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Remington 700 What do you hate?
- Thread starter hesco
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Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshotkyle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">j-lock </div></div>
As far as i know they dont make the 700 with the j lock anymore, easty fix to replace the firing pin assembly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshotkyle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">j-lock </div></div>
As far as i know they dont make the 700 with the j lock anymore, easty fix to replace the firing pin assembly.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I have never really liked the bolt release. I really prefer a bolt release to be mounted on the side of the action.
Paul
I have never really liked the bolt release. I really prefer a bolt release to be mounted on the side of the action.
Paul
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Engine22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger sucks balls. The typical composite stock is pretty much resembles hammered dog shit too! </div></div>
The trigger is my second beef, you can get it decent by tinkering, but a replacement timney is much better.
Another improvement would be to implement a barrel nut like savage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Engine22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger sucks balls. The typical composite stock is pretty much resembles hammered dog shit too! </div></div>
The trigger is my second beef, you can get it decent by tinkering, but a replacement timney is much better.
Another improvement would be to implement a barrel nut like savage.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Many of the issues we have with the M700: safety, extractor, exposed rear action hole, brazed bolt handle, bolt release, were all done to achieve a price point.
They all can be addressed in the aftermarket with $$, but my peeve is the bolt release. They could have done a better release, like the M70 with absolutely no increase in cost. While a M98 or M77 type release would be nice, its' more parts so more cost, but the M70 style has no more parts and the same machining operations.
Many of the issues we have with the M700: safety, extractor, exposed rear action hole, brazed bolt handle, bolt release, were all done to achieve a price point.
They all can be addressed in the aftermarket with $$, but my peeve is the bolt release. They could have done a better release, like the M70 with absolutely no increase in cost. While a M98 or M77 type release would be nice, its' more parts so more cost, but the M70 style has no more parts and the same machining operations.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Remingtons are like Jeeps. They both work as sold and have rabid followers but if you want them to perform you have to tear them apart and build them.
Cheers,
Doc
Remingtons are like Jeeps. They both work as sold and have rabid followers but if you want them to perform you have to tear them apart and build them.
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Ditto what everyone else has said. On the brighter side, there are more parts and accessories available for the Remington than any other bolt gun. It is possible to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Ditto what everyone else has said. On the brighter side, there are more parts and accessories available for the Remington than any other bolt gun. It is possible to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I only have one complaint with my 700. I don't mind the extractor, always worked for me. I haven't ever had an issue. The exposed action screw. I kinda like the bolt release where it is. I reworked the factory trigger and it breaks like glass at 3#. I love my 700P.
My only complaint is the crappy parkerized finish that rusts if u even so much as look at it wrong. And if u touch it w bare hands or get it wet ur in real trouble! Good luck getting that cleaned up. Absolutely no excuse for a finish like that done so poorly.
Paulus
I only have one complaint with my 700. I don't mind the extractor, always worked for me. I haven't ever had an issue. The exposed action screw. I kinda like the bolt release where it is. I reworked the factory trigger and it breaks like glass at 3#. I love my 700P.
My only complaint is the crappy parkerized finish that rusts if u even so much as look at it wrong. And if u touch it w bare hands or get it wet ur in real trouble! Good luck getting that cleaned up. Absolutely no excuse for a finish like that done so poorly.
Paulus
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Hmm...I drive a jeep and deploy with a 700P. I never did anything to the Jeep, and the only thing I've done to the 700P is give it a camo duracoat job. Both the vehicle and the rifle serve me well. I guess I'm just lucky.
Hmm...I drive a jeep and deploy with a 700P. I never did anything to the Jeep, and the only thing I've done to the 700P is give it a camo duracoat job. Both the vehicle and the rifle serve me well. I guess I'm just lucky.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
On the new ones, out of the box, most old ones I have don't have these issues. X-mark triggers, junk stocks on sps models, internal mags don't feed reliably, long throats, chambers on the large side, sloppy firing pin holes, and rough ejector plunger passage. Remington's matte bluing, I imagine their actual parkerizing is as good as most, is a bad idea poorly executed, bluing offers little corrosion resistence and putting it on a sand blasted surface creates a multitude of places for moisture, salts, and other corrosives to take root, but it holds paint well and gives a nice texture to coatings. Bolt release, handle, safety, exposed screw are all fine by me, though I wouldn't mind a better attachment method for the bolt handle, and threads so the knob could easily be changed. Barrel nuts are highly functional and convenient if you're into changing barrels, but hideous, I don't want one.
On the new ones, out of the box, most old ones I have don't have these issues. X-mark triggers, junk stocks on sps models, internal mags don't feed reliably, long throats, chambers on the large side, sloppy firing pin holes, and rough ejector plunger passage. Remington's matte bluing, I imagine their actual parkerizing is as good as most, is a bad idea poorly executed, bluing offers little corrosion resistence and putting it on a sand blasted surface creates a multitude of places for moisture, salts, and other corrosives to take root, but it holds paint well and gives a nice texture to coatings. Bolt release, handle, safety, exposed screw are all fine by me, though I wouldn't mind a better attachment method for the bolt handle, and threads so the knob could easily be changed. Barrel nuts are highly functional and convenient if you're into changing barrels, but hideous, I don't want one.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razerok1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger, bolt release, shitty finishes that rust, and ugly undersized bolt handle. </div></div>
This hits the nail on the head.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razerok1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger, bolt release, shitty finishes that rust, and ugly undersized bolt handle. </div></div>
This hits the nail on the head.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the new ones, out of the box, most old ones I have don't have these issues. X-mark triggers, junk stocks on sps models, internal mags don't feed reliably, long throats, chambers on the large side, sloppy firing pin holes, and rough ejector plunger passage. Remington's matte bluing, I imagine their actual parkerizing is as good as most, is a bad idea poorly executed, bluing offers little corrosion resistence and putting it on a sand blasted surface creates a multitude of places for moisture, salts, and other corrosives to take root, but it holds paint well and gives a nice texture to coatings. Bolt release, handle, safety, exposed screw are all fine by me, though I wouldn't mind a better attachment method for the bolt handle, and threads so the knob could easily be changed. Barrel nuts are highly functional and convenient if you're into changing barrels, but hideous, I don't want one. </div></div>
Would like to see a barrel nut, not just for easy barrel changes, its a lot easier to headspace, also adds ridgidity to the barrel action joint, they can be made smaller and blended in, for better eye appeal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beef</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On the new ones, out of the box, most old ones I have don't have these issues. X-mark triggers, junk stocks on sps models, internal mags don't feed reliably, long throats, chambers on the large side, sloppy firing pin holes, and rough ejector plunger passage. Remington's matte bluing, I imagine their actual parkerizing is as good as most, is a bad idea poorly executed, bluing offers little corrosion resistence and putting it on a sand blasted surface creates a multitude of places for moisture, salts, and other corrosives to take root, but it holds paint well and gives a nice texture to coatings. Bolt release, handle, safety, exposed screw are all fine by me, though I wouldn't mind a better attachment method for the bolt handle, and threads so the knob could easily be changed. Barrel nuts are highly functional and convenient if you're into changing barrels, but hideous, I don't want one. </div></div>
Would like to see a barrel nut, not just for easy barrel changes, its a lot easier to headspace, also adds ridgidity to the barrel action joint, they can be made smaller and blended in, for better eye appeal.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Yes, I did change out the bolt knob. I had a Badger Ordnance one installed by AZ precision, so I guess I'm up to two pet hates.
That original bolt knob just sucks. Big time. So many better alternatives out there, and yeah, the finish is a BIG BIG deal for me. The rifle will eventually get cerakoated.
Other than that, pretty happy with my 700P.
Paulus
Yes, I did change out the bolt knob. I had a Badger Ordnance one installed by AZ precision, so I guess I'm up to two pet hates.
That original bolt knob just sucks. Big time. So many better alternatives out there, and yeah, the finish is a BIG BIG deal for me. The rifle will eventually get cerakoated.
Other than that, pretty happy with my 700P.
Paulus
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razerok1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger, bolt release, shitty finishes that rust, and ugly undersized bolt handle.</div></div>
AMEN! I've upgraded from all of this except for the bolt release:
- Tinmey trigger ... order of magnitude nicer
- Kampfield custom tactical bolt knob ... very nice
- Duracoat ... no more lame finish
On the plus side, it's such a common action that it's easy to upgrade as funds come available.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razerok1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger, bolt release, shitty finishes that rust, and ugly undersized bolt handle.</div></div>
AMEN! I've upgraded from all of this except for the bolt release:
- Tinmey trigger ... order of magnitude nicer
- Kampfield custom tactical bolt knob ... very nice
- Duracoat ... no more lame finish
On the plus side, it's such a common action that it's easy to upgrade as funds come available.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
On finishes:
The 700s sure do rust like crazy! I've had a Savage for years that was taking on a couple rust freckles - but the 700 is a full time job to keep it from being consumed!
Parkerizing is really easy though... just degrease, blast, degrease, and dunk. My re-park came out a lot nicer and protects against rust much better than Remmy's.
On finishes:
The 700s sure do rust like crazy! I've had a Savage for years that was taking on a couple rust freckles - but the 700 is a full time job to keep it from being consumed!
Parkerizing is really easy though... just degrease, blast, degrease, and dunk. My re-park came out a lot nicer and protects against rust much better than Remmy's.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Scope mount holes drilled crooked into the receiver and/or half-ass tapped screw holes.
What do I hate worse than that? Sending it back to Remington to be fixed only to have them to make it even worse.
Must have hired some of the former "smiths" (read: drunk monkeys with hammers) from Century to work the line.
Scope mount holes drilled crooked into the receiver and/or half-ass tapped screw holes.
What do I hate worse than that? Sending it back to Remington to be fixed only to have them to make it even worse.
Must have hired some of the former "smiths" (read: drunk monkeys with hammers) from Century to work the line.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Sounds like you guys need Winchesters........
I'm probably too new here to say such things!
Sounds like you guys need Winchesters........
I'm probably too new here to say such things!
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Blind screw holes would give less thread engagement. Blind screw holes also require the user to know if he is tightening the screw against the action or the stock. This could cause accuracy complaints from people who do not know what they are doing. The extractor is a normal wear part. They are cheap and should be replaced as needed. I get the same complaint from 1911 owners who think an extractor is something you pass down to your grandchildren. There are aftermarket actions that solve the other problems. Surgeon for me.
Blind screw holes would give less thread engagement. Blind screw holes also require the user to know if he is tightening the screw against the action or the stock. This could cause accuracy complaints from people who do not know what they are doing. The extractor is a normal wear part. They are cheap and should be replaced as needed. I get the same complaint from 1911 owners who think an extractor is something you pass down to your grandchildren. There are aftermarket actions that solve the other problems. Surgeon for me.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
trigger, rusts like crazy, cant bed the "stock" stock, bolt release.
trigger, rusts like crazy, cant bed the "stock" stock, bolt release.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I hate the brazed bolt.
No reason it shouldnt be single-piece.
I also hate (with extra passion) the fact that the sight rail is not integrated into the receiver as one piece.
I hate the brazed bolt.
No reason it shouldnt be single-piece.
I also hate (with extra passion) the fact that the sight rail is not integrated into the receiver as one piece.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
From a use point, an interchangeable bolt handle would be nice. Never really minded the bolt stop. I cant think of very many factory triggers I do like.
I have to be honest though, I think most of my reservations about the 700 have came from my own irrational fears. Yeah, some bolt handles fail, some extractors go, but looked at as a whole it’s a rather robust design. I am not acting as a cheerleader, all guns have their problems. I just think most of the problems, all be it isolated to quality control, plain old defective parts and abuse, get whipped up into forum fear.
Just my take………..
From a use point, an interchangeable bolt handle would be nice. Never really minded the bolt stop. I cant think of very many factory triggers I do like.
I have to be honest though, I think most of my reservations about the 700 have came from my own irrational fears. Yeah, some bolt handles fail, some extractors go, but looked at as a whole it’s a rather robust design. I am not acting as a cheerleader, all guns have their problems. I just think most of the problems, all be it isolated to quality control, plain old defective parts and abuse, get whipped up into forum fear.
Just my take………..
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
The only thing that I really hate about Remington is the possibility that all the comments about their quality control dropping may be true. I'm planning on buying another and hate thinking it has a high chance of being a lemon!
The only thing that I really hate about Remington is the possibility that all the comments about their quality control dropping may be true. I'm planning on buying another and hate thinking it has a high chance of being a lemon!
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
The barrel, the receiver and bolt are the only things I like.
Everything else isn't quality by any means.
Actually, scratch the bolt, why arent the bolt a handle one piece? Less profit?
The barrel, the receiver and bolt are the only things I like.
Everything else isn't quality by any means.
Actually, scratch the bolt, why arent the bolt a handle one piece? Less profit?
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
What I hate is all the calibers I want they dont chamber in varmint contour barrels or chamber at all for that matter.
What I hate is all the calibers I want they dont chamber in varmint contour barrels or chamber at all for that matter.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
POS X-Mark trigger, ugly and small bolt handle, loose chambers, crappy factory stocks (applies to other manufacturers though)... But I would still pick a Remington over anything else.
POS X-Mark trigger, ugly and small bolt handle, loose chambers, crappy factory stocks (applies to other manufacturers though)... But I would still pick a Remington over anything else.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
*Lose chamber and overly long throats designed by lawyers for liability, not gunsmiths.
*Sticky bolt release buttons.
*Crappy SPS stocks, absolutely useless.
*The calibers I want aren't chambered in varmint contour barrels.
*Fluted barrels on most varmint contour barrels, I don't care for fluted barrels at all.
*Matte blued finish that rusts easily.
*Small bolt handle.
*The fact that many of these issues have been issues for years/decades and Remington won't do anything about them.
*Lose chamber and overly long throats designed by lawyers for liability, not gunsmiths.
*Sticky bolt release buttons.
*Crappy SPS stocks, absolutely useless.
*The calibers I want aren't chambered in varmint contour barrels.
*Fluted barrels on most varmint contour barrels, I don't care for fluted barrels at all.
*Matte blued finish that rusts easily.
*Small bolt handle.
*The fact that many of these issues have been issues for years/decades and Remington won't do anything about them.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I'm not a big fan of the M700. Actually I think they are borderline junk, since you have to essentially rebuild it from scratch. I thought you guys might enjoy some old pics I had but I couldn't find my pictures of the factory built M700 TI M24 in 338LM.
I wonder how long until they set the lugs back on that.
I'm not a big fan of the M700. Actually I think they are borderline junk, since you have to essentially rebuild it from scratch. I thought you guys might enjoy some old pics I had but I couldn't find my pictures of the factory built M700 TI M24 in 338LM.
I wonder how long until they set the lugs back on that.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Engine22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger sucks balls. The typical composite stock is pretty much resembles hammered dog shit too! </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Engine22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">X-mark trigger sucks balls. The typical composite stock is pretty much resembles hammered dog shit too! </div></div>
+1
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gabbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like you guys need Winchesters........
I'm probably too new here to say such things! </div></div>
Nahhh, I'd back you up
Cheers,
Doc
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gabbott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like you guys need Winchesters........
I'm probably too new here to say such things! </div></div>
Nahhh, I'd back you up
Cheers,
Doc
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
small bolt handle is my pet peev,I like an AI style ball.
I see alot of guys saying the bolt release, and i see alot of guys getting side bolt release's, whats the reasoning/advantage of this over the factory bolt release ?
small bolt handle is my pet peev,I like an AI style ball.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
X Mark blows
Sps stock sux
Bolt handle, but thats easy to fix
Mostly everything that has been mentioned before..
X Mark blows
Sps stock sux
Bolt handle, but thats easy to fix
Mostly everything that has been mentioned before..
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never really liked the bolt release. I really prefer a bolt release to be mounted on the side of the action.
Paul </div></div>
DITTO! What a TOTAL Piece of Shit! Definately the worst bolt release of any major firearms manufacturer. I'm SHOCKED that it has Never been changed!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never really liked the bolt release. I really prefer a bolt release to be mounted on the side of the action.
Paul </div></div>
DITTO! What a TOTAL Piece of Shit! Definately the worst bolt release of any major firearms manufacturer. I'm SHOCKED that it has Never been changed!
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I have to say that I do like the amount of aftermarket available.
I don't like the shitty stock. I hate the safety. The bolt handle is crappy.
Overall my experience hasn't been very good with this rifle build. I wanted the sps tactical due to the price point to get my foot in the door to precision shooting. I had to wait after paying for it due to it being on back order. No biggie there. After I got the rifle I immediately had to send it back to remington. turns out the barrel was bent. I owned the rifle now for months and haven't even got to fire it yet. I'm just hoping all the work, time and effort I'm putting into this build pays off.
I have to say that I do like the amount of aftermarket available.
I don't like the shitty stock. I hate the safety. The bolt handle is crappy.
Overall my experience hasn't been very good with this rifle build. I wanted the sps tactical due to the price point to get my foot in the door to precision shooting. I had to wait after paying for it due to it being on back order. No biggie there. After I got the rifle I immediately had to send it back to remington. turns out the barrel was bent. I owned the rifle now for months and haven't even got to fire it yet. I'm just hoping all the work, time and effort I'm putting into this build pays off.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Bolt handle and ugly pimple of a bolt knob.....got mine corrected by Phoenix Custom Rifles!!!
Bolt handle and ugly pimple of a bolt knob.....got mine corrected by Phoenix Custom Rifles!!!
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Safety
Bolt release
Trigger adjustment
Need for tool to strip bolt
"rough" bolt lift
short magazine length
I shoot both a M700 and a Winchester. IMVHO, the Winchester has some definate advantages. The only real disadvantage (other than availabity of parts) is the lack of a round receiver. Round is good when you're talking things that get worked in a lathe.
Safety
Bolt release
Trigger adjustment
Need for tool to strip bolt
"rough" bolt lift
short magazine length
I shoot both a M700 and a Winchester. IMVHO, the Winchester has some definate advantages. The only real disadvantage (other than availabity of parts) is the lack of a round receiver. Round is good when you're talking things that get worked in a lathe.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
I'm a first time 700 shooter and the bolt release is definitely the biggest let down. Otherwise I like it just fine. The only thing I'm having changed is the bolt knob.
Oh, and I have it sitting in an AICS. Not because I didn't like the police stock, but just because I wanted an AICS.
I'm a first time 700 shooter and the bolt release is definitely the biggest let down. Otherwise I like it just fine. The only thing I'm having changed is the bolt knob.
Oh, and I have it sitting in an AICS. Not because I didn't like the police stock, but just because I wanted an AICS.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
Never been a fan of the trigger. For a rifle as popular as the Rem 700 you think they could put in something a little nicer as the "stock" trigger.
Never been a fan of the trigger. For a rifle as popular as the Rem 700 you think they could put in something a little nicer as the "stock" trigger.
Re: Remington 700 What do you hate?
A penny is all you need for a bolt disassembly. Old trick.
I feel all of the pain that everyone else is feeling. Let's look at it from a pricing and manufacturing standpoint though. Like every manufacturer they looked for the best way to do something and make it as cheaply as possible without giving up a great deal. Honestly, for the hunter and even the average shooter, none of the mods listed are really necessary or make a more functional gun, just make it more customized and ergonomic.
Integral scopemounts would be nice, but then the cylindrical receiver takes on all new dimensions and material costs and becomes WAY more expensive.
The Walker trigger (original 3 screw) was not a bad trigger for the most part and could be easily and SAFELY manipulated by anyone who knew what they were doing. The X mark is simply an answer to questions asked by lawyers and unsavvy consumers.
The extractor- again, not preferable BUT- it works for the average public and that is who they are specifically selling to. Same with the bolt release. Same with the bolt knob.
My 'Beef' (no pun intended) is on QC. The bolt- 3 piece is unnecessary and I feel that could be overcome without w great deal of effort on their part, but to them the process is not broken (not badly enough to change it) so they don't fix it. When I see bolt heads soldered in out of round, and bolt handles coming off, I get a little ill about it.
Let's look at the bright side- if it weren't for the upgrades, we'd have nothing better to do with them other than pull them out of the box and shoot them. What's the fun in that?
For instance- car enthusiasts, mototrcycles etc- the serious folks don't drive stock off the lot cars or scooters- why should we shoot stock off the shelf guns? Tear them apart, customize, swap motors, chips, paint, tires etc........
Is there a production (not custom shop) gun we can't name faults on?
A penny is all you need for a bolt disassembly. Old trick.
I feel all of the pain that everyone else is feeling. Let's look at it from a pricing and manufacturing standpoint though. Like every manufacturer they looked for the best way to do something and make it as cheaply as possible without giving up a great deal. Honestly, for the hunter and even the average shooter, none of the mods listed are really necessary or make a more functional gun, just make it more customized and ergonomic.
Integral scopemounts would be nice, but then the cylindrical receiver takes on all new dimensions and material costs and becomes WAY more expensive.
The Walker trigger (original 3 screw) was not a bad trigger for the most part and could be easily and SAFELY manipulated by anyone who knew what they were doing. The X mark is simply an answer to questions asked by lawyers and unsavvy consumers.
The extractor- again, not preferable BUT- it works for the average public and that is who they are specifically selling to. Same with the bolt release. Same with the bolt knob.
My 'Beef' (no pun intended) is on QC. The bolt- 3 piece is unnecessary and I feel that could be overcome without w great deal of effort on their part, but to them the process is not broken (not badly enough to change it) so they don't fix it. When I see bolt heads soldered in out of round, and bolt handles coming off, I get a little ill about it.
Let's look at the bright side- if it weren't for the upgrades, we'd have nothing better to do with them other than pull them out of the box and shoot them. What's the fun in that?
For instance- car enthusiasts, mototrcycles etc- the serious folks don't drive stock off the lot cars or scooters- why should we shoot stock off the shelf guns? Tear them apart, customize, swap motors, chips, paint, tires etc........
Is there a production (not custom shop) gun we can't name faults on?
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