Rifle Scopes Question on Sig Scopes and other "2nd Tier" brands

[longshot2000]

Looked over the Tango 6 at the NRA Exhibit hall today. Seemed like a nice scope. I am used to more Tier-1 scopes, like S&B, Leupold, Nightforce. The price point on the Tango 6 is half. What experience do people have with it.

Also, (might be heresy), but I say the same about Vortex. I know their top of the line scopes are highly admired, but what I saw from Vortex ran quite a wide range of quality, functions and features. Most not impressive. So, to that end, where do you draw the line with Vortex, and is it all made in China?

I don't see myself with a Burris or a Bushnell, but what other brands are worth considering in that "2nd tier."

 

[Yoteski]

Research more if you think Sig Tango 6 is second tier and Leupold is Tier-1.

Uneducated post is uneducate.

 

[longshot2000]

Research more if you think Sig Tango 6 is second tier and Leupold is Tier-1.

Uneducated post is uneducate.

Enlighten me. I am very impressed with the higher-end Leupolds. Most of my shooting is tactical and I build and buy military weapons and replicas. I am not fond of the Leupold hunting scopes, but the Mark 6 and 8 are quite good, and the Mark 4 6.5-20 with 34mm tube is impressive. What I don't know anything about is Sig, other than I like their handguns.

 

[sierracharlie338]

If you spend the coin on S&B or a Mark 8, why are you even looking at "2nd Tier" scopes?? While I have no physical experience with a Tango 6 or any Sig optic for that matter, what I have read and seen about the Tango line is it is designed to fill a niche between the S&Bs and 800-1000$ optics.

If I were only putting "Tier 1" glass on my rifles, I personally would stick to that.

 

[longshot2000]

If you spend the coin on S&B or a Mark 8, why are you even looking at "2nd Tier" scopes??

Too many rifles and not enough scopes, and my rifles are jealous and all want their own scope. Seriously, I have a few guns that are not mil-spec, and want do not need $3,000 scopes on them, so I was looking at other alternatives. I also have USO. Expensive, but not totally in-love. I could sell that and buy two lower-priced optics. Also, given the variety of guns, not all are shooting super long range.

 

[Yoteski]

I apologize, my response was stupid and blunt. Sig hired Leupolds engineers to design their scopes. I think you'll find several direct design correlations if you compare, say the mk6 to the Tango 6.
Vortex high end lines are not made in China.

 

[Steel+Killer]

The only Sig optic product I have experience with is the Sig Kilo 2000 LRF probably the best LRF I have used in its price range ($400). I did get to look at a Sig Tango 4 scope at Field and Stream seemed pretty decent for $1000ish or whatever it was. As far as Vortex goes I probably wouldn't touch anything below the PST/PST GEN2 line. I am like you I have more rifles than scopes I would love to put a NF, S&B on all of them, but the walllet just won't permit it. I really wish NF would come out with a f1 5-25 SHV MIL/MIL scope that would compete in the PST prince range. I think the reason they won't is because they think it would compete with there own ATACR.

 

[Patton63]

I put a Sig Tango4 6-24 on the rifle my son intends to use to shoot in local matches. The price was attractive, particularly if he doesn't quite know yet whether the competition bug will stick with him. FFP, illuminated reticle, very tactile locking turrets, zero return and zero stop. The turrets have proven to be repeatable and track well. The glass is not as bright as more expensive scopes, but I find this to be a quality scope for its purpose. I have no complaints about it and would buy another one if the need arose.

 

[lennyo3034]

Enlighten me. I am very impressed with the higher-end Leupolds. Most of my shooting is tactical and I build and buy military weapons and replicas. I am not fond of the Leupold hunting scopes, but the Mark 6 and 8 are quite good, and the Mark 4 6.5-20 with 34mm tube is impressive. What I don't know anything about is Sig, other than I like their handguns.

My view of leupold is the exact opposite of yours. I think their hunting scopes are competitive with others having similar feature set and price. The Mark 6 and 8 are good scopes but overpriced for what you get. I've used a Mark 8 and it was a very good scope with stunning glass, but not $1000+ better than a S&B.

The 3-18 Mark 6 is a decent scope if it tracks well (I think the low profile turrets solve this problem) due to its small size but for the price I will choose the March 3-24 every time. If size is not a factor, there are many scopes that outperform it in its price range.

The Mark 4s are ancient technology with high price tags. I'd take a PST or XTR 2 over them in a heartbeat...even if they were the same price as the Mark 4.

 

[longshot2000]

I apologize, my response was stupid and blunt. Sig hired Leupolds engineers to design their scopes. I think you'll find several direct design correlations if you compare, say the mk6 to the Tango 6.
Vortex high end lines are not made in China.

No worries. Nice of you to post this. All good here.

 

[longshot2000]

My view of leupold is the exact opposite of yours. I think their hunting scopes are competitive with others having similar feature set and price. The Mark 6 and 8 are good scopes but overpriced for what you get. I've used a Mark 8 and it was a very good scope with stunning glass, but not $1000+ better than a S&B.

I don't disagree. When building, say, an Mark 12 or SAM-R, or M110, and even the newer M2010, you get to know Leupold for what it is -- a piece of history, and I think they perform well for what they did for our military. I actually don't hunt (some shotgun wingbird), so I only know that Leupold is very popular in hunting. Nightforce has also been very popular on some military sniper weapons, and now S&B for the Mk13 and the new M110A CSASS on an HK platform. I like the S&B and NF alot more.

I can draw a correlation to military weaponry as well. I did not think the Knights Armament KAC M110 (SR25) was a better plaform than others, like LaRue and LMT. KAC improved the barreling and accuracy overtime, but still it was not the best gun. But it is important to understand and, for me to buy and build from KAC parts for military replicas. Same is true of the PRI plaform and Douglas barrels for the Mk-12, but if I use a Kreiger barrel on an Mk-12, I am not being true to the build.

Back to scopes... I mentioned I a new USO. I like it, but really a bit disappointing for the price on a 5-25. Something i cannot put my finger on. It has great glass, H59 reticle, 34mm tube, knobs are fine. All the right parts and functions. When the parts are put together, maybe it just does not drive like a BMW. Maybe it is too big. Maybe the parts just are not engineered to work in harmony. Or, could be me.

ahh. Now to my original question. Sig scopes, and others in the "2nd tier" or mid-tier or whatever (forget the Leupold disucssion, it set us back). The reviews I have seen on the Sig Tango series is reasonably good. Looks like the Tango 4 and 6 are the same, with 6 having more zoom power, and a much different price tag. I am truly interested in what others have observed. Also, what other brands are worth considering that have mid range magnification (like 2-15) and a higher magnification (like 5-25) that are under $2,000, or are not the big name brands?

What I have learned is Vortex should have two brands. One for the Razor snipers, and one for the red-dot / horseshoe optic market. I have only known the made in China Vortex, when I returned my Sparc. The numbers speak for themselves when you look at S&B and Razor with top shooters, and more are using Vortex. You can imagine my surprise, since my experience with the Sparc forever put an incorrect bias in my thinking about Vortex.

 

[Hondo64d]

I don't see myself with a Burris or a Bushnell, but what other brands are worth considering in that "2nd tier."

Have you used a Bushnell LRHS, DMR II or ERS? If not, you are making some incorrect assumptions about where they belong in the pecking order. First and foremost, a scope needs to retain zero, track accurately and return to zero. The Bushnells mentioned have a great reputation for doing this. My LRHS has been flawless in this department and the glass is pretty darned good.

Read in Kilswitch's thread about Bushnell...

John

 

[longshot2000]

back to the Sigs... what thoughts do people have?

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Just got myself a tango 6 3-18. Will do a little playing around with it and compare it to the nightforce F1 5.5-25 and the vortex razor gen II x27.

 

[BarrettBoy]

Since the scopes are relatively new to the market, I bet it will be quite some time before you see real substantial feedback above the standard "first impression" review.

 

[brix8984]

See this thread for sig info

 

[JMGlasgow]

Just got myself a tango 6 3-18. Will do a little playing around with it and compare it to the nightforce F1 5.5-25 and the vortex razor gen II x27.

Do you mean a Nightforce NSX 5.5-22? If so, they didn't make one with a front focal plane reticle. The only NXS with ffp reticle is the 3.5-15 F1.

They do make a 5-25 ATACR F1, and a 5-25 BEAST.

 

[VDVSNIPER]

Do you mean a Nightforce NSX 5.5-22? If so, they didn't make one with a front focal plane reticle. The only NXS with ffp reticle is the 3.5-15 F1.

They do make a 5-25 ATACR F1, and a 5-25 BEAST.

Typo, 5-25 is what I meant to say, it's the atacr.

 

[JMGlasgow]

I thought so. I just noticed my own typo, meant NXS.

 

[IanHusaberg]

I'm on my 3rd Tango 4 scope. First was 3-12x42 MOA milling reticle(sold). Second is a Tango 4 4-16x44 MOA DEV-L (S&W M&P 10) and I'm sold on there scopes(keeper). The 3rd was an impulse buy that I just sold on the PX 6-24x50 MOA milling reticle. The last on was really light weight. After having the Dev-L reticle, I can't go back to a plane jane reticle. I would say they are almost on par with vortex? I've had Burris XTR2 and Athlon Cronus and have sold all of them except,I kept the Vortex gen 2 razor. The glass has impressed me with the Tango 4 line. Maybe not on the highest power magnification, but I am pleased and keep buying them. I'd like to get my hands on a Tango 6 for the final verdict. I'd really like to check out the Leveling system thats inside the view finder? Tango 6 4-24x50 is calling my name.

 

[longshot2000]

I looked at the Tango 4 and 6 at the NRA Exhibit Hall this weekend. It looks like the 4 and 6 are very similar. The 6 has a 34mm tube (generally) and the 4 has 30mm tube, and then there is the 6x v. 4x zoom.

The other difference was the 6 has the leveling system. Pretty interesting. To be fair, I have never really given much thought to shooting "off cant" and have done more of a mental swag than ever using a bubble level. Then again, my shooting, while certainly long distance, is more tactical than bench rest. Even in prone, I can get to level most often. The indicator lights on the 6 have a yellow on the right and the left. If you are level, you have no lights. They are very much in the far periphery. I found it helpful, and not a gimic, but I am sure some purist will see it as the latter.

The illuminated reticle seemed a bit bright, compared to a NF, for example. Then again, I maybe it was set too high. The booth got crowded, and while the Sig reps were helpful, I did not spend 20 minutes adjusting each optic. What is your experience with the illumination ?

 

[USACS]

The Sig scopes are decent, but like Vortex, you are going to run the gamut of quality and options. The Tango4 line is just like the Vortex Razor Gen1, while the Tango6 line is like the Razor Gen2 in terms of options and upgrades. Not at all surprising, considering that they reportedly share the same glass and manufacturer. Sig scopes happen to be just like Vortex, in that you run the gamut of quality. In terms of Vortex, I will never own another non-Razor riflescope from them. There is such a massive difference in quality and design with the Razor Gen2 vs everything else they offer. I've found the same with the Sig scopes with the Tango6 versus everything else they offer. The quality of scopes also dictates where they're made. The top end for them are made in Japan. The middle area like the Viper PST are pacific rim, and the low end are Chinese. I know the Sig Tango6 is Japanese, but I'm not sure about the lower level offerings.

If S&B, Kahles and Hensoldt are "1st Tier", then yeah, I would consider Sigs to be "2nd Tier". Nothing I've looked through ever beats the high end German/Austrian scopes for optical quality. I won't come down on Sig for not being to their level of scope, but they're not intended to be. I have a short amount of time behind the Sigs, and I'm impressed with what they offer for what they charge. I'm not a fan of their 1-6x for a couple reasons, but the line overall is a good option.

 

[jasont]

Just got myself a tango 6 3-18. Will do a little playing around with it and compare it to the nightforce F1 5.5-25 and the vortex razor gen II x27.

I know this is an old post, but what are your thoughts regarding the tango six

 

[VDVSNIPER]

I know this is an old post, but what are your thoughts regarding the tango six

I've had the scope now for about a year and really like it. I got it used for a screaming deal, and I don't think anything comes close in terms of quality for under $800. the gen1 tango 6 is not on the same level as my atacr, but it also doesn't cost almost 4x as much. Great little scope, you would not be disappointed. I would buy this scope over anything out there right now that's $1,400 or under.

 

[jasont]

do you know what was Improved from the one gen. to gen 2 tango 6. I can get brand new tango6 4-24x50 with the devl christmas tree brand new for 1800 I just haven't heard much about that particular model. but a longterm report as yours is very encouraging thank you

 

[VDVSNIPER]

The tube went from 30mm to a 34mm, shorter turrets, and somewhere I read a different coating on the lens

 

[Eric B.]

"Hondo64D" is correct. The Bushnell Elite scopes are EXCELLENT for the money.
I compete with a Bushnell ERS 3.5 - 21 x 50 on my 6.5 CM Ruger Precision Rifle.
On my 6.5 PRC Browning X-Bolt Pro mountain rifle I shoot a Bushnell Elite LRHS 4.5 - 18 x 44 W/ G3 illuminated "Xmas tree" reticle.

Both scopes, while not "ED" glass, like mid and top end SIG scopes, are very high quality scopes in all respects.

 

[Kartman]

Trijicons are a great but maybe closer to Tier 1.5 than 2 in price. Same for the Leupold Mark5's

 

[Hollywood 6mm]

"Hondo64D" is correct. The Bushnell Elite scopes are EXCELLENT for the money.
I compete with a Bushnell ERS 3.5 - 21 x 50 on my 6.5 CM Ruger Precision Rifle.
On my 6.5 PRC Browning X-Bolt Pro mountain rifle I shoot a Bushnell Elite LRHS 4.5 - 18 x 44 W/ G3 illuminated "Xmas tree" reticle.

Both scopes, while not "ED" glass, like mid and top end SIG scopes, are very high quality scopes in all respects.

The XRS2, DMR2 Pro, and the new DMR3 and XRS3 are all using ED glass. I think a lot of people are going to get their eyes opened when they get to try an XRS3 in person.