Sidearms & Scatterguns RDS Pistol people, why dont you have a seat right over here......

[308pirate]

@pmclaine I have a lot to say about this later when I have the time.

I converted to all RDS after my first season competing in USPSA Carry Optics. I've learned quite a bit in the roughly 40-45K rounds I've fired through RDS pistols in practice, training, and matches; plus my engineering background has let me sift through all the bullshit out there about mounting issues.

I'm away taking a handgun class, I'll PM you next week after I get back home.

 

[pmclaine]

@pmclaine I have a lot to say about this later when I have the time.

I converted to all RDS after my first season competing in USPSA Carry Optics. I've learned quite a bit in the roughly 40-45K rounds I've fired through RDS pistols in practice, training, and matches; plus my engineering background has let me sift through all the bullshit out there about mounting issues.

I'm away taking a handgun class, I'll PM you next week after I get back home.

Looking forward to the info.

Not down in Haiti for this class are you? Attempting to be the American Bolivar/Pinochet?

 

[strikeeagle1]

seems like a pretty good deal....but the 6 mOA dot, that's still represents 1.5" @ 25 yards which we be an acceptable group.

 

[E. Bryant]

I run various versions of the Trijicon RMR on all my red dot pistols, including a Ruger MKIII. Do other sights work acceptably well? Maybe - but the RMR hasn't let me down, and saving $100-200/unit isn't worth the potential hassle.

Not sure that the dot size is a major factor for me. The 3.25 MOA dot "blooms" a bit to my eyes, the 6.5 MOA doesn't, and so the net result is about the same.

I do wish the RMR battery was accessable from the top, but in practice, this isn't a big issue. Just swap it immediately before a range session so you can reconfirm your zero, and life is good. If your mounting system is reliable, you won't get any significant shift. And it needs to be done 1x/year, at worst.

Some sort of co-witnessed sights are important for a defensive pistol IMO, but I'll leave the details (height and location of rear sight relative to the RDS) for others to argue. I like the Suarez steel suppressor-height sights on my Glocks and the OE Trijicon steel suppressor-height sights on my FN 509s.

I'd prefer that the mounting surface makes use of the locating holes in the RMR sight body, but the Suarez Glock slide cut is a snug fit to the external profile of the sight body and thus holds it very securely. Either way, I feel that there needs to be mechanical location of the sight to prevent improper loading of the fasteners.

For RMRs, ensure that either the slide mounting surface is dead-flat, smooth, and fully utilizes the seal on the bottom of the housing, or use one of the metal sealing plates.

Use only Energizer 2032 coin cells. Trust me on this. (Had some previous experience with an agricultural product in my day job that proved this to be true over a range of environmental conditions.)

 

[pmclaine]

My performance expectation as far as the mount.......

I want to do one handed racking off the RDS housing without worry.

Is that too much to expect?

Im still enamored of the Trijicon RMR.

Cost and its foot print being smaller than the slide cut are the remaining concerns.

It doesnt look like the Sig plate has any feature to fill the void space and secure the sight from recoil.

The CHPWS plate apparently does but reviews are dismal regards company performance and I watched a guys RMR fly off a CHPWS plate a couple weeks ago.......likely operator error.....he was the sort of guy in class that knew it all.

 

[pmclaine]

I run various versions of the Trijicon RMR on all my red dot pistols, including a Ruger MKIII. Do other sights work acceptably well? Maybe - but the RMR hasn't let me down, and saving $100-200/unit isn't worth the potential hassle.

Not sure that the dot size is a major factor for me. The 3.25 MOA dot "blooms" a bit to my eyes, the 6.5 MOA doesn't, and so the net result is about the same.

I do wish the RMR battery was accessable from the top, but in practice, this isn't a big issue. Just swap it immediately before a range session so you can reconfirm your zero, and life is good. If your mounting system is reliable, you won't get any significant shift. And it needs to be done 1x/year, at worst.

Some sort of co-witnessed sights are important for a defensive pistol IMO, but I'll leave the details (height and location of rear sight relative to the RDS) for others to argue. I like the Suarez steel suppressor-height sights on my Glocks and the OE Trijicon steel suppressor-height sights on my FN 509s.

I'd prefer that the mounting surface makes use of the locating holes in the RMR sight body, but the Suarez Glock slide cut is a snug fit to the external profile of the sight body and thus holds it very securely. Either way, I feel that there needs to be mechanical location of the sight to prevent improper loading of the fasteners.

For RMRs, ensure that either the slide mounting surface is dead-flat, smooth, and fully utilizes the seal on the bottom of the housing, or use one of the metal sealing plates.

Use only Energizer 2032 coin cells. Trust me on this. (Had some previous experience with an agricultural product in my day job that proved this to be true over a range of environmental conditions.)

I like the Suarez sights for their lack of any "eye catching" features like tritium dots.

I only want irons as backups not interference to finding the red dot.

Thank you for posting.

 

[aslrookie]

I’ve been shooting an RDS pistol for the last 4 years. My original optic was an RMR. I still have that same RMR today in use. The housing shows signs of use, not a safe queen by any means. It’s now on my M17 duty pistol.

I bought the RMR the same time as a G19 MOS. The optic was on the G19 the whole time. The round count is up there over the years. Sure, the RMR was more expensive than a blue label priced G19, but divide the cost over time used and round count and it’s a killer value. Nice things cost money.

The question of whether to have a dot or not is simply based on whether you can afford a RMR or not. If you can’t afford an RMR, then I’d rather just use irons. Settling for some swampfox bullshit or optics that break when dropped or racked off of hard objects is simply a waste of money.

 

[E. Bryant]

My performance expectation as far as the mount.......

I want to do one handed racking off the RDS housing without worry.

Is that too much to expect?

I'd happily hand you one of my Suarez-milled Glocks or OE-cut FN 509s and allow you to rack them using the RMR to your heart's content.

It would have been preferable that Trijicon found a way to use 8-40 screws for retaining the RMR, but the #6 screws work fine if there is proper mechanical registration provided by the mount.

 

[pmclaine]

I'd happily hand you one of my Suarez-milled Glocks or OE-cut FN 509s and allow you to rack them using the RMR to your heart's content.

It would have been preferable that Trijicon found a way to use 8-40 screws for retaining the RMR, but the #6 screws work fine if there is proper mechanical registration provided by the mount.

It may be worth the risk to deal with CHPWS plate to fill that small void when using the RMR....

SIG P320 RX Series / Pro Series / AXG Scorpion w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for Trijicon RMR / SRO / RCR / Holosun 407C / 507C / 507Comp / C&H EDC-XL / COMP - C&H Precision

SIG P320 w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for RMR / SRO / Holosun. CHPWS C&H PRECISION WEAPONS

chpws.com

@308pirate need your experience/engineering ability regards RMRs.

Im itching to buy pending the new Miele washing machine belt I need to order today does not bankrupt me.

 

[pmclaine]

I’ve been shooting an RDS pistol for the last 4 years. My original optic was an RMR. I still have that same RMR today in use. The housing shows signs of use, not a safe queen by any means. It’s now on my M17 duty pistol.

I bought the RMR the same time as a G19 MOS. The optic was on the G19 the whole time. The round count is up there over the years. Sure, the RMR was more expensive than a blue label priced G19, but divide the cost over time used and round count and it’s a killer value. Nice things cost money.

The question of whether to have a dot or not is simply based on whether you can afford a RMR or not. If you can’t afford an RMR, then I’d rather just use irons. Settling for some swampfox bullshit or optics that break when dropped or racked off of hard objects is simply a waste of money.

Your socio-economic bias is showing.

Poors need dots too.

 

[aslrookie]

Your socio-economic bias is showing.

Poors need dots too.

I’m so sick of the “poors” bs. It’s just as much as a victim mindset as liberals. I’m not on a baller budget. I bet most of these people cringing over the cost of an RMR have multiple guns. If the RMR is a priority, then sell off a gun that probably just sits in the safe. Most “poors” I’ve come across have a safe full of guns that would equal the cost or more of just one or two nice items.

It’s the “i need it now” mentality that catches people up. I’m guilty of it myself. I scrounge the PX looking at sub-par optics for sale and it’s tempting. But I know it’ll pay off to just keep saving and get a nice optic instead.

 

[gnochi]

The CHPWS plate apparently does but reviews are dismal regards company performance and I watched a guys RMR fly off a CHPWS plate a couple weeks ago.......likely operator error.....he was the sort of guy in class that knew it all.

Yep, user error. That design is a pass-through that fills the space, and is thin enough to not exacerbate offset moment flopping issues. (Technical term.)

That said, a design with one set of screw holes for mounting the optic, and another set for mounting the adapter to the slide, is extremely likely to be a shitshow.

It may be worth the risk to deal with CHPWS plate to fill that small void when using the RMR....

~Zero risk as long as the plate fits. Even if you weren’t using that plate you’d want to find some way - bedding, for example - to fill the front and rear gaps to minimize component stress from both parts of the recoil impulse.

 

[308pirate]

That said, a design with one set of screw holes for mounting the optic, and another set for mounting the adapter to the slide, is extremely likely to be a shitshow

That's exactly how CZ OEM optic plates work. Yet they work incredibly well.

The reason why is because CZ plates have a cruciform boss on the bottom that makes to a matching recess on the slide and a set of recoil bosses on the top that mate to matching recesses on the bottom of the optic.

All the screws do is hold the plate down. They are exposed to no shear stresses.

Oh and they're steel not aluminum.

 

[308pirate]

Looking forward to the info.

Not down in Haiti for this class are you? Attempting to be the American Bolivar/Pinochet?

Haiti isn't worth it.

Cuba, on the other hand........

 

[pmclaine]

That's exactly how CZ OEM optic plates work. Yet they work incredibly well.

The reason why is because CZ plates have a cruciform boss on the bottom that makes to a matching recess on the slide and a set of recoil bosses on the top that mate to matching recesses on the bottom of the optic.

All the screws do is hold the plate down. They are exposed to no shear stresses.

Oh and they're steel not aluminum.

If I go with the CPHWS plate the optic and plate are secured into the slide and the plate offers recoil bosses that mate into the RMR as well a "filler" flange to fill the gap between the slide and the optic.

Im thinking my buy will be

1. CPHWS Plate with the 6-40 screw kit they include
2. RMR in FDE 3MOA dot
3. Suarez sights

Got to talk to my engineer to confirm.

 

[pmclaine]

Spoke with my Naval Engineer. Since his retirement he has become a Navel Engineer.

He offered good argument for me to choose a 6MOA dot vs 3MOA.

My thinking was 3MOA is good for tight shots but reality is in classes (and life) the pistol is the secondary for use when the rifle is down and running away is not scripted into the training drill.

Had thought RMR might be like my Aimpoint PRO where dot size can be increased/decreased with intensity adjustments but that is not entirely the same.

Signed up for Trijicons "ExpertVoice" program hoping to snag a discount.

This is me....

 

[gnochi]

That's exactly how CZ OEM optic plates work. Yet they work incredibly well.

The reason why is because CZ plates have a cruciform boss on the bottom that makes to a matching recess on the slide and a set of recoil bosses on the top that mate to matching recesses on the bottom of the optic.

All the screws do is hold the plate down. They are exposed to no shear stresses.

Oh and they're steel not aluminum.

For sure, that’s exactly how it’s supposed to be done and it can work super well if sufficient engineering is applied. Joe Blow who just slaps something in there that fits, on the other hand…

 

[308pirate]

For curiosity sake, next time I'm shooting I will try shooting with no dot. I bet I'm still deadly out to 10yds. Just because muscle memory...I don't really use irons within 10yds..it'll probably print pretty well center of window.

I was at Tim Herron class this weekend and yesterday the guy next to me and I decided to shoot at a 15 yd USPSA target with the dot turned off. He had a Holosun 507C and I an SRO. As long as your index is good, landing shots in the A and C zones is not that hard. Closer in, one can do same pretty quickly.

An RDS with a shorter window (RMR, Holosun 504/407C) will make it even easier.

 

[pmclaine]

Anyone ever do "ExpertVoice"?

Not the most understandable way to get some discounted Trijicon.

Don't know if I'm still waiting for approval but it seems my account is live.

My work doesn't seem to show in their vendors list.

Can't believe I am the cheapest guy on my job.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Removing an RMR once a year (max, if you’re anal) to replace a battery is something poors say to justify cheaping out and buying inferior shit. It’s 100% a non issue to remove two screws to replace a battery, and doesn’t even effect zero.

You replace your smoke detector batteries once a year and have to drag a damn ladder all around your house to do it. Which do you think is harder?

 

[Mr. Z]

That’s poors logic. Buy the 10 year smoke detectors.

 

[pmclaine]

Removing an RMR once a year (max, if you’re anal) to replace a battery is something poors say to justify cheaping out and buying inferior shit. It’s 100% a non issue to remove two screws to replace a battery, and doesn’t even effect zero.

You replace your smoke detector batteries once a year and have to drag a damn ladder all around your house to do it. Which do you think is harder?

Doesn't have hard wired smoke detectors and lectures about "poors"

Too funny.

 

[pmclaine]

RMR with 6 MOA Dot
Suarez Sights

Adapter plate to fit an RMR to the Sig AXG slide.

The last remaining question.....

CPHWS has a lot of features that look great but QC apparently sucks

SIG P320 RX Series / Pro Series / AXG Scorpion w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for Trijicon RMR / SRO / RCR / Holosun 407C / 507C / 507Comp / C&H EDC-XL / COMP - C&H Precision

SIG P320 w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for RMR / SRO / Holosun. CHPWS C&H PRECISION WEAPONS

chpws.com

(Que @redneckbmxer24 for opinion on CPHWS)

Trijicon makes one has recoil lugs but no filler to take up the front gap nor teeth to lock into the slide. Uses two sets of screws - one to secure plate to slide another to secure optic to plate.

RMR and SRO Adapter Plate for Sig Sauer P320 X-Carry | Trijicon®

Trijicon® products are known for offering legendary reliability, absolute accuracy and industry-leading technology to shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military and its allies.

www.trijicon.com

Springer Precision makes one.

Optics Mount for Sig Sauer P320 X5

Optics Mount for Sig Sauer P320 X5 springer precision

shop.springerprecision.com

Bobro makes one. Not really interested in their integrated rear though. Likely only works with M-18/M17 style guns with flat rear decks.

Sig P320 RMR Plate w/Integrated Rear Sight

www.bobroengineering.com

 

[Tallahassee]

RMR with 6 MOA Dot
Suarez Sights

Adapter plate to fit an RMR to the Sig AXG slide.

The last remaining question.....

CPHWS has a lot of features that look great but QC apparently sucks

SIG P320 RX Series / Pro Series / AXG Scorpion w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for Trijicon RMR / SRO / RCR / Holosun 407C / 507C / 507Comp / C&H EDC-XL / COMP - C&H Precision

SIG P320 w/ R1P / DPP CUT w/ RMR / Holosun Holes - Filler Plate for RMR / SRO / Holosun. CHPWS C&H PRECISION WEAPONS

chpws.com

(Que @redneckbmxer24 for opinion on CPHWS)

Trijicon makes one has recoil lugs but no filler to take up the front gap nor teeth to lock into the slide. Uses two sets of screws - one to secure plate to slide another to secure optic to plate.

RMR and SRO Adapter Plate for Sig Sauer P320 X-Carry | Trijicon®

Trijicon® products are known for offering legendary reliability, absolute accuracy and industry-leading technology to shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military and its allies.

www.trijicon.com

Springer Precision makes one.

Optics Mount for Sig Sauer P320 X5

Optics Mount for Sig Sauer P320 X5 springer precision

shop.springerprecision.com

Bobro makes one. Not really interested in their integrated rear though. Likely only works with M-18/M17 style guns with flat rear decks.

Sig P320 RMR Plate w/Integrated Rear Sight

www.bobroengineering.com

If you want to try out the 3 MOA dot, let me know, I can stop by HSC whenever. I think you might find the 6 MOA to be too big.

 

[pmclaine]

If you want to try out the 3 MOA dot, let me know, I can stop by HSC whenever. I think you might find the 6 MOA to be too big.

Much appreciated.

Hoping to take an hour at the end of work tomorrow and Friday to do some load testing at the 100 yard range. any overtime possibility will change that.

Probably shooting there next week too.

Ill PM my phone number and if you happen to be going its easy for me to get there M-F 0700-1500.

 

[pmclaine]

Regards my DOT size thoughts.

Only experience I have is with an Aimpoint Pro on a carbine.

In that experience I use the intensity settings to increase or decrease the size of the DOT.

If I want precise shots I use low power. In close I increase intensity for speed and the size of the DOT seems to grow.

My boss had his RDS at work the other day on a Romeo equipped Sig.

First thing I noticed was that the dot looked like three superimposed circles, kind of like a clover, and it was big.

Thinking his may be 6MOA, Ill have to ask him.

If it is 6MOA it looked very eye grabbing and at 25 yards would still not obliterate COM on a silhouette style target.

It would be useless for 50 foot slow bulls eye targets I often practice on but for practical shooting type targets it would be fine.

If these pictures are good representations....

1 MOA too small

3.25 MOA looks "Just Right" for a day at the range.

6.5 MOA Looks where you want to be if you want to be fast and might be stressed out and want hits without searching for the precise spot.

For my typical shooting I tend to be the 3.25 guy but Im wondering if I want this gun to be the 6.5 gun. Ive got iron sight guns for when time isnt a factor I guess.

 

[E. Bryant]

Once again, I'll state that with my astigmatism and corrective lenses, the 3.25 MOA RMR dot "blooms" a bit (although not as bad as with Aimpoints) and thus appears somewhat larger than its specified size. For unknown reasons, the 6.5 MOA dot does not suffer from the same effect with my eyes and lenses, and so the actual difference in perceived dot size isn't all that significant.

I highly suggest putting eyeballs on both options before making a purchase.

 

[pmclaine]

Once again, I'll state that with my astigmatism and corrective lenses, the 3.25 MOA RMR dot "blooms" a bit (although not as bad as with Aimpoints) and thus appears somewhat larger than its specified size. For unknown reasons, the 6.5 MOA dot does not suffer from the same effect with my eyes and lenses, and so the actual difference in perceived dot size isn't all that significant.

I highly suggest putting eyeballs on both options before making a purchase.

Why so sensible?

I bet you dont even go in the Bear Pit with that attitude.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

Once again, I'll state that with my astigmatism and corrective lenses, the 3.25 MOA RMR dot "blooms" a bit (although not as bad as with Aimpoints) and thus appears somewhat larger than its specified size. For unknown reasons, the 6.5 MOA dot does not suffer from the same effect with my eyes and lenses, and so the actual difference in perceived dot size isn't all that significant.

I highly suggest putting eyeballs on both options before making a purchase.

Definitely a smart way to go. Peoples eyes can do weird things with RDS and sometimes even just different reticles. If you're going to drop a significant amount of money you should be satisfied. I tend to feel that a 6 moa is pretty large for my liking, but its all about the end user's preference. The good thing is there's lots of good optics choices out there now for you to pick from OP!

Big fan of this setup-P365xl + Holosun 507k x2. Shoots like a much larger gun.

 

[Im2bent]

Might want to peruse this.

CHPWS RMR plates are JUNK and their customer service is just as bad

MDT repo'd their van. There's a nice backstory too. Deets bro. Gonna need them lol

www.snipershide.com

 

[liminalState]

So I have the DPP and my only complaint is that I've had crap (not poop, just you know unknown stuff) get in the diopter(?) or whatever it's called. You have to get a syringe and blast it with alcohol and water to get a clear window again. I was cleaning the f out of my glass thinking I had scratched it up after a 1000 round training weekend. Found a thread mentioning this as a problem and Leupold CS said this was the fix. I had it. You might have it too. It's not a critical failure just an annoyance.

I will still buy Leupold because I prefer my money to go to the USA, not Chy-na. Thinking I will stick with them but the new Aimpoint P-2 has me curious. Would love to see some early feedback from anyone who's gotten their hands on one.

 

[liminalState]

Might want to peruse this.

CHPWS RMR plates are JUNK and their customer service is just as bad

MDT repo'd their van. There's a nice backstory too. Deets bro. Gonna need them lol

www.snipershide.com

Worst customer service I've ever experienced. They had my firearm for about 3 months for a 2-3 day job. Work wasn't fully completed, I demanded that they ship everything back, I was done being lied to every time I called for an update. They should probably stop taking bourbon as f'ing payment.

If you were doing a pilot for "Gunsmith Rescue" and you needed a hit to get the season funded, these would be the guys you start with.

 

[teslawasframed]

I've been using the Leupold DPP NV on a Gen5 G17 MOS for about 6 months now. I like it a lot. Eats the battery a little faster than I'd like, but that's my only complaint.

Dawson Precision makes cowitness sights that are specific to the Leupold DPP, with factory plates or custom milled slides. Lots of options for height and sight composition. I'd say definitely check them out and see if they make versions for your pistol. I went with blacked out rear sights and a red fiber front post. From what I hear, other officers are happy with the Leupold factory add-on rear sights.

Photos attached, with apologies for potato quality phone camera. I am not kind to my gear.

 

[pmclaine]

Might want to peruse this.

CHPWS RMR plates are JUNK and their customer service is just as bad

MDT repo'd their van. There's a nice backstory too. Deets bro. Gonna need them lol

www.snipershide.com

Yeah been following that.

 

[RLT2ALO]

Im Bi-curious..........thinking of adding a red dot sight to my iron sight inventory.

Just bought this....I want to set it up for training, occasional CC use.

View attachment 7664742

RDS ready and I understand it will have the ability to mount Sig, Leupold and Trijicon products.

Ive considered Sigs offerings.

View attachment 7664764

The upside...

1. I can get a 10 percent discount
2. Appears dot brightness is adjustable
3. Batteries change topside
4. They appear to back the product with replacement on any issue
5. Looks like its trenched to co-witness with suppressor sights

The downside

1. Lots of people find they need a replacement.

Leupold

View attachment 7664765

The upside.....
1. LEO Discount
2. Parts made in USA
3. Good CS
4. Topside battery changes

Downside....
1. Perhaps I will need their CS at some point.
2. If I want to adjust dot brightness its an extra $100 for the NV model

Trijicon RMR

Upside

1. Creme de la Creme
2. Made in USA
3. Brick shithouse
4. Color options that more closely match my slide and appealing to my inner ghey.

Downside

1. Cost
2. You have to remove the fucking thing to change the battery - sure you dont change them often but that is fucking retarded.

Next I like the idea of Co-witness sights.

How important is it?

How possible is it?

Looks like the housing on the Delta Point will prevent it. The Sig option has a cut to facilitate it. RMR housing looks so low that a suppressor rear will sight over it.

Considering Sigs options....

View attachment 7664793

and judging by this picture appears they offer the X-sight version....

View attachment 7664795

Nice looking pistol by the way....sort of what I have in mind minus the threaded barrel.

The X-Sights and these Trijicons

View attachment 7664796

Appeal to me for the flared base on the front sight.

Im going to shoot the gun for the first time in about an hour.

I may like it so much in its present configuration that this doesnt matter.

Maybe Ill RDS my M-18 instead.

Any experience out there you can help me make my mind up.

Decisions here will decide my holster options.

I use Trijicon RMR's and SRO's. I have never had a problem with the sight holding zero. When you consider how violent the slide is on the sight when you shoot, using a product built like a "Brick Shithouse" seems to be a no-brainer. I can rack the slide with the Trijicon. A person I was shooting with tried it with his Vortex. Good thing for him the Votex has a great warranty.

 

[308pirate]

I also have significant astigmatism. It is completely corrected with a prescription but only if I look through the optical center of my glasses, which almost never happens when shooting a firearm.

I have pistol and rifle mounted reflex sights with dots in the following sizes: 2, 4, 5, and 6.5 MOA. One of them also offers the option of a 32 MOA circle and a 2 MOA dot inside a 32 MOA circle.

The 2 MOA dot appears, to my eyes, the most asymmetric. Meaning it's the one most affected by residual astigmatism due to not looking through the exact center of my lenses when shooting. 4 MOA and larger dots are virtually unaffected.

The big circle and dot inside a circle reticle options in most Holosun reflex sights are unusable for me. They are way too prominent and attract both my eyes too much making it too difficult to stay target focused. I've proved it to myself too many times by struggling to shoot well when covering the front of the optic with tape and using those reticles.

 

[308pirate]

I use Trijicon RMR's and SRO's. I have never had a problem with the sight holding zero. When you consider how violent the slide is on the sight when you shoot, using a product built like a "Brick Shithouse" seems to be a no-brainer. I can rack the slide with the Trijicon. A person I was shooting with tried it with his Vortex. Good thing for him the Votex has a great warranty.

One of my SRO equipped pistols hit the gravel pretty hard when I tripped and fell on a USPSA stage. Optic held zero just fine.

 

[RLT2ALO]

One of my SRO equipped pistols hit the gravel pretty hard when I tripped and fell on a USPSA stage. Optic held zero just fine.

Sucks to get old, huh Gunny.

 

[308pirate]

Sucks to get old, huh Gunny.

You would think so, except I routinely embarrass people 20 years my junior by smoking them stage after stage.

 

[RLT2ALO]

Good for you. Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm.

 

[pmclaine]

Might want to peruse this.

CHPWS RMR plates are JUNK and their customer service is just as bad

MDT repo'd their van. There's a nice backstory too. Deets bro. Gonna need them lol

www.snipershide.com

Been following that and Im in agreement something is amiss with that company.

They do seem to have an attractive solution for mounting to my specific gun.

Their plate incorporates a small filler to ensure the optic is secure against steel fore and aft.

Because the filler also follows the contour of the optic at the filler there is also some lateral security, perhaps 1%, but the screws will be doing the heavy work if there is any side impact. They also have the "teeth" that fit into the recess at the front of the slide optic cut - a little more security.

And.....their solution includes lugs to fit into the recoil recesses on the RMR.

I think this is Trijicons solution for mounting on my pistol....

AC32105 | Trijicon®

Trijicon® products are known for offering legendary reliability, absolute accuracy and industry-leading technology to shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military and its allies.

www.trijicon.com

The good is that Trijicon is not the shitshow CPHWS seems to be, their design incorporates recoil lugs for the RMR, The plate is bolted to the pistol using the DPP bores in the slide, than the RMR is secured, I assume, through the plate into the slide. They incorporate the "teeth" to bite into the front of the slide cut.

Searching through the internet I have seen reference that Sig and Trijicon reps (ie the guy at the counter) have recommended CPHWS in my application.

Sig/Trijicon need to come together develope a solid solution but I guess they are competitors with different concerns regards what optic to use.

Maybe I could be the guy that uses CPHWS and doesnt get screwed.

Im not like other guys........they would have just bought their shit and had a few thousand rounds on their guns by now.

 

[308pirate]

Good for you. Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm.

I can still move pretty quickly. Unfortunately I can't upload match videos because I refuse to host them on youtube or any other site like that.

Anyway, the fall was a trip on the fwd fault line because I moved into position way too aggressively and couldn't slow down in time. The choice was to eat gravel or let the pistol go and take the DQ. I took the DQ.

 

[308pirate]

Been following that and Im in agreement something is amiss with that company.

They do seem to have an attractive solution for mounting to my specific gun.

Their plate incorporates a small filler to ensure the optic is secure against steel fore and aft.

Because the filler also follows the contour of the optic at the filler there is also some lateral security, perhaps 1%, but the screws will be doing the heavy work if there is any side impact. They also have the "teeth" that fit into the recess at the front of the slide optic cut - a little more security.

And.....their solution includes lugs to fit into the recoil recesses on the RMR.

View attachment 7668435

View attachment 7668434

I think this is Trijicons solution for mounting on my pistol....

AC32105 | Trijicon®

Trijicon® products are known for offering legendary reliability, absolute accuracy and industry-leading technology to shooting enthusiasts, law enforcement agencies and the U.S. military and its allies.

www.trijicon.com

View attachment 7668432

The good is that Trijicon is not the shitshow CPHWS seems to be, their design incorporates recoil lugs for the RMR, The plate is bolted to the pistol using the DPP bores in the slide, than the RMR is secured, I assume, through the plate into the slide. They incorporate the "teeth" to bite into the front of the slide cut.

Searching through the internet I have seen reference that Sig and Trijicon reps (ie the guy at the counter) have recommended CPHWS in my application.

Sig/Trijicon need to come together develope a solid solution but I guess they are competitors with different concerns regards what optic to use.

Maybe I could be the guy that uses CPHWS and doesnt get screwed.

Im not like other guys........they would have just bought their shit and had a few thousand rounds on their guns by now.

I see now what we were talking about on Monday. Both the CHPWS and Trijicon plates have recoil bosses for the optic. That's the two round studs at the front edge of the plate.

My concern is that SIG did not design a recoil boss into their optic cut for the plate to engage. Depending on how tightly the plate fits fore and aft, the screws might or might not be taking on shear stresses from the plate.

Glock's MOS system makes the same mistake, with a longitudinal boss/recess but no transverse boss.

The right way (CZ Optics Ready plate system). The plates locks into the cruciform boss that takes all the shear stresses in both directions. The milled pockets are clearance for the optic's screws, which thread through the steel (not aluminum) plate.

 

[MLS2GO]

The most secure way to mount your optic on a moving slide is with a cut to the slide to fit your optic precisely, and not use a plate. Plates are handier and less expensive than getting a slide cut to fit a particular optic. Primary Machine cut my slides and wanted the optic I was using with the slide so the cut and the holes would fit perfectly. Downside is cost and being tied to one optic cut for that slide. I have used their optic cuts in a lot of USPSA Competitions and never had a sight loosen or come off. Size of dot is only one measure. Leupold DDP small dot appears as large as others larger dots because it so bright and easy to pick up. Every dot looks bright in a store, but in the light of a bright summers day it will look different. For competition if I were doing it again I would cut it for a Romeo 3 XL in 6 MOA. I have them mounted on my JP PCCs and my 10/22 I use in Steel Challenge.
In my experience the bigger the housing the easier the dot is to acquire. That is why you will see very few RMR in serious competitors hands. (Its a game) However. for concealed carry the Romeo 3 XL is probably too big as it is larger in width than most slides. The RMR is rounded and small, harder for the eye to pick up the dot but smoother to draw and easier to carry. Tradeoffs. Leupold in the middle of both.
If you are learning a dot you may find that chasing the dot up as you may do with a front sight is very hard to do and much slower. In competition at least most competitors look at what they want to hit and bring the dot up to their eyes. Here is an example.

YMMV

 

[308pirate]

The most secure way to mount your optic on a moving slide is with a cut to the slide to fit your optic precisely,

I have just over 13K rounds through a P-10F OR and have never had a single issue with the plate or the optic coming loose. Maybe tightening things properly and using threadlocker properly, along with a properly designed plate system has something to do with it.

By properly designed I mean

1. It has separate screws to hold the plate on the slide and the optic on the plate
2. It has interlocking features between the slide and the plate to take all shear forces, shielding the screws from them
3. It has the proper recoil bosses to engage the recesses (designed to transfer recoil) on the bottom of the optic
4. It's made of steel

 

[pmclaine]

I think this dude might have sold me on 6.5 MOA......

 

[lowspeed_highdrag]

We have nothing but problems with the Sig Romeo line at my agency. I'd ban them if I had the power.

I have a Holosun 509 on my P320, an RMR on my FN 509, a Holosun 507K on my 365XL, and a bunch of P320's with Holosun 507's. I'd do my best to avoid Sig optics.

 

[CK1.0]

I've been shooting dots on pistols for a few years now, probably over 50,000rds... so far there's been some good info shared in this thread, but also a bunch of not so good info...

My $0.02, YMMV:

For dot size, always go as big as you can (within reason). 5-6moa is best, ~3moa is ok, smaller than 3moa isn't great (and is best left for rifle/PDW/PCC applications).

It has nothing to do at all with the size of the dot covering up a target or not: it has everything to do with what will appear more steady vs twitchy. Larger is steadier, always, and will "'dance" less during one's trigger press and be far easier to track under recoil. A 6moa dot is still only 1.5 inches at 25 yards, but what really matters is it'll seem much easier to shoot fast and more accurately than with a smaller dot with less training required.

Brand or "name" or wealthy vs the poors matters very little in the upside-down world of pistol dots: yes, the RMR is the most robust, it's also the oldest design/worst/toughest to shoot. Affordable Holosun pistol dots are generally good, while expensive Aimpoint pistol dots are generally garbage. And they all break. Even RMR's. One's that say Trijicon on them seem to break least often. Ones that say Sig on them break more (lots more).

Not all plates/interfaces are created equal, CZ does it right, most everyone else does not, even Glock, definitely not Sig.

Lastly, be careful when praising Trijicon and the RMR for reliability and being bombproof, and then putting one on a striker-fired handgun infamous for going off by itself.

 

[pmclaine]

I've been shooting dots on pistols for a few years now, probably over 50,000rds... so far there's been some good info shared in this thread, but also a bunch of not so good info...

My $0.02, YMMV:

For dot size, always go as big as you can (within reason). 5-6moa is best, ~3moa is ok, smaller than 3moa isn't great (and is best left for rifle/PDW/PCC applications).

It has nothing to do at all with the size of the dot covering up a target or not: it has everything to do with what will appear more steady vs twitchy. Larger is steadier, always, and will "'dance" less during one's trigger press and be far easier to track under recoil. A 6moa dot is still only 1.5 inches at 25 yards, but what really matters is it'll seem much easier to shoot fast and more accurately than with a smaller dot with less training required.

Brand or "name" or wealthy vs the poors matters very little in the upside-down world of pistol dots: yes, the RMR is the most robust, it's also the oldest design/worst/toughest to shoot. Affordable Holosun pistol dots are generally good, while expensive Aimpoint pistol dots are generally garbage. And they all break. Even RMR's. One's that say Trijicon on them seem to break least often. Ones that say Sig on them break more (lots more).

Not all plates/interfaces are created equal, CZ does it right, most everyone else does not, even Glock, definitely not Sig.

Lastly, be careful when praising Trijicon and the RMR for reliability and being bombproof, and then putting one on a striker-fired handgun infamous for going off by itself.

Oh the Sig hate.....the govt is buying all sorts of Sig stuff.....they have never been wrong.

I took a gamble on the CPHWS plate. May arrive today or tomorrow.

Their solution is less a "plate" more a "weather gasket" with recoil features than any other option I have found. Everything else is significantly thicker. Maybe I will get lucky in regards to their hit/miss QC.

Messaged Suarez yesterday to try to get on the backorder list for their plain black suppressor height sites.

I have all three versions of dot size RMR in my B&H photo cart. They seem to be the best price I have found.

Will make a dot decision once I determine if the CHPWS plate is shit....if so I will include a trijicon plate in my RMR order.

Mentally trending toward the 6 MOA dot.

It seems more suited to the way I want to shoot....fast with practical accuracy.....although when I go to the range the way I shoot is slow looking for centered groups.

 

[lowspeed_highdrag]

Proceed with caution when dealing with CHPWS....

CHPWS RMR plates are JUNK and their customer service is just as bad

I purchased two of their Sig M17/M18 plates and attempted to install them today. The first issues was the rear sight which they sell and supplied and the plate is supposed to be cut for. The angle of the dovetails are significantly different. I've installed hundreds of sight sets and I fit...

www.snipershide.com