Precision reloading for an M1 Garand…anyone experimented enough to find a 1 MOA load? Is it even possible with a Garand?

[boisepaw]

I love experimenting with my bolt guns…loading 20 rounds in .2 grain powder increments, trying different powder/bullet combos. Search for an SD under 10 and an ES under 20. Can you find the same kind of precise load for a Garand! The mil-surp I’ve been shooting never seems to get much better than 2 to 2.5 inches at 100 yards…trying six or seven different rifles and five or more different production loads.

I'm trying to decide if I want to go down the rabbit hole with my Garands or if I will just get frustrated.

Anyone with first hand experience you can share with me?

 

[John Glidewell]

I played with one. Do some searching on it, lots of info. Big points I learned. The op rod can be damaged running heavy bullets so stay in the 168 or lighter family. I run QL and some folks said to keep pressure around 50 to 55k, said that is where it runs best. There was a barrel time there and it shot good. Sorry, don't remember load, I know I ran varget. If memory serves, it was a 168 SMK running around 2550.

 

[granite wagon]

This guy knows Garands inside out & sideways and He's a contractor for some ballistics laboratories.
If He can't get Ya sorted out / I don't know who could ..

 

[RegionRat]

Are we talking a match prepped rig, or a rack grade rifle?

On average, don't expect a rack grade rifle to shoot like a match prepped rig.

The extra work on to turn a Garand into a match rig isn't cheap or easy these days. It wasn't a cheap or quick thing even back when it was more common in Service Rifle XTC.

Thirty years ago, armorers who knew how to upgrade a Garand were more common, but after about '92 the Black Guns took over and you saw the Garand and the M1A disappearing quickly, and so too did the folks who worked on them.

An average rack gun doesn't hold under an MOA except on rare occasion, and even getting under 1.5 MOA is above average.

 

[Haney]

The Garand is like any other rifle . Good loads and a good bore and it will shine .

 

[boisepaw]

Are we talking a match prepped rig, or a rack grade rifle?

On average, don't expect a rack grade rifle to shoot like a match prepped rig.

The extra work on to turn a Garand into a match rig isn't cheap or easy these days. It wasn't a cheap or quick thing even back when it was more common in Service Rifle XTC.

Thirty years ago, armorers who knew how to upgrade a Garand were more common, but after about '92 the Black Guns took over and you saw the Garand and the M1A disappearing quickly, and so too did the folks who worked on them.

An average rack gun doesn't hold under an MOA except on rare occasion, and even getting under 1.5 MOA is above average.

Either/both. I have three Garands that have had lots of work done that shoot very well. And a couple of “off-the-shelf“ CMP rifles of different grades that seem to have real potential. But none or stellar. Even with CMP’s Lapua/Scenar or Hornady loads.

oddly, I found some Italian loads for the Garand that shoot quite well out of the box.

 

[boisepaw]

I played with one. Do some searching on it, lots of info. Big points I learned. The op rod can be damaged running heavy bullets so stay in the 168 or lighter family. I run QL and some folks said to keep pressure around 50 to 55k, said that is where it runs best. There was a barrel time there and it shot good. Sorry, don't remember load, I know I ran varget. If memory serves, it was a 168 SMK running around 2550.

Last weekend I tried three rifles with three bullets (SMK 150, 168 and 175) with each bullet getting their own charge weight of IMR 4895 and the SMK175 also getting a charge of IMR 4064...total 60 reloads. They all seemed to shoot better than HXP's or AMA's or loads from Germany, Venezuela or Ethiopia or even CMP's Hornady loads. And they were comparable to CMP's Lapua/Scenar loads. The Italian loads were quite good also. So clearly an improvement with the first attempt at one suggested charge weight (from Master Po's Temple) for each bullet. Now...I just don't know how far to pursue it or if there is something inherent in the design of the Garand.

My first learning experience with reload was loading easily 2000 rounds for a Remington 700 in 308 with every imaginable bullet, powder and charge weight...chasing a consistent sub-MOA load. I got really close but never completely consistent. There was a factory Remington match load that was like magic in that rifle (consistent 1/2 to 1 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards) but I could never quite duplicate it. I absolutely loved the process and what I learned but I also seemed to learn that some rifles just aren't going to easily get to a higher level of accuracy.

The other dynamic...while I know what I can do with a scope at 100 yards...I just don't know how much my accuracy is affected by having 68 year old eyes with open sights at 100 yards. I can certainly imagine my eyes simply not seeing a 1-2 inch difference in the point of aim at 100 yards...

 

[RegionRat]

.I just don't know how far to pursue it or if there is something inherent in the design of the Garand.

The other dynamic...while I know what I can do with a scope at 100 yards...I just don't know how much my accuracy is affected by having 68 year old eyes with open sights at 100 yards. I can certainly imagine my eyes simply not seeing a 1-2 inch difference in the point of aim at 100 yards...

(TLDR: A decent sample of a rack grade gun can hold the 10 ring, which is roughly 3.5 MOA and the X ring is 1.5 MOA. Very few guns will hold the X ring for 20 shots slow prone unless they are match prepped. Many will not hold 95%, so don't feel bad if your doesn't. As far as your eyes, just use cheaters and you will be fine as long as you can focus on the front blade. I have won Gold medals in CMP games using dime store cheaters.)

You give a gun a good try and you call it what it is.... Can a gun that comes out of the rack and shoots poorly with good ammo want a different load? Sometimes, however...

This does happen but it was rare and generally if we fed a gun one of the pet loads and it didn't shoot well, that wasn't a good sign and I would just pass it up and reach for the next one. That is easy at the clubs with dozens of rifles to sort through, but not at home where it means trying a whole different gun. (BTW, this is why after 40 years of playing with these, I only recently bought one of my own from the CMP, but it has a brand new Criterion barrel and is completely rebuilt.)

To answer your question a little deeper, I will say that a good rack grade gun is a statistical thing, meaning that the best 1 Sigma guns can surprise you, but... that doesn't account for the other 5 Sigma worth does it?!?

In SR XTC, a good one can hold the 10 ring with a high X count at 300 yards. That means it shoots 10 rounds from prone-sling with a mandatory reload that is shot with 2 in the first clip, then 8 rounds, in under 70 seconds.

There is a brief cool off during the scoring, and then a second string is shot. This is worth mentioning since the barrel is still hot and the sure signs of a worn out gun will show the group open up during these stages. Many folks assume a gun will show wear at 600 but it is the rapid stages that open up first due to the heat during rapid strings.

So how big are the score rings that I am describing? I will show you the 300 yard targets that I am saying separate the good guns from the typical ones here, then add in the 200 yard target used in the CMP games where all the guns are in theory supposed to meet rules that do not allow match prep but will allow what I will call sorting parts and re-barreled guns.

Here are the 300 yard rings. A very good example can hold the 10 ring from prone sling with a good driver using "standard" ammo.

Here are the 200 yard rings used in CMP games. You will see "clean" scores in CMP Games when folks have a good sample and good loads.
If you translate the target to the 100 yard MOA level, just divide by 2 and you will see the X ring is roughly 1.5 MOA and the 10 ring is roughly 3.5 MOA.

Only about half the rack grade guns with good chamber and muzzle readings will hold 95% and I will estimate fewer than one third will hold clean, using HXP surplus ball ammo. The ones CMP sells with new Criterion barrels will typically shoot clean with HXP and better with hand loads, but even those are not always guaranteed to hold the 10 ring based on a few we have seen.

On your eyes... when I was young I didn't need anything to get a crisp focus on the the front blade. Now I do...

I can get by with simple dime store cheaters, but in prone they have to be full size glasses without a thick rim on top. The CMP rules do not allow lenses in the rifle, but there is a lens system called an SR-Microsight that fits inside the sight hood that allows you to focus on the front blade where it is allowed. There are also pistol shooting glasses with the cheater on the top instead of the bottom that allow you to focus on the front blade.

In summary, feed your gun a 168 MK using one of the Pet Loads. If it doesn't shoot fair you can try and adjust the loading up and down a little to see if it helps, but I haven't witnessed too many miracles with these. A good sample tends to be able to hold the 10 ring for rapid prone stages where a good driver has a chance to honestly evaluate the gun. If it will not hold for at least a slow prone test, then you call it what it is and just have fun. YMMV

 

[Xcount]

colossal waste of time and money.

I've been around a few Don McCoy match conditioned .308W Garands and rarely if ever saw high X count cleans at any yardline.

Not only does the rifle/ammo have to do but the shooter has to also. Are you that guy with iron sights?

 

[England]

I was fortunate to take the CMP Advanced Garand Maintenance clinic where one builds a Garand "Special". It shoots well. Attached are two photos. One is from the CMP Talladega range using their ultrasonic target system and my Danish surplus ammo. The second is a 16-round group with handloads. I suspect a quality rifle with a good barrel (like the Criterion that CMP uses) could be a 1 MOA rifle with good ammo like the Lapua .30-06 fodder. A scope would help! I'm working with iron sights and my Mark I Mod 0 64-year-old eyeballs.

 

[Hetzer]

Looks like pretty good shooting to me. Both rifle and rifleman.

 

[TX_Dan]

colossal waste of time and money.

I've been around a few Don McCoy match conditioned .308W Garands and rarely if ever saw high X count cleans at any yardline.

Not only does the rifle/ammo have to do but the shooter has to also. Are you that guy with iron sights?

That and a lot of Hawkeye….

 

[Dstoenner]

48 to 49 gns of Varget with a 155 sierra 2156 matchking or Berger 155.5 hybrid gives me a clean with high x count but is not a 1 moa load. That same load in my 1903 will almost all be in the x ring.

I have match conditioned my m1’s and they have a new Criterion barrel. But i have not bedded it so it passes the as issued. I did one as a 308 and i drilled and tapped the rear sight ant put a redfield 1 inch sight disk with .040 peep. Then replaced the front sight with a 22mm globe. In that configuration it holds the x ring. I am 74 and can’t see well for a blade but can still hold match iron sights.

David

 

[AZgeek]

48 to 49 gns of Varget with a 155 sierra 2156 matchking or Berger 155.5 hybrid gives me a clean with high x count but is not a 1 moa load. That same load in my 1903 will almost all be in the x ring.

I have match conditioned my m1’s and they have a new Criterion barrel. But i have not bedded it so it passes the as issued. I did one as a 308 and i drilled and tapped the rear sight ant put a redfield 1 inch sight disk with .040 peep. Then replaced the front sight with a 22mm globe. In that configuration it holds the x ring. I am 74 and can’t see well for a blade but can still hold match iron sights.

David

A 155 grain bullet seems to be the most accurate in both my Garands. The 155 Amax is the most accurate so far in my limited testing. I'll be testing the 155 Hornady BTHP (both non and cantilever versions) tomorrow as I do not want to use bullets with ballistic tips in this platform.

 

[boisepaw]

48 to 49 gns of Varget with a 155 sierra 2156 matchking or Berger 155.5 hybrid gives me a clean with high x count but is not a 1 moa load. That same load in my 1903 will almost all be in the x ring.

I have match conditioned my m1’s and they have a new Criterion barrel. But i have not bedded it so it passes the as issued. I did one as a 308 and i drilled and tapped the rear sight ant put a redfield 1 inch sight disk with .040 peep. Then replaced the front sight with a 22mm globe. In that configuration it holds the x ring. I am 74 and can’t see well for a blade but can still hold match iron sights.

David

I love your response David. I still have 6 years to get to the point that I shoot as well as you do!

I have heard from several sources that the 155 gr. SMK bullets are great with the Garand. Somehow I ended up with probably 500 of the 150 gr. SMK bullets...in older boxes. Would you expect there to be a significant benefit in going with the 155 gr. instead?

And I loaded my first 60 rounds with IMR 4895 primarily and a few with IMR 4064. I have tons of IMR 4895 and H 4895 as well as BL-C(2) and a few others that might be suitable for 30-06. But I am down to the last pound or so of Varget and IMR 4064. Have you tried any of those other powders?

And brass...I have a ton of once fired brass as well: 200 Lapua, 175 Hornady, 150 Federal, 75 +/- Lake City, 400-500 AMA and 400-500 HXP. Any thoughts about the brass?

Primers? I have probably five different types of large rifle primers to choose from.

Any other thoughts/ideas/suggestions you might have would be welcome.

 

[RegionRat]

Garands (all semi auto for that matter) are hard on brass, so get used to the concept that one of the early tasks is to guard against case failure with your process.

Working with fewer brass variations and bigger batches is less effort than working around many brass variations that force you to adjust your prep.

The 155's are very nice bullets and are popularized by Palma Competition and spill over into everything else.

ETA: Get one ready and head out to PHX in March to join the knuckle draggers....
https://thecmp.org/cmp-matches/west...ectronic,Ben Avery Shooting Facility, Arizona.

 

[boisepaw]

Thanks all for the responses. Any other input would be welcome.

 

[boisepaw]

I was fortunate to take the CMP Advanced Garand Maintenance clinic where one builds a Garand "Special". It shoots well. Attached are two photos. One is from the CMP Talladega range using their ultrasonic target system and my Danish surplus ammo. The second is a 16-round group with handloads. I suspect a quality rifle with a good barrel (like the Criterion that CMP uses) could be a 1 MOA rifle with good ammo like the Lapua .30-06 fodder. A scope would help! I'm working with iron sights and my Mark I Mod 0 64-year-old eyeballs.


View attachment 8015501View attachment 8015503

In looking for the right load...what is the process you went through with your rifles?

 

[Scttschnd]

46.5 gr of H4895 or IMR 4895 in my Issued M1 Service Grade. Using HXP brass I prep it can shoot cleans.
Remember, this is a sewer pipe rear aperture and a post Service Rifle. Do not expect to shoot 200/200x like a AR service rifle on the SR target at 200 yards. When I began Service Rifle I was told 46.5 gr and a 155-168 match projectile, go shoot.
Firing the M1 is far different than today's AR platform we compete with. Makes on appreciate Stoner's black rifle. For those making the P100 with an M1/M1a my hats off to ya today.

 

[AZgeek]

16 shots at each piece of tape at 50 yards to confirm I'll be using the Hornady 155 BTHP going forward. Load is 49gr of IMR 4064 with a COAL of 3.200". Rifle has a new Criterion barrel. Has potential in the hand of a skilled shooter. That would not be me!

 

[England]

In looking for the right load...what is the process you went through with your rifles?

Not much different than you'd do with your bolt rifles, but a few considerations. Powder selection is more limited due to the Garand being a gas gun. IMR 4064 or H4895 are good, traditional choices. I had a pile of factory second Sierra 175gr BTHP bullets, but 168 or 155 would be fine. I try and keep in mind that even my "pet" Garand "Special" from the CMP class with a new Criterion barrel isn't going to shoot at the level of my good 6.5 Creedmoor bolt guns!

More critical are the fundamentals of marksmanship with a gas gun using iron sights! First, you need a solid, consistent, ergonomic position either prone or from the bench. If you don't receive and manage the recoil consistently, the rifle won't group consistently. A good trigger helps, but that is pretty easy to achieve with the Garand. If you aren't using a mounted scope, getting a consistent sight picture can be an issue even with John Garand's superb iron sights. I made a "target jig" to put around my 100 yard paper target to help me visually insure that my front sight was consistently centered on the target. I calculated the width needed at 100 yards to match the front sight width and have a white area just wider than that, bordered by black. Better aiming yields better groups, but they'd frown on using this in Service Rifle competition!

I loved the ultrasonic system at CMP Talladega, but it is expensive. I now have a Shot Marker, and it is helpful to be able to see my impacts and groups without breaking my position to get to a spotting scope.

The Creedmoor 167gr .30-06 ammo from CMP is excellent and a good benchmark:
https://estore.thecmp.org/Catalog/Item/4C3006CS167-100

 

[Phil McGrath]

Hmm, I have a couple of M1’s one is a 06 H&R the other in a SA in 7.62mm both are Post War rifles. I see a lot of talk about load development and barrels but nothing about the mechanics of the platform.

Words of wisdom passed on too me from a much older Gent, a loose sloppy rack grade rifle with a new tube and good ammo doesn’t make for a better rifle. It’s the total package remember anything that moves should do so freely and anything that doesn’t move, shouldn’t.

 

[RegionRat]

Hmm, I have a couple of M1’s one is a 06 H&R the other in a SA in 7.62mm both are Post War rifles. I see a lot of talk about load development and barrels but nothing about the mechanics of the platform.

Words of wisdom passed on too me from a much older Gent, a loose sloppy rack grade rifle with a new tube and good ammo doesn’t make for a better rifle. It’s the total package remember anything that moves should do so freely and anything that doesn’t move, shouldn’t.

The fit to the stocks has often been a difficulty with the old surplus guns, but sometimes it is the key to getting one to shoot.

I forget how many were debugged by correcting loose stocks, but it is always high on my troubleshooting list.

 

[Phil McGrath]

The fit to the stocks has often been a difficulty with the old surplus guns, but sometimes it is the key to getting one to shoot.

I forget how many were debugged by correcting loose stocks, but it is always high on my troubleshooting list.

I will say that the M1 rabbit hole is very deep but the adventure is well worth the trip. There is nothing more enjoyable than shooting a fine tuned accurate M1 many of the new school “Rifle Men” just can’t wrap there head around them.

Stock fit is the foundation of any accurate rifle.

 

[Haney]

Hmm, I have a couple of M1’s one is a 06 H&R the other in a SA in 7.62mm both are Post War rifles. I see a lot of talk about load development and barrels but nothing about the mechanics of the platform.

Words of wisdom passed on too me from a much older Gent, a loose sloppy rack grade rifle with a new tube and good ammo doesn’t make for a better rifle. It’s the total package remember anything that moves should do so freely and anything that doesn’t move, shouldn’t.

A new barrel took my 4 moa rack grade rig and turned it into a fine shooter . Changed nothing but the barrel. Shoots as well as all my others that were/are in much better shape . Tore down, greased/lubed , new barrel . Its still rack grade innards doing just fine . Experience is the best teacher .

 

[Ex E6]

One can build Good ammunition for old tired war horses ; Behold ; Please note I spare No extras for targets . IF My pinion hadn't been stripped ,I'd have been able to elevate POI . I've since Fixed that by rebuilding and thus making a New sight . One enbloc all accounted for ,yes low and remained so until I realized the pinion was toothless !. Now have #25 firings on 1943-44 -53-54 LC cases , 0.5 gr. under max IMR 4895 & 4064 .
So I say it can be done

 

[boisepaw]

One can build Good ammunition for old tired war horses ; Behold ; Please note I spare No extras for targets . IF My pinion hadn't been stripped ,I'd have been able to elevate POI . I've since Fixed that by rebuilding and thus making a New sight . One enbloc all accounted for ,yes low and remained so until I realized the pinion was toothless !. Now have #25 firings on 1943-44 -53-54 LC cases , 0.5 gr. under max IMR 4895 & 4064 .
So I say it can be done

173 grain bullet? What bullet was that?

 

[Phil McGrath]

173 grain bullet? What bullet was that?

The original .30cal Match bullet used at Lake City and before that Frankfort Arsenal.

 

[FLIGHT762]

The 173 Gr. bullet was the old M-72 FMJ Match bullet.

 

[Dstoenner]

173 grain bullet? What bullet was that?

Armor piercing. Black tip

 

[TX_Dan]

Armor piercing. Black tip

The AP black tip was 165gr. Its the M72 projectile that was the 173gr.

 

[Ex E6]

173 grain bullet? What bullet was that?

M72 Match pulled ; I have K's as DCM dumped tons of them back in the day ,in favor of 168 new standard .

That group was from a rack grade Rifle of mine as I have a few Garands . By it's appearance it looks as if it might have been used to link a tank track of 3 during it's service life . So appearances can be deceiving .

I will be developing a few new loads so as to shoot My virgin UN-Issued 1943 Garand . Not a arsenal rebuild but a genuine UN-issued Garand . Decades ago My 1 St. Srgt. after #3 tours VN ended up in the Anniston Armory prior to retirement . He discovered a secret stash of #6 stored Never Issued Garands among other fossils ,which he somehow legally purchased as arsenal rebuilds . He and I served together and were tight ,so I got a call one afternoon and the Deal of a Lifetime . I won't say what I paid as watching grown Men cry has never set well with Me .
It was still in GI issued wrap cosmoline and ALL #'s matched Springfield awaited my unveiling in the diesel bath . Now I bought a # of Garands via DCM and knew what Armory arsenal refurbs were . It was a Big Deal to ME to take My Dad out shooting as he was an expert marksman ,1930's Marine Corp #6 years 40's-50's Navy #22 Medical out . He was 80 before I finally bested him shooting . Might say something for earlier Soldiers training regiment ?. Camera and light play tricks ,it's Parkerized Green hue genuine . Being a chemist I learned how to recreate that or near any shade of Parkerizing . I actually talked with the daughter of Clark Parker and subsequently received her fathers notes about a year later .
Those of you who might not know : Parker obtained the patent and rights to Parkerizing and several of his employees made various improvements over the years through his and son's company , Parker Rust Proof Phosphating Company of America . Variations of colors = Temperature as well as chemicals added at a particular stage of the process and final drying .