Reload precision rifle on Dillon 650?

[ubet]

As the title says, what did you guys think? I'm set up currently to reload for 308win on a single stage. This winter I got a Dillon 650 and have been reloading 223 and 45acp on it. But I'm thinking I might want to try to reload 308win on it. I would still weigh each powder charge across the scale. I'm buying 200 new Lapua brass and am planning on tweaking my current load to work with the new brass. I fl size everything.

Another question, which dies would you recommend to do this? I currently have rcbs dies. But if I'd be better off with a different seater, I'll damn sure go and buy one.
Tia

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[Sheldon N]

I use a 550 and know several people who do it on a 650. Works great. For dies you'll get the best results by separating FL sizing and neck expansion into two stations. I use a Forster full length sizing die with the expander removed. Forster will custom hone the neck of the die to your desired specs for just $12 when you order the die. You want about .004 smaller than the OD of a loaded round neck. I use a Sinclair gen II carbide expander to open the neck to get .002 neck tension.

To help keep ammo low runout you should make sure your press is set up with good alignment between the toolhead and ram, Dillon has an alignment pin that you can use. Then you want to free float the dies so they can self align. Whidden toolhead is nicest for this, but you can also use rubber o rings under the die and just tighten them a little bit so they can still move around but not back out under use.

For powder funnels, I think Area 419 has a really nice setup that adapts to a Dillon powder die. I made my own using a MTM universal funnel and drop tube kit.

 

[ubet]

Thanks for the reply. As far as seater die goes, who would you recommend, Foerster, Redding or?

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[Sheldon N]

I have both the Forster and Redding Micrometer seater dies and both work great. Maybe the Forster would be the better choice since it's cheaper, especially if you're already ordering a sizing die.

 

[RampedRaptor]

I use a 550 and know several people who do it on a 650. Works great. For dies you'll get the best results by separating FL sizing and neck expansion into two stations. I use a Forster full length sizing die with the expander removed. Forster will custom hone the neck of the die to your desired specs for just $12 when you order the die. You want about .004 smaller than the OD of a loaded round neck. I use a Sinclair gen II carbide expander to open the neck to get .002 neck tension.

I'm actually gearing up to load everything on my 650 right now. Will test on the 6 fat rat first to make sure run out can be controlled before I switch entirely over.

When you say size and expand in different stages does that apply when you are using a FL bushing die say from whidden or the Redding type s? Or is it recommended to oversize (reduce) the neck diameter a thou or 2 with a FL bushing die and then expand the neck for the appropriate amount of next tension ?

I've always thought about trying neck expansion as a final sizing to adjust next tension but I've had such good luck with bushing dies I haven't played around with it yet.


Thanks

 

[Sheldon N]

I've tried FL bushing dies followed by an expander mandrel however I found that I got better results (less runout) by using a FL non-bushing die. With the Forster honed die you can set the neck tension so that the expander only moves the brass by .001. Only downside is that once you set it you can't adjust.

One option I just saw, but haven't tried, is someone offering expander mandrels in different sizes so you can adjust tension with those. Very cool concept, though I'm not sure if I want to go down that path. Set neck tension at 0.002, build your load around powder charge and seating depth testing seems to be enough work already. Adding a whole additional layer of neck tension testing starts to go into benchrest territory. Sure it can make a difference, but probably overkill for PRS shooting.

 

[ubet]

Should I run the new Lapua brass through the fl die and an expander die?

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[Sheldon N]

I've never bothered to size virgin brass, just double check that the headspace on the brass is good and the load and shoot. Lapua has a fair bit of neck tension so some guys like to expand the necks with a mandrel, but to me that was too much hassle to lube/size/clean load etc when they're basically good to go from the factory. No wrong answer IMO, either is fine.

 

[Marksman10x]

I 100% agree with Sheldon, here's some more reading for you...

https://www.google.com/search?q=sho...ndroid-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

[spife7980]

I would, seating bullets on 223 lapua was hella tough with the undersized/overtensioned cases in virgin form. And it's not that much extra work.

Unless you're not looking to develop on it and only want to foreform.

 

[Deadshot2]

I've been loading some precision .308 ammo on my 650 for some time. A couple years ago I bough a Whidden tool head with the floating bushings for sizing and seating. Earlier this year I bought a Whidden Die set for 6.5 Creedmoor and was impressed enough I will be replacing my Redding .308 dies with another Whidden set.

All powder is dispensed and weighed on my Chargemaster and to make sure there is no tilt in the shell plate caused by the sizing operation I use extra "powder dies", just the sleeve, in any vacant station and screw them down to the point they touch the plate and take out any possible slack. Since the powder die in the charging station is just used as a funnel for dropping powder and doesn't have to be adjusted for proper operation of the powder measure I snug it down too.

I've been getting great ammo but I just have to remember "Pour powder ONLY when ram is UP!!!!

 

[Sheldon N]

I've been getting great ammo but I just have to remember "Pour powder ONLY when ram is UP!!!!

Such a painful lesson... I've been there many times myself. lol.

 

[6AYoteHunter]

Black Hills has used Dillon presses and their loads off those machines shot really well. Think a Redding T7 would be the only other quick method for good long range loads. Single stage will be the most accurate though IMHO.

 

[Sheldon N]

Single stage will be the most accurate though IMHO.

Can't complain about the results I'm getting from my Dillon 550, every bit as good as my single stage. Brass is under 0.001" runout, super consistent neck tension and sized dimensions, and the ammo shoots in the 0.1-0.2 MOA range for 5 shot groups.

 

[RampedRaptor]

I've been loading some precision .308 ammo on my 650 for some time. A couple years ago I bough a Whidden tool head with the floating bushings for sizing and seating. Earlier this year I bought a Whidden Die set for 6.5 Creedmoor and was impressed enough I will be replacing my Redding .308 dies with another Whidden set

Do you think the whidden tool head helped decrease run out? I've kicked around the idea of buying one with the clamp kit installed but then I recall posts where some reloaders actually went back to the original dillon tool head. They felt the movement in the factory tool head allowed for case self alignment in the dies and produced better ammo.

This is just what I recall reading in the past and was curious if you saw a measurable improvement ?

thanks

 

[Deadshot2]

Black Hills has used Dillon presses and their loads off those machines shot really well. Think a Redding T7 would be the only other quick method for good long range loads. Single stage will be the most accurate though IMHO.

I used to think that too but then asked myself "what does a single stage do other than just one step at a time?" A good solid progressive, with the same attention to detail, can (and does) yield finished ammo with the same charge weights, seating depths, total indicated runout on case and bullet. It just performs the same steps without having to place each case in the press for each step.

The key is to have a press that is solid and doesn't yield as pressures are applied. The Dillon's fit that quality.

If you have the need for 500 or more pieces of match ammo, which would you prefer. A Dillon progressive (550 or 650) that you can turn out the batch in 2-1/2-3 hours (when weighing each charge my rate is ~200 per hour) or a single stage that could take you all day?

I have learned that on many occasions my ammo shoots better than I regardless of how I loaded it

 

[ubet]

Is the uniquetek tool head clamp worth the hassle/price?

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[Sheldon N]

I'm just running the standard Dillon toolhead with rubber o-rings under the dies to let them float and self align. I think the Whidden toolhead is a nicer way to accomplish the same thing but I don't know if it's necessary. With an o-ring you have to adjust the amount of float by how tight you screw the die onto the o-ring but without crushing the o-ring or leaving it too loose. Takes a bit of feathering the position in combination with adjusting the lock ring. With the Whidden design you have a fixed position for the floating die, and you just adjust the lock ring. I think both can work well. Cost no object I'd probably run the Whidden or Uniquetek, but once I had my standard toolhead set up properly I didn't see a need to upgrade.

 

[Petrov]

I know a bench rest guy that makes ammo on it with ES of 10FPS. not 650 but a 550 and me modifed the tool head.
I dont like messing with dies so I use a singe stage co-ax.
Deadshot2 I am curious, how does your runout look like?

 

[padom]

I've been making my 77g 223 precision ammo on my XL650 for over a year now. I did side by side testing with 25rd loaded on my Co-Ax and 25rd loaded on my 650. Same 0.5moa accuracy and single digit SD's. Run out was the same as well around .001.

I use a Dillon Billet toolhead and Forster Ultra Micrometer seating die. Throwing 8208XBR which meters great.

 

[pmclaine]

Little side bar please.......

Padom what are you pushing your 77s with 23, 23.5 of 8208XBR?

 

[padom]

Sorry bud I clicked edit instead of quote on your above post.

23.6g 8208 out of my 20" Rainier Ultramatch (shilen) they are 2800fps. My buddies shilen barrel shoots the same exact load same speed.

Im.now shooting the 73 ELDM at 23.5g at 2855

 

[pmclaine]

Okay I'm in the ballpark with a 16 inch LMT CQB and 23.2 XBR/Nosler 77 CC.

That load shot really well last time I loaded .223

About to tool up the S1050 for small primer production.

 

[SND]

My experience with the 550 is the same as above: every bit as good and arguably better results as on my friends red single stage but much quicker. Next on the agenda is using the 8208 with the Dillon powder measure in full progressive mode. Everything else is worked out so I'm thinking it's not a huge stretch. Also - kudos to DS2 for his recent coaching on an improvement that made a huge difference in my OAL consistency. I read his stuff very, very closely ...

+1 to Less time loading, more time shooting.

 

[pmclaine]

8208 is good to go with the Dillon measure. I run full speed with confidence when loading .223 for AR.

I should look into 8208 for my .30 cal loads but I have a Garand in the mix and I've been staying with traditional log powders 4895/4064 - pulling each case, trickling to weight and resuming the progression.

I did polish up my measure for good measure (NPI).

 

[Sheldon N]

My experience with the 550 is the same as above: every bit as good and arguably better results as on my friends red single stage but much quicker. Next on the agenda is using the 8208 with the Dillon powder measure in full progressive mode. Everything else is worked out so I'm thinking it's not a huge stretch. Also - kudos to DS2 for his recent coaching on an improvement that made a huge difference in my OAL consistency. I read his stuff very, very closely ...

+1 to Less time loading, more time shooting.

Thumbs up for 8208 in the Dillon powder measure. My tests of 8208 in my Dilloin thrower showed an SD of 0.08gr and an ES of 0.26gr powder charge weight variation across 20 charges. A larger stick powder like Varget has almost twice the variability.

Could you share the tip from DS2 on OAL consistency?

 

[ubet]

I've been loading some precision .308 ammo on my 650 for some time. A couple years ago I bough a Whidden tool head with the floating bushings for sizing and seating. Earlier this year I bought a Whidden Die set for 6.5 Creedmoor and was impressed enough I will be replacing my Redding .308 dies with another Whidden set.

All powder is dispensed and weighed on my Chargemaster and to make sure there is no tilt in the shell plate caused by the sizing operation I use extra "powder dies", just the sleeve, in any vacant station and screw them down to the point they touch the plate and take out any possible slack. Since the powder die in the charging station is just used as a funnel for dropping powder and doesn't have to be adjusted for proper operation of the powder measure I snug it down too.

I've been getting great ammo but I just have to remember "Pour powder ONLY when ram is UP!!!!

What powder dies are you using and where is a good place to get them?
I should only have one empty station, and that would be the crimp station.


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[SND]

Thx for the input on 8208 gents. I did put the shine on the inside of the powder funnel right on down into where the powder drops into the charge bar. Really improved overall performance except with 308 amounts of varget and RE15. I can hit 25 gr of these powders every time for ..223, but there's .1-.2 gr variations at 40-43 gr charges. Additionally, did the same basic grind and polish to the ID of my Dillon manual powder die to make sure there's no ledge for powder to sit on when it's dropped through the funnel.

give me a bit on the OAL mod ...

 

[RampedRaptor]

I will try the o ring under the die technique but I've always thought of it as a gate way for other problems to arise I.e: increased run out, variation in seating depth and variation in amount the shoulders are bumped back.

Speaking of 8208. The first precision cartridge I want to load on the 650 is the 6 fat rat and the powder that I'm hoping works is 8208. It may be too quick on the burn rate chart but only time will tell.

Interested in OAL mod also.....

 

[Sheldon N]

I will try the o ring under the die technique but I've always thought of it as a gate way for other problems to arise I.e: increased run out, variation in seating depth and variation in amount the shoulders are bumped back.

Speaking of 8208. The first precision cartridge I want to load on the 650 is the 6 fat rat and the powder that I'm hoping works is 8208. It may be too quick on the burn rate chart but only time will tell.

No issues at all with the o-ring on my loads. The threads are what keep the die in vertical position, the o-ring is just to keep it from rotating and to allow slight changes in the angle. I just grabbed 10 loaded rounds from the last batch of match ammo I loaded on the 550 to double check consistency. Shoulder bump is consistent within +/- 0.0005, seating depth consistent within +/- 0.001" and runout was 0.001 or less on all cases.

I think you'll like 8208 in the 6 Fat Rat. I run it in my 6 Dasher which has similar capacity. I use it for lower velocity practice loads and it does awesome, 29.2gr at 2800 fps. Seems to be easier on the barrel too. I'm not seeing much throat erosion thus far (1300 rds on this barrel) and the barrel doesn't get as hot as it does with Varget.

 

[padom]

Single stage will be the most accurate though IMHO.

This has been proven wrong time and time again. Yes, the single stage is easier and quicker to get setup but not more accurate. I personally have done side by side comparison with my Co-Ax and XL650 loading the same components, same load on both presses with identical runout (.001 max, most times less) identical 5 shot group accuracy at 100yd and 500yd and both have single digit SD's. Im not the only one thats proven this myth wrong over the years....

 

[SND]

Thumbs up for 8208 in the Dillon powder measure. My tests of 8208 in my Dilloin thrower showed an SD of 0.08gr and an ES of 0.26gr powder charge weight variation across 20 charges. A larger stick powder like Varget has almost twice the variability.

Could you share the tip from DS2 on OAL consistency?

Adding a stop to the toolhead - in the center drilling where it sits on the stand. I started by rounding the points off a 5/16 heavy hex nut and press fitting it into the center tool stand hole, flush with the top of the toolhead. Add a 5/16 cap screw with the hex cap facing down, that is, towards the shell plate. Next, carefully hack-saw a slot on the threaded end of the fastener (facing up) for a slotted screw driver to fit in and run a lock nut down from the top. Run the die up to the top, run the cap screw down on the Allen head holding the shell plate in place (just a teeny bit past) and snug up the lock nut on top using a socket. Did the first one in 45 mins, the second one in 20. Toughest part was working the points off the hex nut to fit it in the center hole. Drill press, hack saw, single cut file and vice are about all that's needed. I had the fasteners laying around. This improved my OAL dramatically ...

I've let a few used Dillon 650's get past me over the past couple years - looks like I'll grab the next one up based on the experience of other posters here.

 

[padom]

To add to my above post, in my XL650 with the billet toolheads I am using Forster Ultra Micrometer seating dies and Forster FL Sizing dies for rifle cartridges (expander removed and 21st Century TiN expander mandrels for .002 neck tension) and Redding Competition Micrometer pistol seating dies. I was getting higher but acceptable runout with Dillon dies.

Also, for those that are interested. I do not process brass and load all on the same toolhead. I have separate brass prep and loading toolheads for each caliber (except pistol cartridges). I run all my LC 5.56, LC 300blk and 6.5cm semi through a brass prep toolhead that deprimes, bumps shoulder, trims (Dillon RT1500) and mandrel sets neck tension. I prep brass in large batches of a few thousand at a time over the winter months. I then SS tumble, debur the case mouth and store in large plastic bins.

I dont have to prep brass at all for these calibers during the shooting season. I have more than enough brass ready to load.

 

[6AYoteHunter]

Thanks for the info padom! Think the differences I have seen may have been related to using dillon dies. Will have to throw a set of redding dies into a 650 and load up more rounds that way.

 

[jsthntn247]

That is some serious reloading set up you got there Padom. Where did you get those gold expander mandrels.

 

[padom]

They are Titanium Nitride and I have them in all different sizes from 21st Century Shooting.

 

[Scimitar]

I use the uniquetek clamp system on every tool head in a rifle caliber that I have for my 550. I like the press a lot better than my Hornady LNL. I want a 650 now so I can use a rifle casefeeder.
Building my own powder measure(drop) for the Dillon and the LNL. On my 4 th design now. Hopefully I'll have it finished before I die.

 

[pmclaine]

They are Titanium Nitride and I have them in all different sizes from 21st Century Shooting.

Are you good to go on reloading after the expander mandrel does its magic?

Currently I rapid trim than deburr and chamfer to avoid any sharp edges cutting the bullet jacket. It has to be the most tedious part of processing brass.

Perhaps running the mandrel would iron out any possible burrs enough to eliminate deburr/chamfer?

 

[Sheldon N]

I still champfer/deburr every time after processing the brass with a mandrel. When I sift out the brass from the tumbling media with the Dillon rotary separator the case mouth can get a little bit dinged up. I use the Lyman case prep center and do primer pocket clean, light chamfer/deburr, and neck brush as my last step of brass prep. Goes pretty quick, maybe 7-8 min per 100 cases.

 

[padom]

I SS tumble after processing brass which removes almost all the burr. I then throw them in my ready to load bins. When I am ready to load I chamfer/debur.

 

[pmclaine]

I SS tumble after processing brass which removes almost all the burr. I then throw them in my ready to load bins. When I am ready to load I chamfer/debur.

Thanks for the responses.

Looks like Ill be continuing to pull individual pieces of brass out of a full 1/2 gallon ice cream bucket, running them through the 3 stages of the Hornady case prep station than depositing each individual case into the empty 1/2 gallon container until full.

Sure it goes fast enough, just mind numbingly tedious.

 

[Blazin]

Great info here. In the Dillon 1050 less prone to accurate loads compared to the 550 and 650?

 

[pmclaine]

The S1050 suffers from a limitied workspace that wont allow you to load cartridges larger than 30-06 and in the case of 30-06 wont allow the use of micrometer seat dies that have a sliding sleeve to align the brass.

I even tried a Reddung micrometer top on one of their standard dies but the die itself was too long to work with the S1050.

Note that for use in the S1050, Dillon uses a special 30-06 die that they must mill shorter. I wasn't willing to go through the hassle of milling my dies. Im only loading for some milsurp 30-06 with one type of bullet so the Dillon seater works fine once set.

The head floats nicely though and Im guessing it allows for good alignment between the brass/die.

I don't know if the fact this press works opposite most other presses where the ram lowers the tool head down to the brass rather than the brass raising up into the tool head is a benefit or not.

Ive never measured run out but sizing and seating I get good consistency.

 

[Blazin]

The S1050 suffers from a limitied workspace that wont allow you to load cartridges larger than 30-06 and in the case of 30-06 wont allow the use of micrometer seat dies that have a sliding sleeve to align the brass.

I even tried a Reddung micrometer top on one of their standard dies but the die itself was too long to work with the S1050.

Note that for use in the S1050, Dillon uses a special 30-06 die that they must mill shorter. I wasn't willing to go through the hassle of milling my dies. Im only loading for some milsurp 30-06 with one type of bullet so the Dillon seater works fine once set.

The head floats nicely though and Im guessing it allows for good alignment between the brass/die.

I don't know if the fact this press works opposite most other presses where the ram lowers the tool head down to the brass rather than the brass raising up into the tool head is a benefit or not.

Ive never measured run out but sizing and seating I get good consistency.

Thanks for info, and I am not trying to hijack the thread. I shoot 223/DMR so I'm considering using my 1050 for at least practice ammo.

 

[pmclaine]

Thanks for info, and I am not trying to hijack the thread. I shoot 223/DMR so I'm considering using my 1050 for at least practice ammo.

S1050 works extremely well with .223 because there are great ball powders to choose from (TAC/CFE/AR Comp) and my chosen powder 8208 XBR meters real good also.

Your only problem should be needing bigger akro bins.

 

[raven88]

Currently loading with a CoAx single stage....... but interested in going the Dillon route. (friend has a 1050) We haven't tried using the progressive because of the brass prep that we do. Are you de-capping, SS wash, annealing.....then going to the progressive to trim, size and prime, etc?

Our current workflow is to de-cap, then SS wash in a thumbler, then anneal, size, trim to length. The Girard trimmer has saved a bunch of time, and we anneal using a Benchsource annealer. We are loading for 6.5 CM, 260, and 308. I am interested to know how the workflow is different when using a progressive and would a 650 Dillon be better than using a 1050?

We are using Chargemaster for powder measure.....generally within .1 gr. (primarily use H4350 and Varget) but having to check with Gempro 250 electronic to verify. Time consuming and looking for a better mousetrap for powder dispensing too.

 

[Sheldon N]

Currently loading with a CoAx single stage....... but interested in going the Dillon route. (friend has a 1050) We haven't tried using the progressive because of the brass prep that we do. Are you de-capping, SS wash, annealing.....then going to the progressive to trim, size and prime, etc?

Our current workflow is to de-cap, then SS wash in a thumbler, then anneal, size, trim to length. The Girard trimmer has saved a bunch of time, and we anneal using a Benchsource annealer. We are loading for 6.5 CM, 260, and 308. I am interested to know how the workflow is different when using a progressive and would a 650 Dillon be better than using a 1050?

We are using Chargemaster for powder measure.....generally within .1 gr. (primarily use H4350 and Varget) but having to check with Gempro 250 electronic to verify. Time consuming and looking for a better mousetrap for powder dispensing too.

I would prefer a 550 or 650 for that over a 1050.

My workflow is corncob tumble with primers still in, anneal, lube, then feed through Dillon 550 for deprime, FL size, expander mandrel neck. Tumble again to take the lube off, then clean primer pocket, champfer, debur, brush neck on a Lyman case prep center. At that point brass is ready to load and set aside. Loading is on the Dillon 550 on a separate toolhead, deprime die to clear flash hole of any media, powder funnel for precision weighed charges, bullet seating die. Area 419 makes a nice powder funnel and attachment for the Dillon. You can make your own too with a cheap MTM Funnel kit.

For powder weighing the better mousetrap you are looking for is the A&D FX120i with an Autotrickler from www.autotrickler.com. I just use a GemPro 250 and count kernels to hit target weight rather than trickling, works fairly well.

 

[raven88]

yes, I been looking at that better mousetrap...... looks like 1k for the whole works with the scale......i'm not quite there yet. I haven't timed how long to load 100rds, but it is way longer than when we load 100rd of 223 on the dillon...... we still punch primers and use a stainless wash......but after drying, we lube up a bunch and drop them in the case feeder and go.....fast. Thanks for your response

 

[Sheldon N]

yes, I been looking at that better mousetrap...... looks like 1k for the whole works with the scale......i'm not quite there yet. I haven't timed how long to load 100rds, but it is way longer than when we load 100rd of 223 on the dillon...... we still punch primers and use a stainless wash......but after drying, we lube up a bunch and drop them in the case feeder and go.....fast. Thanks for your response

It takes me roughly 50 minutes to prime, powder charge, bullet seat 100 match grade rounds on the Dillon 550 using the GemPro 250 scale weighing powder +/- 0.02gr and pouring the charges into the funnel on the press. Workflow is to drop a powder charge from a thrower and set it on the scale. While the scale is registering the weight I prime, advance the shellplate, add a bullet, add another piece of prepped brass, and pull the handle down. Then I look at the scale, quick mental math how many kernels are missing, sweep those into the pan off a small raised platform, then dump the powder into the funnel on the press. Then drop another charge, place it on the scale and repeat cycle. I know the A&D setup would be faster, but I'm thinking maybe only by 10 minutes or so?

When I run with the Dillon powder thrower instead of the GemPro it takes only 15 minutes to prime, powder charge, bullet seat 100 cases. Working with pre-prepped brass on both.

 

[TheGerman]

Precision loading on the 650 will depend more on what powder you want to use than anything.