Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

[Skyking]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I like your question, in fact those reporting high Vel. I am wondering if that if from the same load? Those working with moly know, with same load Vel drops, you can work up a higher Vel, but with no other changes Vel drops. What is causing the higher Vel?</div></div>

Yes got the vel increase on the same load. Read over the last target post again. I got an avg a 43fps increase.

 

[tywoo]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I cant see there being a problem with any amount of round put down a barrel.

 

[pawprint]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

If you are getting a higher vel, with same load, then you must be increaing the pressure somewhere. Moly bullet result in LOWER vel, with same load, as compared to those without Moly. 43 fps isn't much, but with a high pressure round, hot day, max loads etc....
I hope all doing this, re-work their loads, to be on the safe side. Is there any data on throat wear-round count etc. as to cost effectiveness?

 

[steve123]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I like your question, in fact those reporting high Vel. I am wondering if that if from the same load? Those working with moly know, with same load Vel drops, you can work up a higher Vel, but with no other changes Vel drops. What is causing the higher Vel?</div></div>

Yes got the vel increase on the same load. Read over the last target post again. I got an avg a 43fps increase. </div></div>


Hey,good news guys.

.001 throat wear after just over 300 rounds.I measured 4 times and the digital calipers read only half a thou for two of the measurements.

I'll let the engineers figure out why there's more velocity with a melonited barrel but I assure you there is.I assume it's because there's less resistance because hardly any copper transfers onto the inside of the barrel.Less resistance means less heat as well.

My first 28" barrel at 38.7 grains R-17 for 3070 fps.2cnd 26" at 39 grains.This one at 38.5/26".

 

[Sendero_Man]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Got this 6.5-284 Model 70 with a melonited Rock barrel...

think this caliber will benefit from the melonite treatment for sure

get loads worked up and post some results. Should be a great mtn rifle for hunting and light weight Mule deer getter !

 

[scotharr]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I've done a bunch of barrels and have been very pleased. Virtually no copper fouling. I'll have to agree with Paw Print. You should be seeing less velocity with the same loads: not more. The barrel is harder which makes it effectively smoother as evidenced by less copper fouling. A more slippery barrel will decrease pressure/velocity, because the bullet can scoot down the barrel sooner before pressures rise. This same principle is in effect when you jam a bullet. Jamming a bullet creates more initial friction and allows pressures to build before the bullet moves. This causes higher pressure and velocity. Likewise, jumping the bullet allows it to begin moving earlier reducing pressure a bit and velocity.

People shooting moly get lower velocities with the same load: not higher. They can ultimately get higher velocities, but this is done by adding more powder to the load. In short, both moly and melonite should allow you to use greater powder changes at safe pressure levels. This is where the extra velocity comes from...in theory.

 

[Skyking]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done a bunch of barrels and have been very pleased. Virtually no copper fouling. I'll have to agree with Paw Print. You should be seeing less velocity with the same loads: not more. The barrel is harder which makes it effectively smoother as evidenced by less copper fouling. A more slippery barrel will decrease pressure/velocity, because the bullet can scoot down the barrel sooner before pressures rise. This same principle is in effect when you jam a bullet. Jamming a bullet creates more initial friction and allows pressures to build before the bullet moves. This causes higher pressure and velocity. Likewise, jumping the bullet allows it to begin moving earlier reducing pressure a bit and velocity.

People shooting moly get lower velocities with the same load: not higher. They can ultimately get higher velocities, but this is done by adding more powder to the load. In short, both moly and melonite should allow you to use greater powder changes at safe pressure levels. This is where the extra velocity comes from...in theory.

</div></div>


Sorry I don't have any updates for you guys. STILL WAITING ON THE DIES. Two weeks turned into a month. Said he MAY get around to it this week. This gun industry kills me with there wait times, and missed deadlines, and lies. I already had to wait 6 months for a barrel that was suppose to be here in four weeks. That's a whole other topic.

Hey i don't know the science behind how you can get faster speeds with the same load, but the prof is in the results. And its not just me.

I look at it in a different way. Yes.. the barrel with melonite is a smoother barrel. So less drag on the bullet. Less drag less heat. Yes... jamming the bullet into the lands is going to build more pressure behind the bullet before it heads down the barrel. This can give us pressure signs. Yes..jumping the bullet allows it to begin moving earlier reducing pressure a bit. I think weather your barrel is stock,melonited, or you shoot moly, you are always going to see this. You will just see higher speeds all across the board. So where does the higher speeds come from?

Sorry, I am not good at putting thoughts to words. I like to compare it to a top fuel dragster. They have 8000 horsepower moving them down the track. Lets just say every time they run they have that same 8000 HP. No tuning, or clutch stuff. Same HP every time. We now have our gun with the same load of power. 65g of H1000. Let's say 100 horsepower is what our load equals. Now take that race car at sea level. At sea level that 8000 HP is being used up as heat out the exhaust, friction from the tires to the ground, and drag on the car from the air. So over the quarter mile our time will be... say 4 sec. Now our gun load of 100 HP is being used up to expand the brass into the chamber, and from friction with the bullet against the barrel. Some of this friction is turned into heat. I don't think that drag, from the air density in the barrel has any affect on the bullet. Now we run the race car at 6000 feet elevation. All thing being equal. That same 8000 HP is still being used up as heat out the exhaust, friction from the tires to the ground, and drag from the air. Only now the drag from the air is less. With less drag on the car our times are faster....Say 3 sec now. The only thing we changed is less drag due to less resistance for the air. It still has to run the same length of track. So now our melonited barrel still has the same 100 Hp load being used up to expand the brass into the chamber, and from friction with the bullet against the barrel. Now the friction has been reduced between the bullet and the barrel. Less drag...equals less heat. So now more of that HP can push the bullet faster down the barrel. Still the same length of barrel.

That is the way that I look at it. Hope that kind of made sense.

 

[.17Sniper]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Any change of having this done with a Christensen Arms carbon fiber barrel? I'd kill for an extra bit of barrel life on my 6.5 Norma.

 

[RWSGunsmithing]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .17Sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any change of having this done with a Christensen Arms carbon fiber barrel? I'd kill for an extra bit of barrel life on my 6.5 Norma. </div></div>

The only way this will happen is if Christensen sent the barrel in after all the machineing is done but before they apply the carbon fiber.

 

[pawprint]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've done a bunch of barrels and have been very pleased. Virtually no copper fouling. I'll have to agree with Paw Print. You should be seeing less velocity with the same loads: not more. The barrel is harder which makes it effectively smoother as evidenced by less copper fouling. A more slippery barrel will decrease pressure/velocity, because the bullet can scoot down the barrel sooner before pressures rise. This same principle is in effect when you jam a bullet. Jamming a bullet creates more initial friction and allows pressures to build before the bullet moves. This causes higher pressure and velocity. Likewise, jumping the bullet allows it to begin moving earlier reducing pressure a bit and velocity.

People shooting moly get lower velocities with the same load: not higher. They can ultimately get higher velocities, but this is done by adding more powder to the load. In short, both moly and melonite should allow you to use greater powder changes at safe pressure levels. This is where the extra velocity comes from...in theory.

</div></div>


Sorry I don't have any updates for you guys. STILL WAITING ON THE DIES. Two weeks turned into a month. Said he MAY get around to it this week. This gun industry kills me with there wait times, and missed deadlines, and lies. I already had to wait 6 months for a barrel that was suppose to be here in four weeks. That's a whole other topic.

Hey i don't know the science behind how you can get faster speeds with the same load, but the prof is in the results. And its not just me.

I look at it in a different way. Yes.. the barrel with melonite is a smoother barrel. So less drag on the bullet. Less drag less heat. Yes... jamming the bullet into the lands is going to build more pressure behind the bullet before it heads down the barrel. This can give us pressure signs. Yes..jumping the bullet allows it to begin moving earlier reducing pressure a bit. I think weather your barrel is stock,melonited, or you shoot moly, you are always going to see this. You will just see higher speeds all across the board. So where does the higher speeds come from?

Sorry, I am not good at putting thoughts to words. I like to compare it to a top fuel dragster. They have 8000 horsepower moving them down the track. Lets just say every time they run they have that same 8000 HP. No tuning, or clutch stuff. Same HP every time. We now have our gun with the same load of power. 65g of H1000. Let's say 100 horsepower is what our load equals. Now take that race car at sea level. At sea level that 8000 HP is being used up as heat out the exhaust, friction from the tires to the ground, and drag on the car from the air. So over the quarter mile our time will be... say 4 sec. Now our gun load of 100 HP is being used up to expand the brass into the chamber, and from friction with the bullet against the barrel. Some of this friction is turned into heat. I don't think that drag, from the air density in the barrel has any affect on the bullet. Now we run the race car at 6000 feet elevation. All thing being equal. That same 8000 HP is still being used up as heat out the exhaust, friction from the tires to the ground, and drag from the air. Only now the drag from the air is less. With less drag on the car our times are faster....Say 3 sec now. The only thing we changed is less drag due to less resistance for the air. It still has to run the same length of track. So now our melonited barrel still has the same 100 Hp load being used up to expand the brass into the chamber, and from friction with the bullet against the barrel. Now the friction has been reduced between the bullet and the barrel. Less drag...equals less heat. So now more of that HP can push the bullet faster down the barrel. Still the same length of barrel.

That is the way that I look at it. Hope that kind of made sense.

Does not make sense to me, how about some pressure gun testing? I believe the faster the bullet would go down the tube (in your example)the faster the volume would increase, and the faster the pressure would decrease, thus just like with moly bullets, the slower they would leave the muzzle, with the same load. To put an end to the question, real pressure testing should be done. Port pressure-critical on many gas guns-may not have enough pressure with a given load to operate the system, if the pressure drops beyond spec. On the other hand, you're getting Higher Vel, thus I believe you have getting higher pressure. Again, pressure gun testing would answer the question once and for all (transducer types).
</div></div>

 

[pawprint]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

It is strange that you would be getting Higher Vel. after the treatment, as others are in fact getting LOWER Vel. Here is an short Article:
Melonite Surface Treatment for Barrels, Bolts, and Actions

Ace trigger-puller Joel Kendrick, a former IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year, has been working on a MELONITE® nitrocarburizing process for surface-hardening barrels and other gun parts. The main advantage of Melonite barrel treatment is that it reduces friction in the bore and lessens bore surface wear, potentially extending barrel life. Melonite-treatment of a bore creates a new compound layer in the top 10-20 microns of the surface, creating a very hard, slick surface. Joel has found that this surface is so slick that carbon does not easily adhere, so the barrel is easier to keep clean. Real-world tests have shown that Melonite barrel treatment definitely reduces internal barrel friction. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Joel notes that, after processing, barrels deliver 50 to 100 fps LESS velocity with the same load, a reliable indicator of </span>reduced friction. (Likewise, you’ll get less velocity when switching from naked to moly-coated bullets.) Butch Lambert has tried some Melonite-treated barrels, and he reports: “I have had Joel Kendrick do three barrels for me in Melonite. I polished them first and the finish is like a deep polished black-bluing. One Krieger has 5000 rounds on it and it is shooting just as well as when new. It has been an incredible barrel. It has no throat erosion. It has developed a bunch of pinprick looking spots in the throat, but doesn’t seem to hurt anything. The finish is so hard you can’t thread it. I have not put one of the LV barrels on yet and the heavy is a great shooter and doesn’t have many rounds on it. My experience has been great, but a more extensive test is needed.”

 

[QuiggyB]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

For cartridges where the barrel wears out in the throat area from the high heat blast of gas - like a 6.5x284 - and not so much from the bullet zipping down the barrel, would this kind of thing be a good idea? Even more so if you were to add powder to get back the lost velocity - seems like more potential for throat erosion. Also have to consider the barrel could not be set back and re-chambered.

I'm looking at this more from the point of view of what might be a good idea to do to a fclass barrel.

 

[pawprint]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I think most barrels wear from the throat, but I don't see how this treatment is going to stop barrel wear in the throat. Are they claiming that Melonite has that big an effect on throat wear? It would be like claiming your cutting torch couldn't touch a Glock slide because of the treatment! The plasma cutting effect at the throat is many times more damaging than your torch. The effect on overall wear is where you'll "make money", however; I've heard from several different sources, there are a number of people doing this treatment, some a far better than others, and if they "F*&^^* it up" you're stuck. It is not a wonder cure that doubles your barrel's life, but if done right, it could be a real plus on all kinds of parts.

 

[beretta989]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Pretty sure my 7Saum is getting this.

 

[steve123]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I like your question, in fact those reporting high Vel. I am wondering if that if from the same load? Those working with moly know, with same load Vel drops, you can work up a higher Vel, but with no other changes Vel drops. What is causing the higher Vel?</div></div>

Yes got the vel increase on the same load. Read over the last target post again. I got an avg a 43fps increase. </div></div>


Hey,good news guys.

.001 throat wear after just over 300 rounds.I measured 4 times and the digital calipers read only half a thou for two of the measurements.

I'll let the engineers figure out why there's more velocity with a melonited barrel but I assure you there is.I assume it's because there's less resistance because hardly any copper transfers onto the inside of the barrel.Less resistance means less heat as well.

My first 28" barrel at 38.7 grains R-17 for 3070 fps.2cnd 26" at 39 grains.This one at 38.5/26". </div></div>

Almost 600 rounds down the tube now. Same measurement on the throat. .001 is the reading I'm getting. I cleaned the barrel just before I measured. It took a dozen patches including a few dry patches.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I have 755 rds of 243 AI down my tube, 300 fireforming loads and mostly 115 VLD's at 3000 and 95 SMK at 3250, the throat moved .004, Told my barrel maker and he was disapointed because "that is bad for business" he said laughing.
this barrel shoots 1/2 min all day.

 

[teufelhunden]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I have (2) custom M14 builds that are currently being built at the gunsmith. Both rifles are getting the Melonite barrel treatment done as we speak.

Im glad to hear all the great results, looking forward to seeing it firsthand.

 

[Goot]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

tag

 

[Skyking]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Sending in a barrel to MMI this week to have it done. 243AI. I will post results once it is back together.

Also here is some more info on the process.

https://sites.google.com/site/freeballisticcalculator/black-nitride-melonite-and-qpq

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Any new updates from anyone?

 

[steve123]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paw print</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I like your question, in fact those reporting high Vel. I am wondering if that if from the same load? Those working with moly know, with same load Vel drops, you can work up a higher Vel, but with no other changes Vel drops. What is causing the higher Vel?</div></div>

Yes got the vel increase on the same load. Read over the last target post again. I got an avg a 43fps increase. </div></div>


Hey,good news guys.

.001 throat wear after just over 300 rounds.I measured 4 times and the digital calipers read only half a thou for two of the measurements.

I'll let the engineers figure out why there's more velocity with a melonited barrel but I assure you there is.I assume it's because there's less resistance because hardly any copper transfers onto the inside of the barrel.Less resistance means less heat as well.

My first 28" barrel at 38.7 grains R-17 for 3070 fps.2cnd 26" at 39 grains.This one at 38.5/26". </div></div>

Almost 600 rounds down the tube now. Same measurement on the throat. .001 is the reading I'm getting. I cleaned the barrel just before I measured. It took a dozen patches including a few dry patches. </div></div>

In the neighborhood of 950 down the tube now. Finally got some movement on the throat. .004 erosion.

How's yours doing Skyking?

 

[Skyking]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

That good to hear Steve123

I had some custom dies built for my 7saum. Well waited 4 months and when I got them they would not resize the brass. Well the guy used the chamber reamer to make the dies. So now I had to order new dies form Neil Jones. Have a 2 month wait with him. What a pain, and a joke. We did however get my brothers 243ai barrel back from MMI-Trutek. It turned out nice and is shooting good. Only have two rounds down it so far. Will keep you posted.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

The decreased friction is one thing that melonite will do.

The other is adding some material to the bore- IE closing the bore slightly.

That will increase pressure.

I've always heard of velocity drops and that never made any sense on account of the material thickness Melonite adds (.0004" a side with melonite, or as much as .001" a side with melonite QPQ).

Now hearing of velocity increases, while that makes sense, results on both sides of the spectrum still make no sense and sound like a technique that is far from perfected.

Heat treaters love to throw things in ovens. What they don't like to do is tell you what will happen when they come out. Their work is half art, and half science.

I would rather it were 100% scientific.

 

[Ring]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Melonite adds (.0004" a side with melonite, or as much as .001" a side with melonite QPQ).</div></div>

err what?.. QCP adds zero to the thickness..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53V_9iVm1Ig

 

[mikeylikesit]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Tag

 

[Downzero]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Is this essentially the same "coating" that a HSS drill bit has?

 

[turbo54]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this essentially the same "coating" that a HSS drill bit has? </div></div>

No. This is a heat treatment, not a coating. I realize you wrote "coating", but it's important to realize the melonite/salt bath nitride/ferritic nitro-carburizing is a heat treatment. It allows nitrogen to diffuse into the steel. The temperature and length of time dictates how deep the nitrogen goes, and how densely packed those atoms are - which affects hardness. This is why the process creates a hard surface. Think of it as a case-hardening process.

The coating typically found on twist drills, which appears Gold, is Titanium Nitride - or TiN for short, which is a Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) coating.

Metallurgy and its associated nomenclature is confusing - I hope this helps.

 

[steve123]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That good to hear Steve123

I had some custom dies built for my 7saum. Well waited 4 months and when I got them they would not resize the brass. Well the guy used the chamber reamer to make the dies. So now I had to order new dies form Neil Jones. Have a 2 month wait with him. What a pain, and a joke. We did however get my brothers 243ai barrel back from MMI-Trutek. It turned out nice and is shooting good. Only have two rounds down it so far. Will keep you posted. </div></div>

Sorry about the late reply and sorry about the die maker screw up. What a hassle!

My rifle is shooting some great groups as of recent with 1100 through the barrel. Like when a barrel without Melonite gets seasoned in at 200 rounds.

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

What i noticed with this treatment was that, once you started to see throat errosion, it wears exponentially quicker. At first i made it 500 or so rounds and only saw about .005" wear. Then within the next hundred rounds or so it went to .055" then .120". My accuracy was fine but i had to chase the lands to keep my dope. At 900 rounds i could hold a 3/8 moa average and then by 950 it was toast. This was on a 6.5 WSM that was used in competition and hunting pretty heavily. I am skeptical about the 5,000 round results. Unless the cartridge would get 3,500-4,000 non treated. If you think about it, if the treatment only penetrates the steel .0002", by the time you get .001" throat wear you will have already worn off the treatment in the throat area. So it probably only bought you a few hundred extra rounds. In the bore scope on a 7 WSM that was kept cool between shots and cleaned regularly, after 400 rounds there was almost no fire cracking. It seems to me, if i want to make my barrel last, i will keep it cool between shots and clean it often. I haven't been completely sold on the Melonite yet. I am going with an untreated 270 WSM. After i shoot it out i may try a treated barrel to compare the difference.

I have been told of 7 WSM's, using our standard load, getting thrashed at competition after competition and heavy plinking to last only 900 rounds. With that same cartridge, and keeping it clean, guys have gotten 2,000 rounds. Both untreated. Like i said i am skeptical of the Melonite. How would you measure 30% better barrel life with Melonite when between these two untreated rifles one got 100% better barrel life?

When i was thinking of selecting the 6.5 WSM cartridge the research i did suggested it would go 500-900 rounds of barrel life. My treated barrel lasted 950. I did everything right in the prepping process for Melonite too. If you think about it, the guy in Arizona sitting in 120F weather on a prarie dog town shooting shot after shot toasted his barrel in 500 rounds. The guy in a cooler climate shooting and cleaning often gets 900 rounds. Thats a huge difference. I think it deserves more testing.

 

[turbo54]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Good post Jesse. There are far too many variables to be able to make such concrete claims as "30% longer barrel life". It's a tough thing to quantify, because even two "identical" rifles will act different. Lots and lots of empirical data is required to make a statistically significant claim, and Melonite simply hasn't been used enough yet to substantiate. Time will tell of course but in the meantime, consider what a 10,000°F and 60,000psi environment might be like, and ask yourself if it seems possible a heat treatment could cause an otherwise unworthy material to simply "handle" that.....

 

[RemingtonSPS]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I think keeping the barrel cool and clean will do more for barrel life than anything else.

Think about heat transfer. Even though the extreme temperature of a round being fired down the bore is present for a fraction of a second, shot after shot is going to transfer more and more heat. That heat causes fire cracking and throat errosion. Add to that if a guy isn't cleaning the Carbon out of his bore, shot after shot is going to cause wear. Carbon is nasty, gritty, corrosive stuff. Who would pour sand down their bore and then shoot? If you have a bunch of Carbon in the barrel, and keep shooting in fast succession, you are going to wear out the barrel faster. I don't think copper is as big of a deal. I personnaly feel that cleaning out Carbon and giving the barrel time to cool when practicing (there's nothing you can do about it in a competition) is going to do more for barrel life than having it Melonited.

 

[Downzero]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this essentially the same "coating" that a HSS drill bit has? </div></div>

No. This is a heat treatment, not a coating. I realize you wrote "coating", but it's important to realize the melonite/salt bath nitride/ferritic nitro-carburizing is a heat treatment. It allows nitrogen to diffuse into the steel. The temperature and length of time dictates how deep the nitrogen goes, and how densely packed those atoms are - which affects hardness. This is why the process creates a hard surface. Think of it as a case-hardening process.

The coating typically found on twist drills, which appears Gold, is Titanium Nitride - or TiN for short, which is a Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) coating.

Metallurgy and its associated nomenclature is confusing - I hope this helps. </div></div>

I really hope you didn't try to give me a lecture on "metallurgy" while being unaware of the difference between a TiN and high speed steel drill bit.

If anyone knows the answer to my question, I'm still interested.

For the record, this is what a HSS drill bit looks like:

I suspect the finish is different, but the finish on this style of drill bit is actually quite durable.

A lot of firearm finishes get caught up in brand names, smoke, and mirrors, but the fact of the matter is that there aren't any new ways to coat steel. Finish types are basically paint, some sort of chemical process like the one that this thread is about (of which bluing and parkerizing are types of chemical finishes as well), or some sort of electrically-applied finish like hard chrome.

Chemical bonds can only be created in so many ways, so there's nothing remarkable about the processes, other than new ways to assure they look decent and perhaps the amount of energy necessary to chemically alter the metal.

The finish that is the topic of this thread is most interesting to me, because I suspect it could be done at home with the proper tools.

 

[turbo54]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Drills (and nothing else for that matter) are not made of TiN. TiN is a PVD coating, not a material things are made of. I am well aware of what high speed steel is...

...and that if its coated, it is most commonly coated in TiN.

The answer to your previous question is a resounding "no".

Thanks

 

[Downzero]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Drills (and nothing else for that matter) are not made of TiN. TiN is a PVD coating, not a material things are made of. I am well aware of what high speed steel is...

...and that if its coated, it is most commonly coated in TiN.

The answer to your previous question is a resounding "no".

Thanks </div></div>

Sorry, I edited my post, but we're talking past each other, because I am not talking about a TiN drill bit, regardless of how TiN is applied.

 

[josephberry]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Tag

 

[Ring]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

the review i did in the link in my sig..



Black Nitride, Melonite, SBN and QPQ
Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US".

How is it done?... this is a video from the History channel.
YouTube Video


I first heard abut this a few years ago from this video

YouTube Video


Who uses this?
DS Arms (most ZM4 models and ZM4 uppers)
LWRC
POF-USA
S&W M&P15
CMMG - LE Series with WASP treatment
AAC
Adams Arms (uppers)
Huldra Arms (rifles and uppers with chrome-moly barrels {not stainless})
Bushmaster ACR
Spikes Tactical
Beretta
KRISS
Robinson arms
Sig - 550-556
Superior Barrels with "hard blue" (uppers and barrels) {http://www.superiorbarrels.com/}
and many more...


What will it do? ... What can you do it to?
Any Ferris steel, Carbon Steel, Alloy, Stainless Steel can all be treated. Typical Hardness ranges from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on Stainless steel.


Per LWRC,
"These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4."

Per CMMG,
"Nitriding offers improved wear, abrasion, and corrosion resistance when compared to hard chrome lining or phosphating. The benefits are not limited to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction. Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues."

Per Superior Barrels
http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm
Salt Spray Test Report: 14 days under a salt spray. See the results for yourself.
Clorox Test: 35 days in pure Clorox. Who in his right mind would do this?
SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue.
Barrel #22 Professional Bore Scope Evaluation at 2191 and 5000 rounds, & shooting/cleaning schedule to 5000 rounds.
Corrosion Testing. Barrel blank stubs, both Hard Blue treated and untreated.
Full auto 1000-round Comparison Test: Professional bore scope evaluation.
Black Powder Barrel Corrosion Testing, on going.
Real World Salt Corrosion Test, completed July 12, 2008.
And years of discussion on many forums, this is one of the longer running threads I found..
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html


Sounds good to me, any down side?
Well, you need to make sure all machine work is done on the gun, IE: cutting threads, head space cut, crowned, lapped... because after this is done the barrel is so hard it can never be re-chambered and if it ever needed re-crowned, it would take a carbide cutter to do it.
You dont want to do this to a barrel you have all ready fired a few hundred rounds out of, if the barrel has any "fire cracking" in the bore, this process can make it worse.
And most importantly, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not just "machined parts".

What do you need to do to your gun before you send it in?
If is a new unfired barrel, it is best to break it in "30 to 60 rounds"
At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done.
Clean it GOOD... use a good copper remover like KG12 "the best"
http://www.eabco.com/KG12Test.pdf
If sending a action, bolt, or hand gun, EVERY spring needs removed, the heat will destroy the springs, sights should be removed as well


So i emailed MMI and got this back
On 03/09/2011
quote:
Mike Wooldridge to me
We at Trutec are no longer doing individual orders. [email protected] has taken over that account. His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. will not process actions.I think he can get them out 2-3 days. They will still ship for now to the mmi trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar. 72450

Please contact him for details

I first sent in a 243wssm AR barrel in to MMI, it was a a fast turn around and cost 100$ and this was what i got back.



The finish is vary flat, and has a minor finish flaw near the end of the barrel "pic above", click on, and look at the bottom tip of the barrel, you can see what looks like a "water spot", a white mark that goes around the bottom 1/2 of the barrel.

After talking to some others, I found a place local to me..
http://blacknitride.com/

I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. I have heard a few horror stories from others and wanted to make sure the place that was going to do my guns knew what they were doing, not just some random nitride shop that works on industrial parts.

Some of the things I found doing the research..
H&M was started in 1948 and has been family owned since, The do work for the large car companies, GE , NASCAR and a bunch of others listed on their page.
But more importantly, they do work for S&W, LWRC, AAC, Spike's, Beretta, KRISS. Robinson arms and many many more... they know guns.. And that's whats important.
They have a onsite firearms consultant, metallurgist, full test lab and salt spray chambers.


I asked them if they knew of MMI, the answer was
"Ya, sure, we built it and owned it till we sold it to TruTec" http://www.trutecind.com/contact_us.aspx
So i asked if they do the same process.
" The nitride is the same the prep work is different. We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride."

I was talking about this with Chris Cerino from TopShot season 1 and he told me he had just had some work done by H&M and he was heading down to pick his stuff up, so I drove down to drop off my guns and met up with Chris and Iain Harrison the season 1 winner from top shot. The General Manager took us on full tour of the plant while the three of us were there.

We saw PALLETS of S&W AR barrels, and M&P slides, LWRC, AAC, Spikes Tactical, Beretta, KRISS, Robinson arms, and about a dozen other custom rifles and pistols makers getting processed..

At the production level for manufactures, having this done is 1/2 the cost of chrome + phosphate..

H&M has a full test lab for microscopic analyses and salt spray chamber at the place as well....

Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do..

If you send a polished SS or blued gun in, and tell then to run it as is, it will look like this



if you ask for flat, it will look like these.




If you have SS part "this can ONLY be done on SS", H&M can do this..


"Tan" Nitide.. same corrosion resistance and same lubricity as black... but not as hard.
Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get it to 70RC, the tan is in the 50's


You can send in stuff that is "duracoated" or similar, they will strip it..


Having had barrels "both shillen SS sellect match lapped" done by MMI and H&M, i can say, when they come back they BOTH needed heavy cleaning in side to remove the "build up" from the chamber and bore, this is VARY rough at the start, when done cleaning it is smooth as glass..

Why does this need done?
The finish you see on the outside looks the way it does due to the company "polishing" the finish after it is done, this is done with glass beads at 40psi to remove the oxidation from the process, while this should not effect the inside of the bore, no company would take the chance that it "might' and ruin a good barrel

Bobby Keigans from Freedom Gunworks.
Post-processing - It is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting. I suggest using a mild abrasive such as Flitz, Iosso, or JB Bore Paste on a tight fitted patch. Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. Don't expect your old load to shoot the same. My experiences have shown me that a new load development will be in order.

It took me about 45 min per barrel.

Start by running a WET patch in the bore when u get it back...
let it soak for 5 min

"I wouldn't use a good brush it might get trashed" wet the brush push this down the bore this will be stiff as hell for the 1st 5 pass's
you will need to do at least 30 stokes, after the 1st 10, it should have you normal resistance

Run some more wet patchs, they will look like mud when that come out

If you have JB bore paste, this is when you break that out for 20 strokes.. if no JB, us can use flitz or other polish on a patch

Now some more wet patchs to clean that out, they should be black but should feel as smooth or smoother then when you sent the gun in.

Now the chamber.. either use a chamber brush, or over sized brush, IE: 45acp brush for a 308 or 10mm brush for a 223 chamber.
shrub the hell out of it, personnelly i chuck the rod in a cordless drill and buzz it for a few seconds..

Wipe out the chamber and you are done.

This is what the patches looked like coming out..




Both guns i have done this to get zero copper fowling, i just took my 260 in the pics to a 1200y shoot the other day and put 125 123amax @ 3250fps down the tube... no fouling..
havent cleaned it and put another 75 down, still no copper..

Some people report a FPS increase of 40 to 60 FPS, "maybe", but think about this.. SBN is slicker then chrome...
http://blacknitride.com/img/friction-test.jpg

How smooth and slippery is the bore?
If you coat bullets with moly or HBN, you will lose 50 to 100fps due to the lubricity..

My before and after FPS test with these barrel dropped 60FPS with the same load...
What dose that tell you?

Also, a nice thing is on the bolt, with the RC as hard as 70, it feels like glass on glass.. it really soothed it out.. I also made sure to lap the lugs before sending it in as well.

Also, SBN can not "chip" off like chrome or other coatings...
Pic's of the of the work I had done..

 

[ranger1183]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Ring,
great write up! I wish all your pictures came through. Hopefully you'll get those posted soon.
Good Job!

 

[goober]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The decreased friction is one thing that melonite will do.

The other is adding some material to the bore- IE closing the bore slightly.

That will increase pressure.

I've always heard of velocity drops and that never made any sense on account of the material thickness Melonite adds (.0004" a side with melonite, or as much as .001" a side with melonite QPQ).

Now hearing of velocity increases, while that makes sense, results on both sides of the spectrum still make no sense and sound like a technique that is far from perfected.

Heat treaters love to throw things in ovens. What they don't like to do is tell you what will happen when they come out. Their work is half art, and half science.

I would rather it were 100% scientific. </div></div>I cannot understand how you can get extra speed when you have less friction ? Moly slows a projectile down due to less pressure build up because of less friction using the same powder load for an uncoated projo . How can this process speed a projo up given it creates less fricticion and pressure ?

 

[SIE107]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

You will get more speed because of the reduction of pressure, you will be able to put more powder in the case. It is more about load density then anything really.

 

[Ring]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ring,
great write up! I wish all your pictures came through. Hopefully you'll get those posted soon.
Good Job!</div></div>

all is here..
https://sites.google.com/site/freeballisticcalculator/black-nitride-melonite-and-qpq


pics here

http://ring.minus.com/mdyTh2V#1

 

[xJohnBrownx]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

The only reasons I can imagine for more velocity would be if the bore diameter was reduced, as was previously mentioned.
Or, possibly the powder used had a burn rate that happened to work better with the reduced friction in the treated barrel.
Generally the experience has been that when bullets or barrels are treated with a friction reducing technique the result is less velocity. So you load more powder to get the velocity back, accepted.

Questions-

1.When you load more powder to bring velocity back up how is pressure affected, does it come up to the same level as before when the bullet is at the same velocity as before, will the relationship between velocity and pressure remain constant?

2. Since the bullet can travel down the bore faster with less friction, wouldn't it follow that the ideal powder would need to burn faster to take full advantage of the reduced friction?

If, at the same velocity, pressure is the same in a treated barrel as an untreated barrel the major benefit I see in melonite is extended barrel life.

If, by tuning powder & load to a treated barrel it is possible to achieve less pressure at equal velocities, I think major benefits would be seen in performance as well. Particularly when working with heavy 6.5 & 7mm bullets that have relatively long bearing surfaces.
I am also curious about the possibility of using WS2 or HBN coated bullet in conjunction with a nitrocarburized barrel.

 

[Lofty]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Im in the process of planning a new build and was thinking about this process for the barrel and action.

Does anyone have any pics of their barrels after having the process done without any coating applied? I've had several LWRC rifles and I really like the deep blue/black look the process adds to the metal and was considering just leaving the parts with no coating after they're done as it doesn't seem they will need it to protect them from corrosion or anything.

 

[Ring]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JBrown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am also curious about the possibility of using WS2 or HBN coated bullet in conjunction with a nitrocarburized barrel.</div></div>

i have HBN, i use it in my 243 and 223 nitrided barrels.. havenent tried it in my 260 nitraded yet..

 

[xJohnBrownx]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i have HBN, i use it in my 243 and 223 nitrided barrels.. </div></div>

Results? Velocity, point of impact, or group size changes comparing to untreated bullets?

 

[goober]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIE107</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will get more speed because of the reduction of pressure, you will be able to put more powder in the case. It is more about load density then anything really. </div></div>less presure = less speed = generally more powder to make up speed due to pressure loss and speed loss

 

[VKC]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

All I know it that after melonite treatment my barrel seems to be getting more velocity.

Time will tell if it will last longer, but after several hundred rounds of hot loads with my 7mm WSM, I don't see any sign of wear and my brass still measures the exact same chamber dimensions. Accuracy is still great.

 

[goober]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

You would have to measure youre throat to see if you have lands erosion or look at it with a bore scope .Still I cannot understand why you would get more speed as Moly does the same, less pressure and it makes the projectile leaves the barrel slower than a non moly projectile due to less pressure behind the pill

 

[turbo54]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

Does anyone have the lowdown on HOW to determine when your barrel is ready to be treated?

I understand it's recommended to have some rounds through, but not "too many".

Currently, my new 284 is sitting at 47 rounds. The barrel coppered up pretty good the first 4 or 5 rounds but settled. Yesterday, starting with a dead nuts clean barrel with 23 rounds through, I fired 24 rounds with no cleaning. Upon inspection at home, I definitely had some copper in the bore, though a dose of KG12 and 15 minutes knocked it right out.

Think I should fire more before melonite?

 

[ncboiler]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

I can tell you that I put 20-25 rounds through each barrel before I had them sent out for melonite. I had 4 barrels done at the same time. This was with 260 and 7WSM.

 

[turbo54]

Re: "Melonite barrel treatment" (DONE)!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoldenRSR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can tell you that I put 20-25 rounds through each barrel before I had them sent out for melonite. I had 4 barrels done at the same time. This was with 260 and 7WSM.

</div></div>

Mind elaborating on the barrels' copper situation before/after?

Did you see copper for the first few, see it decrease a good bit, then treat?