Gunsmithing Question about why to use a reamer holder

#52
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

300, will do. I want to find one that works the way I imagine it needs to or it wont help me. So I'll be looking into them all.

RAD, the one in the pic looks like it pivots at the rear too. Am I just not seeing it right? Isn't the back held on center while the front can move anywhere it wants?


So far every one Ive seen looks to pivot and move in the same way, some just dont have springs and have slightly different designs, but they all look like they hold the rear on a center and pivot, allowing the front to point where ever it wants. It doesnt look like the entire reamer "floats" over staying parallel to Z.
If they do and Im just seeing it wrong in the pics I look at, tell me Im wrong. I hope I am cause Ive been planning on using one.


Maybe I just need to buy one and see if it moves in the way I think they do.

BTW, I appreciate the info. We weren't taught about "floating reamer breakers" in school even though I asked my instructor repeatedly to bring one in and show me how to use it.
 
#53
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

If anyone has one they'd be willing to take pics of from different angles to show me Id appreciate it. The only pics I've seen were side views and shit. Never seen one in real life.

If they allow the reamer to stay parallel to Z, please show me
 
#54
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

The reamer locks into the holder that has a counter bore in the base. The pusher has a radius that loosely fits into the base.

It pushes like a center in the tailstock, but doesn't force the tale of the reamer to follow the center line of the lathe. That allows it to follow the center line of the bore, theoretically.
 
#57
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. Some things worry me about that though. Especially holding that one handle on it. </div></div>

all my chambers turned out nice with it but i couldn't get over the idea of holding it by hand. that is why i switched to the jgs holder. if i could get my tailstock dead nuts and guaranty that it stays that way throughout the travel, i'd go rigid. i've been toying with the idea building a dedicated tool post off my cross slide to hold the reamer.
 
#59
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same as holding a wrench or tap handle. </div></div>

Not in my mind if the rear of the reamer can move around. Holding onto that one handle by hand makes me think you will be putting lateral pressure on the reamer and it will want to cut sideway. If the rear of the reamer is held by a center, it cant move left/right/up/down so holding it with one handle by hand could only try to point the front in a different direction.


Im working on a design of my own. Something held evenly all the way around it, not by hand. And something that will keep the reamer parallel to Z.

If I figure something nice out I'll post pics.


Im looking on the Dunham website for what youre talkin about Chad. Not sure what Im looking for but something that will od what Im asking I guess.


If I cant figure anything out, I'll order either the JGS, GTR, or Eagle and just try it out. If I dont like it I can always sell it.


Let me ask you this. Lets say the barrel is indicated in perfectly, but the tailstock is .002" low of Z. If you just used a dead center in tailstock to push the reamer, since its .002 off in one direction, will the effect be a chamber that is .004" oversized at the rear? Or will it be fine being so close?

I know a shop chambering like that. No reamer holder, just pushing it with the tailstock center, with the tailstock off by up to probably .010 high or low, and .004 or so left and right. Are they cutting oversized chambers that way? Or do you think the tail stock is "close enough"?
 
#60
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

Chad -- this makes complete sense to me. I probably need to change the way I do my barrels (I'm an amateur and I only work on my stuff).

I do have a question though. Given your six points and the fact that you have a CNC lathe -- why not bore the chamber instead of using a reamer? You wouldn't have the problem of the reamer following the hole and you could adjust the speed for the current radius depending on tool position.

Granted there may be more tool deflection (maybe not, I don't know) but can't that be accounted for in software?

I have an old article that is, as I remember, a reprint from the Rifleman. In it a gunsmith shows how he bores a chamber since he didn't have a reamer for the odd caliber and didn't have time to get it. He used a number of accurate dial indicators and did it manually -- not something I have the guts to try -- but with a CNC lathe, I would think it would be easier. You could also do custom throats, etc.

Thanks!

Brad
 
#61
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

I remember this being discussed before and it led to the idea of live tooling and grinding the throat.

Deflection was the biggest concern especially for the longer calibers.
 
#62
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad -- this makes complete sense to me. I probably need to change the way I do my barrels (I'm an amateur and I only work on my stuff).

I do have a question though. Given your six points and the fact that you have a CNC lathe -- why not bore the chamber instead of using a reamer? You wouldn't have the problem of the reamer following the hole and you could adjust the speed for the current radius depending on tool position.

Granted there may be more tool deflection (maybe not, I don't know) but can't that be accounted for in software?

I have an old article that is, as I remember, a reprint from the Rifleman. In it a gunsmith shows how he bores a chamber since he didn't have a reamer for the odd caliber and didn't have time to get it. He used a number of accurate dial indicators and did it manually -- not something I have the guts to try -- but with a CNC lathe, I would think it would be easier. You could also do custom throats, etc.

Thanks!

Brad </div></div>

imagine a boring bar with a reach close to 3" long (or longer) and able to fit into a .300" hole or smaller making interrupted cuts. if you did do it, the next question would be how do you qualify your work? with a reamer, you have your gauge. if you single point it, you are going to need to do some really careful measurements or make a cast just to find out if you are the dimensions you want to be.

for a pistol cartridge, i'm sure it's very doable. for a full size bottleneck cartridge, it doesn't seem very realistic to me.
 
#63
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
imagine a boring bar with a reach close to 3" long (or longer) and able to fit into a .300" hole or smaller making interrupted cuts. if you did do it, the next question would be how do you qualify your work? with a reamer, you have your gauge. if you single point it, you are going to need to do some really careful measurements or make a cast just to find out if you are the dimensions you want to be.

for a pistol cartridge, i'm sure it's very doable. for a full size bottleneck cartridge, it doesn't seem very realistic to me. </div></div>

I found the article -- it's "Rifle", July/August 1973. The book I got the article from is called "Gunsmithing Tips & Projects" by Wolfe, 1989. The author, James Parfet, has boring bar drawings and yes they are close to 3" long. I don't know how he qualified his work, I'm sure it can be measured. The author does say:

"This is such a fun way to produce a near-perfect rifle chamber that to date I have produced six of them, along with eleven sets of dies, without one failure or the need to cut the barrel back and deepen the chamber to remove chatter marks or a tear such as can be produced by a reamer".

Thanks!

Brad
 
#64
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

Arent chambers being EDMd now and they're supposed to be the "best"?
A boring bar seems far fetched to me, but EDM is still "single point" right?



The masnon holder looks to move in the way Id expect a floating reamer holder to move. I am buying it soon. My buddy just ordered an Eagle. Will try both.


Putting my homemade plans on hold until I try both. The Manson seems to be very much like what I was drawing up.
 
#65
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Arent chambers being EDMd now and they're supposed to be the "best"?
A boring bar seems far fetched to me, but EDM is still "single point" right?

</div></div>

if chambers are being burnt with an edm it's gotta be a sinker edm. i wouldn't consider that single point. you are not going to have deflection with the electrode like you would a small diameter, long reach boring bar. i know nothing more about edm than what i have read and talked to people about so i won't comment on it being the "best".
 
#66
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

I was wondering if it was a reamer shaped "sinker" if thats what you were referring to, or if it was the wire EDM that I think Ive seen them use to burn out broken taps.

And I realize its not the same and wouldn't get deflection like a boring bar would. I was just putting it out there that I read about it being done and that it was super accurate, and either a wire or sinker like you mentioned was probably used, again if thats what you were referring to. If it were the wire, thatd be amazing.

Anyone have anything to say about the Manson holder?
 
#67
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not in my mind if the rear of the reamer can move around. Holding onto that one handle by hand makes me think you will be
putting lateral pressure on the reamer and it will want to cut sideway.</div></div>

That's the question that I have.

Can you actually get a reamer to cut way back on the sides like that?
To do that assuming the flutes will cut there...
The pilot would seem to have to pivot in the bore or the reamer flex? Both seem unlikely particularly if it was a carbide reamer.

Aren't the flutes ground such that they only cut up near the shoulder?

Perhaps the person to ask about that might be Dave Kiff at PTG?

This is a great discussion BTW
cool.gif
Click to expand...
 
#68
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark Housel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That's the question that I have.

Can you actually get a reamer to cut way back on the sides like that?
To do that assuming the flutes will cut there...
The pilot would seem to have to pivot in the bore or the reamer flex? Both seem unlikely particularly if it was a carbide reamer.

Aren't the flutes ground such that they only cut up near the shoulder?

Perhaps the person to ask about that might be Dave Kiff at PTG?
</div></div>


Pilots will pivot enough in the bore that the rear of the reamer will move side to side up and down at least a few thou. If your reamer doesn't jiggle at all, the pilot is too tight(IMO). Havent you jiggled a reamer while checking pilot fit in the bore? Do you keep going larger until its so tight it doesnt jiggle at all? If so youre probably marring your bore with it as bores aren't consistent in diameter land to land. And they probably flex with the kind of pressure I think would be put on it holding that single eagle handle.


And I assume the sides of the reamer cut... cases dont have parallel sides, they taper. So doesnt the side of the reamer have to cut? And what about a large belted magnum? They're long, and cut at the rear for the case walls and the belt too.

Pretty sure with lateral pressure you could get a reamer to enlarge a hole. And also pretty sure you're applying lateral pressure anytime you hold a reamer from turning by hand, ESPECIALLY using only one handle.
 
#69
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad -- this makes complete sense to me. I probably need to change the way I do my barrels (I'm an amateur and I only work on my stuff).

I do have a question though. Given your six points and the fact that you have a CNC lathe -- why not bore the chamber instead of using a reamer? You wouldn't have the problem of the reamer following the hole and you could adjust the speed for the current radius depending on tool position.</div></div>

Hello Brad,

Boring the chamber with a boring bar first, prior to using a rougher reamer or finishing reamer is what the majority of the smiths do. I asked Gordy Gritters a couple of years ago at Shot Show as to what is the better method (boring bar then finish reamer) or just use the finish reamer. He said that he uses the boring bar and finish reamer and that it works perfectly. He's found no difference in the method. However he did state that if your reamer starts out of alignment, it will stay out of alignment.

Look at 300Snipers link to his 284 build and you'll see the same way a lot of top smiths & competitors setup their barrels centering up the ID for chambering. Terry Cross, Gordy Gritters, myself, 300Sniper, Marc S from Spartan Precision rifles, Jerry Newman from Newman Precision, etc. Everyone from the NorCal club that has had their rifles put together this way have had zero complaints.

Keith,

As far questions about reamer holders, go with GTR or JGS. These two reamers are excellent and you won't be disappointed with any of these two. As with MarcS from Spartan Precision Rifles, Jerry Newman from Newman Precision, 300Sniper, they use the JGS and it works great. Centering up the ID at the chamber end with a PTG Range Rod first and using one of the two reamer holders mentioned, if your vertical alignment on your tailstock is out by .001 or .002, there is enough flex with these holders to still cut center. The issue of Z being out of alignment will be mute if you center your ID first while utilizing these two reamers.
 
#70
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

The Manson Im trying first.

I know just looking at pics doesnt show me much, but the Mansons design seems to be closest to what makes sense to me.

A couple of the others do not seem good at all to me. But what do I know about em.


Im not unhappy with the way we chambered in school. If you understand certain things about rifles you can take different paths to end up at the same place... with a great rifle. If you dont, a method as simplified as the way we used in school could really screw you up. If you forget one step, you're screwed. But I guess that can be said about any procedure.
 
#71
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

The Manson works well. I don't own one but I've tried it out a half dozen times on a friends lathe and you should be happy with it.

My friend did have an issue with chattering with it one time after using a .338 Lapua rougher reamer first and when we went with the finisher I showed him a technique that I read about with using a cleaning patch over the reamer (wax paper works too) to eliminate the chattering and it worked like a charm.

With my JGS reamer holder, I've been using it now for 16 years and I've never had a reamer chatter on me.
 
#72
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<span style="font-weight: bold">mine in bold</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Im not unhappy with the way we chambered in school. If you understand certain things about rifles <span style="font-weight: bold">you can take different paths to end up at the same place</span>... with <span style="font-weight: bold">a great rifle.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Good point Keith</span>

If you dont, a method as simplified as the way we used in school could really screw you up. If you forget one step, you're screwed. <span style="font-weight: bold">But I guess that can be said about any procedure.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Exactly. The more complex a process (that may take skill/feel out of the process) the more likely to miss something, screw up, or just shit happening to bite you.
A process that is more dependent on skill/feel and knowledge is more likely to be messed up by inexperience.
</span>
</div></div>
 
#74
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Animal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My friend did have an issue with chattering with it one time after using a .338 Lapua rougher reamer first and when we went with the finisher I showed him a technique that I read about with using a cleaning patch over the reamer (wax paper works too) to eliminate the chattering and it worked like a charm.
</div></div>

Where are you putting the paper?
Do you only get chatter if you roughed it first and what are the main cause for chatter with a reamer?

I haven't felt chatter yet while reaming I dont think. I run just a finisher live piloted, being pushed by the tailstock center, no reamer holder and holding reamer with a hand held holder I made that you can grip both sides of the reamer with instead of one side like the Eagle or if you rest a handle on the carriage, at around 80rpm(but tried it higher once with great results) and a pretty slow feed rate trying to be as consistent as possible. Run in .100" at a time and clean reamer/check for chip weld, reduce to .050" when Im getting close to keep the reamer as lubricated as possible since we don't use a coolant system. Then take out the last .030 - .050" or so in 2 or 3 steps. Have never felt anything weird that felt like chatter and haven't gotten any abnormalities(says the brass and a micrometer anyways). Havent done a mold of a chamber yet.
I aim for +.002 headpace. with .004" between Go and NoGo

It's how we were taught at school and has worked so far.

I think for certain circumstances, I will want to be able to use different methods though, which is why we're trying out the Manson holder. The school method uses a steady rest which can put a ring on the barrel, force you to make concentricity cuts, etc.
Running through the headstock doesnt leave marks if done right, and for some things like crowning I will never use a steady rest.
 
#75
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/gunsmithing.htm#gtrproducts


Here is a link to a page on PTGs site.

If you read the description/instructions for the GTR reamer holder, I believe it does exactly what I suspected it did, and exactly what it looks like it does.

It seems the reamer still pivots on a fixed center just like one being pushed by a tailstock center using no reamer holder at all.
The adjustments on the reamer holder simply point the pilot in whatever direction you want.

So the only difference between using this, and using no reamer holder at all, is you can aim the pilot in any direction, aiming it into the bore. Is that correct?


If so, how does that help make up for a tailstock that is not running on Z? The reamer is not running parallel to Z, like the bore is, if the tailstock is not indicated in.

So I see no benefit to using one to ream chambers.

Can anyone shed some light?

Edited: I guess there isnt really the claim that its designed to keep the reamer parallel to Z, so what does this one do for you then?





The Mason and Eagle seem that they may keep the reamer parallel to bore, while shifting over to Z like you need them to. I voiced my concerns with the Eagle, so Im ordering the Manson. My buddy Mike Moore is ordering the Eagle. We will share and both get to see what we think about these holders.
 
#76
Re: Question about why to use a reamer holder

send me an email...i'll show you ours...radial and axial correction. i haven't seen one out there that does both for less than about 20k...
 
#78
I realize this is a 2 year old thread but I'm just wondering if these people still have the same opinions now,

Keith have you been able too use both the manson and the eagle reamer holder and share your thoughts on which one you perfer or if you have a different method that you use.

Thanks in advance.
 
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