Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

300 -NOW we are getting there! I want to establish what Remington IN FACT knew before release of the product, as well as recommendations by the lead design engineer Mike Walker, who I know personally.A man I have gained much insight & inspiration from over the years I have known him.

Please bear with me Sir, this discussion is for the benefit of everyone reading the content, not just you, or for me to hear myself talk about this issue - certainly not for my benefit, or my best interest at the moment - if that were the case, I suspect I would find better things to do with my time, that would not subject myself to more exposure than I already have! I know you dont have a clue what I am talking about, but those that know me personally, are aware of the challenges ahead of me in the near future.

I once asked who would step up, when they come for me? They are at my threshold, pushing the boundaries of Justice to silence me, forever...
My life has become complicated, would be an understatement.

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

well maybe i was wrong by saying that you were twisting things to push an agenda. that is what it appeared to me by reading your response to my question. it now sounds like you have far more knowledge of this issue than was previously posted. that said, i apologize for the accusation. from where i was sitting, that is sure what it appeared to be at the time though.

i was also forwarded a bunch of remington documents that i am in the process of reviewing. many of them are barely legible though.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I think people need to quit drinking haterade. Seriously, Snipers hide is over 50,000 members strong, I have NEVER heard of one that had a problem with their remington model 700 that was a result of a bad "OUT OF THE BOX" TRIGGER. People try to modify their triggers, turn their 40-x trigger down to much, dont take care of their gun, ND their gun and when bad shit happens, they say "well, its not my fault. its remingtons fault" THATS BULLSHIT, IT'S THEIR OWN STUPIDITY!
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okrebel92</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think people need to quit drinking haterade. Seriously, Snipers hide is over 50,000 members strong, I have NEVER heard of one that had a problem with their remington model 700 that was a result of a bad "OUT OF THE BOX" TRIGGER. People try to modify their triggers, turn their 40-x trigger down to much, dont take care of their gun, ND their gun and when bad shit happens, they say "well, its not my fault. its remingtons fault" THATS BULLSHIT, IT'S THEIR OWN STUPIDITY! </div></div>

Thanks for a well thought out, well articulated opinion on the matter. I appreciate that you went to the trouble to substantiate your emotionally fueled rant with enough factual information to completely put this issue to rest once and for all.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Anytime. I love how you can be so sarcastic and degrading towards someone's <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">OPINION</span></span>. Since when does someone need facts to state their opinion? Furthermore, did you even attempt to confront the root of my statement? The part about how Snipers hide has over <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">50,000 MEMBERS</span> </span>and how <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">no one</span></span> has ever talked about a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">legitimately defective "out of the box trigger" (meaning they haven't adjusted, or messed with it.</span>)</span> No, you just attacked me personally with sarcasm, and hatred. And for what?! Because we have a difference of OPINION. I'm not even gonna attempt to break through your thick head with <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">THE FACTS</span></span>, especially since they've already been stated numerous times. Remington is a good company, I've protected and saved mine and three of my best friends lives with their rifle. And when shit goes down again, <span style="text-decoration: underline">my Remington 700 will be the first thing i grab because I know i can reach out, and fuck something up from a thousand yards away</span>. You really need to quit drinkin' the haterade and pull your head out of your ass. Your move sir.
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Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Augustis said:
Let me ask you this to see if this gets you closer - As an aspiring custom gun builder yourself - what is your primary & ethical objective (first & foremost) when designing a product such as a high powered rifle, for its intended use by the public?</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">i would of course want to make a product that is safe. if i were designing a product for public use, i would also do a pilot line inspection. products that failed the pilot line inspection would be rejected.</span></div></div>

BINGO - My understanding of a “Design Limit” is - The product WILL function as intended by design. The designer bears an ethical responsibility to ensure that the product will function as designed, not malfunction while being used as intended, or in a foreseeable manner that the product is expected to be used by the public.

Ethical Responsibility of a Design Engineer:

If a design problem exists, or is found to exist in the future, that could potentially harm the public by use of that product being used as intended, and in a foreseeable manner - including a manufacturing, or design defect that should allow a given safety related malfunction of the product to occur - and/or that poses a safety risk to the public:

A. Design the problem out.

B. If that cant be done, Protect against the malfunction(s); and

C. If that cant be done, the designer and/or the company has a ethical and moral obligation to warn about the products potential propensity to malfunction which could lead to injury or death, by use of that product in a foreseeable manner - I believe a company further bears the responsibility to recall the product regarding conditions as described above.

1. Prior to Feb. 26, 1982 - Was it foreseeable to the designer, his superiors at Remington - that the public would be FORCED, by design limitations to, release the safety to the *off* safe position before the unloading process could be initiated?

Yes

Prior to 2/26/82 - all the Remington CF bolt action rifles Remington produced before that time was fitted with a bolt lock feature - with the exception of the M/725 - which had a 3 position safety (more on this later). The bolt lock feature prevented the gun handler from raising the bolt handle to unload the arm with the safety in the *on safe* position - but instead, by design, FORCED the gun handler to place the safety in the *off* safe position, before the unloading process could be initiated.

In this instance, the safety was a trap, because Remington WAS in fact aware of the potential for the rifle to fire when the safety was released due to a characteristic inherent of this design.

2. On a bolt action rifle, is it foreseeable the public would at some point operate the bolt, opening or closing, to load & unload the firearm?

Simple answer, yes - Has anyone ever seen, or heard of ANY warning Remington has at any time issued, regarding the rifle firing when releasing the safety, or operating the bolt, opening or closing?

Remington terms these malfunctions - "FSR" (Fires on safety Release) "FBO" (Fire on bolt opening) - "FBC" (Fires on Bolt Closing) - also "JO" Jar-off condition has been noted in Remington failure codes.

Authors Note:
Every CF bolt action rifle Remington has produced since March of 1948 uses a similar design fire control system - with the exception of the model 788.

The model 725, was released to production in 1958, was fitted with a 3 position safety, that allowed the gun handler to unload the arm with the safety in the on safe position, protecting the system from a trigger failure, which would allow for a inadvertent discharge of the rifle during the unloading process.

Further, every CF bolt action rifle that has EVER employed Walkers fire control design, has in fact exhibited similar and persistent forms of malfunctions, as described in the 1947 pilot line inspection document.

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okrebel92</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Anytime. I love how you can be so sarcastic and degrading towards someone's <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">OPINION</span></span>. Since when does someone need facts to state their opinion? Furthermore, did you even attempt to confront the root of my statement? The part about how Snipers hide has over <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">50,000 MEMBERS</span> </span>and how <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">no one</span></span> has ever talked about a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">legitimately defective "out of the box trigger" (meaning they haven't adjusted, or messed with it.</span>)</span> No, you just attacked me personally with sarcasm, and hatred. And for what?! Because we have a difference of OPINION. I'm not even gonna attempt to break through your thick head with <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">THE FACTS</span></span>, especially since they've already been stated numerous times. Remington is a good company, I've protected and saved mine and three of my best friends lives with their rifle. And when shit goes down again, <span style="text-decoration: underline">my Remington 700 will be the first thing i grab because I know i can reach out, and fuck something up from a thousand yards away</span>. You really need to quit drinkin' the haterade and pull your head out of your ass. Your move sir.
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I figured there was something driving your statement emotionally. I am happy to hear that your remington rifles have performed flawlessly for you. That however is far from establishing anything as fact that these cannot fail. There are pages and pages of reading on these triggers, here and elsewhere. There are many facts presented, but they continually get lost in static because of posts similar to yours. I can't imgaine that you have read EVERY post from EVERY single one of the 50,000 members? I have personally seen many threads relating to these triggers malfunctioning, and it has never been established any time that it was due to someone tinkering with the trigger. It was also never established in any of the instances that there was any kind of negligence in maintenance.

Another point, if you read the document posted and quoted several times above, Remington THEMSELVES have had BRAND NEW FACTORY SPEC rifles malfunction. By THEIR OWN ESTIMATES somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 rifles that are in the field today are subject to this issue. (personally think this is a light estimate, and believe that due to the connector design that ANY of these triggers can malfunction un-explicably at any time)

In my opinion, we can move beyond personal opinion and look at the facts, and that will give a clear picture to anyone really open to learning. When our heads are clouded with emotion and brand loyalty, I think we can justify away a lot of things...

Finally, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!! I appologize for my sarcasm in my prior post.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okrebel92</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've protected and saved mine and three of my best friends lives with their rifle. And when shit goes down again, <span style="text-decoration: underline">my Remington 700 will be the first thing i grab because I know i can reach out, and fuck something up from a thousand yards away</span>. You really need to quit drinkin' the haterade and pull your head out of your ass. Your move sir.
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Damn I love the internet and television!!!! Between the two they have created more 'snipers' capable of shooting 1000yds then our fine US Forces combined since their existence. The internet has also created more World Class tough guys then all street gangs combined. America, what a country!!!!!

Now get back to your books grasshoppa, don't you have a test on Monday??? You have educated all of us 50,000+ members with your wisdom! Your mission is done here! Thank You for your contribution to the World Wide Web!
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

At the end of the day, I don't understand how anyone can say these rifles don't or can't fire off safe, or any of the other conditions that can cause them to fire WITHOUT pulling the trigger. The main reason I am continually confused by this, is because Remington themselves have said they can do it. I have not seen anything Remington issued state otherwise. I like remington rifles, and have always preferred them on precision builds over Savage and any other options. I have since moved to custom actions, but they are all the Remington 700 footprint. I am not a hater, I just think awareness needs to be raised so people can make an EDUCATED decision on whether to replace or upgrade their trigger on their rifles.

Here is my little story that set me on the path to opening my mind about the trigger issue:

Two years ago, my wife and 2 boys head out to the field to do some deer hunting. We get to our stand to wait for sundown. We tell our son to load the rifle and put it on safe. This is a rifle that has been in the family a long time, my wife has shot countless animals with it. It is a rifle that will be handed down hopefully for many years to come. At any rate, we wait it out, and see a doe come out catches wind and moves away, the boy is inexperienced and doesn't get a shot off. So we make sure the safety is on, wait until dark, and head back out toward the car. While still in the field before we get to the car, we tell our boy to unload the rifle. I am a little ways behind, and hear my wife tell him to take the safety off. I say Wait, don't take the safety off. Unload the rifle without taking it off. My wife says, you can't with this one. I take the rifle and check, sure enough this 700 has a bolt lock on it. So, I say OK, hand the rifle back to my boy, and tell him to make sure it is pointed at the ground a few feet away, and take the safety off. He does as we say, both my wife and I are standing there, his finger is not even close to the trigger. As he flipped the safety forward, the rifle discharged and sent a bullet 15 feet away into the soft dirt.

Now there are a few things I may have done wrong, and some things I did right, but under no circumstances should that rifle have fired when the safety was released like that. Immediately afterwards, we unload the rifle and I try to see if the fire off safe condition is consistent.. it is not. I couldn't duplicate the condition afterwards.

This isn't a horror story, and one of a minor victory in firearms handling, but the thought still haunts me. What if I had allowed my boy to go out with his older brother? After seeing a deer would he have had the cognitive ability to maintain perfect safety. What if that rifle belonged to the guys across the parking lot, and they decided to unload it when they got back to the truck? What if that rifle happened to belong to one of my kids friends, and they aren't paying attention at that moment? Lots of what ifs, and though there was no tragedy that day, it opened my mind to listening and investigating what could be

There's my emotional investment
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okrebel92</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've protected and saved mine and three of my best friends lives with their rifle. And when shit goes down again, <span style="text-decoration: underline">my Remington 700 will be the first thing i grab because I know i can reach out, and fuck something up from a thousand yards away</span>. You really need to quit drinkin' the haterade and pull your head out of your ass. Your move sir.
cool.gif
</div></div>

Damn I love the internet and television!!!! Between the two they have created more 'snipers' capable of shooting 1000yds then our fine US Forces combined since their existence. The internet has also created more World Class tough guys then all street gangs combined. America, what a country!!!!!

Now get back to your books grasshoppa, don't you have a test on Monday??? You have educated all of us 50,000+ members with your wisdom! Your mission is done here! Thank You for your contribution to the World Wide Web! </div></div>

Lol you dont even know me. I'm not claiming to be a "sniper" or a world class tough guy. And I didn't share my experience to show how tough i am. It's only by grace of god that the four of us are alive. Furthermore, since when does being able to hit an 18 inch IPSC target at 1000 yards make you sniper? Again, the personal attacks are a great contribution to the thread.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I raised this question in another thread here - similar to this one (Link Below), & nobody seems to have replied thus far??? With that, I thought I would raise the same question in this thread to see if anyone can, or will, attempt to offer an explanation to this effect -

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2443841&page=3

If the trigger connector feature is so AWESOME, why did not ONE other manufacturer EVER adopt this feature - aftermarket or otherwise?

The original patent issued for this fire control design, dated July 11, 1950, only protected the novelty of the feature for 17 years total.

Why no takers then - think about that for a minute?

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I thought I would throw this 1994 Business Week Article out here as another information resource, maybe to further the discussion? The documents described in the article are accurate - I can account to this fact because I have potentially seen all of them that are listed personally.

Note the "NBAR Program" design goals referenced in this article.


http://www.businessweek.com/archives/1994/b337363.arc.htm

BusinessWeek: May 23, 1994



Legal Affairs

REMINGTON FACES A MISFIRING SQUAD

On Dec. 29, 1989, Glenn W. Collins was ready for a day of deer and wild-boar hunting in Eagle Pass, Tex. But while he was unloading his rifle after running into bad weather, it accidentally discharged, wounding him in the foot. That afternoon, the 53-year-old Amoco Corp. drilling supervisor had to have his foot amputated.

Collins claimed that the gun, Remington Arms Co.'s Model 700 bolt-action rifle, had gone off without his ever touching the trigger. And on May 7, he persuaded a Texas jury it had: After a six-week trial, Remington was ordered to pay Collins $17 million--$15 million of it in punitive damages. "I think what the jury was telling Remington and all gun manufacturers is that if you have a defective or unsafe product, you'd better do something about it," says Collins.

The Wilmington (Del.) gunmaker hasn't decided whether to appeal the verdict. But company spokesman William Wohl says Remington flatly denies that the Model 700--one of the top-selling hunting rifles in the U.S.--is faulty in any way. "We have believed in the past and continue to believe today that the Model 700 is one of the finest bolt-action rifles manufactured," says Wohl. "We see the product as a safe and reliable sporting firearm."

STORMY OUTLOOK. Remington maintains that the accidents stem from users' mistakes, not from product defects--a defense it used in the Collins' case. "When a gun goes off, the first thing people say is: 'It's not my fault,'" argues Kenneth Soucy, who is in charge of research and development at Remington. "Usually, we find that people have been messing around with the fire control. They get in there and screw things up."

Remington has done pretty well with that argument, winning 8 out of 12 jury trials since 1981. In a further 18 known suits settled since 1981, Remington has negotiated modest payouts--some as little as $5,000, say plaintiff lawyers. But the Collins case is the first time a jury saw internal Remington documents allegedly showing that the company had developed a safer design yet chose not to market it. "The documents established that Remington has had a design for at least a dozen years that eliminates the heart of the problem," says Richard C. Miller, a lawyer in Springfield, Mo., who represents Collins and 17 other plaintiffs in past and present suits against Remington involving its Model 700. "This implies that they knew something was wrong with the existing fire-control system."

Now, with the new documents and with 11 pending suits similarly alleging inadvertent firings of the Model 700, Remington's legal troubles could worsen. Plaintiff lawyers say more cases will be filed against Remington later this year, and pressure is mounting from consumers and Congress for more controls on firearms. Critics hope these actions, taken together, will compel Remington to consider modifying its rifle free of charge or recalling it if it can't conclusively demonstrate its safety.

That's a tall order for the nation's largest seller of shotguns and rifles. Four deaths have been linked to alleged malfunctions of the Model 700, in addition to dozens of injuries, court records show. Furthermore, some 1,400 written customer complaints have been lodged with the company over the past 16 years concerning the Model 700--many of which assert the rifle went off without the trigger being pulled. Remington still insists shooter errors are the problem. "If you're following the rules of safe gun handling...people won't get hurt," says Remington's Wohl.

In 1989, however, Miller discovered a program started in 1981 whose purpose, he says, was to design a safer bolt action rifle, thus contradicting Remington's repeated court statements that the Model 700 is flawless. The company argued that records pertaining to this new bolt-action rifle (NBAR) program were proprietary and unrelated to the Model 700. But more than 20 judges have ruled otherwise, forcing Remington to give up the documents. "The NBAR program had as its goal improvement of the defective fire control on the Model 700," wrote Texas Supreme Court Justice Lloyd Doggett in December, 1992. "[The documents] provide evidence of great significance...as to Remington's knowledge of defects and of its ability to implement safer alternative designs."

The company has good reason to defend its popular product: More than 100,000 Model 700 rifles are sold annually, at an average cost of $500. That accounts for an estimated $58 million of the company's $370 million in annual revenues. Today, nearly 3 million such rifles in 21 different calibers are in consumers' hands.

In addition to the NBAR evidence, internal corporate documents first disclosed in the Collins case show Remington may have known as early as 1975 that its rifle could accidentally discharge. That's when the company first began investigating customer and retailer complaints about malfunctions, according to Remington records. In a Dec. 8, 1987, letter, Nina Dula of Lenoir, N.C., complained that a rifle in the front seat of a Jeep discharged when a neighbor kicked a tire. She didn't report the accident to the company until the rifle fired inadvertently a second time. "In both instances, the trigger was never touched," wrote Dula.

Remington investigated Dula's complaint and determined the rifle functioned properly. The company wrote to Dula on Jan. 8, 1988: "The only manner in which the rifle could be made to fire was with the safety off and the trigger pulled." In 52 other responses to customer complaints BUSINESS WEEK reviewed, Remington either said it "cannot duplicate customer complaint" or concluded the owner unknowingly pulled the trigger.

In a 1979 internal memo, however, Remington's product-safety subcommittee stated that, based on tests of returned rifles, 1% of the 2 million pre-1975 Model 700s could be "tricked" into firing. The panel considered a recall but concluded the discharges were "more associated with abnormal use or misuse of the product rather than indication of a defective product," according to the memo. Instead, the subcommittee recommended issuing a statement to customers on proper gun handling. "The recall would have to gather 2 million guns just to find 20,000 that are susceptible to this condition," wrote the panel, noting "a large percentage of competitor's models can be tricked."

Eighteen months later, Fred Martin, a Remington field-service specialist, urged officials to make changes in newly manufactured rifles. His estimated cost: 32 a gun. "I feel we should not pass up this opportunity to improve our fire control," Martin wrote in a 1981 internal memo that was first used as evidence against Remington in the Collins case.

TRIGGER COMPLACENT. Remington did make one modification in 1982: The company eliminated the bolt lock, which had required the shooter to take the safety off to load and unload the rifle. But Remington says the change wasn't for safety's sake. "The removal of the bolt lock in 1982 was due to customer preference. This was not at all related to a safety issue," says Soucy. Still, the adjustment decreased reports of accidents.

Remington did not address what some experts say is the gun's most serious defect: an unreliable trigger connector. They say this causes the rifle to fire when the safety is released or when the bolt is opened or closed. "No other manufacturer utilizes a resiliently mounted trigger connector of this type," says Tom Butters, a gun expert in Houston who has testified against Remington. "Other trigger designs are much less likely to be involved in a malfunction."

Remington disputes Butters' assessment and says its trigger design is entirely safe and one of the most attractive features of the Model 700. "The Model 700 is one of the real pillars of this design," says Soucy. "The trigger is light in pull. You can check with most gun writers and find that this feature makes the gun one of the most desirable."

Firearms are one of the few consumer products for which regulators do not have authority to set design and safety standards--even though guns cause more accidental deaths than any other consumer product. Firearms accounted for 1,416 such fatalities in 1990, according to the National Safety Council, a nonprofit group in Itasca, Ill. By contrast, deaths from all other sports equipment or recreational activities totaled 1,220, according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Gun manufacturers and the National Rifle Assn. are opposed to current efforts toward tighter regulation. But consumer activists hope the public's growing concern over guns will compel lawmakers to adopt stricter standards. For now, consumers' only recourse is a legal one--and it looks like they plan to use it.

Loren Berger in Washington
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgtcarroll</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got an idea...don't buy one. More for me. </div></div>

Good thing for you then, I have gravitated to custom built rifles, built on the Remington platform in certain instances - because of the inherent strengths that exist in other areas of the design. At the distances I shoot at, rifles are not very interesting to me anymore, unless they are EXTREMELY accurate. Chances are you would not know the difference at this point, would you?

Another Newb trying to rack up a post or two - with a one liner jab... Kinda reminds me of a mouse that runs out from its hole, grabs a crumb, then runs back into its hiding place thinking it has really accomplished something - LMAO!!

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnpatterson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello,

I do web work for Remington and wanted to make sure you are aware of our response to this. Check out http://www.remington700.tv

Hope this clears up any confusion out there.

Best,
Colleen </div></div>

Hey Colleen,

I have been thinking about your comment for some time...

I find it interesting that Freedom Group disclosed in their SEC filling that they paid "2.2 million dollars in legal fees" to defend against the CNBC Piece.... I bet there is no bias on your part for your hand in all of this, is there? -- Would it be to much to ask how much you got paid?

I have reason to believe more facts ---surrounding this issue --- may be surfacing in the not so distant future. If you doubt this fact, call Dale or Anne, they should confirm this fact!

Best, Aug
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

There is nothing wrong with the design of the Remington 700 trigger. These accidental discharges are a matter of improper adjustment, whether it be from the factory or the user or a gunsmith.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: my human host</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is nothing wrong with the design of the Remington 700 trigger.</div></div>Rumor is: Not according to Remington.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I would also add a couple of experiences I've had with friends that have had their Remingtons go off "without ever touching the trigger.

In both cases I removed the scopes from the rifles and proceeded to beat the ever living shit out of them with the safety on, off, and everything in between. I cycled them fast and slow. Loaded with dummy rounds and without. Flipped the safety back and for many, many times. Never could get the firing pin to fall.

So, what am I driving at? Lots of people have a hard time keeping their fingers away from the trigger. For every one of these claims against Remington that is legit, how many more of them are a farce?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

I generally don't participate in many discussions, but this is one that I've had some personal experience with - as owner of a number of M700s, and as one who's had some "odd" experiences with one of them.

One of those odd experiences occurred with a pre-1982 rifle, but was one I almost immediately concluded, to the best of my 12-year-old analytical processes, was caused by my finger being inside the trigger guard when I released the safety. Notes made to self that day: 1) don't do that again, 2) good thing it was pointed in a safe direction

The second experience was with the same rifle, but a different person. I wasn't present. Although I suspect the same factors were in play, I can't rule out a malfunction of some sort. Once again though, it was fortunately pointed in a safe direction.

That rifle received the bolt lock modification later and has never had a malfunction or suspected malfunction since. Four other M700s have never had a malfunction.

I've also been aware as a reviewer of accidental fatalities caused by other firearms, notably, two M4s, one Kalashnikov, and one Makarov - CONUS and in-theater. In each of those cases, the muzzle reference sensors between the operators' ears failed. I've also been on ranges where signs existed that those nearby were handling firearms in a manner symptomatic with those accidents and was thereby obligated to loudly eject military personnel from military ranges (pre-retirement), report users to the RO on-site on civilian ranges, or either correct the behavior myself or depart those ranges when no RO was present.

Having seen both, I'm quite confident saying that I've seen far more idiots handling firearms than I've seen malfunctions with a Remington trigger. I can control where my Remington's muzzle is pointed, I can't control the idiots all the time. Probably not surprisingly, I place exponentially less trust in the idiots than I do my Remington rifles.

I'm not offering an excuse for Remington, but there isn't a single one of us who should be relying on ANY mechanical safety. Further, ALL of us should be acutely aware of where our rifle/pistol/shotgun's muzzle is oriented at all times.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Anyone with a Pacer Account Please Review-

Quinonez - Case 2:11-cv-02319-NVW - Doc #30

In The

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

Guillermo Quinonez and Delma Quinonez

v.

Remington Arms Company, LLC
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

It amazes me time and again how lack of commonsense can destroy lives. As others have stated time and again, never point a hot weapon at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy.

Without stupid people trial lawyers would be out of business.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rkaires</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It amazes me time and again how lack of commonsense can destroy lives. As others have stated time and again, never point a hot weapon at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy.

Without stupid people trial lawyers would be out of business. </div></div>

Stupid people point guns at others and shoot them

Remington has admitted to making faulty rifles which can go off unexpectedly when pointed in ANY direction

Therefore, Remington is off the hook, because if a person is shot with a Remington rifle, stupid must have been involved.

This is exactly what the manufacturer of something that is faulty in design would want you to conclude, because whatever happens, they are not responsible. Logic fail.

I, frankly, see no connection between the two circumstances. Either Remington makes a safe, reliable rifle... or they don't. And if they don't, they should notify their customer base and make it right. Period. The argument of "safe weapons handling" is a red herring.

Funny how context muddles with our ability to reason logically and unemotionally. If this were an automobile company, there would be an uproar. But because it's a gun company, gun enthusiasts seemingly cannot be objective.

John
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

It would appear the point of this exercise may be education of the facts - Hmmmm.... what an interesting concept?




cid:[email protected]



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

March 8, 2011



Contact: Amy Radon at (510) 622-8207 or [email protected]

Leslie Bailey at (510) 622-8203 or [email protected]

Deborah Mathis at (202) 861-5246 or [email protected]



PUBLIC JUSTICE ASKS MONTANA COURT TO UNSEAL LONG-SECRET

CASE DOCUMENTS ABOUT DANGEROUS REMINGTON RIFLE

Much of Record Revealed for First Time after Public Justice Intervenes



Now that a federal judge has unsealed most of the court file in a 1991 lawsuit against Remington Rifle Company, a Montana father whose young son was killed by a malfunctioning Remington rifle is asking the court to open the remainder of the file to the public.



Public Justice filed a motion Thursday on behalf of Richard Barber, whose nine-year-old son, Gus, was killed in 2000 when the family’s Remington Model 700 rifle accidentally discharged without the trigger being pulled. Barber wants public access to all of the documents from Aleksich v. Remington, a lawsuit filed two decades ago after 13-year-old Brock Aleksich lifted the safety on his Model 700 and the gun went off, shooting Brock’s 14-year-old brother, Brent, in both legs.



The Aleksich case settled in 1995, and the entire record was sealed until last week, when Judge Richard Cebull ruled that there was “no reason for sealing the entire case” and made most of the documents available to the public for the first time. The ruling to unseal the court file was made shortly after the court, at Public Justice’s urging, allowed Barber to intervene into the sealed case in order to seek public access to the court filings.



In its order granting Barber permission to intervene, the court emphasized that the “public right to access court exists for cases decided a hundred years ago as surely as it does for lawsuits now,” and that Remington – which opposed Barber’s involvement – had failed to show how intervention would harm the company.



Barber first learned of the Aleksich case after his son’s death, and also discovered that the Model 700 had been responsible for scores of other injuries and deaths and thousands of documented customer complaints.



Among the now-unsealed documents is a brief detailing purported proof that high-level Remington employees not only knew about the defects that caused Gus Barber’s death and Brent Aleksich’s injuries, but that the company had known about them since before it started producing the Model 700 in the 1950s. Still, as recently as 2010, Remington told CNBC that its Model 700 rifles have been safe and “free of any defect” since they were first produced.



“We are thrilled that Judge Cebull revisited the protective orders in this case and found that there was no reason for continued secrecy,” said Public Justice’s Goldberg Attorney Amy Radon, co-lead counsel for Barber. “It is now our hope that Judge Cebull will take the final step of unsealing the remaining Aleksich court filings so that the public has access to the whole picture of what happened in this case.”



The remaining sealed records in Aleksich are believed to include evidence that Remington hid its knowledge of the defective trigger mechanism from the court, the Aleksich family, and the public for decades.



Rich Miller, the attorney who represented both the Aleksich family and Barber in their lawsuits against Remington, dedicated his career to exposing the truth about the Remington rifles. An active member of the Public Justice Foundation’s Board of Directors, Miller died in 2006.



Barber is now determined to honor Miller’s legacy and unveil the truth, case by case.



“There is no doubt in my mind that secrecy kills,” said Barber. “I want the public to finally see for itself the evidence that clearly establishes that Remington has continued selling this defective rifle for years even though it was well aware of the inherent risks to the public. Knowledge of the facts is the only way to break this cycle and finally permit people to take responsibility for their own personal safety and that of their friends and family.”



In addition to Radon, Public Justice’s legal team includes Staff Attorney Leslie Bailey, Public Justice Foundation Board of Directors Member Bill Rossbach of Missoula, Mont., and Richard Ramler of Belgrade, Mont.



###



Public Justice is a national public interest law firm that fights injustice and holds corporate and government wrongdoers accountable. See our website at http://www.publicjustice.net.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rkaires</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It amazes me time and again how lack of commonsense can destroy lives. As others have stated time and again, never point a hot weapon at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy.

Without stupid people trial lawyers would be out of business. </div></div>

Stupid people point guns at others and shoot them

Remington has admitted to making faulty rifles which can go off unexpectedly when pointed in ANY direction

Therefore, Remington is off the hook, because if a person is shot with a Remington rifle, stupid must have been involved.

This is exactly what the manufacturer of something that is faulty in design would want you to conclude, because whatever happens, they are not responsible. Logic fail.

I, frankly, see no connection between the two circumstances. Either Remington makes a safe, reliable rifle... or they don't. And if they don't, they should notify their customer base and make it right. Period. The argument of "safe weapons handling" is a red herring.

Funny how context muddles with our ability to reason logically and unemotionally. If this were an automobile company, there would be an uproar. But because it's a gun company, gun enthusiasts seemingly cannot be objective.

John </div></div>

The fact that stupid people will do stupid things shouldn't release Remington from their responsibility. The comment was a generalization of how ignorant some can be regarding other peoples safety. Any manufacturer should make a conscious effort to provide it's customers with safe equipment but in this world nothing is idiot proof.

Bob
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

Since the "Ten Commandments" of firearm safety keeps coming up, I thought I would throw this out there for consideration

A google search reveals:

The Ten Commandments are a listing of important behavioral rules (in the Old Testament)

In no particular order:

You shall have no other gods before or besides me.

Do not make idols of any kind, whether in the shape of birds or animals or fish.” –
Maybe this should be made to include Money or Rifles?

You shall not commit murder. –

See mens rea of the rules of criminal procedure – including strict liability for same

“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. –

In other words, you should not lie.
Personal Note: I am of the opinion, if someone will lie to you, they will steal from you. Further, I have no use for a liar, OR a thief.

Food for thought?

Disclaimer: while in the context here, These are simply good rules to live by, of which this Country was founded on - I do not consider these simple example of rules (that some of us may live by) from a religious perspective, in the context of this discussion.

The "Ten Commandments" of firearm safety that keeps being pointed out here, creates a distinct impression that fails to take into account, that in the real world Shit happens.

A) In this context, what question we are left with is- is it "foreseeable" to Remington that their rifles may, could, or will be pointed in a direction that could potentially cause, or lead to injury or death?

B) Does the public have, or should have, a reasonable expectation that a product (any product) should perform as expected in the normal intended use of said product?

Here included above are the Original Ten Commandments, of these, I have to wonder how many Remington has violated?

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The argument of "safe weapons handling" is a red herring.</div></div>

With all due respect, I disagree. "Safe weapons handling" is NEVER a "red herring." To marginalize the responsiblity of the operator only contributes to the hazard to self and to others and promotes litigious remedy to otherwise preventable tragedy.

While unfortunate, the outcomes to my experiences and the experiences of this family are very different because, even at 12 years old, I very deliberately applied a very basic rule in the handling of that rifle. They did not. Had they done so, they'd still have had a beef with Remington, but they'd still have their son among them today.

Me? I sent my rifle to the 'smith and had it fixed. I still pay attention to where I point it, just as I do every other firearm I own. And I demand the same of those around me - and particularly of those who I suspect believe that safe firearms handling is ultimately the manufacturer's responsibility.
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Homers Brother</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The argument of "safe weapons handling" is a red herring.</div></div>

With all due respect, I disagree. "Safe weapons handling" is NEVER a "red herring." </div></div>

When a corporation uses it to deflect attention from its negligence it is indeed a red herring, whether you agree or not. "Safe handling" should not have to negate unsafe design.

John
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Remington has admitted to making faulty rifles which can go off unexpectedly when pointed in ANY direction </div></div>

where/when did this happen?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
where/when did this happen? </div></div>

Sorry, the first two sentences should have had "if" at the beginning... I was making a hypothetical "if/then" argument to point out the flawed logic. This was not meant to be statement of fact any more than "Stupid people point guns at others and shoot them", simply a basis for pointing out the flawed logic that gets applied to this whole discussion. I guess the irony was a little too subtle.

One could argue that, between Walker's testimony and the redesign that it is self-evident, but court cases are not won on circumstantial evidence. It would appear, however, that Aug's reference above though, is a major step in proving just that:

"Among the now-unsealed documents is a brief detailing purported proof that high-level Remington employees not only knew about the defects that caused Gus Barber’s death and Brent Aleksich’s injuries, but that the company had known about them since before it started producing the Model 700 in the 1950s."

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

John



 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if any? Aug </div></div>

I own a number of handguns, serving a variety of purposes from plinking to CC. I don't feel obligated to respond beyond that, for the same reason I prefer not to post photos or provide specific descriptions of my firearms around the internet. I've been a "gun owner" for nigh onto forty years now.

Is there an assumption in the works here?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Homers Brother</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if any? Aug </div></div>


Is there an assumption in the works here?



</div></div>

Yes there is!

IF you carry a hand gun, how do you do so with pointing it at your leg, butt,foot, or any other body part that comes to mind during the usual course of carrying a loaded pistol - assuming you carry one loaded in the chamber? Maybe I am missing something here?

If you carry one in the chamber, then I am forced to assume that you are relying on some form of "mechanical device" (a safety - passive or otherwise) to protect the said pistol from discharging when you do not intend for it to do so?

I would then be further forced to assume, that you would be pretty upset, if, in the event said pistol spontaneously discharged "without trigger contact" injuring yourself, or killing another bystander... say a family member -

and maybe even further upset to learn that almost a hundred other people had experienced a strikingly similar event, which resulted in the injury and/or death - AND if that was not enough, to learn (after the fact) the company that manufactured the said pistol has received upwards of 10,000 customer complaints involving the same, or similar form of malfunction, but chose to ignore and/or deny this fact.

This kind of sums up my "assumptions" in this regard. Now you can tell me the faults in this logic if you want to?

Aug ><>
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Homers Brother</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Augustis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if any? Aug </div></div>


Is there an assumption in the works here?



</div></div>

Yes there is!

IF you carry a hand gun, how do you do so with pointing it at your leg, butt,foot, or any other body part that comes to mind during the usual course of carrying a loaded pistol - assuming you carry one loaded in the chamber? Maybe I am missing something here?

If you carry one in the chamber, then I am forced to assume that you are relying on some form of "mechanical device" (a safety - passive or otherwise) to protect the said pistol from discharging when you do not intend for it to do so?

I would then be further forced to assume, that you would be pretty upset, if, in the event said pistol spontaneously discharged "without trigger contact" injuring yourself, or killing another bystander... say a family member -

and maybe even further upset to learn that almost a hundred other people had experienced a strikingly similar event, which resulted in the injury and/or death - AND if that was not enough, to learn (after the fact) the company that manufactured the said pistol has received upwards of 10,000 customer complaints involving the same, or similar form of malfunction, but chose to ignore and/or deny this fact.

This kind of sums up my "assumptions" in this regard. Now you can tell me the faults in this logic if you want to?

Aug ><> </div></div>

Augustis brings up a fine point...

I carry concealed every day and trust the mechanical safeties in my pistol to WORK and not blow a hole through my leg. So tell me why it is unreasonable to expect the same level of reliability out of a rifle?

Here is another one for you to think about. When a LEO sniper/marksman is targeting a potential suspect, it is expected that the safety to work and the rifle not to fire unless the TRIGGER is pulled. So what if the officer disengages the safety and the rifle fires? Is it the OFFICER'S fault because he had the rifle pointed at the suspect's direction?

Please explain to me why it is unreasonable for me to expect the safeties to WORK on my firearms?
 
Re: Remington accused of 700 series dangerous flaws

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: treebasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I carry concealed every day and trust the mechanical safeties in my pistol to WORK ... </div></div>

That's a fair point. And just how many safeties DOES your carry weapon have? And compare that to your bolt gun? Since you place such trust in your weapon's mechanical safeties, I can assume then that you don't hesitate buckling into a vehicle with it in a holster? Those odd jobs where it might snag on something aren't a worry either? No need to worry about retention in a holster, right? Bang it around, bump it, it has redundant safeties after all.

<edit> I see that I left this hanging to some degree and with a bit of sarcasm that I don't want to be confusing. To address Augustis' question, I don't believe in CC without a round chambered. And yes, to some degree I probably do have to "trust" the redundant mechanical safeties of the weapons I do carry. Their mere presence doesn't excuse me from handling the weapon safely. I have actually checked my holstered weapons to ensure they're not threatening some part of my anatomy, and I won't leave it holstered when I'm sitting, partially for comfort, but primarily because it COULD be pointing at YOU while we're having a cup of coffee. When I can't carry safely, I generally won't carry.

It's been my experience that most NDs with handguns (the M9, in particular) occur at or some time after the weapon is "cleared." "I don't know how it fired, I cleared it and then took the magazine out." Oops. A simple magazine cutoff safety would prevent most M9 NDs. Yet, Beretta continues to manufacture them without. Is that negligence? Personally, I like the idea that I can fire a round without a magazine in the weapon. Apparently a few others like that feature as well?

<end edit>

Once again, I'm not making excuses for Remington. Remington fixed my rifle at no cost. Some of you guys are obviously conditioned at this point to believe that anyone who doesn't specifically agree with you that this is Remington's fault is siding with Remington. I just don't happen to agree that as handlers of firearms, we don't have an implied responsibility for their safe use.

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2011/12/28/news/19local_12-28-11.txt

I'm guessing that you'll want to go after this manufacturer, too? Good thing everyone here in Wyoming can carry concealed now. I just wish they'd buy "safer" weapons. I'd actually prefer they just handle them responsibly.

I'm not certain there's much point in continuing this exchange. Your collective minds are closed to there being any responsibility here beyond Remington's. I'm going to focus instead on going to the range in the morning. Yes, there will be at least one M700 with me. I'll do the best I can, but it may go off anyway. You should probably consider staying at home.