Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

S

Skyking

Skyking
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 13, 2009
745
28
Provo, Utah
www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com
#1
Well after trying to decide if I really want to do this to my new gun. After waiting 6 months for the barrel. I am going to go for it. I am always a sucker for the latest technology. After talking with a few different guys that have done it, they "LOVE IT". They are getting a lot more barrel life, faster speeds, and supper easy to clean. What's not to love?
wink.gif
Melonite ISONITE (Salt Bath Nitriding) Is a heat treat process that changes the hardness of the steel. Not a coating. Nothing to flake off.

So I called MMI-Trutec http://mmi-trutec.com/default.aspx the one that everyone recommends. Found out that they don't deal with the public anymore on a one barrel at a time thing. They don't have time to receive, process, treat, and return ship different guys barrels, or gun parts. So I asked him if this really works, or is this just snake oil. They told me they are doing all of the military barrels now. Over 15,000 a day, at the one location. Plus there are 12 major gun manufactures have the barrels done now as well. They signed non disclosure with all the companies, so could not give out any names. Also said pistol parts and barrels has really taken off. He told me a conservative number is 30% increase in barrel life. So they must be doing something right.

So if we want to have one barrel done we need to go too, Rodney at R+T customs, a in-house guy that is talking care of it all. 870-565-2589. Cost $60 per barrel with $20 return shipping cost. Turn around time is less then a week.

Going to do it to my 7saum AI. It has a stainless Schneider barrel. I did the 10 grams of Unique pistol powder under Cream-Of-Wheat with toilet paper stuffed in the neck. First time ever doing that. That was scary the first trigger pull. Worked good. I would say the brass was 90% formed. So then I loaded up 50 rounds to finish forming the brass, and break in the barrel. MMI said you want to get a few rounds down the gun. Here is the target and speeds to do a comparison once the barrel gets back. Gun was shooting good for the first time out. This was just to get a base line and try and find the upper end of the speed. Never found it. (The after report is at the bottom of the page).

M1430002.jpg


Shoot 100 yards 4 shot groups. Wind 3-5 Mph

Left target H1000, Right half Retumbo, Berger 168 Vld's +.006 jammed into the lands

H1000 63.5
Avg 2985fps
ES 52
SD 22

64g
Avg 2999
ES 27
SD 13

64.5g
Avg 3026
ES 41
SD 18

65g
Avg 3045
ES 39
SD 17

65.5g
Avg 3080
ES 26
SD 9

Retumbo
65.5g
Avg 3022
ES 23
SD 9

66g
Avg 3045
ES 9
SD 4

66.3g
Avg 3071
ES 16
SD 8

66.5g
Avg 3083
ES 7
SD 4

66.7g
Avg 3091
ES 19
SD 8

Here is a little more info about Melonite. Hope this helps any of you guys that where looking for more info like I have been.

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#3
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

I had 2 barrels done (a 22-250 and 7mm RM)and was plenty happy. You'll need to clean the crap out of it when you get it back. I shot loads for accuracy and velocity before and after as well. I basically gained 50-75 fps with the same powder charges and accuracy didn't seem to be effected either way. I'll have no worries about having another done.
 
#6
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mscott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had 2 barrels done (a 22-250 and 7mm RM)and was plenty happy. You'll need to clean the crap out of it when you get it back. I shot loads for accuracy and velocity before and after as well. I basically gained 50-75 fps with the same powder charges and accuracy didn't seem to be effected either way. I'll have no worries about having another done.</div></div>

Sweet! Its always nice to hear from guys that are happy with it.

I am just going to do the barrel, not the action.
 
#7
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

I intend to have my 260 barrels treated. I would really like to do the action (FN SPR), but FN won't give ANY info about what material their action is made from, or any kind of heat treatment data. Bummer.
 
#8
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

I did the same thing Skyking! So far so good.

Got my Schneider stainless back a month ago.It's chambered in 6x47L.Like wise in the middle of load developement.

I was worried about a few things,not having done the Nitrocarburizing before.
#1 I heard the barrel was supposed to be broke in with a few rounds to have the burrs in front of the chamber shot out/fire polished then cleaned super good to get the copper and carbon out before the Meloniting process.Instead the gunsmith polished the burrs out in front of the chamber a little by hand before he sent it out.
#2 and that I'd be unlucky and get a ho-hum accurate barrel and be stuck with it for years because the finish is so hard it can't be rechambered.

Fortunately so far the barrel is exceeding my expectations.I knew it was OK when first time out the ladder test was 2.5" at 300Y with 14 shots at 7 different powder charges,10 of them landing into 1.5" vertical!

I have a few more times out to adjust seating depth and find the lowest SD but one particular load shot .4-.5 moa at 200 and 300Y with very tight vertical.The frustartating thing is I don't have access to a cemment bench or slab to shoot off of locally and I can't hold what I think the rifle is capable of.Oh well.

At any rate I don't have to worry about repacing this barrel in less than a year like my last 2 barrels.I did a couple thngs to "hopefully" prolong barrel life besides Meloniting. I chose a slower single based powder vs the R-17 doulble based I was using before and will try taming velocity some at the same time.I figure whats a few clicks at distance? I'm sure 100FPS/.1 mil won't help me guess the wind any better anyway.

We'll have to come back and revisit this thread when our barrels burn out to see how much the Meloniting off set wear.



 
#10
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

A reminder to CHECK with the barrel manufacturer on thier stance regarding nitriding. Because these methods of protecting the part actually have the POTENTIAL to be harmful to it, some manufacturers have specific guidelines or vendors they recommend or will invalidate the warranty that might otherwise cover your action/barrel/dbm.

Remember that Melonite QPQ or "Salt bath nitriding" is actually called molten salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing - which is a form of case hardening and as such if done wrong can actually weaken the metal and/or make it brittle.
 
#13
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

Yeah seams like guys have done this but not a lot of barrels shot out yet. It will be interesting to see just how more life we get out of them.

Of course this will void any barrel warranties! Not worried about that. I would not expect any barrel make to say " Yeah go do it" I will cover any problems you may have after doing this. If you can really get 2-4 times the life out of a barrel. That is going to suck for them. They will be selling less barrels.

If I can get more speed and no loss of accuracy, I have some more 7mm,243AI and 338 barrels to try it on.
 
#14
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course this will void any barrel warranties! Not worried about that. I would not expect any barrel make to say " Yeah go do it" I will cover any problems you may have after doing this. If you can really get 2-4 times the life out of a barrel. That is going to suck for them. They will be selling less barrels.</div></div>

Find a different barrel maker!

Benchmark barrels (our friendly neighborhood barrel maker here in WA who also shoot/sponsor a lot of local matches and stuff) are regularly sending in batches of freshly chambered (and test fired) barrels out to be melonited for customers with excellent results.

A tip from chatting with them -- you want to send a barrel in with as few rounds through it is possible. Just a few to make sure the barrel is safe and appears to have accuracy potential. If too many rounds have been fired through the barrel when you send it in, there can be cracks and stuff after the melonite treatment. Benchmark also has some other little things they do to help the barrels get best results from the melonite treatment.

 
#15
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

To add on to what Matt talks about, above, also ask some questions up front of both the part manufacturer and the center you are interested in doing the nitriding with.

Do they have a recommendation on timeframe and/or temperature for thier parts? One of the critical steps in nitriding, I have learned over the last year, is the exact amount of time that a batch is allowed to stay in the process.

A difference of a few seconds generally will not matter however if the batch is controlled in a granularity of minutes, that can have an effect on the part in question.

One name comes up time and time again as the authoritative source for firearms nitriding: MMi - Trutec for salt bath nitriding. They may be a good place to start if you have a pretty good idea of what you want to do.
 
#22
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

+1 on updates. Anyone know if you can do a barrel blank?

I'm having a build done and would love to have it done but I don't want to wait for him to chamber then send to "treat", then ship it back.

Another stated that he got 50-75fps? Anyone else get this? I mean on a 18.5" barrel, gaining 50-75fps would be equal to having a 22" barrel. Seems like this is a "magic" treatment.

I'm skeptical to say the least but I'm hoping this is legite.
 
#23
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: k9222</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on updates. Anyone know if you can do a barrel blank?

I'm having a build done and would love to have it done but I don't want to wait for him to chamber then send to "treat", then ship it back.

Another stated that he got 50-75fps? Anyone else get this? I mean on a 18.5" barrel, gaining 50-75fps would be equal to having a 22" barrel. Seems like this is a "magic" treatment.

I'm skeptical to say the least but I'm hoping this is legite. </div></div>

No, you can't chamber/thread after treatment.
 
#25
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

you'll like it, I have a 243 AI with 715 rds through, 300 fireforming loads the rest full power. the throat move only 4 thousands!!! after all that including a few Fclass matches. cleans like a breeze because it barelly fouls. All my barrels will be melonited from now on.
hope this helps
 
#29
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

Good to hear Skyking.

I was curious to see how much R-17 powder it would take to achieve the same velocity as the previous barrel since the barrels are identical except for the meloniting.The old was 39 grains.It only took 38.5 grains to reach 3070 fps.
 
#31
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

wouldn't it raise the pressure? because you're hardening the barrel, so less expansion of the barrel, so all that pressure build up due to less expansion is going back to the brass

just a thought

I was gonna have it done, but I decided against it... I don't shoot too much to begin with, and I don't think I'd benefit from it, I doubt I'll ever wear out my barrel, so I don't really need a longer barrel life... extra 50-70 fps sounds nice though... oh well I might also thread the barrel in the future...
 
#32
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you'll like it, I have a 243 AI with 715 rds through, 300 fireforming loads the rest full power. the throat move only 4 thousands!!! after all that including a few Fclass matches. cleans like a breeze because it barelly fouls. All my barrels will be melonited from now on.
hope this helps</div></div>

That's awesome for only .004 off your throat on 715 rounds. I know for a fact that I get .003 thou of throat erosion per 100 rounds out of my 6.5-284 which is why I'm considering having the Melonite treatment done. I only have 25 rounds down a new tube and will be sending it off based on the results of Skyking.
 
#33
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

I have done this on the last few barrels that I have made. Here are some examples of my results. All were good!!

- (2) FN SPR builds with Krieger barrels. Test fired with Corbon Factory Performance Match ammo. Both rifles shot in the .2's and .3's. I sent the barrels to get Melonited, they came back..looked great, I had to do some external machining, they cleaned up fine. I sent them back to get treated again (second time) and got them back. I test fired them with the same ammo and what not. Both shot the same as before they were sent off.

- I did some Krieger .264 LBC AR builds. I wanted to get one test fired and ready to shoot but I wanted it Melonited. I cleaned the barrel, and I did not put one round through the barrel. I sent it off to MMI, they Melonited the barrel, I got it back, assembled the upper and with 29 Gr of AA2520 this barrel is easily a 1/2 MOA rifle. I was pretty impressed!!!

So with my limited experience, I think it is a good idea. I will probably start doing this to my DTA barrels in order to make them more cost effective for customers. It hurts when you buy a $1500 barrel and its shot out in 1600 rounds.

Mark
 
#34
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

Is there any hard evidence that Meloniting will actually prolong the effective barrel life? Has anyone ever taken say, a batch of six barrels, sent three in for Meloniting, three for control, and then proceeded to shoot each out until accuracy degraded beyond a preset limit?
 
#35
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arbiter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there any hard evidence that Meloniting will actually prolong the effective barrel life? Has anyone ever taken say, a batch of six barrels, sent three in for Meloniting, three for control, and then proceeded to shoot each out until accuracy degraded beyond a preset limit? </div></div>

No, but if you want to fund this testing, and pay me $60/hour (I have an MSME, a PE, and am a test engineer) to do a design of experiment and conduct the testing, I'd love to!

Lets see... Seems to me like we'd also need to do testing to learn if the barrel life increase is linear in regard to non-melonite life. So, we should add at least 2 more sets of 6 barrels to the fray. How about a known barrel burner like 6.5-284, a moderate cartridge like 284, and one known for lots of life like the 308? 18 barrels, average life of 5k rounds, average ammo price $1/round... Only $90k in ammo!
 
#36
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

Quick update. Got the barrel in today. Looks great. Kind of has the anodize look to it. I never blasted it before sending it out. Just raw steel. I can tell the outside already has a smoother feel to it. That may have to do with something else they did to it. Hoping to get it back together, and coated by Saturday. Then I can shoot those same loads sometime next week.
 
#38
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

The companies that do Nitriding/Melonite do run test on sample parts to ensure that the process is doing what it is suppose to. Im glad to hear that people enjoy the process and i would like to know the results of processed barrel once you get a chance to put it to the challenge, i have heard some very good things about the process.
 
#39
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Well it's done! I think it turned out SWEET!! The barrel really looked nice. I could not be happier.

Thanks to George at Precision Shooting Sports. On Friday I went over there and we blasted the barrel, action with 120 Aluminum oxide for the Cerakote. I got the gun back together on Saturday, and bedded the action that night. It took a lot of cleaning to get what looks like black carbon out of the bore once I got it put together. I would say 20-30 patches to get it clean. I think it is very important to make sure you put 20-50 rounds down the gun before you send it off. I noticed the barrel stopped showing copper around 15 rounds. That way you can make sure you have a good shooing barrel before you start.

So Monday mourning i went and shoot the 50 rounds that I had loaded. I tried to do everything the exactly the same as last time. New Brass that was Cream-of-Wheat fire formed. They came out about 90% fire formed. Now remember I do not have any dies for this AI round yet. They should be here sometime this week. So I just used a RCBS 7SAUM die to try and at least neck size down to the shoulder. Same lot bullets, primers, power and brass. Same time of day. Also measured how far to set the chronograph Needless to say I am very happy how it is shooting. Big props to AJ at Bighorn Action.

These are all 5 shot groups. The 64g H1000 far right are the first 5 shoots out of the gun. Top left are the next ones. I just worked my way down. R stands for Retumbo. Retumbo really seemed to tighten things up. Could also be the barrel was settling down. Once my dies get here and can do some load development this thing should rock. The 65.5 group of Retumbo had wanting to stop right there. I never did cleaned the gun during this whole test. So it looks like I got a Avg increase of 43 Fps

Before..............After
H64....Avg 2985.....H64... Avg 3060
H64.5. Avg 3026.....H64.5. Avg 3079
H65....Avg 3045.....H65....Avg 3111
H65.5..Avg 3080.....H65.5..Avg 3117
....................H66....Avg 3146
R65.5..Avg 3022.....R65.5..Avg 3065
R66....Avg 3045.....R66....Avg 3078
R66.3..Avg 3071.....R66.3..Avg 3096
R66.5..Avg 3083.....R66.5..Avg 3122
R66.7..Avg 3091.....R66.7..Avg 3125

A few of these rounds had flat primers. I think this is more do to whether the fire forming with the cream-of-wheat worked better on some cases then others. Never did have a sticky bolt lift. I love that action. Have I said that before!!



M1450003.jpg


Here is what the bore locked like after 50 rounds. Top row was just carbon cleaner. Bottom row was copper cleaner. As you can see. No Copper.
M1450005.jpg

Avg 4 shoot groups with suppressor
2012-03-23182040.jpg

2012-03-23182229.jpg

Left to right. 7wsm, 7saum AI, 7saum
M1420011.jpg

M1440014.jpg

M1440007.jpg

M1440016.jpg

M1440012.jpg


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB0jji9frPw&list=UUxKugTtIZr-RG5vdX0XaS0w
 
Last edited:
#40
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Wow, that sounds pretty good. 43Fps average is awesome. I mean, if that is pretty typical this could really help the .308 crowd with better ballistics from the shorter barrels that are so popular. I'm doing an 18.5" build now and if I could gain 40-60 fps, that would match a 22" barrel in ballistics.

I bet the magnum guys will like this. If it really helps extend the life, this seems like it could be a game changer for the shooting industry.

I'm glad your results turned out so well.
 
#46
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Pretty much mirrors my experience on cleaning with TM solution for carbon followed by Butches bore shine.Hardly any kind of fouling.I have just under 300 rounds down the barrel now.

Those are some good groups! Sweet rifle too.
 
#47
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FPO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How many rounds is "too many" to send in a barrel with?</div></div>

I don't know if there is a right answer to how many rounds. I think just after the barrel is broke in, and that it is a good shooting barrel.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goatphius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you considered firing HbN or Moly coated bullets with the melonite coated barrel?

</div></div>

No. I really don't want to have to miss with any of that stuff. I already am doing a AI that I have to fire form, don't want any more brain damage.

Hoping the dies show up this week then we can really see how this thing is going to shoot.
 
#49
Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (Going for it)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: taseal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wouldn't it raise the pressure? because you're hardening the barrel, so less expansion of the barrel, so all that pressure build up due to less expansion is going back to the brass

just a thought

I was gonna have it done, but I decided against it... I don't shoot too much to begin with, and I don't think I'd benefit from it, I doubt I'll ever wear out my barrel, so I don't really need a longer barrel life... extra 50-70 fps sounds nice though... oh well I might also thread the barrel in the future... </div></div>
I like your question, in fact those reporting high Vel. I am wondering if that if from the same load? Those working with moly know, with same load Vel drops, you can work up a higher Vel, but with no other changes Vel drops. What is causing the higher Vel?
 
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