Precision rifle cleaning.
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for the love a god not another cleaning thread
It used to crack me up back in the Army when guys would freak out when I’d pull the cleaning rod and brush back through the bore.
The bullet being crammed down that barrel with the explosion behind it and people want to freak out when a brush goes down a certain way lol
There is probably not a more contentious subject than "barrel cleaning".
"barrel break in" is definitely up there.
But the good news is that we can now argue about " large sample testing"
"barrel break in" is definitely up there.
But the good news is that we can now argue about " large sample testing"
Barrel break in also makes me laugh. I see these guys at the range shooting 1 round and cleaning the shit out of the barrel for 15 minutes and then repeating for all day.
I have tried it , and I love it . I still use a rod and drill to this day has not harmed the inside of the barrel not even a little bit . admitting if I had an ultra sonic I would not use the drill but it has saved me hours on scrubbing and soaking to get heavy copper out . is it right or wrong no idea just know it's worked for me and it is easy to use .
...Yet I still manage to dull my steel knife blade cutting straw when I'm slicing open hay bales for the cows.
I'd rather argue about large sample groups though...it's the new rage.
I'd rather argue about large sample groups though...it's the new rage.
Thank you! It's so frustrating talking knives with people about how this steel is so much harder than that one... but even CARDBOARD will dull even high quality steel over time. Just maintenance your darn tools!
Bullets having more effect or not, damage the crown and see what happens to your groups.
Shoot it until it's not a shooter, clean it, shoot it until it's not a shooter, clean it, etc. shoot the barrel out, replace it, and repeat.
It's something not worth over complicating.
It's something not worth over complicating.
I started keeping a box cutter on the tractor for that very reason
I'm going to rebarrel my 308 in the near future. It may have some life left in it but I want a faster twist. The bore does look a little rough in places and it's rusted once before from being neglected for 4-5 years just standing in the safe so it has some pitting in it.
I'll post some pics later. Then I'll try out the Dewalt powered cleaning rod and see what happens.
I'll post some pics later. Then I'll try out the Dewalt powered cleaning rod and see what happens.
Does it shoot straight now? Find that out before making it a .338I'm going to rebarrel my 308 in the near future. It may have some life left in it but I want a faster twist. The bore does look a little rough in places and it's rusted once before from being neglected for 4-5 years just standing in the safe so it has some pitting in it.
I'll post some pics later. Then I'll try out the Dewalt powered cleaning rod and see what happens.
I have a cheap carbide knife sharpener by the side door. I hit it pretty quickly about every other day.
I just want to see somebody repeat this process on a relatively new (<500 rounds) benchrest or f-class rig...with before and after groups at a moderate distance.
Doing this to a 4K+ worn out tube that isn't anything but a tomato stake anymore isn't going to change my mind. Slap that brand new pipe on there and hog it out with your Dewalt with some before and after groups and you will make me a convert.
Plus you'll revolutionize barrel cleaning, and everyone will remember your name.
Doing this to a 4K+ worn out tube that isn't anything but a tomato stake anymore isn't going to change my mind. Slap that brand new pipe on there and hog it out with your Dewalt with some before and after groups and you will make me a convert.
Plus you'll revolutionize barrel cleaning, and everyone will remember your name.
Any one have links or a have done long term cleaning vs not testing?
Eric Cortina did and interview with a Hornady guy and one of the points he made was the biggest difference they saw was in velocity and pressure increase. Not much of an effect on group size.
some where in this interview
edit- just realized it was actually this interview with Brian litz.
Eric Cortina did and interview with a Hornady guy and one of the points he made was the biggest difference they saw was in velocity and pressure increase. Not much of an effect on group size.
some where in this interview
edit- just realized it was actually this interview with Brian litz.
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It is funny. When lapping, the compound is embedded into the softer material to abrade the harder material.
“ But the brush isnt as hard as the barrel “
Yeah it isnt the brush that I am worried about.
I think that video was in response to some pics @Frank Green had posted that showed massive gouges cutting through the lands that was done by aggressive cleaning with some kind of lapping compound .
Recently used this method to clean a nasty carbon ring on a creed- I plugged the muzzle and soaked the barrel in CLR for about an hour, then chucked up a bronze brush in a variable speed Milwaukee drill and hit it.. Rifle is still shooting well, and haven’t seen a drop in velocity either.. Would I do this on a Gucci rifle, not sure but it was kind of liberating, and saved an assload of time.
Paper, including cardboard paper, contains kaolinite or calcium carbonate. You're not just cutting cellulose fibers. Carboard is also not a "fine" product and contains a lot of other random impurities and abrasive particles.
I have found over many years of shooting registered skeet that one needs to pick and choose the experts you will listen too as every swinging dick on a range has an opinion about (fill in the blank).
So, I chose to go with @Frank Green over @orkan on this subject and Frank's view...if I don't fuck up and misstate it...is to never use a brush with abrasives. And yes, he did show that picture of the barrel with the deep grooves and that will indeed leave an lastly impression, IMO.
Frank was kind enough to spend some time on the phone with me and I've adopted his method of using 40x or JB Bore Cleaning Compound on a bit of an oversized patch wrapped around a Parker Hale style jag. I recently bought VFG pellets and appropriate jag...hey, its winter and I'm bored....but haven't yet had a chance to use them.
Now, on a shotgun barrel...I def chuck a brass rod in a drill and go to town. On a rifle barrel...eh, no.
Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean that I'm not handicapping myself by an insufficient cleaning regimen. I really have no idea and I don't shoot so well that I've seen any impact from my cleaning routine.
Its just what I do. And I don't feel the need to see bright SS the entire length of the bore and 360 degrees around. I keep the barrels fairly clean...I use Bore Tech also...and I do def try to stay on top of carbon ring deposits just past the end of the neck. I'm happy with that at this time.
I may be screwing up...but, I'm very confident in the info that Frank has conveyed to us all on here and confidence is 95% of the battle for a total neurotic like myself! hahaha
So, I chose to go with @Frank Green over @orkan on this subject and Frank's view...if I don't fuck up and misstate it...is to never use a brush with abrasives. And yes, he did show that picture of the barrel with the deep grooves and that will indeed leave an lastly impression, IMO.
Frank was kind enough to spend some time on the phone with me and I've adopted his method of using 40x or JB Bore Cleaning Compound on a bit of an oversized patch wrapped around a Parker Hale style jag. I recently bought VFG pellets and appropriate jag...hey, its winter and I'm bored....but haven't yet had a chance to use them.
Now, on a shotgun barrel...I def chuck a brass rod in a drill and go to town. On a rifle barrel...eh, no.
Doesn't mean I'm right. Doesn't mean that I'm not handicapping myself by an insufficient cleaning regimen. I really have no idea and I don't shoot so well that I've seen any impact from my cleaning routine.
Its just what I do. And I don't feel the need to see bright SS the entire length of the bore and 360 degrees around. I keep the barrels fairly clean...I use Bore Tech also...and I do def try to stay on top of carbon ring deposits just past the end of the neck. I'm happy with that at this time.
I may be screwing up...but, I'm very confident in the info that Frank has conveyed to us all on here and confidence is 95% of the battle for a total neurotic like myself! hahaha
Using a brush with an abrasive, I believe is that he said would wreck a barrel. I don't remember any exchange between the two over the subject.
I’ve got three barrels in the shop. One is a 308win. Has only 500 rounds on it. Cleaned it with an abrasive and a brush. Shooter took or should I say changed the bore and groove size by a full .001”. Accuracy is junk.
Another barrel with 110 rounds fired on it. It’s a 260AI. This guy didn’t wreck one but wrecked three barrels in a row!
The pic I post a lot is a 284win with 800 rounds on it. The barrel started having accuracy issues at 100 rounds! Right now the bore measures .279” and the grooves are at .2855”. When we made that barrel it was at .277” x .284”. So the shooter basically polished out a full .002” out of the bore (tops of the lands) and at least a full .001“ out of the grooves.
I’ve also got data on another 308 barrel. Barrel shot 1/2” groups at 200 yards. If I recall the barrel only has 250 rounds on it. He cleaned it once with Flitz and a brush. Then it went to shooting 2” groups at a 200 yards.
Yes the process on how the guy cleaned the 284 win F class barrel was repeated to the T on a brand new barrel. Same damaged showed just as fast.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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It was KG2 bore paste and being used with a bronze brush.
I’ll have to watch the video with Jayden and Erik. Haven’t watched it yet.
I had a 22-250 that I maybe cleaned a half dozen times over the course of its life and it hammered right up to the day it didn't. So I cleaned it buy it didn't get any better. This was in my pre borescope days so I shined a light through the bore and there was what looked like shadows in the grooves of the bore. I concluded that it was just shot out and the three gallon zip locks of brass I had seemed to confirm my theory. Some of it had had been loaded several times.
The gun would still hold an inch at 100 yards though and I guy I knew wanted it for a beginner deer rifle for his kids, so I sold it to him. That was at least twelve years ago, and as far as I know they're still whacking deer with it.
So, you think a brass brush will hog out a stainless steel barrel??
Also, your ask has already been done. Lou Murdica cleans his barrel with a drill. He uses a nylon brush only because metal brushes with flake off and then he has to clean the piece of the brush out.
If you’re not familiar with Lou, give it a look. This is years old news. Plenty of top BR and F class use drills with brushes.
They just don’t worry about showing the world on forums because people just kick and scream saying it doesn’t work.
Same with the PRS crowd insisting people don’t shoot at 25+ power. Many of the top shooters shoot stages at max or high power and just don’t want to argue on forums.
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The abrasive is the real issue though correct?
Non abrasive materials with a brush made of a material softer than the barrel material shouldn’t have any negative effect?
Yes.
The abrasives may come in a tube/tub, or as dirt, dust, carbon ect.
A relatively clean BR barrel, in a clean environment, with a new clean brush. You may be able to get away with it.
My problem isn't a metallurgical one. I'm not smart enough to carry on those conversations.
My position is that if you are going to make an over the top video with drastic extremes to prove a point...use your new new barrel instead of something that you pulled out from underneath your workbench (that's where I keep my old barrels at least). Then give us some sort of data points to back up your position. A borescope (I own one too) isn't going to provide any way of measuring if you took half a thousandth off your lands while you just broke free and spun a bunch of abrasive material against them (your point with Lou using nylon because metal brushes break off and leave material is noted here).
I have no doubt that the guy is a stand up dude. However if you want to change people's minds, perform it on something that has value still, not something that is worthless. I'd be a lot less skeptical if he had chucked up one of his nice rigs and done it on a serviceable barrel. I'm sure it is inadvertent, but it came off like the elixir salesman who says it isn't harmful - while making the dude strapped to the chair drink it. That is my point.
You get some hard data points that show I'm not going to significantly degrade my barrel's life, and I'll be right there next to you with a drill in hand. I am not stuck to anything, I promise.
I'm only a few years into the "money into noise" hobby, but as someone who's dealt a lot with metallurgy, it seems like there are a lot of folks cleaning far too often. From the forces and actions involved in internal ballistics, it seems to me that the worst enemy would be build up in the chamber and not the actual lands/grooves of the barrel itself!
You just moved the goal post. I gave you an example of a record setting BR and F class shooter who uses a drill. Without any degradation to precision/accuracy (as he obviously wouldn't do it if it mattered).
Can you give us an example of how using non abrasive chemicals every single day in a barrel would harm the barrel?
What exactly hurts the barrel if the chemicals are non abrasive and the brushes are far less hard than the barrel?
Where does the damage come from and why, explained scientifically, from your experience in metallurgy?
For one it depends on the chemicals or type of cleaner being used.
How long is it being used for during cleaning?
Also is the person mixing chemicals in a jar and or in the barrel? The chemicals can react differently with one another and react with the fouling in the bore and cause a etching/pitting process to start.
Same thing when you hear.... I don't clean it for a long time! I'll guarantee you that if you put it away dirty for x amount of time and the environment you are in....the barrel and the fouling will react with the air itself and the barrel will corrode it will pit.
I did a test on two different barrels with CLR. First barrel was cm steel and blued. Let it sit overnight. Not even a full 24 hours. The bore was etched and it ate the bluing off the barrel. Then I did it to a ss barrel. Overnight...nothing seemed to happen. Let it sit for 5 days wet.... the etching had started.
so let me try and wrap my head around this amazing new finding..
use proper firearms cleaning products like boretech, hoppes etc
dont use a old school steel segmented rod when possible (in field etc)
use a brush when there is tough build up
clean after a range session
dont let it sit dirty to long
use a bore guide when possible
and magically you will have a barrel that shoots well for its entire life, until the fire cracking/heat kills it
absolutely ground breaking information
to much to handle...please make it stop
use proper firearms cleaning products like boretech, hoppes etc
dont use a old school steel segmented rod when possible (in field etc)
use a brush when there is tough build up
clean after a range session
dont let it sit dirty to long
use a bore guide when possible
and magically you will have a barrel that shoots well for its entire life, until the fire cracking/heat kills it
absolutely ground breaking information
to much to handle...please make it stop
As someone who is far, far away from the engineering arts, the whole “soft wearing away the hard” has always confused me, but yet it happens all around nature.
What does “wear” even mean?
Engineers are not always the best explainers. Sort of like most physics and especially math teachers.
It’s not clear cut, and I do not have the knowledge or expertise to explain it well. I’ll try my best.
It’s not just how hard/soft something is, it’s also how fast the materials are moving, what other particles are in-between the hard/soft, friction, melting, pH/corrosiveness, temperature, impacts, pressure, particle charge, time, etc.
For example, how can a river cut through granite? (I know this is not an exact analogue about hardness, as water isn’t a solid, and particles in the water help the cutting. But see the end of my post)
How are you scratching your sapphire watch crystal? Are you sure it’s a scratch, technically?
Why don’t brake rotors last forever? (Not talking about warping)
Why do carbide-tipped circular saw blades ever dull? (Not talking about hitting nails)
How can fishing line groove the metal guides on a fishing pole? (ceramic guides have less issues)
Diamonds…how are diamonds polished?
Back to: What does “wear” even mean? I am pretty sure it’s not just about hardness & scratching.
My guess is that thinking about the above examples and indeed, the entire brush-bore-abrasives-chemicals (i.e. CLR) issue, in terms of just hardness/scratching is the first mistake. It’s not just that, there are many other factors.
Look here for starters.
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Nobody is denying a softer material can wear harder one.
The point is when done properly it will not cause a noticeable negative effect. Improperly... ehh you could fuck shit up with one stroke. It would take a shit ton of effort to wear out a good steel barrel with a bronze brush and proper cleaning solvents technique.
It appears one of the top barrel manufactures says leaving the debris in your barrel will cause corrosion and pitting. Which I am assuming is more detrimental than the immeasurable wear from a proper clean after use?
Please reread some of @Feniks Technologies posts on this thread and tell me otherwise? He’s a standup dude, but he’s wrong here. On this forum, in general, you’ll often read that a soft thing cannot scratch a hard thing.
What is missing is that “scratch” means one thing on the Mohs scale and quite another in layman’s terms. “Wear” is more like it to people like me way back in the peanut gallery.
Uh, you’ve somewhat reiterated one of the unspoken axioms of my whole post above?
Also, take a gander at the link below for example damage. It’s not as hard to wreck your barrel as you think. Especially if you have OCD.
How and when to utilize abrasive bore cleaners
After reading @Frank Green talk about cleaning and carbon ring removal I decided it’s time I take care of my neglected barrels. Some of my barrels are getting up there in round count, and cleaning carbon is getting harder and harder. Jb bore paste is what Iv seen some recommend as a mild...
www.snipershide.com
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you are miss representing what people are saying
the point is the amount of effort it would take for a bronze brush alone is in the realm of improper. No one is saying it can't with the caveat that you aren't doing it like a retard. at which point the problem is not the tool but the operator. judging your response the latter seems it might fall in your realm.Please reread some of @Feniks Technologies posts on this thread and tell me otherwise? He’s a standup dude, but he’s wrong here. On this forum, in general, you’ll often read that a soft thing cannot scratch a hard thing.
What is missing is that “scratch” means one thing on the Mohs scale and quite another in layman’s terms. “Wear” is more like it to people like me way back in the peanut gallery.
Uh, you’ve somewhat reiterated one of the unspoken axioms of my whole post above?
Also, take a gander at the link below for example damage. It’s not as hard to wreck your barrel as you think. Especially if you have OCD.
How and when to utilize abrasive bore cleaners
After reading @Frank Green talk about cleaning and carbon ring removal I decided it’s time I take care of my neglected barrels. Some of my barrels are getting up there in round count, and cleaning carbon is getting harder and harder. Jb bore paste is what Iv seen some recommend as a mild...
Classic barrel cleaning thread where everyone's opinion is right and other people are stupid.
You wound me, o’ capitalization-master, catching me “miss representing” everyone. Sigh…
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This is exactly what happened to my 308. I was sick when I dug it out and cleaned it before I was about ti start shooting it again. Pushed a patch through it and it came out orange!
Finished cleaning it, put a scope back on it, shot it and it shot this.
A
Top target, low right shot was first round after putting the gun back together. It had been out of the stock also. Dialed up and left and there's four in that hole.
Bottom group was shot a year later. With the same ammo. 168 fgmm.
Shot it again today for a baseline, I'm going to scope it then Dewalt it. For better or worse, we shall see.
I really didn't intend for this to happen. Just wanted to see if anybody had done it and what their experiences were. I'm going to do it then post the results.
I'm in the middle of load development for a 460s&w and my 300winmag to go hunting next weekend though so results may be slow coming.
I wish I could find the video I saw a while ago where Bryan Litz says he uses abrasives with no issues to accuracy. Sincerest apologies if I am misquoting him.
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