Gunsmithing Q on Provisional Patent application...

[Wannashootit]

After a lot of head scratching, I have an idea for a stock modification (for a particular application) that I've never seen before and I believe will be able to be patented.

Natch, a prototype and testing of the concept will need to be done before any further decisions are made as to whether it ends up being viable and whether to move forward.

I have read about a Provisional Patent application. I would prefer not to involve professional legal fees at this point unless absolutely necessary, just looking to protect the "concept" (which is absolutely unique, far as I know) to allow me to approach the necessary parties for making prototypes.

I can't believe it could be as simple as filing this form, could it?

http://www.uspto.gov/forms/sb0016.pdf

Assuming not, are there any DIY online "packages" that are legit and can get the job done adequately? There are a ton of them...

 

[Clark]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

My father has 27 gun and vehicle design patents.
I get email every day from an SH member that is an attorney working on patents.
My wife has a patent.
My cousin has some patents.
A couple of my now deceased friends had patents.
I have spoken with an attorney about patenting an idea of mine.

There are phases of getting patents.
1) idea
2) prototype working
3) complicated patent writing
4) filing a patent
5) the patent game, and how to make money

I have a lifetime experience of listening to engineers at lunch and watching them draw on napkins and tell me how they are going to get rich.
If an engineer does not have an idea that he thinks he could patent and get rich, then he is not the most interesting lunch partner.
The further you are away from something, the easier it would seem to make it work.
There are millions of ideas, fewer with working prototypes, fewer still with patents written, fewer still with patents applied and granted, and damn few guys who ever made a nickel from their patents.
You need to become an expert on all phases, and gets lots of ideas in the hopper and keep working at it. Try to have fun along the way.

p.s. I have a friend with lot of patents he got as an employee. They give him a fancy wooden plague to hang on the wall for each patent and an award ceremony. And some of his patents are really good and changed the company. Anyway, he is eccentric, and builds bird houses out of the plaques.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Thanks, but I asked for advice on the process for obtaining a provisional patent.

I did not ask about the probability for success in ultimately obtaining a patent, or whether it ends up being profitable if a patent were obtained. Perhaps you should have had your lunches with anyone that wasn't an engineer?

Your diatribe about the likelihood of total failure is noted, and I'm fully aware of that fact. I've owned my own businesses since graduating college thirty years ago with a B.S. in Business Admin and I'm capable of risk/reward evaluations.

I would still appreciate any constructive advice from anyone that has obtained a provisional patent, and the best process for doing so.

Thanks!

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Best bet is to call a patent attorney, give him 75 for an hour consultation.

 

[Mgordon]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X Ring Accuracy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Best bet is to call a patent attorney, give him 75 for an hour consultation. </div></div>

Like Woody said, get an attorney and pay him to take care of things. Your time is also worth something so let a professional handle the paper work.

-Get in touch with a patent attorney.
-Present your idea.
-Pay roughly $2000-$3000 for the Provisional Patent
-Do all your updates and work to figure out if you want to invest in an utility patent during your 1 year limit.

Once you let a provisional patent expire, it now becomes public knowledge and you cannot patent the same idea/product with out changes.

Mark

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Thanks for the reply and the PM, Mark...
PM sent.

 

[500grains]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can't believe it could be as simple as filing this form, could it?

http://www.uspto.gov/forms/sb0016.pdf
</div></div>

No, but some people choose to believe that it is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Assuming not, are there any DIY online "packages" that are legit and can get the job done adequately? There are a ton of them... </div></div>

Bullshit online services or a $75 /hour patent attorney will probably be ok, because there is a 99% chance no one will ever read the patent.

In the small chance that the patent becomes genuinely valuable, you will be sorry you did not pay $375/hour for a real patent attorney.

OK, now for some sincere advice: If you can't afford a real patent attorney, don't bother, because your patent will be worthless if you use anything less.

 

[500grains]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, but I asked for advice on the process for obtaining a provisional patent.


</div></div>

There is no such thing.

But there is such a thing as a provisional patent application. However, no patent results from it.

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Caveat that I'm not an attorney, just ending law student who did some patent stuff on my wife's concept idea. Think of a provisional patent as "holding your spot." It will give you a year to complete a full patent record search and complete prototypes/designs, then when you submit your full application, the date of approval will relate back (ie back date) to the provisional date. The general steps a lot of people use are (1) fill out provisional patent form, (2) hire a decent patent attorney who will do a patentability search (kind of like a title attorney will search property records for his title exam (3) work with patent attorney to submit full patent application. During all of this you are still working on proto and whatnot, so you can be very detailed and specific when you submit the full application. Count on at least a few thousand for the record search, and anywhere from 5-40k for the full application and hearing process. hope that helps.

 

[Clark]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimlaw83</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Caveat that I'm not an attorney, just ending law student who did some patent stuff on my wife's concept idea. Think of a provisional patent as "holding your spot." ... hope that helps. </div></div>


There is no such thing as a "provisional patent".

There is such a thing as a provisional application.

Read the first line on the wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_application

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Sure, whatever you say. Try looking up "typographical error" at some point while you are out there goofing around on Google. Your post kinda misses the point of helping get the guy pointed in the right direction, wouldn't you agree? Geez, I feel like I need to add a disclaimer every time I post from the iPhone.

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Been down this road a time or two. Your patent is only good after its challenged and defended. Just because you never seen the idea you have doesn't mean it doesn't exist and its not already patented.

To answer your question......no its not as simple as the link you provided and first thing to do is get a pat. Attorney to look and see if what you are doing is already patented before you waste more time.

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

As a side note, you can probably get an initial appointment with most reputable patent attorneys without charge. Bring questions, details, etc. They will happily go over the process with you, then discuss fees, retainers, etc, so you can get an idea of what your costs and timeframes will look like.

 

[aagifford]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

I work for a medical device development company and have 3 patents pending (none granted yet...) All worked on by patent attorneys. One of my colleagues has somewhere around 130 patents, and is listed as a prolific inventor. I'll relay some advice he has given me to you.

He sometimes works on some of his own patentable developments to sell to companies, and while quite competent at searching, says that there are too many pitfalls to do this yourself, and that the only way to be good at it is by training and practice. Also that a competent attorney is required to have something worth defending. One slip up in your wording can give someone else the ability to picket fence around you, and all your work and any patent you may be granted become worthless. For most patents, the cost will be about $20K or so.

So while I applaud the do it yourself attitude displayed here, my considered advice is that this is not a productive path.

A few questions...
What class and subclass does your potential patent belong to?
If you don't know this, you are way behind the game already.

Did you perform a patent search yourself? (Both US and worldwide?) If you haven't done this already, again you are way behind.

Did you find anything close? If you didn't, then you didn't search enough.

Did you read all of them? If you didn't, again you haven't done enough background work.

Did any of the ones you read have anything remotely like what you are proposing to do? I guarantee there will be something, besides you will need to list prior patents as a reference and then show how yours is different, and truly novel.

Is your idea still novel and undescribed? If so, then that is good, but...

Did you search prior literature (books, magazines, net, etc.)
Is your idea listed or described within any prior literature anywhere? If described anywhere, you don't have a defendable patent.

Can you make money from it? Who are you going to sell it to?

I would like to be encouraging, but my experience is that a patent doesn't necessarily mean wealth. Two of the three I have pending is to provide my client companies something to put on their portfolio. The other is part of a picket fence against another company. If you have a patent but there is a workaround, then you don't have a way to turn your patent into money.

 

[Clark]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

More unsolicited diatribe...

Tomorrow I am meeting with an attorney at $275/hour.
I normally call them lawyers, but they are attorneys when I am about to be nice to them.
This is not directly about patents. More like taxes on money kind of from patents.
Another SH member [a real patent attorney shaking his head over my posts in this thread] has emailed me this check list:

<span style="font-style: italic">Ask him if he charges for:
- talking about doing work
- thinking about doing work
- avoiding doing work
- doing things other than work
- having someone else do the work </span>

I could write a play, "The sleazy consulting engineer".
I think I have seen every trick to take advantage of a client.
But judging by the size of the yachts and safaris, lawyers are worse.

 

[Wannashootit]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Gentlemen;

I really do appreciate the advice.

I fully realize that it will probably not bear fruit;<span style="font-weight: bold">however</span>, I believe it bears taking to a point of prototype testing, which will not be overly expensive. <span style="font-weight: bold">IF</span>the accuracy testing holds up...then it becomes a matter of economics to determine if it can be produced at a price the market will bear, and still produce a reasonable profit.

I have no doubt (but hell, I was wrong once before) that there would be demand, but at a price point, like most anything else.

Am I sure the idea has not been presented before, or is not already patented?

Not sure of anything but death and Uncle Sam. However, it is relative to a specific sector of firearms, and if it exists commercially I would know about it. This is not to say, that someone else hasn't already thought about it, tried it, and shitcanned it.

Trust me, I'm not the type that tends to have a wild hair up his ass. Maybe it's mid-life crisis, who the fuck knows. I do know that I've made up my mind to pursue other avenues for revenue, and this <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> be one of them...

One thing has stuck with me, more than anything else I learned in school...

In Marketing, you're taught to identify demand for a product that's not being met... and simply put, that's all I've got in mind.

 

[Pygmycoho1]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

I think, and that's not worth much, a provisional patent buys you time to try and find someone to buy the idea. At least that's the jest of my conversation with a guy that holds a couple patents and is a inventor for money. Its protected but only for 1 year. It sounded like he used that to hold the idea and then tried to pawn it off to a real company that had the lawyers and cash to carry it the rest of the way. He lived pretty well before his homemade plane crashed. Need I continue.

 

[Jimlaw83]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

Side note you CAN do an online record search yourself with the us patent office. Mind you it won't include patents that havent been published yet, and is a little hairy to use. Just take some time and try lots of different search terms/combos. May be enough for a preliminary determination of whether to talk to an attorney.

 

[TXatty]

Re: Q on Provisional Patent application...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jimlaw83</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As a side note, you can probably get an initial appointment with most reputable patent attorneys without charge. Bring questions, details, etc. They will happily go over the process with you, then discuss fees, retainers, etc, so you can get an idea of what your costs and timeframes will look like. </div></div>

I AM a patent attorney, and this is good advice. I'm currently in-house counsel for a large company, but spent over 10 years of my career in private practice. It was never a problem to spend an hour (gratis) with a prospective client to understand what they had/needed. I would recommend going to such a meeting with as much documentation of your idea as possible--drawings (the neater the better), a detailed written explaination and description of your idea (what it is, what it does, why it's better/different, etc). If you provide the attorney with good starting material, the cost to "massage" it into a more suitable format will be much less than if the attorney starts with a blank piece of paper.