Question on Redding competition shell holders

[Ape_Factory]

Looking at them, they're all "+" meaning if you raise the ram and tighten the die down to where it's touching, and that headspace is larger than what you're looking for, these won't help. Is that a correct assessment?

Just to clarify, and these are relatively random numbers, doing the above, I'd get a HS of 1.066 but I WANT 1.076. Assuming the Redding shell holders are not going to help.

 

[spife7980]

You set the die to correctly locate the shoulder when sizing. Then you swap in shell holders that are higher topped than the standard holder so that the die hits the shell holder for solid contact every time.

 

[Ckleeves]

In your example the +.010 would (should) give you exactly that 1.076 if your getting 1.066 with a normal (+.000) shell holder. Basically if your oversizing your brass and want less shoulder bump then the bigger the number on the shell holder then the less it bumps the shoulder.

 

[alamo5000]

I looked at these shell holders and concluded that they won't help in most situations. It just adds to the confusion. If your die gets put in place and never moved again, then maybe. Other than that you will have a slightly different die orientation every time you set up.

If you use the same shell holder each time is one thing to keep consistent. The other key factor is having a reliable way to measure progress.

I personally concluded that accurately measuring is a lot more valuable (and a better investment) than trying to get a shortcut with an expensive set of shell holders.

 

[jakelly]

No. The shell holders are meant to decrease headspace. The + is how much more you can size your brass, in case your chamber is smaller than the die. If you want to increase the headspace, simply unscrew the die some.

 

[Ckleeves]

 

[jakelly]

No. The shell holders are meant to decrease headspace. The + is how much more you can size your brass, in case your chamber is smaller than the die. If you want to increase the headspace, simply unscrew the die some.

I guess I’m wrong about this and they’re designed to add headspace. I’ll have to look at mine again when I get home. What’s weird is I’m pretty sure more than half of my set was shorter than my standard RCBS holder.

 

[Ape_Factory]

I do use Hornady's comparator for shoulder and ogive and am addicted to measuring. Was just wondering if there was a reliable, repeatable way to get the same head space that didn't involve screwing in/unscrewing the die to set head space. Doesn't sound like there is.

If it works like spife says it would below, assuming that would add a bit of consistency to the headspacing process or no? I currently get a batch, out of say 1,000, that'll be off by a thousandth or two and have been lubing the die every 20 or 30 rounds from the top as I don't use the expander ball. Using the RCBS rock chucker press.

I'm really striving for consistency as I use a Geraud trimmer which goes off the shoulder when trimming.

You set the die to correctly locate the shoulder when sizing. Then you swap in shell holders that are higher topped than the standard holder so that the die hits the shell holder for solid contact every time.

 

[Ckleeves]

I think they work pretty well at maintaining consistency, IME having some cam over with the comp shell holders is more consistent then having the sizer screwed up off of a
shell holder.

The biggest advantage to me is when your loading for different rifles with the same dies and not having to adjust dies every time. I just write down in my loading book what # shell holder for that particular rifle/barrel and never move my dies.

They aren’t perfect, on one of my sets the +.002 and +.004 are more like .004 apart so In one of my 22-250’s my options are .001 or .005 of bump and in one of my other sets the +.010 is more like +.013 but it works good with some belted mags.

 

[simonp]

Anyone know how the shell holders fit into a Dillon 650? or a Forester single stage? I am guessing they dont from looking at the presses but they would be handy if they did.

Tks

 

[FLIGHT762]

Beating a dead Horse here but, for those who are still confused on how these Comp shell holders work, the standard deck height of a shell holder is .125". It is from the deck (where the base of the case sits, to the top of the shell holder).

The Comp shell holders lowers the deck height, in .002" increments giving longer datum to base numbers. So, from a .125" standard shell holder, The Comp shell holders go +.002"= .127", +.004= .129", +.006= .031", +.008= .133" and +.010= .135".

The deck is lowered, NOT the top of the shell holder, that remains the same so you get the same top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die contact.

You see how that works in the video in post #6.

If you have a die that will not give you SAAMI minimum at full cam over, the Comp shell holders will not work for you.

On one of my F/L dies, I can set SAAMI minimum with the +.006" shell holder. I'm then able to have .004" on either side of the +.006". This works for me with different brass and for brass that has been annealed, I can adjust shoulder bump without having to move the die.

With the #1 set Comp shell holders, I reload for 4-308 rifles, 260 Rem., 30/06, 270 Win. and 338/06. These shell holders give me flexibility with all of those cartridges.

Last year, I had an issue with a F/L die that wouldn't size down to SAAMI minimum. I sent the die back to the Mfg. who skimmed the die .009". When I got the die back, it worked fine. You can also sand down a regular S/H also.

I think someone already mentioned that there's no manufacturer that makes shell holders that that decreases the TOP of the shell holder.

 

[obelisk57]

Beating a dead Horse here but, for those who are still confused on how these Comp shell holders work, the standard deck height of a shell holder is .125". It is from the deck (where the base of the case sits, to the top of the shell holder).

The Comp shell holders lowers the deck height, in .002" increments giving longer datum to base numbers. So, from a .125" standard shell holder, The Comp shell holders go +.002"= .127", +.004= .129", +.006= .031", +.008= .133" and +.010= .135".

The deck is lowered, NOT the top of the shell holder, that remains the same so you get the same top of the shell holder to the bottom of the die contact.

You see how that works in the video in post #6.

If you have a die that will not give you SAAMI minimum at full cam over, the Comp shell holders will not work for you.

On one of my F/L dies, I can set SAAMI minimum with the +.006" shell holder. I'm then able to have .004" on either side of the +.006". This works for me with different brass and for brass that has been annealed, I can adjust shoulder bump without having to move the die.

With the #1 set Comp shell holders, I reload for 4-308 rifles, 260 Rem., 30/06, 270 Win. and 338/06. These shell holders give me flexibility with all of those cartridges.

Last year, I had an issue with a F/L die that wouldn't size down to SAAMI minimum. I sent the die back to the Mfg. who skimmed the die .009". When I got the die back, it worked fine. You can also sand down a regular S/H also.

I think someone already mentioned that there's no manufacturer that makes shell holders that that decreases the TOP of the shell holder.

If I buy the competition shell holder set, is there still a need to get a Reddings standard shell holder? Do you use the standard Redding shell holder at all after you got your competition set? Also I already have RCBS and Lee shell holders for the same caliber, although I know they have difference in dimensions.

 

[Mauser48]

If I buy the competition shell holder set, is there still a need to get a Reddings standard shell holder? Do you use the standard Redding shell holder at all after you got your competition set? Also I already have RCBS and Lee shell holders for the same caliber, although I know they have difference in dimensions.

Technically you can use whatever shell holder you want for your other dies you just have to use that same one every time. I use a regular shell holder for decapping and bullet seating. Easier to remember that rather than one of the 5 competition sizes.

 

[obelisk57]

I think they work pretty well at maintaining consistency, IME having some cam over with the comp shell holders is more consistent then having the sizer screwed up off of a
shell holder.

The biggest advantage to me is when your loading for different rifles with the same dies and not having to adjust dies every time. I just write down in my loading book what # shell holder for that particular rifle/barrel and never move my dies.

They aren’t perfect, on one of my sets the +.002 and +.004 are more like .004 apart so In one of my 22-250’s my options are .001 or .005 of bump and in one of my other sets the +.010 is more like +.013 but it works good with some belted mags.

Technically you can use whatever shell holder you want for your other dies you just have to use that same one every time. I use a regular shell holder for decapping and bullet seating. Easier to remember that rather than one of the 5 competition sizes.

But during shoulder bumping, which is the only reason why I would get these competition shell holders, does the standard shell holder come into usage at all? Do you use it to set up shoulder bumping? I am debating whether I should buy a Redding standard .125 shell holder if I already have two other brands of shell holders for the same caliber.

 

[Mauser48]

But during shoulder bumping, which is the only reason why I would get these competition shell holders, does the standard shell holder come into usage at all? Do you use it to set up shoulder bumping? I am debating whether I should buy a Redding standard .125 shell holder if I already have two other brands of shell holders for the same caliber.

You could set up the die with any of the competition shell holders and adjust your bump as necessary with the different sizes. The overall height of the shell holder is the same on all the redding competitions, the difference is where the case head actually sits inside the shell holder. I set the die up with the .010 shell holder (holds the case farther away from the die) and work my way in until the desired bump is achieved. So no, you don't need a standard shell holder for sizing.

 

[Marine52]

But during shoulder bumping, which is the only reason why I would get these competition shell holders, does the standard shell holder come into usage at all? Do you use it to set up shoulder bumping? I am debating whether I should buy a Redding standard .125 shell holder if I already have two other brands of shell holders for the same caliber.

Just think of the standard .125 shellholder as another shoulder bump step option. The Redding +2 SH is .127 and if that happens to size a case with the base-to-shoulder datum measurement .002 longer than what you want, then that means the standard .125 SH is just right.

 

[918v]

You could set up the die with any of the competition shell holders and adjust your bump as necessary with the different sizes. The overall height of the shell holder is the same on all the redding competitions, the difference is where the case head actually sits inside the shell holder. I set the die up with the .010 shell holder (holds the case farther away from the die) and work my way in until the desired bump is achieved. So no, you don't need a standard shell holder for sizing.

Unless you have a Forster sizing die and several of my rifles.

 

[obelisk57]

Just think of the standard .125 shellholder as another shoulder bump step option. The Redding +2 SH is .127 and if that happens to size a case with the base-to-shoulder datum measurement .002 longer than what you want, then that means the standard .125 SH is just right.

I haven't received my Redding competition SH set I just ordered. What prompted me to ask this question is that but when I set up the .002 shoulder bump for my 7mm08 using the standard Lee SH, but accidentally switched to the RCBS SH, the bump increased to .004-.005. So obviously these SH's are not the same. But now I know, I should have stuck with the same SH. So using your example, hypothetically, if the +.002 (.127) Redding SH is .002 too long, and I DON'T have a standard Redding .125 would either RCBS or Lee .125 SH work? Or I need to buy a Redding standard SH to accomplish that? Thanks again.

 

[FLIGHT762]

No, you don't need to buy a standard Redding shell holder. Use the 2 (Lee & RCBS) shell holders you already have. There can be a little variation in standard shell holders as you found out. As long as you're getting the shoulder bump you need, you're good. You just adjust your die.

If you can't get enough bump with a regular shell holder, you have to either skim off the bottom of the F/L die or take a standard shell holder and sand off a few thousandths off of the top. It doesn't happen a lot, but it can happen. I had it happen on one die I have. I sent the die back to the Mfg. who skimmed .008" off of the bottom of the die. The die worked properly after that.

 

[obelisk57]

No, you don't need to buy a standard Redding shell holder. Use the 2 (Lee & RCBS) shell holders you already have. There can be a little variation in standard shell holders as you found out. As long as you're getting the shoulder bump you need, you're good. You just adjust your die.

If you can't get enough bump with a regular shell holder, you have to either skim off the bottom of the F/L die or take a standard shell holder and sand off a few thousandths off of the top. It doesn't happen a lot, but it can happen. I had it happen on one die I have. I sent the die back to the Mfg. who skimmed .008" off of the bottom of the die. The die worked properly after that.

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Marine52]

I haven't received my Redding competition SH set I just ordered. What prompted me to ask this question is that but when I set up the .002 shoulder bump for my 7mm08 using the standard Lee SH, but accidentally switched to the RCBS SH, the bump increased to .004-.005. So obviously these SH's are not the same. But now I know, I should have stuck with the same SH. So using your example, hypothetically, if the +.002 (.127) Redding SH is .002 too long, and I DON'T have a standard Redding .125 would either RCBS or Lee .125 SH work? Or I need to buy a Redding standard SH to accomplish that? Thanks again.

I think you may have answered your own question. The RCBS and Lee SH’s in theory are .125 exact but can be out of spec. I would go ahead and get a standard Redding SH. They’re only a few bucks. And yes, once you have a die set up and have the bump you want, don’t switch shellholders.

 

[Marine52]

@obelisk57. This thread is old and the info below is pretty much a summary of earlier posts but I hope it helps.

There is so much confusion on the use of Redding comp shellholders. Primarily because of Redding’s worthless description/instructions on their use

From Redding: “ Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace”. What? totally incomprehensible.

The Comp Shellholders sold by Redding and the modular Shellholders from Area 419 work the same way. They lower the floor of the shellholder that the case base sits on. So for one marked +4, the floor is dropped 0.004” and generates a sized case with 0.004” less bump (longer base-to-datum length) relative to a standard .125” shellholder. This difference is important because you don’t have to touch the die to see the change and you can adjust bump w/o having the die in firm solid contact with the shellholder. However, many of us like that solid contact and these comp shellholders can be interchanged w/o adjusting the die because the shellholder shelf that contacts the die is not shifted.

Note: if you are not getting sufficient bump (ie your case base-to-shoulder datum measurement is longer than you want and you have firm die-to-shellholder contact (camover), then these comp shellholders will not help, with one exception: The Modular Shellholder kit from Area 419 does come with a -2 insert which reduces the shellholder depth to .123, effectively giving you .002” more bump than a standard SH.

The diagram and the numbers below were produced by a New Zealand shooter on another forum using his Mitutoyo micrometer. The column “headspace effect” really should read “shoulder setback effect.”

 

[918v]

@obelisk57.

From Redding: “ Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace”. What? totally incomprehensible.

What’s so hard to understand about that? Reloading requires the user to understand what headspace is and how a shell holder and sizing die interact. If a person is unable to figure that out they have no business reloading especially with specialized tools.

 

[Marine52]

What’s so hard to understand about that? Reloading requires the user to understand what headspace is and how a shell holder and sizing die interact. If a person is unable to figure that out they have no business reloading especially with specialized tools.

I know what rifle chamber headspace is and I know what case base-to-shoulder datum length is. But how do you decrease case-to-chamber headspace? I’ve never heard of this term. I‘m ready to learn. Show me a reference in a known loading guide, manual, or any quote from a reputable shooter who uses this term. Redding’s use of the term decrease is unfortunate because many new reloaders see that term and think these shellholders somehow help to decrease the case shoulder datum relative to the chamber headspace when compared to a standard .125 shellholder. Also, the comp shellholders are universal and not related to your rifle’s headspace. They are directly related to the standard .125 shellholder and the numbers show the INCREASE in case base-to-shoulder datum measurements when compared to the standard SH.

 

[918v]

They increase shoulder length which in turn decreases headspace which is the SPACE between the caseHEAD and the breech face.

 

[obelisk57]

@obelisk57. This thread is old and the info below is pretty much a summary of earlier posts but I hope it helps.

There is so much confusion on the use of Redding comp shellholders. Primarily because of Redding’s worthless description/instructions on their use

From Redding: “ Each shellholder has a distinct black oxide finish and is clearly marked to indicate the amount it will decrease case-to-chamber headspace”. What? totally incomprehensible.

The Comp Shellholders sold by Redding and the modular Shellholders from Area 419 work the same way. They lower the floor of the shellholder that the case base sits on. So for one marked +4, the floor is dropped 0.004” and generates a sized case with 0.004” less bump (longer base-to-datum length) relative to a standard .125” shellholder. This difference is important because you don’t have to touch the die to see the change and you can adjust bump w/o having the die in firm solid contact with the shellholder. However, many of us like that solid contact and these comp shellholders can be interchanged w/o adjusting the die because the shellholder shelf that contacts the die is not shifted.

Note: if you are not getting sufficient bump (ie your case base-to-shoulder datum measurement is longer than you want and you have firm die-to-shellholder contact (camover), then these comp shellholders will not help, with one exception: The Modular Shellholder kit from Area 419 does come with a -2 insert which effectively reduces the shellholder depth to .123, giving you .002” more bump than a standard SH.

The diagram and the numbers below were produced by a New Zealand shooter on another forum using his Mitutoyo micrometer. The column “headspace effect” really should read “shoulder setback effect.”

Thanks for such a detailed explanation!!

 

[obelisk57]

I already have this shell holder set, it works great. One question that has arisen is why can't I just measure a as-fired case, find the length, then simply move down the shell holders starting from #10, and when I hit the shell holder that would give me -.002-.003 from the as-fired length, and just call it a day? Should -.002--.003 have no problem of bolt free-fall? Why put it inside the rifle? There are also videos suggest to ful length size a case to establish a base line, why bother?

 

[Ckleeves]

I already have this shell holder set, it works great. One question that has arisen is why can't I just measure a as-fired case, find the length, then simply move down the shell holders starting from #10, and when I hit the shell holder that would give me -.002-.003 from the as-fired length, and just call it a day? Should -.002--.003 have no problem of bolt free-fall? Why put it inside the rifle? There are also videos suggest to ful length size a case to establish a base line, why bother?

I do it like that all the time I don’t think there is anything wrong with it, as long as you’re confident the brass you’re measuring is fully formed to your chamber.

 

[Marine52]

I already have this shell holder set, it works great. One question that has arisen is why can't I just measure a as-fired case, find the length, then simply move down the shell holders starting from #10, and when I hit the shell holder that would give me -.002-.003 from the as-fired length, and just call it a day? Should -.002--.003 have no problem of bolt free-fall? Why put it inside the rifle? There are also videos suggest to ful length size a case to establish a base line, why bother?

I believe the method you describe is what many reloaders do. There’s nothing wrong with that method. However, as @Ckleeves said, if your fired brass is not fully fire-formed to the same length as your rifle headspace then you may be excessively bumping the brass and you may not get a consistent bump. Most reloaders chamber the sized case as a final check to ensure their sizing is correct. Also, many shooters incrementally increase shoulder bump until they get to the point where the bolt easily closes on a chambered case with the extractor and firing pin removed.

My procedure is different. I’m not saying it’s the only way but it works well for me. I don’t rely on my fired brass for setting the die shoulder bump. I use a go-gauge and then use aluminum foil on end with a smidge of paste to find exact rifle headspace (reg foil is about .0004 - .0006” and ” and heavy foil is right at .0008”). I do this on a newly chambered barrel and then I have a set target number for the rest of its life. If I want .001” case-shoulder clearance, all I do is index off of the go-gauge. I will confirm case fit in the chamber for the first sizing of cases for the new barrel and then I never do that again for the life of the barrel.

 

[918v]

I do it like that all the time I don’t think there is anything wrong with it, as long as you’re confident the brass you’re measuring is fully formed to your chamber.

A FL die will push the shoulder forward before bumping it back. So even though the case isn’t fully formed to the chamber the plus .010” shell holder should not size the case enough to allow you to close the bolt. It depends on the sizing die and your individual chamber. With my rifles I have found the plus .010” won’t allow the bolt to close. The plus .008” will let the bolt close but with resistance because the breech face is dragging on the case head. So I use the plus .006” which allows the bolt to close easily. This is with Redding and RCBS.

My Forster dies need a standard shell holder. With the plus .002” shell holder the bolt closes with a drag.

I have a couple rifles where I needed Redding to make me a custom plus .012” shell holder because the chamber was so long.

 

[obelisk57]

I believe the method you describe is what many reloaders do. There’s nothing wrong with that method. However, as @Ckleeves said, if your fired brass is not fully fire-formed to the same length as your rifle headspace then you may be excessively bumping the brass and you may not get a consistent bump. Most reloaders chamber the sized case as a final check to ensure their sizing is correct. Also, many shooters incrementally increase shoulder bump until they get to the point where the bolt easily closes on a chambered case with the extractor and firing pin removed.

My procedure is different. I’m not saying it the right way but it works well for me. I don’t rely on my fired brass for setting the die shoulder bump. I use a go gauge and then use aluminum foil on end with a smidge of paste to find exact rifle headspace (reg foil is about .0004 - .0006” and ” and heavy foil is right at .0008”). I do this on a newly chambered barrel and then I have a set target number for the rest of its life. If I want .001” case shoulder clearance, all I do is index off of the go gauge. I will confirm case fit in the chamber for the first sizing of cases for the new barrel and then I never do that again for the life of the barrel.

Can you elaborate on the aluminum foil method? What did you mean by "aluminum foil on end"? Thx.

 

[Marine52]

Can you elaborate on the aluminum foil method? What did you mean by "aluminum foil on end"? Thx.

Sorry my explanation was not very good. I have a Manson 308 go-gauge that is 1.630” base-to-shoulder datum. It chambers in one of my FTR rifles with easy bolt closure. I stick a piece of normal aluminum foil (measured at 0.00045”) on the base end of the gauge and it is difficult to close bolt (reg foil is about .0004 - .0006” and ” and heavy foil is right at .0008”). So I enter my rifle headspace at 1.6305 in my log book. Remember this is a comparative number. While I trust the Manson gauge accuracy, it may be off a bit but as long as I index my case-shoulder setback on this specific gauge I’m ok. When I’m sizing brass, I set my die to set the case-shoulder 1/2 thousand less than the go-gauge. That gives me a 0.001” case-shoulder clearance to the chamber on fire-formed brass.

 

[obelisk57]

Thank you for the detailed steps. Very helpful.