Rifle Scopes Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

M

Moadrifter

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Jul 16, 2012
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#1
I’m buying a scope for a new field 338 LM. I asked several questions in 3 previous posts that eliminated the options that don’t fit this application, so I’m down to 5 wonderful options – hence the post title "splitting hairs"
laugh.gif
. This forum is awesome! I have a few more specific questions then I can place the order.

The application is LR mountain hunting in Alaska and Montana to 1,000 yards max and ELR iron targets out to 1,700+ yards. Extra carry-around weight needs to be justified by meaningful improvements in field results. The rifle plus scope base and rings weigh about 8 lbs 2 oz. The modified weight goal (after forum member feedback nixed the lighter scope option due to insufficient optics) is between 10 lbs 1 oz (31 ounce scope) and 10 lbs 8 oz (38 oz scope).

All of these scopes have been discussed a ton except the March 5-40x56mm. However, there is very little discussion of the differences in field performance for rough use LR hunting and ELR target, so some of the answers we are getting are different than the majority of the posts you see. This is why IMHO this post is not re-hashing old ground. See the PS information at the bottom for links to the app specific information we have picked up so far prior to this post.

Here are the remaining scope options listed in increasing build weight:

March 5-40x56mm (31.3oz scope, 10 lbs 1 oz complete build)

S&B PM II 3-20 (32.4 oz scope, 10 lbs 2 oz complete build)

Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50mm (35 oz scope, 10 lbs 5 oz complete build)

Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm (38 oz scope, 10 lbs 8oz complete build)

S&B PM II 5-25x56mm (38 oz, 10 lbs 8 oz complete build)

I like all of these FFP reticles, with a preference for the March FX FML due to the .05 Mil floating dot surrounded by 0.5 mil clear box that lets you see around the dot to the target at 1,000+.

It’s now down to these questions:

(1) Is there any concern with any of these scopes in a rough field ELR 338 LM application?

(2) If you have used any of these scopes for LR and ELR, which scope do you recommend and why? I would especially appreciate LR/ELR feedback on the March 5-40 because there is not much out there yet.

(3) All these scopes are reported to have really solid mechanicals with great tracking and repeatability and dialing for distance seems easy to master with practice. Would you agree with this for all these scopes? Have you had any poor experience with any of the turrets in field conditions?

(4) Is the optics quality difference between scopes, or the turret/mechanical ease of use difference among these scopes enough to justify the weight increase of 7 oz from lightest to heaviest?

If you can spare the time to reply, thanks in advance! I will post some pics of the finished rifle with scope after I digest the feedback, make the buy and mount it. I’ll also post the first target grouping pics for the XCR II 338 LM in the bolt rifle forum.

PS – in the three previous posts we learned some useful things to know about scopes for this application:

In posts:
Field Test: Razor v SS v DMR G2 v NXS
Questions: SWFA SS HD 5-20x50 for Long Range
JROB300 did an excellent longer term comparative review concluding that the SS 5-20x50m has unbelievable optics for the price (this is reported everywhere), however extended use under competition stress shows that the turrets are not in the same league as the high end scopes listed above for high precision ELR and/or rough field work applications (turret slop +/- 1 click is also reported in other posts).

In post:
Does Razor 5-20 Stand Up To Top LR Optics?
JROB300 also cited competition experience that shows the Razor is a rock solid proven ELR performer out to 2,000+ yards that competes right in there with S&B and the other top scopes in field stress conditions.

In post:
Question on March F 3-24x42mm For 338 Lapua XCR II
SSSamauri made it clear that the March 3-24x42mm is a fantastic scope for medium range work with magnification up to about 18x (and it weighs much less than 50/56mm scopes), but the 42mm objective simply doesn’t gather enough light at LR/ELR to compare optically with the scopes still on the final list above. Also from the same post thread, .17Sniper and tolnep reported very favorable mid-range results with the March 5-40, excellent reticle, but slightly degraded optical performance and eyebox fussiness above 30X (still beats 20/25X though).

PSS- if you haven’t read them, forum member ILya did some great work in the following reviews:
High End Tactical Scopes: Part II
High End Tactical Scopes: Part III

And fireguyty did a great review of the March 3-24 that he used for tac comp:
Review: March-F 3-24 x 42 FFP


 
#2
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Oh let's see how I can answer this without writing a book.

S&B is the king of the hill, the undisputed champion of tactical scopes. If money is no object, you want the best and to feel good about the choice, choose them.

March, I've heard too much about the gathering light, finicky eyebox, eye relief, etc. I've never tried one, don't have much desire to, sounds like a good scope for benchrest but not hunting/tactical. Again, never held one, ymmv.

Vortex Razor, great scope, great value. If you're happy with the magnification range and size/weight of the scope then you won't be disappointed in the Vortex. Great customer service too.

I stayed out of the other thread, but I will say that the SWFA SS is a hell of a scope for the money. I know nothing of Jrob300's background or what competitions he's shot with it, but I have never missed a click when I've shot mine under high stress comps. Also think about how big .1 mil is and how big targets/animals are, if you miss because of being off one click then only you are to blame since there were other factors involved. I've shot it in at least three very large matches, most recently in Louisiana where I took 5th place out of close to 70. I was the only one in the top 6 to not be using an S&B scope, probably the top 10, but I know the top 6 for sure. I have three of the 5-25 S&Bs at home and wouldn't travel all the way to LA with a scope that I thought would put me at a disadvantage. The SWFA SS worked flawlessly. The reticle is the perfect thickness for tactical and hunting work, you don't want fine reticles when trying to find targets/animals on brushy backgrounds. Remember when hunting you'll likely be walking around with your scope on 6X, those fine FFP reticles get pretty small at 6X.

Lastly, you've left out possibly one of the best choices for your new rifle. The new Kahles Tactical scopes could be the answer you're looking for. Looks to be everything you want and appears to be a little more streamline then the 5-25 S&B and the 5-20 Vortex. I haven't put my hands on one, but plan to in the next two weeks. I wouldn't make my decision just yet.

 
#3
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

out of the above mentioned, I'd lean towards that 3-20, maybe to the razor, but i'ed also throw nightforce and kahles in the mix. keep in mind the mentioned have a lifetime warranty, march has a 5 year warranty, personally, if i'm going to beat around in the bush with a big rifle and scope, i'd make sure i'm covered after spending that kind of $
 
#4
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Jasonk - thanks for the excellent and expert feedback!

In a field application like this, would you spend the extra 6 oz to go with the S&B PM II 5-25x56mm over the S&B 3-20x50mm?

Interesting to hear that you "never missed a click" with the SS. There are quite a few posts complaining about the +/- 1 click issue. For me, if I have a sub-MOA rifle, and I can shoot sub-MOA in the field, I want the rest of the error to be due to imperfect drop and especially windage - definately don't want to give up 3.6" at 1,000 yards due to click uncertainties. I agree that most of us (including me) can't aim anywhere near 0.1 mil in the field, but it's all about error stack-up and there is no reason to toss 0.1 mil away if you can afford not to. The issue now is that based on your highly successful competition experience with the SS, it's not clear that there really is a 0.1 mil click issue! Maybe it's a scope to scope variation problem and other forum members will weigh in?

Even with your great success with the SS - would you choose it over the Razor for a new build? If you use the rings that come with the Razor then the price difference (when the SS is not discounted) is only about 12%.
 
#5
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Opticsspecialist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">out of the above mentioned, I'd lean towards that 3-20, maybe to the razor, but i'ed also throw nightforce and kahles in the mix. keep in mind the mentioned have a lifetime warranty, march has a 5 year warranty, personally, if i'm going to beat around in the bush with a big rifle and scope, i'd make sure i'm covered after spending that kind of $ </div></div>

Thanks. That's two recommending to take a look at the Kahales - will do.

Absolutely - the March warranty issue is a huge mistake for Deon!! I mentioned in another post that in my career I have worked with several Japanese companies and all they have to do is set up a US subsidiary (not very expensive at all - just register a Delaware C-corp or LLC) and they can make any warranty they want including lifetime, 1,000 years, whatever!! The "we can't because our government won't let us" whining is baloney - IMO they don't trust the product enough to assume the returns liability down the road like all the other top scope makes do. Still, they have a combination of weight, features and optics that provide an interesting expansion of the high end scope envelope - and from what I hear Kelbly will be around to back them up. I would really love to hear from people who have beat them up a bit for field LR. In this particular build, there is the opportunity to get useful magnification of 25-30X when the mirage allows, top optics, top turrets and lowest available weight. Even with mirage and eyebox limiting useful magnification most of the time, my eyes are not what they used to be and I pick another 0.1-0.3 mil if I can jack the mag up from 15 to 25 at longer ranges - you can't hit what you can't see.
 
#6
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Before I answer some of the above, when are you actually planning on purchasing this scope? Now, 3 months, 9 months?

As for the missing a click, with any scope I'm sure there has been times when in a hurry I'll dial a click past my intended spot, SWFA SS or many others. Typically when dialing quick you are shooting at 1.5 moa targets or greater so there's room for error. If I dial one over or under, I simply cheat a little under or over dead center on the target. Rarely in matches when under time constraints are you shooting at tiny targets.

I have 3 of the SWFA scopes, all clicks are about the same. Are they deep and crisp, not like the S&B for sure, but are they 100% capable....for sure. Funny thing is, slightly "mushy" clicks as people like to call them actually let you dial your scope faster. That's why you'll see that most guys shooting comps don't want the MTC option that S&B offers, that deep clunk at every mil takes extra effort to turn past.

Vortex Razor, great scope, can't wait to try the 10 mil per rev version. The top turret size would be a turn off for me in a hunting scope, but it's probably no more than an S&B 5-25.
 
#7
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before I answer some of the above, when are you actually planning on purchasing this scope? Now, 3 months, 9 months?

As for the missing a click, with any scope I'm sure there has been times when in a hurry I'll dial a click past my intended spot, SWFA SS or many others. Typically when dialing quick you are shooting at 1.5 moa targets or greater so there's room for error. If I dial one over or under, I simply cheat a little under or over dead center on the target. Rarely in matches when under time constraints are you shooting at tiny targets.

I have 3 of the SWFA scopes, all clicks are about the same. Are they deep and crisp, not like the S&B for sure, but are they 100% capable....for sure. Funny thing is, slightly "mushy" clicks as people like to call them actually let you dial your scope faster. That's why you'll see that most guys shooting comps don't want the MTC option that S&B offers, that deep clunk at every mil takes extra effort to turn past.

Vortex Razor, great scope, can't wait to try the 10 mil per rev version. The top turret size would be a turn off for me in a hunting scope, but it's probably no more than an S&B 5-25.

</div></div>

Thanks. Not really in a hurry. I can use one of my Leupolds to break the rifle in and play with it. If I need to wait to get the right glass - no problem.

SS is excellent glass - no question based on almost all the posts. It's not operator error I'm worried about on the SS clicks. Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be an ambiguity on which click you are landing on. If I have misinterpreted the previous posts on this, please advise.

As far as time to dial in, not sure the heavier clicks would make any difference to me - would prefer that to mushy where you miss a click or two. For speed it's more important to me to have something in the range of 10 mil per revolution. If we are stalking up from close to MR, I would typically use my Finnlight 7mm rem mag with a Swaro 3.5-18x44 (16 oz) and shoot the BRH mil bars. There is a little (but not much) more time for this application.
 
#8
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

If it's not a rush, I'd wait and see how the S&B 3-20's hold up after some use, same with the Kahles 6-24 and the early reviews of the Vortex 10mil per turn Razor's.
 
#9
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it's not a rush, I'd wait and see how the S&B 3-20's hold up after some use, same with the Kahles 6-24 and the early reviews of the Vortex 10mil per turn Razor's.

</div></div>

Jasonk - Don't you think the S&B 3-20 will have similar durability as the 4-16 and 5-25?

Is there anyone reading this thread who has been using the S&B 3-20 or the Kahales 6-24?
 
#13
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

I have a 3-20x and K624i and while I wish i could comment at this time I cannot, except to say I dig my Kahles a lot. It's probably my new favorite scope.

That said, more common are the S&B 5-25x as stated, it's the best of the bunch when it comes to ELR Scopes. My only suggestion on any S&B is to avoid the Locking Turrets if you can, and Ditto on the MTC, hate that turret, you're more likely to miss one or two tenths with an MTC S&B than the SSHD. Like every time, if you need to use something like 2.2 mils you have to skip it, go past and then come back because hitting 2.1 or 2.2 is nearly impossible with an MTC.

I want to comment on the SS and John's review, while a very good personal review, it was also very subjective. The fact people were sending the Bushnells back due to the CA in droves, which I believe he might have as well, he gave it much higher marks simple because it was cheaper, not because it was better.

The Turret issue with the SSHD was corrected, they had a bad run where the manufacturer supplied a turret cap with less splines then it required, so people found it was "off" depending on the zero. They corrected this by making sure all of them after had the correct number of splines in there, and not all of them that shipped were that way. It's a current non-issue and like Jason I have never missed a .1 for any reason on mine. he happened to have one from the early buy that was off, not an updated one, so he is comparing an early one vs a corrected one.

John also liked the GAP reticle over the SSHD, another personal choice, you can never get two people to agree on the same reticle. I have shot several ELR course at Gunsite and my go to reticle in my S&B 5-25x is the P4, not the fine, but the original, standard, P4 which many people dislike because of the thickness. I happen to covet it. My next favorite is the Klein over almost any other reticle from them, though I do have an MSR and have very little issue with it. The Kahles is the real deal and I definitely like it's reticle, not to mention it is cheaper and every bit equal the S&B.

The Vortex is excellent, they have done a great job to fix every user complaint, and you have to give props to a company like that. I don't think you can go wrong with one.

But if you are giving points for price, then you virtually would discount the S&Bs, across the board, especially the 3-20x, considering the weight placed against the SSHD because of price. I mean when everyone and their brother is wrapped around the axle when it comes to glass quality, then you have one scope with outstanding glass beating a lesser priced scope, and you rate the lesser quality above the better of the two... well I question that judgement, especially when there are pages of people returning them specifically for the Optical clarity issues. Don't get me wrong I have a Bushnell and mine has some CA but not enough to toss it, but I still use my SSHD over it, even on my Tac Ops I keep an SSHD. Heck my Hensoldt has CA... and turrets that don't line up and they cost $3600.

Find a way to look through them, most of this is highly subjective and what you get is people pay more than they can or should have and then have to spend the rest of the scope's service defending it because they paid a lot. I have pretty much all of them and will easily give or take one the instant it goes down. if you see me using it for more than a video or two, chances are I like it enough to keep it Otherwise I am more apt to donate it to a needy newbie. But that is another conversation.

 
#14
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

I have a March too ,dislike it... it's a glorified Benchrest or F Class scope, not a field or tactical one. They are quality but really picky with the eye box, and on the higher power I think they distort too much.

They are small I will give them that, and at the lower powers are pretty darn nice to look through.

As for your other request, been there done that, got all the t shirts.
 
#15
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a 3-20x and K624i and while I wish i could comment at this time I cannot, except to say I dig my Kahles a lot. It's probably my new favorite scope.

That said, more common are the S&B 5-25x as stated, it's the best of the bunch when it comes to ELR Scopes. My only suggestion on any S&B is to avoid the Locking Turrets if you can, and Ditto on the MTC, hate that turret, you're more likely to miss one or two tenths with an MTC S&B than the SSHD. Like every time, if you need to use something like 2.2 mils you have to skip it, go past and then come back because hitting 2.1 or 2.2 is nearly impossible with an MTC.


The Turret issue with the SSHD was corrected, they had a bad run where the manufacturer supplied a turret cap with less splines then it required, so people found it was "off" depending on the zero. They corrected this by making sure all of them after had the correct number of splines in there, and not all of them that shipped were that way. It's a current non-issue and like Jason I have never missed a .1 for any reason on mine. he happened to have one from the early buy that was off, not an updated one, so he is comparing an early one vs a corrected one.

The Vortex is excellent, they have done a great job to fix every user complaint, and you have to give props to a company like that. I don't think you can go wrong with one.

But if you are giving points for price, then you virtually would discount the S&Bs, across the board, especially the 3-20x, considering the weight placed against the SSHD because of price. ... even on my Tac Ops I keep an SSHD. Heck my Hensoldt has CA... and turrets that don't line up and they cost $3600.

Find a way to look through them, most of this is highly subjective and what you get is people pay more than they can or should have and then have to spend the rest of the scope's service defending it because they paid a lot. I have pretty much all of them and will easily give or take one the instant it goes down. if you see me using it for more than a video or two, chances are I like it enough to keep it Otherwise I am more apt to donate it to a needy newbie. But that is another conversation.

</div></div>

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Really</span> helpful - thanks! The SS seems to be back in the running and based on the other thread you are running the Kahles looks like another world class scope to evaluate. I have a hunch I will end up owning many/most of these jewels and will need to read a bit more and pull the trigger on the first one :) As far as looking through them, my buddies and I shoot lighter weight / less performance MR scopes and there aren't a bunch of gun shops that have more than one of the best to compare side by side. I shoot good Swaro glass (and a bunch of Leupold) so I know the difference, but at this level I think you need to either read the posts or do your own pepsi challenge side by side because there is no way to compare glass from day to day with varying conditions. I think I found a place about 90 minutes away that has S&B, Vortex and IOR and I'm going to call them tomorrow to make sure they have stock. Even then, there is only so much you can learn by looking through a scope in a show room without getting into the field and stressing the equipment and yourself. This was the whole idea of the threads I posted - what are the real world LR/ELR field results for these beauties? Like I said, a little more reading and then buy one - after I have a few I can help the next guy by giving him first hand field comparisons :)

Thanks again LowLight!
 
#18
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a March too ,dislike it... it's a glorified Benchrest or F Class scope, not a field or tactical one. They are quality but really picky with the eye box, and on the higher power I think they distort too much.

They are small I will give them that, and at the lower powers are pretty darn nice to look through.

As for your other request, been there done that, got all the t shirts. </div></div>

Which March do you have? What makes it so "benchy" instead of useful in the field? A couple of other members have said that if you keep the 5-40 down around 30x it's excellent and there were no complaints about eyebox issues at this power. Not so?

Sounds like you've shot most of these scopes alot and have deep field experience (I'm new so I hope I'm not offending you with an understatement). Your previous post you said the S&B 5-25x56mm is the ELR benchmark. In a carry-around 338LM, would you say it's worth giving up 7 oz from 10 lbs 1 oz to 10 lbs 8 oz compared to the other options?
 
#20
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in the USMC, I have no issue "carrying' things...

If you have a problem carrying your rifle because of the "scope" you need to find a new hobby... either that or join Cross Fit </div></div>

LowLight - Thanks for keeping us free and protecting our way of life! I'm greatly appreciative of the knowledge you are sharing with us less experience shooters!

Fair enough - I have carried my 12.5 lb Weatherby 460 build up and down Alaska enough to agree that it's not a deal breaker at all. It's just that extra equipment weight needs to be justified and I was asking if you thought it was justified. Sounds like your answer is yes.

I do cross fit by the way and love it
smile.gif


 
#21
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Great comments and I have virtually nothing to add here with one exception. I would like to expand my comments about the turrets on the SS 5-20.

I don't like them nearly as much as the NF HS (and I've tried both revisions of the SS). I never missed a plate because of them, but they definitely took more of my time and attention than I prefer, shooting plates that range in size from 2 moa to 1 moa inside 1000 yds with a time limit (something else to remember here, I'm not 20 anymore and focusing on an elevation knob is getting harder and harder, so I benefit from a scope that just snaps right into position...). I don't shoot nearly the competitions that the rest of these guys do. But I'm very analytical about my equipment and one of the things I look for is "does it make my job easier, faster, less thought, or not?". But Frank is right, most of scope preference is very personal. I've tried very hard to remind people of this repeatedly. What works for one, may or may not for another. There is no perfect scope. But hopefully, by reporting my observations, along with my comments, you can get closer to making your own decisions without doing what I've done and that is buying them all and using them.
wink.gif
But at the end of the day, you rally won't know FOR SURE until you do.

Jason also reiterated my comment about hunting. .1 mil in field situations under 500 yds. on a 12-14" kill zone won't be the factor that keeps meat out of the freezer. I know a lot of guys who simply hold elevation, some of them with a regular crosshair, and they tag out every year. That's not the scopes fault.

There are a TON of guys who have the SS 5-20 and love it. Just because there are a couple things about it that caused me to become unfaithful and mover on to greener pastures, does not mean its a poor scope.

Think of it this way... sure, in my test I ranked it 4th of 4. But what if of those four, they got 9.1, 9.2, 9.4 and 9.6 of 10? Would that change your perspective? When you consider that 4 years ago only one of those scopes even existed, we've come a long way.

John
 
#22
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be really great to hear from owners of Premier and March who have shot in rugged field conditions with their scopes.
</div></div>

I have a Premier 5-25 on my 338, but it is not a light weight rig. It is my dedicated ELR rig thus I don't know how much perspective I can give you in the weight department. However I can tell you that glass is beautiful and the scope is built like a tank. Also Premier has some of the best CS in the industry. I bought my scope used and when I got the only complaint I had was that the turrets were a little mushy, which I mentioned on this forum when responding to another members post. Within a couple hours I had a PM for Paul (Plange on this site) at Premier asking me about the issue. In the end I sent the scope in to Paul where he upgraded the turrets and inspected the scope for any additional issues while it was there. Speaking of the turrets I can say that they are some of the best in the industry in terms of design.
 
#23
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be really great to hear from owners of Premier and March who have shot in rugged field conditions with their scopes.
</div></div>

I have a Premier 5-25 on my 338, but it is not a light weight rig. It is my dedicated ELR rig thus I don't know how much perspective I can give you in the weight department. However I can tell you that glass is beautiful and the scope is built like a tank. Also Premier has some of the best CS in the industry. I bought my scope used and when I got the only complaint I had was that the turrets were a little mushy, which I mentioned on this forum when responding to another members post. Within a couple hours I had a PM for Paul (Plange on this site) at Premier asking me about the issue. In the end I sent the scope in to Paul where he upgraded the turrets and inspected the scope for any additional issues while it was there. Speaking of the turrets I can say that they are some of the best in the industry in terms of design. </div></div>

Thanks Longshot38 - helps alot! How do you think the Premier 5-25 holds up in rough field use? Can you say why you chose it over S&B for your dedicated ELR? They are the same weight, and from the responses from Lowlight and others the advice seems to be to go for optics/turrets/ease of use/durability over weight for this app. With this plus the fact that my old eyes like more mag when I can get it, I'm leaning toward the S&B 5-25 or Premier 5-25. With all his great reviews and experience, ILya recommends the Premier and Hensoldt 6-24/72 (72mm is too big for this app) as his top tactical scopes above $2K:
Riflescopes: Over $2000 / No Price Limitations

I shoot mil dots alot and haven't used turrets much because I have been shooting out to MR, so I have opinions about reticles. These are all fantastic reticles but I really like the March FML-1 recticle on the 5-40 bc it has all the information I need with nothing else plus the 0.05 mil floating dot surrounded by the clear 0.5 mil box that only covers 1.8" at 1,000 yards and 0.04 mil lines for most of the other subtensions. It also has up to 40X (think I can get about 30X useful mag when not much mirage is present) and is the lightest 56mm out there. However, the experienced ELR shooters are steering away from the March so right now it's down to S&B and Premier (and some more Cross-fit work
wink.gif
).
 
#24
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

The Premier suffers from the same issue the MTC turrets do, you can't hit the .1 or .2 after the heavy detent. It's nearly impossible to go straight to 2.1 or 2.2, you have to go past it and back or you risk skipping right over it. The heavy detent is like a launch point to sail past the .1 - . 2

John

My thoughts were, that leaving out the following,

1. The HDMR was a replacement scope, that you returned the first one...

2. The SSHD turret cap issue was resolved

Put a big gap in the review. If you read the comments, people were looking at the SSHD as if you had a series of problems and not that you had an issue that was resolved by the company.

By not stating up front you returned the Bushnell the first time, you also leave people with the impression there is no chance of them having the same issue.

You can grade both on the facts you had issues with both, but replacing one and not the other and not stating that up front is a bit misleading.

MD,

Ilya's reviews are generally based on "looking through it" and not using it... he doesn't get in to the mechanics of the system. He doesn't look at returns, problems, resolved of otherwise, just advertised features and glass quality.

If I was doing this with my money today i would be looking at the Kahles and the S&B and if I need to save a few dollar the Vortex then the SSHD. But that is me, the choice is of course yours as you have to live with it
 
#25
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in the USMC, I have no issue "carrying' things...

If you have a problem carrying your rifle because of the "scope" you need to find a new hobby... either that or join Cross Fit </div></div>

LOL! Preach it! I hunt elk in Colorado (where I grew up) with a 18lb 338LM. I'm 36.
 
#26
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be really great to hear from owners of Premier and March who have shot in rugged field conditions with their scopes.
</div></div>

I have a Premier 5-25 on my 338, but it is not a light weight rig. It is my dedicated ELR rig thus I don't know how much perspective I can give you in the weight department. However I can tell you that glass is beautiful and the scope is built like a tank. Also Premier has some of the best CS in the industry. I bought my scope used and when I got the only complaint I had was that the turrets were a little mushy, which I mentioned on this forum when responding to another members post. Within a couple hours I had a PM for Paul (Plange on this site) at Premier asking me about the issue. In the end I sent the scope in to Paul where he upgraded the turrets and inspected the scope for any additional issues while it was there. Speaking of the turrets I can say that they are some of the best in the industry in terms of design. </div></div>

Thanks Longshot38 - helps alot! How do you think the Premier 5-25 holds up in rough field use? Can you say why you chose it over S&B for your dedicated ELR? They are the same weight, and from the responses from Lowlight and others the advice seems to be to go for optics/turrets/ease of use/durability over weight for this app. With this plus the fact that my old eyes like more mag when I can get it, I'm leaning toward the S&B 5-25 or Premier 5-25. With all his great reviews and experience, ILya recommends the Premier and Hensoldt 6-24/72 (72mm is too big for this app) as his top tactical scopes above $2K:
Riflescopes: Over $2000 / No Price Limitations

I shoot mil dots alot and haven't used turrets much because I have been shooting out to MR, so I have opinions about reticles. These are all fantastic reticles but I really like the March FML-1 recticle on the 5-40 bc it has all the information I need with nothing else plus the 0.05 mil floating dot surrounded by the clear 0.5 mil box that only covers 1.8" at 1,000 yards and 0.04 mil lines for most of the other subtensions. It also has up to 40X (think I can get about 30X useful mag when not much mirage is present) and is the lightest 56mm out there. However, the experienced ELR shooters are steering away from the March so right now it's down to S&B and Premier (and some more Cross-fit work
wink.gif
). </div></div>

Well the durably is an issue that I can only offer limited prospective about. Like I said before when I had my 338 built weight really wasn't much of a consideration. The rifle was built for the sole purpose of engaging steel distances beyond a mile. Thus I don't really carry the rifle around much, in fact I drive it around more then I carry it. I use it more like an F-Class rifle then anything else.

To be honest the reasons I purchases a Premier had more to do with economics then anything else. I found a member selling off his Premiers and thus was able to get a killer price on the scope. On top of that when I purchased the scope Premier was a different company, they were still based in VA and I try to buy american when I can. Not to say that they are worse off now, because that is yet to be seen and like I said before the CS is excellent (Paul is still there servicing scopes and doing an excellent job of it). Thus my final decision on scopes came down to USO or Premier.

Lowlights advice to you was good. Forget about weight and get the optic that suits your needs best. If one wants to shave weight in a rifle then do so via the rifle, not the optic. It is better to reduce weight via barrels and stocks then to cut it from the optics. Now with that being said I love the Gen II XR reticle and I think the turrets on the Premier Hertiages are some of the best on the market. But that is not to say that others aren't good as well. Some guys think the P4F reticle is the bees knees, and some can't stand MTC turret designs. But that is a subjective thing.
 
#27
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Premier suffers from the same issue the MTC turrets do, you can't hit the .1 or .2 after the heavy detent. It's nearly impossible to go straight to 2.1 or 2.2, you have to go past it and back or you risk skipping right over it. The heavy detent is like a launch point to sail past the .1 - . 2

MD,

Ilya's reviews are generally based on "looking through it" and not using it... he doesn't get in to the mechanics of the system. He doesn't look at returns, problems, resolved of otherwise, just advertised features and glass quality.

If I was doing this with my money today i would be looking at the Kahles and the S&B and if I need to save a few dollar the Vortex then the SSHD. But that is me, the choice is of course yours as you have to live with it </div></div>

Lowlight - Exactly! Ilya's reviews are awesome (second to none!) but he is reviewing for a broad range of shooter applications (like most posts) and most people don't do this stuff. If you are shooting on a sunny day in Arizona or at the range it's not the same as an 850 yard kill shot to the other ridge cold, mist and mud.

Really good info on the Premier - didn't see that anywhere else. Nix.

Looked at the Kahales, another incredible scope and a good bargain for what it is. Still leaning to the S&B since there is that little bit extra and the price difference is not that large.
 
#28
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moadrifter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be really great to hear from owners of Premier and March who have shot in rugged field conditions with their scopes. </div></div>

Well the durably is an issue that I can only offer limited prospective about. Like I said before when I had my 338 built weight really wasn't much of a consideration. The rifle was built for the sole purpose of engaging steel distances beyond a mile. Thus I don't really carry the rifle around much, in fact I drive it around more then I carry it. I use it more like an F-Class rifle then anything else.

To be honest the reasons I purchases a Premier had more to do with economics then anything else. I found a member selling off his Premiers and thus was able to get a killer price on the scope. On top of that when I purchased the scope Premier was a different company, they were still based in VA and I try to buy american when I can. Not to say that they are worse off now, because that is yet to be seen and like I said before the CS is excellent (Paul is still there servicing scopes and doing an excellent job of it). Thus my final decision on scopes came down to USO or Premier.

Lowlights advice to you was good. Forget about weight and get the optic that suits your needs best. If one wants to shave weight in a rifle then do so via the rifle, not the optic. It is better to reduce weight via barrels and stocks then to cut it from the optics. Now with that being said I love the Gen II XR reticle and I think the turrets on the Premier Hertiages are some of the best on the market. But that is not to say that others aren't good as well. Some guys think the P4F reticle is the bees knees, and some can't stand MTC turret designs. But that is a subjective thing. </div></div>

Thanks Longshot38! This makes sense given Lowlight's comments on Premier. It's down to S&B or Kahles since there is not much member feedback supporting March 5-40x56 for this particular application. Need to do some more research on the Khales, but likely to go S&B 5-25x56.
 
#29
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonthomps</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was in the USMC, I have no issue "carrying' things...

If you have a problem carrying your rifle because of the "scope" you need to find a new hobby... either that or join Cross Fit </div></div>

LOL! Preach it! I hunt elk in Colorado (where I grew up) with a 18lb 338LM. I'm 36. </div></div>

Ok, Ok - so weight doesn't win over scope performance. I'll double up on the kettle bell section of my Cross-fit circuits
smile.gif
Even so, IMHO 18 lbs is too much to lug around through the brush not due to physical capacity but because it just makes it a bit trickier to crawl around over and under stuff. Same as having a really long barrel. This build will come in at 10.5 lbs even with the heaviest scopes under consideration which is very manageable.
 
#31
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

I don't like the MTC turrets on the S&B either. You jump past the 2.1 setting but don't know by how much, you have to raise your head to see it and break cheek weld.
There is a cure for it, S&B will remove the "big clunk" from your MTC turret, then it should dial like the double turn we have all come to love. I just sent my 3-20 to Jerry for this mod.
 
#32
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John

My thoughts were, that leaving out the following,

1. The HDMR was a replacement scope, that you returned the first one... </div></div>

Frank,

Thanks for your comments. I do appreciate them, however, the Bushnell was not technically replacement. I first bought the H59 quite a while ago and did return it to Horus for a refund. I owned another Razor in the interim and just recently tried an example of the DMR with the G2 reticle. I wasn't trying to hide anything, but now that you say it like that, it would have added value to the review. My goal is to give people good information and hopefully weed out some of the pain of choosing an optic.

I will add a comment to my review.

John
 
#33
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T2CH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't like the MTC turrets on the S&B either. You jump past the 2.1 setting but don't know by how much, you have to raise your head to see it and break cheek weld.
There is a cure for it, S&B will remove the "big clunk" from your MTC turret, then it should dial like the double turn we have all come to love. I just sent my 3-20 to Jerry for this mod. </div></div>

So you're saying instead of buying the no-MTC double turn, buy the MTC single turn and then have Jerry mod to get rid of the extra heavy mil detent - correct?
 
#34
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

No he is saying he doesn't care for the MTC knobs and to get the standard dual turn. The 5-25 doesn't come in a single turn config.
 
#35
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Correct Rob, what I was also saying is if you want the 3-20 you can have the MTC feature removed by S&B. The 3-20 only comes with the MTC turret. The MTC is a double turn turret.
 
#36
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No he is saying he doesn't care for the MTC knobs and to get the standard dual turn. The 5-25 doesn't come in a single turn config. </div></div>

Got it, makes it easy. Thanks.
 
#37
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

i have the march 5-40 56 and i love it.

but if you want the proven king of the hill its the s&b pmII 5-25.

if i stay in this hobby i will buy one (or if there is a better version when i buy, that one) but i will keep my march.

I think the s&b pmII 5-25 was used on the world record sniper kill. what was it? something over 2700 yards? thats long range in a true tough environment.

that is what i would have bought if i could have simply ordered a new one and had it shipped out immediately.

still i dont regret for a minute buying the march. in fact i like the high power so much its got me wondering about S&b's 12-50 56x instead of a 5-25 if i buy one.
 
#38
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Deal done and paid for - S&B 5-25x56, H2CMR, CCW, no MTC, no later than end August - $3499 all in shipped and insured. With the extra time, I think I'll get an HS-precision stock and get a custom bedding and tuning - should be done about when the scope comes in. Will send some pics when it's all built.

Thanks very much for all the help everyone - awesome community of experts! I can't wait to shoot this new 338 LM with awesome glass smile
 
#41
Re: Questions On Splitting Hairs With Top ELR Scopes

Threads like this are the reason this site has so many members. Concise answers, with justification for the opinions, from guys with the background to provide legitimate responses.
 
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