, a squirt of dishwashing Liquid and a pinch of lemishine. 100pieces of 300wm or 260rem brass and 1.5 to 2hrs and all clean - inside and out. I use Remington brass for the 300 and lapua for the 260. ADI2209 and ADI 2213SC (H4350 and H4831 equivalents with federal premium large rifle and federal large magnum rifle primers). I tend to clean within a month of shooting the brass.

Just speculating but different powder/primer combinations, length of time between shooting and cleaning, hard water may have an influence over your results.

I have an engineering background and reloading for precision so I am a little OCD when it comes to the process, cleaning included. On occasions when I have had to pull a thumbler load out early, say after 1hr I have had some of the signs you mentioned however it has made not discernible difference - guns both (TRG42 and tikka Ctr in an aiat stock) still shoot 0.1 to 0.15mil (1/3 to 1/2 MOA) out to 1000m.

My 2 cents worth

 

[AuburnBLK]

I run the frankford a full three hours with a lemishine and dawn + 5lbs of pins. Now - I only do 100 qty batches at a time - and they come out perfect. 2 hours and results are similar to the issues you mentioned

 

[steve123]

And to address your carbon softener chemical there is such a thing...

http://iosso.com/products/case-cleaner-case-cleaner-kit/

Good find, I should try that, thanks.

We do have hard water where I live, just replaced a faucet after only five years. Maybe that has something to do with it. My ultrasonic has always done a poor job which is why I went with the SS method instead.

I don't mind a little carbon residue in the cases too much, and yes there doesn't seem to be any problems caused, but I figure since I'm cleaning brass I might as well get it totally clean.

The other problem with running my brass so long is excessive peening on the mouth of the brass. I either trim it and camphor/debur or just c/d. Gotta be careful to make sure I get the sharp edge off the outside of the mouth because of the sharp edge my tool creates.

 

[TripleBull]

And to address your carbon softener chemical there is such a thing...

http://iosso.com/products/case-clean...e-cleaner-kit/

Interesting. I looked up the MSDS and it lists a proprietary phosphate and a proprietary detergent. Says the pH is in the range of 3-5 and that it freezes at 32F. So maybe it's a relatively dilute phosphoric acid plus a soap?

http://www.sinclairintl.com/userdocs...73_default.pdf

Edit: also found this:

2. COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
DESCRIPTION CAS NUMBER WEIGHT PERCENT EXPOSURE LIMITS

Phosphoric Acid – H3PO4 7664-38-2 <20 1 mg/m3
Hydroxyacetic Acid – C2H4O3 79-14-1 <7 3 ppmb
Dipropyleneglycol Monomethyl Ether 34590-94-8 <7 100 ppm a,d C7H16O3
Benzotriazole – C6H5N3 95-14-7 <1 N/Ec
Dodecylbenzenesulfonic Acid 27176-87-0 <24 N/Ec C18H30SO3
Water – H2O 7732-18-5 >41 N/Ec

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215731

 

[z7.jled]

What dishwashing soap? Regular blue dawn does a better job and about a 9mm case of lemishine. I have done up to 400 .234 brass in a load and around 2 hrs get the pockets clean. . . But i am not obsessive over the primer pocket carbon. I dont have buildup so i dont worry about the residual

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[Devildog]

I have hard water also, I use two tablespoons of dawn soap and one heaping tablespoon of lemishine for 3 hrs in my franklin tumbler and the brass looks like new every time.

 

[Rangemaster]

I have hard water also, I use two tablespoons of dawn soap and one heaping tablespoon of lemishine for 3 hrs in my franklin tumbler and the brass looks like new every time.

teaspoon of lemishine and two tablespoons of armorall car wash does it for me. 2 hours max and they are slick as snot on a door knob.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

I got hard water too... you guys are thinking way too much into this.

Hot water + dawn (be liberal about it if you want) + lemi shine (be liberal about it if you want)

this is above is my base detergent. I always use the above. I use the below when:


i use D-lead hand soap for first cleaning after depriming. I SS tumvle for 1-3 hours depending on amount and how much time I got on my hands. A minimum 30 minutes. Whole point of this is to get shit off cases so I can lube and size.

for my final cleaning (getting lube off and prepping to load) I add Meguiars ultimate wash and wax (yellow). (Courtesy to spawn for sharing this with me).
Leaves cases with a very light film of finish wax for easy seating.

I used to lube inside case necks before throwing powder but I don't think I need to anymore. still testing it out for consistency.

Long story short,
dont worry about how t looks or how hard or soft your water is.
Clean your cases, use extra SS pins (hell use 8 #'s) and always add a light chamfer/deburr to case mouths after your final tumbling

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Don't get too liberal on the wax; you want the cases to grip the chamber...you don't want it super slick.

 

[idlplumb]

I was having the same issue after my first run. I used Palmolive but I'm guessing dawn is better so I'm definitely trying that next.


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[Devildog]

teaspoon of lemishine and two tablespoons of armorall car wash does it for me. 2 hours max and they are slick as snot on a door knob.

I've read that in the past and had forgotten about using armorall car wash. Do you find that it helps to prevent the brass from tarnishing with time? After I finish working my brass it normally starts to loss its luster, just curious thanks.

 

[steve123]

Anyone know if ammonia is damaging to brass? I bought this old cabin once that had suit on the wood ceiling from a bad seal on the wood stove pipe. The only thing that would take it off was ammonia.

More and better soap and lemishine I suppose at this point.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Steve, don't know why you're having troubles.

how much are you filling the tumbler? (Don't know internal die)
How many cases?

What are you CURRENTLY using for detergent and how much?

 

[steve123]

Steve, don't know why you're having troubles.

how much are you filling the tumbler? (Don't know internal die)
How many cases?

What are you CURRENTLY using for detergent and how much?

I'm filling it 75% full now but have tried half full too. Look like it holds 1 gallon capacity or there abouts. Not seeing any difference in time either way. I typically only clean 50 rifle cases at a time.

1 tablespoon dish soap, don't know brand but not Dawn- sudsy when I open the tumbler.

9mm's worth of Lemishine.

 

[TripleBull]

Anyone know if ammonia is damaging to brass?

Depending on how concentrated the ammonia is, it may embrittle brass.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326030

http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-58344.html

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Go ahead and squirt a good amount. Try a shot glass full of dish soap and half a shot glass of Lemishine if you have it

 

[.30kal]

I use Dawn and Lemishine in a Frankford Arsenal Tumbler w/ 5lbs of pins. 2-2.5 hours gets my de-capped Creedmoor cases nice and clean. I run the brass a second time after resizing and prepping the case mouths without the pins to wash off the case lube and brass shavings.

 

[SHMtastic]

I had a problem with the last batch of filthy brass I put in my Frankford, it took two cleanings, but it was older brass, my father in law has been saving his 7mm Rem Mag brass for years, apparently just waiting for me to find his daughter. After my normal routine of a 9mm of Lemi shine and a two second squirt of blue dawn dish soap and 2.5 hours of spinning, the water came out looking like tar, and the cases weren't up to par. So I did clean water, new Lemi shine and soap, half concentration though, and gave it one more hour. Came out looking right.

I say all that because of this. I have purchased some Norma once fired brass from Sweden that I'm assuming comes from factory testing and it shows up as my girls say, just ga-ross. It's dirty​ brass, but for 100 for 600 pieces of 30-06, it's well worth it. It makes me wonder if I need to clean the media and tumbler after doing very dirty brass. I have done thousands of cases and never really run it with just pins and water to clean the inside of the tumbler and pins themselves, could be the cause?

I wouldn't pre soak, but for filthy brass I may start doing an hour spin and just dump most of the water and then do it for another hour. It doesn't take much time and a bottle of Lemi shine lasts forever. Just working to refine the process.

SHM

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[steve123]

Depending on how concentrated the ammonia is, it may embrittle brass.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326030

http://benchrest.com/archive/index.php/t-58344.html

It's a no for ammonia then.

Thanks for looking that up

 

[winniedonkey]

Big squirt of Dawn. I buy in bulk, we use it at home for lots of cleaning. Make sure you get the bottle with the baby chicken. I works better.

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[steve123]

Okay so maybe it's the wrong dish soap brand and that I need more quantity of Lemishine and Dawn??

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Steve,

stop overhinking this.

just use more of what you currently have. If you can buy Lemishine, get it. Understand all Lemishine does is SHINE THE CASES. It doesn't clean it additionally.

Stainless steel pins, a degreasing detergent (liquid soap) and agitation is what's going to clean cases.

 

[lash]

Ghengis, I agree that he does not need to overthink this issue, but just wanted to clear up one small detail. Lemi Shine is acidic (PH of 3), which is one good reason why it helps to polish the brass. Here's the MSDS Or SDS as they are now called:

http://huco-cleaninghouse.com/images/msds/lemi shine msds.pdf


Similar acidic compounds work as well, in varying amounts.. Things like Bar Keeper's Friend and even white vinegar work also, Those that use Lemi Shine or other additives that are similar, usually note that the brass will discolor quickly if not well rinsed afterwards or if there is no wax or polish product added afterwards (even though Lemi Shine has a proprietary mix, I'd guess that there is a polish in there also).

The hard water issue is real and that is one reason why some will have to use more product than others. Hard water has a high PH and adding one of these , usually acidic, compounds/additives will help the cleaning process considerably. This applies to laundry also. Adding 1/2-1 cup of white vinegar to your laundry if you have hard water will result in less soap needed and your clothes and towels will smell fresher longer without the addition of dryer products. Similar application.

 

[steve123]

I didn't think I was overthinking it, LOL. Just curious why some of you guys get clean brass in such a short time. No big deal that it takes longer in my case but I wouldn't have minded finding a short cut.

Wouldn't it be cool if I could dump the dirty brass in a container overnight to soak and just tumble in the morning for an hour.???

Like I mentioned earlier the mouths are quite peened running for 5 hours, that's part of the problem. I can run the brass in the ultrasonic and reduce tumbler time significantly but doing so is just annoying.

There is a big difference between a tablespoon of dish soap vs a shot glass's worth so there's' that...

 

[lash]

In case you missed it while you were posting, address your hard water issue by adding an acidic (more Lemi Shine, Bar Keeper's Friend, white vinegar, etc...) and the soap will be able to do it's work better.

 

[steve123]

In case you missed it while you were posting, address your hard water issue by adding an acidic (more Lemi Shine, Bar Keeper's Friend, white vinegar, etc...) and the soap will be able to do it's work better.

Thanks, I sure will.

 

[NCHillbilly]

I also use dawn (concentrated) and lemishine, but I add hot water. I have hard water,but it hasn't seemed to be a problem yet. I think if you would switch to hot water you'd see an improvement. If you are cleaning cases that have had winchester primers, you may have to use a brush or primer pocket uniformer. Those primers have always left residue that was extremely aggravating to remove.

 

[MrSmith]

Another vote for hot water. I'll put the cases in the drum with the pins and run the faucet as hot as it will go until the cases are covered. Let 'em set a bit and warm up then dump the water and do it again. Object is to heat the cases, pins and the drum so they're already hot when I add the boiling water. Healthy squirt of blue Dawn and good shake of Lemi Shine and tumble for about 2.5 hrs. By now it has all cooled off. Drain and place the cases on a flat pan outside in the bed of my pickup (black Rhino liner) in the sun. Hour later they're dry, in and out.

We do have hard water. Going to try the vinegar tip.

Thank you,
MrSmith

 

[steve123]

Just a update. It's been this long, since mid April, that I've needed to clean brass.

Wifey bought some Dawn dishwashing liquid. I put a couple tablespoons and twice the amount of Lemi in with 120 count of 30 year old once fired LC 308 brass. I checked at 1.75 hours and what do you know, the brass was perfectly clean!

Mystery solved. It was using Dawn that made all the difference.

 

[lash]

So, it's true what they say; "It's always darkest before the Dawn."

Glad you got it figured out.

 

[steve123]

Yeah, if anything is going to go wrong it's going to happen to me. Glad the golden light after the Dawn has shined through!

 

[Changed]

My first step in the reloading process is to tumble the cases to get most of the grime out. The trick to doing this successfully, for me, is to do so in a wet tumbler with pins, and Finish Automatic Dishwasher Detergent. I cut a sliver off, and in thirty minutes I'm ready to move to the next step depriming. Once I've sized, I tumble once more before trimming. The Finish product works extremely well.