I always check my spam folder. Did not get this email...so bummed
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
PVA Status Updates: Hancock Rifle & NUCLEUS Barreled Action
- Thread starter bohem
- Start date
- Status
I always check my spam folder. Did not get this email...so bummed
I think you're wrong. The problem is PVA's customer service. Yes, they are trying harder and getting better. I think everyone would have been much happier with them, if they would have shared everything you mentioned earlier. It could have been a group email, once a month. Just a few lines would have gone a long way. Instead the information only comes out, to put out the fires, when people are mad. We all wish them the best. We all know a lot of this is beyond their control. I don't think it's too much to ask that they try to be proactive with customer service, rather than reactive.
Finally. That's the communication that makes these situations somewhat tolerable. Transparency clears up a lot.
You want better communication , and when they communicate you complain about it.
You blame them for the problems but you acknowledge that a lot of the issues aren’t within their control.
I’m as impatient as anyone but holy hell, as customers, we can sure be inconsistent with our complaining.
Could the communication be better? Yes. But as for myself, when I was reporting light strikes, I had a message in my inbox within three hours. The things they can control they seem to be doing a good job at, man.
The mammoth,
My post was in answer to BLKWLFk9. Josh got his post in before I got mine off. My fault, I should have quoted him.
As for my feelings about Josh's post, it was perfect. If we had posts like this sooner, I feel a lot of people would be happier with him.
Also, I feel the email I posted was enough. I was very happy with it.
My post was in answer to BLKWLFk9. Josh got his post in before I got mine off. My fault, I should have quoted him.
As for my feelings about Josh's post, it was perfect. If we had posts like this sooner, I feel a lot of people would be happier with him.
Also, I feel the email I posted was enough. I was very happy with it.
Last edited:
People are unhappy that they dont have their rifles. Period. They only want the communication BECAUSE they dont have their rifles. They dont have their rifles/barreled actions because ARC basically fucked them. Not to mention the rest of the suppliers having delays of their own, but at least they didnt lie to Josh nor sold his parts out from under him. Like I said, communication on PVAs part would have alleviated a lot of people's frustration but it wouldnt have gotten them their rifles quicker, in all actuality to the contrary. I hear you Erik. I really do. If every part of the rifle was under PVAs control, there would be no backlog, but for anyone who has been in this world of custom rifles for any time at all, they know the whole component wrangling issue. It's nothing new. PVA cant shit out an action. They have to wait until ARC shits it out before they can put it together and send it out. That's also assuming every other part is sitting in wait. Add up the pains from relying on everyone else to do there part, it has mass potential for shit to get backed up.
Bottom line, if you're mad about not getting a phone call answered or email notification, take that up with PVA. If you're mad about not having your rifle or BA, take that up with ARC. I'd bet if people had their choice, they would rather have their rifles than have their emails.
Bottom line, if you're mad about not getting a phone call answered or email notification, take that up with PVA. If you're mad about not having your rifle or BA, take that up with ARC. I'd bet if people had their choice, they would rather have their rifles than have their emails.
I thought it was odd ARC would do a custom action for LRI, release a new action, and release a new chassis all while their “partner” on the Nucleus thing hasn’t been able to deliver.
I think that Josh's recent post is exactly what people were wanting. I'm glad to see that he did it and I do believe they will be better on this moving forward. Josh actually contacted me directly as well and I've got more hope that they'll figure out customer service and also get better handling of supplies so that they can better communicate when issues are encountered.
Gee, I wonder why I didn't get the update shown in post 1255, sure not in my spam folder.
Regarding the problems with ARC, a well written contract with performance clauses and teeth for non-performance sure would do wonders in situations such as this. It ain't rocket science and now PVA takes the beating, which they deserve. As I said before, communication is just common courtesy.
Regarding the problems with ARC, a well written contract with performance clauses and teeth for non-performance sure would do wonders in situations such as this. It ain't rocket science and now PVA takes the beating, which they deserve. As I said before, communication is just common courtesy.
Same. I only have a barrel on order, but wondering why I didn’t get it since it says all outstanding orders
I don't have a dog in this fight as I ordered my PVA replacement barrel before the madness started and it was delivered last August. That said, lots of people here are bitching for one thing or another... whether they got the email or not! Spam folder or not! This or that!
One possible solution to keeping updated status for all with minimal effort and confusion is for PVA to add a direct link to their web site containing the information they would normally be including in the promised weekly update email being sent to all affected customers while this situation is resolved. While adding a link on the web site has the drawback of putting out the information to all customers instead of only those affected, it would certainly take away the uncertainty of whether the email was received or not as the latest information would be directly accessible on line, easily updated by PVA as changes occur, and any customer may look up latest and greatest status by visiting the link.
In the end, it is a business decision for Josh to make. I wish him and PVA great success and applaud he is concentrating on continuing to provide the highest quality products possible.
One possible solution to keeping updated status for all with minimal effort and confusion is for PVA to add a direct link to their web site containing the information they would normally be including in the promised weekly update email being sent to all affected customers while this situation is resolved. While adding a link on the web site has the drawback of putting out the information to all customers instead of only those affected, it would certainly take away the uncertainty of whether the email was received or not as the latest information would be directly accessible on line, easily updated by PVA as changes occur, and any customer may look up latest and greatest status by visiting the link.
In the end, it is a business decision for Josh to make. I wish him and PVA great success and applaud he is concentrating on continuing to provide the highest quality products possible.
We were not given any more information than that.
This is worse than I thought. Blame the customers, blame the subcontractors, take no accountability at all, don't return phone calls or emails, offer no apologies or refunds, my goodness. Did the customers choose ARC, or did PVA choose them? Did the customers pay ARC, or PVA? Why do you believe customers should direct their anger at a company they aren't doing business with? Are there not penalties set up with ARC for late delivery in the contract and could those not be used to cover refunds to the customers who wanted their rifles 6, 8, 10 months ago? Is this project being managed that poorly? (rhetorical question)
Bohem's comment is nearly comical - I thought it was poorly written satire at first. "We didn't provide updates if there wasn't a status change." People weren't getting info for months on end. How do you go months on end after the anticipated delivery date with zero status change and not offer a refund and an apology for the lack of product delivery? I suppose money is more important than your reputation for taking care of customers. Lots of potential future buyers are certainly taking note (myself included).
Did you miss upthread where Josh explained how JH deposits almost exclusively cover the cost of the firearm excise tax?
I don’t need to defend PVA, I’m at 13 months wait on a BA myself, but gawdamn folks....
I don’t need to defend PVA, I’m at 13 months wait on a BA myself, but gawdamn folks....
Why should the customer care? No product, no CS response, no end in sight....requesting a refund is not even remotely unreasonable.
Exactly. I think everybody that has been waiting an extremely long time without an update should be entitled to the refund. PVA should’ve owned up to the demand they couldn’t handle instead of blaming ARC for not delivering actions, KRG for not delivering Bravos, etc...
So yall think PVA should fly to WA with guns and demand Ted machine their actions? How could PVA give you actions when they themselves dont have them and ARCs end of the deal wasnt held up? So Josh was suppose to shit out an action out of nowhere? I never said people shouldn't be frustrated or mad. I would be mad if my order that I placed a year ago, was skipped over so Ted could make an additional buck off retail orders. I wouldnt be pissed at the middle man that got equally fucked. If you havent received your rifle yet, be pissed. Just be pissed in the right direction. If you dont even have an order placed and are bitching from the peanut gallery, your .02 is worth just that.
If PVA entered into an agreement to purchase actions without any contract or a contract that did not included delivery guarantees then PVA deserves the beating it is taking. This also includes KRG. If it's acceptable to pass the blame on to others upstream then the stiffed customers can pass the blame on to PVA.
I will add another little twist to this saga, the evening I ordered my 6 Dasher I tried to order a PVA 6mm BR/6mm Dasher magazine kit. Since March of 2018 they have been out of stock. I called once to inquire if at least one kit would be made available with the gun, I was told no, that there was a design problem causing the delay, that my best bet was the American Rifle Company kit. Customer service, apparently not in PVA's vocabulary.
Again, communication is common courtesy.
Last edited:
While I do get other customer service complaints, I don't get this complaint. PVA gave you a better option since theirs was clearly shown as out of stock/not available. They didn't tell you to wait, they referred you to something else. Why is that not customer services? Would you have preferred they tell you to just wait until it's back on the website? Would that have been customer service?
I do agree with the point that PVA should have had a solid contract with ARC with guarantees and timing. I suspect Josh has learned from that experience.
I don't think PVA customer service has been good so far. I'm hopeful it will improve. Again, I suspect Josh learned about that from this whole experience as well. Apparently it's historically known that gunsmiths are not good or great at customer service. That does seem to be changing now where the expectation is reasonably there. We'll see if different shops adapt and provide it better since it is becoming important to customers.
Time will tell. In the coming weeks we can see how PVA addresses the concerns and if they truly show changes. I'm going to change from complaining about the past year to focusing on from here on out. If they don't take what they've learned and change like they said they would, then that is clear time to cut out. But I'll give them a 2nd chance.
My point was, why even show it on the website if it doesn't exist much less be for sale.
Don't provide updates if there's no change is quite different than what apparently a lot of customer trying to contact but can't get hold of anyone via email or phone.
The whole supplier situation is also interesting, I didn't go back to quote everything that's said, but remember at some point ARC had action on the shelf ready to mark, then at some point ARC was making actions for retail customers and ignoring PVA. At some point all barrels are cut and sitting on shelf just waiting for ARC to deliver the action, and it's spin on and ready to ship, then there's a barrel blank shortage. There were mention in the introduction thread that many parts are common OTS components such as triggers and chassis so there won't be any problem with them delivering what's needed, then there's the Bravo shortage.
I don't have JHR on order and I'm glad I don't. Have a few barrels from PVA and they shot great, have another one during the Black Friday sale that looks like I won't be getting in a while. For my AXMC I went with Proof because it's available from MH ready to ship the next day, for my other barrel need I think I will go with someone else until PVA can put itself together.
I obviously don't know what the contract, if any, looked like between PVA & ARC, but I think it's funny when people will say there should be some binding contract with promises & penalties & all this shit between these 2 companies, than in the next breath be talking about how they miss the good ol' days. At only 38 years old, I sure do feel old fashioned thinking that maybe these 2 small companies just went into it on a handshake & a smile.
So fuck your contracts & your lawyers & all that extra bullshit that doesn't make chips or contribute to accuracy, I'll continue to wait patiently... In the grand scheme of things, is this one rifle really THAT important to anyone?! Fuck
I know some people are wanting refunds... Well PVA said at the outset they weren't screwing with refunds. Now I'm sure they didn't expect to still be filling initial orders a year later, but seems like this has been covered pretty clearly... So what's everybody arguing about then? I feel like it's 1989 & I'm back on the playground!
Fuckin' first world problems for sure...
So fuck your contracts & your lawyers & all that extra bullshit that doesn't make chips or contribute to accuracy, I'll continue to wait patiently... In the grand scheme of things, is this one rifle really THAT important to anyone?! Fuck
I know some people are wanting refunds... Well PVA said at the outset they weren't screwing with refunds. Now I'm sure they didn't expect to still be filling initial orders a year later, but seems like this has been covered pretty clearly... So what's everybody arguing about then? I feel like it's 1989 & I'm back on the playground!
Fuckin' first world problems for sure...
Not to mention, good luck finding ANYBODY in this industry that would even agree to the terms people are suggesting should have been placed by PVA. There would be no JHR in existence if that was the requisite bc every other potential partner in this would tell PVA to go fuck themselves.
I find myself asking, in what other line of work would this even be remotely acceptable? We are talking rifles, not space shuttles or even Tesla's for that matter. I buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of highly complex components a week, and yes, sometimes there are delays but then again I'm not floating my vendor for the components. One one hand I know the struggles of growing a business, but promising your customers something for which the supply chain isn't fully vetted is just bad business. I had full intentions of ordering a Hancock or at least a barreled action, but this debacle has ended any such intentions.
This situation seems to be par for the course for the shooting industry - rifles, scopes, etc. I guess we as consumers somewhat do this to ourselves for forking over cash on pre-orders (in this hobby). And yes, to the poster above it is definitely first world problems. But again, I ask, in what other situation(s) would you be fine with similar treatment?
This situation seems to be par for the course for the shooting industry - rifles, scopes, etc. I guess we as consumers somewhat do this to ourselves for forking over cash on pre-orders (in this hobby). And yes, to the poster above it is definitely first world problems. But again, I ask, in what other situation(s) would you be fine with similar treatment?
What, exactly, were customers "promised"?
As a customer, we were provided ESTIMATES - not guaranteed deadlines.
PVA's estimates to buyers were almost certainly based upon their workflow output and availability of parts from vendors, based on estimates they received from those vendors.
*The ATF drug their feet on the JHR marking variance, which has been explained here multiple times
*ARC had issues with their own vendors providing parts for the Nucleus, which pushed initial availability of those actions
*There have been subsequent QA/QC issues with Nucleus parts, further slowing down their availability.
*All the ARC Nucleus issues above are without addressing what appears to be (at best) a miscommunication between ARC and PVA with regards to shipping Nucleus actions for PVA orders while ARC was developing new products and shipping actions to retail customers
*Rock Creek, the barrel vendor, is down machinists - slowing down delivery to PVA and subsequently to customers. Not sure if anybody noticed but PVA has sold a fuckton of barrels at really aggressive pricing....
*KRG is now backed up supplying Bravos.
Ultimately, the consumer looks to PVA, who they plunked their hard-earned money down to, with zero fucks given to the "why" stuff is taking so long and says WHY IS MY SHIT NOT READY, I WANT A REFUND. Of course, anybody with even a pedestrian capability to understand JIT supply chain logistics can see how once the shit gets rolling downhill, issues compound and cascade.
And the problem with ANY supply chain is a single weak link causes the bitch to break...
As a customer, we were provided ESTIMATES - not guaranteed deadlines.
PVA's estimates to buyers were almost certainly based upon their workflow output and availability of parts from vendors, based on estimates they received from those vendors.
*The ATF drug their feet on the JHR marking variance, which has been explained here multiple times
*ARC had issues with their own vendors providing parts for the Nucleus, which pushed initial availability of those actions
*There have been subsequent QA/QC issues with Nucleus parts, further slowing down their availability.
*All the ARC Nucleus issues above are without addressing what appears to be (at best) a miscommunication between ARC and PVA with regards to shipping Nucleus actions for PVA orders while ARC was developing new products and shipping actions to retail customers
*Rock Creek, the barrel vendor, is down machinists - slowing down delivery to PVA and subsequently to customers. Not sure if anybody noticed but PVA has sold a fuckton of barrels at really aggressive pricing....
*KRG is now backed up supplying Bravos.
Ultimately, the consumer looks to PVA, who they plunked their hard-earned money down to, with zero fucks given to the "why" stuff is taking so long and says WHY IS MY SHIT NOT READY, I WANT A REFUND. Of course, anybody with even a pedestrian capability to understand JIT supply chain logistics can see how once the shit gets rolling downhill, issues compound and cascade.
And the problem with ANY supply chain is a single weak link causes the bitch to break...
Last edited:
I can see this from both sides. But I also just started laughing a bit to myself as it reminds me of years ago where I was in to the airline miles accrual game. I'd see posts from people saying "ABCD didn't give me a free upgrade, I'll never fly them again". Then, a short while later they'd have the same complaint about another airline and swear off them. Soon, they had no place left to go. Point being, in that game, there wasn't necessarily greener grass to go to. Everyone had the same issues and failures.
For the shooting industry, it seems like only in the past few years are those greener pastures starting to show and some places stand out. But there is still a lot of customer accepted experiences that are very different from high tech or some other industries.
Edit to add: Pre-order people also had the option to not pre-order. They could have waited until products were shipping and readily available. By pre-ordering they received a discount and also to be one of the early recipients of the product. In exchange for those, they accepted the uncertainty of timeline and that all that was provided was estimates based on currently available information. PVA still could have done better on updating when their information changed, but people did get something in return for their risk.
For the shooting industry, it seems like only in the past few years are those greener pastures starting to show and some places stand out. But there is still a lot of customer accepted experiences that are very different from high tech or some other industries.
Edit to add: Pre-order people also had the option to not pre-order. They could have waited until products were shipping and readily available. By pre-ordering they received a discount and also to be one of the early recipients of the product. In exchange for those, they accepted the uncertainty of timeline and that all that was provided was estimates based on currently available information. PVA still could have done better on updating when their information changed, but people did get something in return for their risk.
Yup, Josh let me know my barrel is spun up and barreled action should be invoiced this week as well.
If the barrel shortage is so bad I’d take store credit I guess and use it on another JH barrel later this year, source my Tikka barre elsewhere. but I don’t think they’ll change orders.
Again, mine is a simple observation. The rifles were ordered (pre-ordered) from PVA not from Arc, Rock Creek, KRG, etc. At the end of the day it's your money, not mine. I'm a finance guy and just have a hard time floating a vendor for anything, much less something that is supposed to be somewhat in the "production" category.
Not intending to get into a pissing match, I have just noted that this is the only hobby that I have been involved with where this seems to be acceptable, AND, we as buyers are willing to put up with it.
Not intending to get into a pissing match, I have just noted that this is the only hobby that I have been involved with where this seems to be acceptable, AND, we as buyers are willing to put up with it.
I'm not disagreeing with you. It is true that its not like other industries. And that (a) we allow it to continue and (b) some vendors are starting to realize it should change and are doing so. Maybe PVA can become one of those moving forward.
I'm not going to allow KRG to be thrown under the bus here. We are indeed at low inventory on Bravos right now, we're also not the root cause of the delays. I am not going to air dirty laundry or expose business communication and deals in public of course. It would have been advisable for all commercial parties involved to follow that but here we are and we (KRG) are not amused.
For all the customers, if everyone can take one step toward the middle, away from strong support for PVA and strong criticism, it will work out in time. It is apparent they (PVA) are not trying to defraud anyone, anybody remember one of the earliest 'hide group builds with that new super action and the guy that changed business names several times, that one was really bad.
Thanks guys,
Justin
For all the customers, if everyone can take one step toward the middle, away from strong support for PVA and strong criticism, it will work out in time. It is apparent they (PVA) are not trying to defraud anyone, anybody remember one of the earliest 'hide group builds with that new super action and the guy that changed business names several times, that one was really bad.
Thanks guys,
Justin
Last edited:
Unfortunately its easy for people to become impatient with the days of Amazon. I've heard that KRG is nothing but one of the best chassis's available and if I wanted some cheaper shit I could get it right now, but I want the best and I'm willing to wait for the best. Thank you guys (and PVA) for doing what you do.
Lets not forget that other companies are having supply and demand problems. SiCo is still trying to fulfill orders from last summers BOGO silencer deal. And its almost summer again.
Justin
I went back and read just to be sure I wasnt wrong in saying this. Nobody is throwing yall under the bus. Yall are on delay of production of the Bravos. That's understandable. It happens. Period. No biggie. It's just important for PVA to disclose the info they have in the spirit of transparency and update as that is what everyone is wanting. The only company that belongs under the bus is ARC. They are the ones that have done back handed business by selling actions out from under PVA when they had open and past due purchase orders. KRG isnt guilty of that. Yall just keep it pumping. I hope nothing I've said made you feel that KRG was blame worthy of anything.
I went back and read just to be sure I wasnt wrong in saying this. Nobody is throwing yall under the bus. Yall are on delay of production of the Bravos. That's understandable. It happens. Period. No biggie. It's just important for PVA to disclose the info they have in the spirit of transparency and update as that is what everyone is wanting. The only company that belongs under the bus is ARC. They are the ones that have done back handed business by selling actions out from under PVA when they had open and past due purchase orders. KRG isnt guilty of that. Yall just keep it pumping. I hope nothing I've said made you feel that KRG was blame worthy of anything.
I need a beer after reading this......and just wait, with the election cycle coming up....its going to get worse.
What beer are you guys going to drink while you wait ? I prefer Chimay red.
What beer are you guys going to drink while you wait ? I prefer Chimay red.
Bravo shortage? LMFAO!
These rifles were ordered over a year ago and you haven't acquired the chassis? Wow.
FWIW Brownells has KRG Bravos in stock and has for most of the last twelve months..
These rifles were ordered over a year ago and you haven't acquired the chassis? Wow.
FWIW Brownells has KRG Bravos in stock and has for most of the last twelve months..
Brownells is also a multi multi million dollar business. PVA has been full time for 2 years as of this month. Before that, it was ran part time out of a home garage. Apples and hand grenades.. Not even apples and oranges.
I wonder how many guys who ordered JH rifles that are also are waiting on stamps for their suppressors locked away for who knows how long. Gotta be an ulcer developing there for some!
Man this thread was a good read. I will say KRG and PVA are both solid companies which I have used their products in the past and wouldn’t hesitate to buy their stuff again! Great stuff from great guys! Sucks it’s been a long wait on the JHR but I’m sure you’ll be happy with the finished product, we’ll at least 98% of you. Some will never be happy
The simple problem as I see it from the perspective of a customer is this: If PVA couldn’t delivery Y number of rifles in time X, they simply should have cut off the ordering process when they reached their level of confidence. Shit happens, deadlines change, we all get that. How PVA is handling this is pretty bad though. I feel like they’ve tried to redirect blame on several suppliers and the government, which isn’t cool. Customers shouldn’t care what the supply issues are, it’s none of anyone’s business unless they work for PVA or are an investor. It feels allot like finger pointing and airing out dirty laundry.
I don’t have a JHR on order but I did order my second barrel from PVA in January. I hope they get their back log caught up but even if I have to wait six months for it, it will be worth it. My first one is a hammer.
You're right that they probably should have had a limit on pre-orders. However, even with a smaller number, they still likely would have been affected by ARC selling actions out from under them.
But its interesting you're saying they shouldn't be transparent on what the hold-ups are on the delays. Most other people, including myself, were/are asking why things are delayed. If PVA can't give a reason for it then how woudl that be any better than no communication? Seems lose/lose proposition. If they can't be open that the ATF approval is slowing things down, what would they then say? "Were delayed due to circumstances beyond our control. appreciate your patience". Is that any better?
It does seem that things are starting to move finally. Hopefully PVA can start delivering, clear out the backlog, and improve their communication going forward. Those who don't want to deal with PVA any more can sell their spot in line and be done with it. Those who will no longer order from PVA can also be done with them. Me, with what I've seen from ARC, I'm done with ARC. Will stick with Impact or BigHorn for their actions.
- Status
Similar threads
