PRS Talk PRS Safety Culture

[davere]

There's nothing you're going to do or implement that will stop that.

I think there's a compelling thing there for the NRL - but I may not understand how things really work enough to know that for sure. With the relative level of support the NRL purports to provide to the match director (assistance with prize tables, marketing, etc), there's at least incentive to want to be part of that series for an MD. It still won't stop outlaw matches, obviously, but it might be leveraged to help drive culture within NRL.

 

[Mormegil87]

@davere that's where I agree the top down part of the equation is important. Show MDs that you'll support them, make them want to be a part of your organization, make the want to follow the rules you set forth. Get them to buy into the system rather than order them to or dictate to them that they will be in the system.

Then you can start dropping the hammer on the safety violations because the MDs, ROs and Shooters will not want to see the match kicked out of the series and lose all of the benefits that the series provides. Thus they will buy in and you will gain compliance and a culture change from the bottom up as well. MDs and ROs will then have incentive to hold their shooters accountable even if they are friends or sponsors.

That's what I mean when I say it will take both sides to fix this issue.

 

[Holliday]

As stated above, it’s impossible to carry your rifle with the handle in “suitcase” carry without flagging ever person, rock, tree, ground squirrel, the guy free recoiling the barricade at 400yds.......

Jesus......I can see how this is a problem with folks who can’t handle weapons correctly. I have used one of these in crowded environments and NEVER flagged anyone.

Anyone who cannot handle a rifle safely with one of these on, needs to turn their guns in. Just because there is a handle does not mean you must use that handle in situations where it cannot be done safely. Unlike the toe guard we are talking about user stupidity here. AR-15s sometimes have handles in the same area. Are we going to blame the gun, for folks using that handle improperly?

Having said that, I can see the rational for banning them from gaming etc. again because of user stupidity. Furthermore, my rifles always have slings. I believe this makes the rifle safer to handle with or without a scope cover and cetainly easier to control if the rifle falls. Again though, I have seen folks with slung rifles to some terrible sweeping of others. Slings fault ? No.........

 

[morganlamprecht]

Jesus......I can see how this is a problem with folks who can’t handle weapons correctly. I have used one of these in crowded environments and NEVER flagged anyone.

Anyone who cannot handle a rifle safely with one of these on, needs to turn their guns in. Just because there is a handle does not mean you must use that handle in situations where it cannot be done safely. Unlike the toe guard we are talking about user stupidity here. AR-15s sometimes have handles in the same area. Are we going to blame the gun, for folks using that handle improperly?

Having said that, I can see the rational for banning them from gaming etc. again because of user stupidity. Furthermore, my rifles always have slings. I believe this makes the rifle safer to handle with or without a scope cover and cetainly easier to control if the rifle falls. Again though, I have seen folks with slung rifles to some terrible sweeping of others. Slings fault ? No.........

well if everyone used their rifle safely 100% of the time we wouldnt have this thread...none of the issues brought up in this thread are actually the fault of the equipment, its the people using them...youre arguing just to argue...its not a good design

 

[Dthomas3523]

Jesus......I can see how this is a problem with folks who can’t handle weapons correctly. I have used one of these in crowded environments and NEVER flagged anyone.

Anyone who cannot handle a rifle safely with one of these on, needs to turn their guns in. Just because there is a handle does not mean you must use that handle in situations where it cannot be done safely. Unlike the toe guard we are talking about user stupidity here. AR-15s sometimes have handles in the same area. Are we going to blame the gun, for folks using that handle improperly?

Having said that, I can see the rational for banning them from gaming etc. again because of user stupidity. Furthermore, my rifles always have slings. I believe this makes the rifle safer to handle with or without a scope cover and cetainly easier to control if the rifle falls. Again though, I have seen folks with slung rifles to some terrible sweeping of others. Slings fault ? No.........

If design a car with a TV screen in the windshield, is it the car’s fault when everyone runs off the road?

Nope.

Is is a retarded design that probably shouldn’t be around.

Yep.

(There’s also a reason you used to get your dick slapped when you picked up an m16 or m4 by the carry handle)

 

[Conrad]

Lots of good discussion.

I wanted to address the incident that started this post. First, I’m glad you’re alright man. Second, this isn’t a freak accident. It’s a very real scenario that should serve as a reminder. How many times have you heard guys talking about how they were up til 2am the night before loading ammo? Or, what happens with your reloading when the wife or kids interrupt?

If you’re dropping powder in all your cases in a loading block it’s an easy check to look down in the necks and ensure they are charged before you start seating bullets. However, what if you’re loading on a progressive and charging and then seating bullets, particularly if say you have a Prometheus above the press and you can blow and go, now did you dump powder or not before the toddler came running in? Better check.

I bring all this up because I had a squib load last year at a 2 day match. I was clipping right along hitting targets having a good stage, and then a round doesn’t go off. I quickly eject and chamber the next but it won’t go. When you’re in a rhythm and on the clock it’s tough to slow down and process what just happened; but any time you start trying to force a bolt by ramming or hitting it, you just need to stop and think about what just happened, make the rifle safe and then inform the RO that you’re done and need to troubleshoot. I did try pulling the bolt back say 1/3 and closing it again before I slowed down, but it wasn’t budging so I quit. I’m not tooting my horn, but this is what I did and thank goodness because I was directly behind the rifle prone. Bullet popped out pretty easy with a cleaning rod.

Suffice it to say if the rifle just goes pop, get up, you’re done for a bit.

If you are loading on a progressive in big lots it’s not a bad idea to invest in a counting scale, weigh a few rounds, and then weigh Batches of 25 to 50 and see if the count is correct.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I’ve had factory 22 squibs before, and then my experience at a match so I don’t see it as a freak thing. I wanted to bring about some awareness to them and ways to mitigate their occurrence.

 

[morganlamprecht]

reloading is a big issue, but its hard to get into people hard heads

everyone wants to go fast as possible, cause they think speed can beat their bad wind calling

i see some guys match after match banging their bolts open and/or closed...ive told a few of them they should just stick to factory lol

lots of guys "know how to reload"...a lot less of them actually understand all the moving pieces involved in it

mistakes can happen, but when its continuous for some people...its not just a mistake

 

[Conrad]

Agreed. Everyone wants a slick action with easy bolt lift....but then push max pressure.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

Lots of good discussion.

I wanted to address the incident that started this post. First, I’m glad you’re alright man. Second, this isn’t a freak accident. It’s a very real scenario that should serve as a reminder. How many times have you heard guys talking about how they were up til 2am the night before loading ammo? Or, what happens with your reloading when the wife or kids interrupt?

If you’re dropping powder in all your cases in a loading block it’s an easy check to look down in the necks and ensure they are charged before you start seating bullets. However, what if you’re loading on a progressive and charging and then seating bullets, particularly if say you have a Prometheus above the press and you can blow and go, now did you dump powder or not before the toddler came running in? Better check.

I bring all this up because I had a squib load last year at a 2 day match. I was clipping right along hitting targets having a good stage, and then a round doesn’t go off. I quickly eject and chamber the next but it won’t go. When you’re in a rhythm and on the clock it’s tough to slow down and process what just happened; but any time you start trying to force a bolt by ramming or hitting it, you just need to stop and think about what just happened, make the rifle safe and then inform the RO that you’re done and need to troubleshoot. I did try pulling the bolt back say 1/3 and closing it again before I slowed down, but it wasn’t budging so I quit. I’m not tooting my horn, but this is what I did and thank goodness because I was directly behind the rifle prone. Bullet popped out pretty easy with a cleaning rod.

Suffice it to say if the rifle just goes pop, get up, you’re done for a bit.

If you are loading on a progressive in big lots it’s not a bad idea to invest in a counting scale, weigh a few rounds, and then weigh Batches of 25 to 50 and see if the count is correct.

Sorry for the lengthy post. I’ve had factory 22 squibs before, and then my experience at a match so I don’t see it as a freak thing. I wanted to bring about some awareness to them and ways to mitigate their occurrence.

I've had squbs happen twice to me at matches with a 6 Creedmoor. I'm not sure if it's purely neck tension, or a combination of factors (neck tension, primer used, and case capacity) but neither one caused ther bullet to leave the case. I rolled the bolt, watch the case with projectile flop out of the ejection port, and the next round fed perfectly in each instance. I didn't even know they'd been no-powder squibs until I recovered the ejected round after the stage and saw the discoloration around the projectile where the gas escaped. The bullet was pushed a little further out of the case, but was still very secure in the neck.

Doing this intentionally under controlled circumstances would make an interesting test if there were an easy way to do it without risking damage to the barrel if the projectile got stuck.

 

[LawnMM]

? For some levity, some good points being made here, particularly about covers that encourage suitcase carry ?

 

[Mormegil87]

Holy shit @LawnMM

 

[BLKWLFK9]

At the match this weekend, we had a shooters gun go off by itself when no one was touching it. He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off. Obviously that gun was not safe and to the shooter had to put it in his truck. He wasnt DQd but the rifle was. He finished the match with my buddies AI. That's a scary situation.

 

[Sheldon N]

He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off.

That's on the RO. Number one thing I watch when RO'ing is bolt up before any movement at all. Whether during the stage transitions or after the timer. I will yell "BOLT UP! BOLT UP!" at a shooter until they do it.

Had to DQ a shooter at a match last weekend, jostling into position and touched off a round about 20 yards off target. This was on a self-RO'd match too. I was shooting first then RO'ing for the rest of the squad.

 

[Diver160651]

Just saying cased rifles are NOT necessarily safe. I have heard over the years of serval rounds going through truck cabs and one very unlucky gunsmith who took a customers cased rifle at a range and was killed when he attempted to place the bag in his truck..

I personally saw a live round (not at a match) come out of a gun that was in a case..

I have personally seen a live fire exorcise almost go bad when the guy slid his gun into his scabbard/ruck and a round went off as the gun was slid in muzzle first.. the pack luckily was in a safe direction and now has a drain hole in the bottom.

These with heavy, heavy triggers..

Honestly, fast forward to today and 4oz triggers.. and the bags do not give me a ton of comfort when they are waiving all over.. There are simple solutions for that as well..

 

[generalzip]

At the match this weekend, we had a shooters gun go off by itself when no one was touching it. He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off. Obviously that gun was not safe and to the shooter had to put it in his truck. He wasnt DQd but the rifle was. He finished the match with my buddies AI. That's a scary situation.

Damn that's crazy. Honestly I'd prefer he was totally DQ'd. You are responsible for your equipment. He left the stage with a loaded rifle bolt down and set the rifle down. To bring something that unsafe (knowingly or unknowingly) deserves a match DQ so you learn to never ever bring something that dangerous to a match again and triple check your equipment. That's just unacceptable on so many levels in my opinion. I understand equipment fails, but something that dangerous has no place on any range.

 

[acronut]

At the match this weekend, we had a shooters gun go off by itself when no one was touching it. He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off. Obviously that gun was not safe and to the shooter had to put it in his truck. He wasnt DQd but the rifle was. He finished the match with my buddies AI. That's a scary situation.

I have serious issues with this!!! Why wasn’t the shooter DQd???? The shooter left the line with a loaded and hot rifle. Zero consequences for several major safety violations. If we keep this stupid crap up people are going to die. We aren’t taking this game serious and are being completely complacent. It needs to stop and every MD/RO and PRS/NRL etc leader better lay down the laws and enforce them. Every time all the time.

 

[Diver160651]

At the match this weekend, we had a shooters gun go off by itself when no one was touching it. He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off. Obviously that gun was not safe and to the shooter had to put it in his truck. He wasnt DQd but the rifle was. He finished the match with my buddies AI. That's a scary situation.

Fuck that is like a California gun law.. Yep, it is the rifle that hurts people.. bad rifle.. DQ the rifle?? Come-on that's dumber than Forest Gump.

This is EXACTLY what is s wrong.. Lets count the number of safety violations he had and was still allowed to continue...

 

[davere]

From the sound of it, the shooter didn't leave the line with a loaded rifle. He grounded the rifle (or it was already on the ground), and he stood up after timing out. Sounds like a broken gun, not (necessarily) an unsafe shooter. Most sports that I'm aware of allow the shooter to recover from broken gear - including cases where the gun goes off unintentionally (for instance, a gun that unintentionally doubles or goes full auto in USPSA/IPSC will result in the shooter having to withdraw the gun from the match until it's demonstrably repaired, but he can continue in the match with the repaired gun or a backup).

"DQ the gun" is the same as saying "you can't continue the match with broken/unsafe equipment". It addresses the one thing you can say for sure - that gun has a problem. You can't know if the shooter was knowingly shooting an unsafe gun, or if the problem developed during the shooting of that stage. Mechanical devices do break or degrade - and it's part of the reason for the gun safety rule "don't point the gun at anything you're not willing to destroy".

 

[Lowlight]

I would like more details on the rifle, the trigger weight, the stage round count etc.

A gun firing with nobody near is a serious issue, the details will matter.

 

[Diver160651]

From the sound of it, the shooter didn't leave the line with a loaded rifle. He grounded the rifle (or it was already on the ground), and he stood up after timing out. Sounds like a broken gun, not (necessarily) an unsafe shooter. Most sports that I'm aware of allow the shooter to recover from broken gear - including cases where the gun goes off unintentionally (for instance, a gun that unintentionally doubles or goes full auto in USPSA/IPSC will result in the shooter having to withdraw the gun from the match until it's demonstrably repaired, but he can continue in the match with the repaired gun or a backup).

"DQ the gun" is the same as saying "you can't continue the match with broken/unsafe equipment". It addresses the one thing you can say for sure - that gun has a problem. You can't know if the shooter was knowingly shooting an unsafe gun, or if the problem developed during the shooting of that stage. Mechanical devices do break or degrade - and it's part of the reason for the gun safety rule "don't point the gun at anything you're not willing to destroy".

Help me understand how a open bolt BEFORE a position move, a mag removed BEFORE leaving the final position along with the visual chamber check BEFORE coming off the obstacle, can result in a round going down range when he sets his gun down..

He FUCKED up SEVERAL TIMES before the gun did anything... if this part is true (set the gun down on the ground pointed down range).. Maybe the post was worded incorrectly?

BTW I have seen and I am sure a lot of others have two, Uber light triggers release the sear on bolt close, sending a round. But guys with good practice are at least on glass as the bolt closes sending the round very near the target. If you're interested in seeing this, you can easily duplicate this with a two stage TAC Pro by running the weight too low and not adjusting the sear properly.

 

[morganlamprecht]

i agree with equipment issues needing some wiggle room...stuff breaks

the root issue is what we preach to new (and lots of experienced shooters) constantly...

BOLT UP UNLESS SIGHTS ARE ON TARGET...shooter failed to comply

 

[Sheldon N]

From the sound of it, the shooter didn't leave the line with a loaded rifle. He grounded the rifle (or it was already on the ground), and he stood up after timing out. Sounds like a broken gun, not (necessarily) an unsafe shooter.

If he was shooting in the prone and then stood up and left his gun in position before anything happened, then I'd cut him a bit of slack. If he was shooting from some other alternate position then set his rifle on the ground next to the barricade, that's the same thing as transitioning on a closed bolt.

Either way, the first thing the RO should be doing when the time stops is "Bolt up, mag out, chamber flag". That is BEFORE any recovery of brass/gear etc. Even prone that should be the first thing before you stand up.

I think if you want to get into the rules, here's what they say.

1.4.6 All AD/NDs will result in an immediate Match DQ.
1.4.7 Movement or transition during a COF with a round in the chamber or a closed bolt will result in the shooter being stopped, forced to clear their chamber and made to move back to the last shooting position while still on the clock for a first offense. Once the shooter has returned to the last firing point, he or she will continue with the rest of the COF. A second offense will result in a stage DQ. Third offense will result in a removal of the offending shooter from the competition.

IMO the gun going off, even if the shooter wasn't touching it, is an AD/ND, therefore shooter should have been DQ. There's no exception in the rule for it being the "gun's fault". It's the shooters fault for bringing an unsafe gun to the competition.

What is an RO supposed to do if the shooter says "I didn't touch the trigger, that was a sear malfunction" when they torch a round into the dirt off a barricade? It's not the "why" the AD/ND happened, it's that it happened at all.

 

[davere]

Help me understand how a open bolt BEFORE a position move, a mag removed BEFORE leaving the Position along with the visual chamber check BEFORE coming off the obstacle, can result in a round going down range when he sets his gun down..

He FUCKED up SEVERAL TIMES before the gun did anything... if this part is true (set the gun down on the ground pointed down range).. Maybe the post was worded incorrectly?

Help me understand how you know he was moving (and therefore had an open bolt)? The original post mentioned nothing of the sort? I read it as "timer went off, sets gun on ground as is", and took from that (that the bolt was already closed) that he was in the act of engaging a target? It also sounds like the rifle was not moving when it went off (shooter not touching it, not being bumped, etc)

The RO should've stopped him and made him unload the gun, and he should've done that any way on his own. All definitely true - but given this thread (and how absolutely shittily many matches are run with regards to safety), I'm not at all surprised by those things.

 

[davere]

What is an RO supposed to do if the shooter says "I didn't touch the trigger, that was a sear malfunction" when they torch a round into the dirt off a barricade? It's not the "why" the AD/ND happened, it's that it happened at all.

Generally, in other sports, the RO doesn't worry about it, and DQs the shooter. The shooter then needs to prove to the MD (or other appropriate official) that the gun is actually broken.

 

[Lowlight]

When he stood up from the rifle bolt up is the correct position

The shooter messed up as noted, walking away from it with the bolt closed is the issue, bolt up is automatic

 

[Sheldon N]

Generally, in other sports, the RO doesn't worry about it, and DQs the shooter. The shooter then needs to prove to the MD (or other appropriate official) that the gun is actually broken.

It was a bit of a rhetorical question. The way I read the rules, there is no basis for an appeal or not being DQ'd.

 

[generalzip]

From the sound of it, the shooter didn't leave the line with a loaded rifle. He grounded the rifle (or it was already on the ground), and he stood up after timing out. Sounds like a broken gun, not (necessarily) an unsafe shooter. Most sports that I'm aware of allow the shooter to recover from broken gear - including cases where the gun goes off unintentionally (for instance, a gun that unintentionally doubles or goes full auto in USPSA/IPSC will result in the shooter having to withdraw the gun from the match until it's demonstrably repaired, but he can continue in the match with the repaired gun or a backup).

"DQ the gun" is the same as saying "you can't continue the match with broken/unsafe equipment". It addresses the one thing you can say for sure - that gun has a problem. You can't know if the shooter was knowingly shooting an unsafe gun, or if the problem developed during the shooting of that stage. Mechanical devices do break or degrade - and it's part of the reason for the gun safety rule "don't point the gun at anything you're not willing to destroy".

Doesn't matter. Bolt up and back, mag out before you leave the gun. PERIOD. If he followed those rules the gun would have never gone off without being in his hands. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction. In the central region where I shoot that round could have gone to the next property and killed someone. Any way you look at it, it's a AD and qualifies as a match DQ.

 

[Diver160651]

Help me understand how you know he was moving (and therefore had an open bolt)? The original post mentioned nothing of the sort? I read it as "timer went off, sets gun on ground as is", and took from that (that the bolt was already closed) that he was in the act of engaging a target? It also sounds like the rifle was not moving when it went off (shooter not touching it, not being bumped, etc)

Maybe we are reading the verb incorrectly. If I am shooting prone the gun is already sitting, correct? So ya, if I or he, just looked up and was still on target and on the gun went off as he was getting ready to rack the bolt, then DQ the gun.. if it fired far from the target, DQ the shooter.


But if he "sat the gun down" that implies he moved the gun from a firing position and was NOT on target.. and thus violated a bunch of steps.. and should be DQ'd without even a question

 

[Sheldon N]

So ya, if he just looked up and was still on target and the gun when it went off as he was getting ready to rack the bolt, then DQ the gun..

I don't think you can really go down this road with AD/ND. Shooter's responsibility is to both conduct himself in a safe manner in accordance with the rules, and to ensure that he is bringing equipment that is properly functioning and safe. Both responsibilities carry equal weight and should have equal consequences.

 

[morganlamprecht]

a lot of these growing issues being caused during stages are the added speed factors and less precision IMO

stages being set up now that run 10 positions in 90 seconds at full size ipsc's at 400 yds...thats not a precision rifle stage to me, i could run that with an ar15

its one thing when time is eaten from trying to get stable enough to make a good shot on a smaller target, but when the only difficult thing about a stage is the time is blazing fast...its going to cause more safety issues (moving bolt down, racking bolt before on target, ND/AD from rushing. etc)...especially for inexperienced shooters

 

[morganlamprecht]

I don't think you can really go down this road with AD/ND. Shooter's responsibility is to both conduct himself in a safe manner in accordance with the rules, and to ensure that he is bringing equipment that is properly functioning and safe. Both responsibilities carry equal weight and should have equal consequences.

i agree, and the only time i can see something like this having wiggle room is legit breakages that can be clearly verified

a guy had a sear break in half on his trigger halfway thru the match...it didnt cause any ND/AD as it happened when he tried to rack another round and he couldnt close the bolt...if it had snapped or cracked enough to bind just right and cause and ND, theres no way the shooter would have been able to prep for that...it was a full custom rig with top end parts, nothing cheap on it...stuff happens

 

[DeftSystems]

Safety is easy to enforce if both sides are calm, respectful, and mature about it. I will never understand why some people on either side of the "unsafe act callout scenario" need to escalate the situation.

Generally, you need a safety in addition to the spotter/RO. The stages are high-intensity, and it's very understandable for shooters to forget a key step. That's why the safety watches them and acts as a calm brain.

 

[Diver160651]

I don't think you can really go down this road with AD/ND. Shooter's responsibility is to both conduct himself in a safe manner in accordance with the rules, and to ensure that he is bringing equipment that is properly functioning and safe. Both responsibilities carry equal weight and should have equal consequences.

I get what your saying, but as in a real instance, shooter is on target closes bolt almost hits or maybe hits, calls himself out with an equipment failure, because nobody else would probably even realized. Everything else good, maybe that could be up for discussion.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I wont even on the same squad. Just heard it over our ROs radio and later spoke with someone on the dudes squad. From what I gathered, it was probably a sear engagement issue and he might have been a newer shooter. Idk if he was standing or on his knees behind the rifle but what I do know is that it was in the same position as where he finished, and nobody was touching it. The MD and ROs talked it over and deemed the correct course of action was to make him put the gun away. I'm just the messenger.

 

[davere]

Maybe we are reading the verb incorrectly. If I am shooting prone the gun is already sitting, correct? So ya, if I or he, just looked up and was still on target and on the gun went off as he was getting ready to rack the bolt, then DQ the gun.. if it fired far from the target, DQ the shooter.

Thinking about it, I was mainly responding with the thought of responding to the question of "how would it make any sense to 'DQ' the gun" more than anything, so that might be part of the miscommunication there, too. I'm seemingly not at my smartest, today... ha ha.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[Jcarpenter223]

View attachment 7050211

Looking to shoot my first prs match soon. But I have seen this at numerous 3 gun and uspsa matches unfortunately. I hope its better in precision rifle

 

[elmuzzlebreak]

unfortunately the fifth principle of patrolling is lacking in parts.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

At the match this weekend, we had a shooters gun go off by itself when no one was touching it. He timed out, had a round still in the chamber, set the gun down on the ground pointed down range, stood up to speak to the RO, and the gun went off. Obviously that gun was not safe and to the shooter had to put it in his truck. He wasnt DQd but the rifle was. He finished the match with my buddies AI. That's a scary situation.

Just to clear this up...I was one of the ROs for this incident. The timer went off the guys face came off the gun and he just released his hands to make the rifle safe and it went off (gun was on a truck bed gate as it would be prone). Rifle was not moved off the stage and was pointed down range. Given the situation the MD didnt match DQ him and called it unsafe equipment. He was OK to continue just with another rifle.

I talked to the guy later and he had take the stock Savage Accu-trigger and modified it to be down to 1lb which is definitely below what it was designed for. Likely wasnt enough to hold the sear.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just to clear this up...I was one of the ROs for this incident. The timer went off the guys face came off the gun and he just released his hands to make the rifle safe and it went off (gun was on a truck bed gate as it would be prone). Rifle was not moved off the stage and was pointed down range. Given the situation the MD didnt match DQ him and called it unsafe equipment. He was OK to continue just with another rifle.

I talked to the guy later and he had take the stock Savage Accu-trigger and modified it to be down to 1lb which is definitely below what it was designed for. Likely wasnt enough to hold the sear.

All sounds good until he admitted to the trigger modification (sounds like it was after the incident).

That, in and of itself should be a match DQ. Modifying your gear enough to render it unsafe is an action the person knowingly took. That’s negligence and could get someone hurt.

I agree with the ruling from MD at the time, but hopefully someone gave him a decent talk about how that could have went wrong because he went to wrenching on his trigger.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

All sounds good until he admitted to the trigger modification (sounds like it was after the incident).

That, in and of itself should be a match DQ. Modifying your gear enough to render it unsafe is an action the person knowingly took. That’s negligence and could get someone hurt.

I agree with the ruling from MD at the time, but hopefully someone gave him a decent talk about how that could have went wrong because he went to wrenching on his trigger.

Yea it was after the incident and ruling. I told him the trigger wasnt meant to go that low stock and he needed to turn it up and bump test it. Had a hunch that was it from my past ownership and testing with a savage...the 22lr versions drop the sear also if you run the bolt too fast on too low of a setting.

Unfortunately these types of NDs are a lot harder to prevent and prove it was either equipment failure or shooter negligence. Not as easy as seeing a guy start approaching a 120 or 180 rule and being able to stop him before it happens. Everything is mechanical and can/will fail, the other rules are what keep damage to a minimum when they do happen like this instance.

Our matches run with 2 ROs, one spotting and one watching the shooter. Both ROs have clickers to count hits called and score is recorded after the shooters completes the stage and is told their score. Has given us a pretty safe environment working it that way.

 

[Sheldon N]

Unfortunately these types of NDs are a lot harder to prevent and prove it was either equipment failure or shooter negligence.

I think that's why the MD should have followed the letter of the law from the PRS rule book. Gun goes off when it is not supposed to, that is an AD/ND and a match DQ regardless of whether the shooter or the equipment did it.

 

[Jensey]

I debated whether or not to chime in on this thread. I decided to say my peace about it. I’ve only been shooting PRS for about a year. I came from USPSA and 3 Gun. At 3 Gun matches every stage has a designated place to stage long guns. You are allowed to carry them there muzzle up or down only and may not handle the guns other than transporting unless you are at the safe table or under the direction of an RO. Pretty much every PRS match I’ve been to I am at a loss as to where to stage my rifle. Everywhere I put it someone ends up walking in front of it, even if I placed it with the muzzle not pointing at anyone. muzzles are pointed in every direction. It seemed that this was the accepted practice and no one seemed phased about it at all.

It also seemed that no one was concerned with the suitcase carry or even worse the over the shoulder carry that makes a muzzle point straight at my face (since I’m a little shorter than most guys so the rifle over their shoulder is about eye level to me). Why didn’t I say anything? Because the top shooters were doing it with all the other top shooters seeing it and saying nothing. Match directors would drive by someone carrying the gun suitcase or over shoulder and not say a word. I never saw an RO call it out. So it appeared to be the culture and as a new person, I would never be able to change that alone. I’m the new kid on the block and probably would have been met with an eye roll and no change. So I just tried to avoid muzzles.

Im an ER nurse in a level one trauma center. I’ve seen more people shot by “unloaded” guns than I care to. Lives changed. Many lives lost. Too many. Families devastated. Children shot. The majority of situations of these accidental shootings they thought it wasn’t loaded. We just had one last week where 2 grown men, active duty, were playing around in the back yard thinking the guns were unloaded and one friend shot the other and killed him. He is in jail and devastated and his friend is dead. Guilt will probably eat at him until it kills him. It happens. It happens to people that think it won’t happen to them.

We need to do better. I will start saying something. I may be called a bitch for it by some. But I will go home to my 3 kids and I won’t have to live with guilt of harming or killing another human. Safety should be obvious to new comers and we should all set an example to those joining us for the first time. Lead by example. And I’m not perfect by any means. I once put my rifle down and inadvertently muzzled someone. And her husband chewed my ass (as he should have). I was new and struggling to figure out where to put it as there was no designated area. But it was my fault and I felt bad for it. It has stuck with me and I am overly careful now. I could not live with the guilt if I shot someone from an ND.

Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. Sometimes intentionally and sometime negligently. Either way a life is lost. It is all of our responsibility. I would like to see designated areas for staging guns and everyone holding each other accountable, especially ROs and MDs.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Staging areas need to be standardized to having the muzzles on the firing line.

I caught myself again walking in front of muzzles last weekend. Mainly because the staging areas were wherever someone started one.

The one place most everyone never walks in front of is the 180 deg firing line. No matter what.

I don’t think this fix needs to be a MD responsibility except to say the rifles should be even with the firing line.

After that, we as shooters should pick up the rest and handle it.

All muzzles on firing line unless it’s a peak or something in the way. In which case the muzzles should be placed where there is no room for a walkway.

 

[Jensey]

Staging areas need to be standardized to having the muzzles on the firing line.

I caught myself again walking in front of muzzles last weekend. Mainly because the staging areas were wherever someone started one.

The one place most everyone never walks in front of is the 180 deg firing line. No matter what.

I don’t think this fix needs to be a MD responsibility except to say the rifles should be even with the firing line.

After that, we as shooters should pick up the rest and handle it.

All muzzles on firing line unless it’s a peak or something in the way. In which case the muzzles should be placed where there is no room for a walkway.

I agree except some ranges the match is set up to where stages are so close together that there is no room between the stages so you cannot stage the guns even with the firing line. Not sure how to fix that one.

 

[morganlamprecht]

we'll try to put some roped off staging areas at our club matches to help this out

i know my general rule when i walk up to a stage is to set my rifle pointing down range beside the firing line or if the firing line area is tight space, i point it off in the direction of brush or open pasture, but i do see a handful of people just set them down any which way

 

[brianf]

I agree except some ranges the match is set up to where stages are so close together that there is no room between the stages so you cannot stage the guns even with the firing line. Not sure how to fix that one.

easy fix...that location can not be used for multiple stages

its not my fault/or a reason for safety issues that the match is trying to fit in as much as it can with the space available

this is like every other industry, especially ones that cause injury:

new idea

becomes more popular

gets taken over by big budget / profits

grows faster than available resources

QA / QC / SOP's are violated in order to increase capacity

Process improvement / new regulations are made to remedy issues

companies / people bitch about new regs

new regs become mainstream

something "new" comes out

cycle starts over


get a portable 2 x 4 rack and lean the rifles up against them, guys carry around a ton of shit on their backs we cant drag a couple of stands beforehand

if not...no match / stage or DQ

or we can just let someone get killed on a sunny weekend, when their wife and kids are at the pool in the hotel

the part i find insane is that alot of guys that compete in PRS (sanctioned or local):

were/are active duty
current or retired law enforcement
hunters

all of which have first hand knowledge what a rifle can do when it a round hits living flesh

"Bolt up, mag out, chamber flag" ..... its not that fucking hard

 

[Mormegil87]

@brianf hits the fucking nail on the head.

Our sport is cutting corners on safety in the name of growth. It's fucking pathetic.

 

[xNF_9]

@brianf hits the fucking nail on the head.

Our sport is cutting corners on safety in the name of growth. It's fucking pathetic.

For everyone’s sake I hope the new regulations /QC increases before a major injury occurs.

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

I agree except some ranges the match is set up to where stages are so close together that there is no room between the stages so you cannot stage the guns even with the firing line. Not sure how to fix that one.

Lonestar in TX has wood rifle racks at each stage with enough space for an entire squad and then some to rack their rifles safely. Racks like that would be the cure for a cramped firing line.