Replacement for 8208 XBR IN AR-15 ?

[MJF]

I have a load for my AR with 8208 and 77gn SMKs. I have not been able to find 8208 anywhere. Have you found a decent replacement powder? I have heard Winchester StaBall is pretty good. Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Mike

 

[Lthrt]

Check out this series. There’s 3-4 he likes, one of which is Alliant Power Pro Varmint But it hasn’t been in stock anywhere for the past year. maybe 2520 Or Tac?

 

[supercorndogs]

Varget RL15 works well, Tac,

 

[Magixx]

Winchester StaBall powder is a good replacement for Hodgdon 8208 powder for loading 77-grain SMK bullets. Other good options for replacing 8208 include Varget, CFE223, and Ramshot TAC.

 

[morning would]

I have a load for my AR with 8208 and 77gn SMKs. I have not been able to find 8208 anywhere. Have you found a decent replacement powder? I have heard Winchester StaBall is pretty good. Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Mike

24.6 grains of N140, 24.2 -24.6 grains of TAC or 22 grains of Benchmark all work very well for me.

 

[Scttschnd]

Do Not Forget H4895 !! , couple tenths of a grain more than 8208 and it works great. Just have to find it, TAC seems to be available now, N135/N140, Varget, the afore mentioned are all solid. Could try Shooters World Precision or Match too.

 

[Engine 22]

I have a load for my AR with 8208 and 77gn SMKs. I have not been able to find 8208 anywhere. Have you found a decent replacement powder? I have heard Winchester StaBall is pretty good. Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Mike

Go to Hodgdon's reloading data center, it will have the powders that work for the bullet weight you enter. As mentioned, Winchester StaBALL Match or 6.5, Ramshot TAC, Varget are all good options.

www.hodgdon.com

 

[AllenOne1]

I had pretty good luck with CFE223

 

[DairyDictator]

Do Not Forget H4895 !! , couple tenths of a grain more than 8208 and it works great. Just have to find it, TAC seems to be available now, N135/N140, Varget, the afore mentioned are all solid. Could try Shooters World Precision or Match too.

H4895 is even more rare than 8208 in my experience

 

[MarshallDodge]

Before 8208, I shot a lot of TAC and RL15 behind the heavy bullets with success. A good friend swears by CFE223 for 77s.

 

[nn8734]

AA2520

 

[n2ishun]

BLC-2
Used it for decades, never lets me down.
I see it in stock here and there too.

 

[MJF]

Thank you for the replies. My local joint had an eight pounder of StaBall the other day. I'll swing buy tomorrow and see if it is still there. They might have Tac, they have a shelf of Ramshot.

 

[nn8734]

Thank you for the replies. My local joint had an eight pounder of StaBall the other day. I'll swing buy tomorrow and see if it is still there. They might have Tac, they have a shelf of Ramshot.

TAC is fine, I ran it for years however it needs to be on the ragged edge of pressure to group and if you’re just on the wrong side it will let you know. AA2520 is less temp sensitive, gives me about 40 fps more mv in my mk12 and further away from pressure. Precision potential is the same as TAC. I moved to AA2520 in 2019 and never went back.

25g AA2520, Rem 7-1/2srp, LC 1x fired case, 77smk.

 

[bobke]

AR Comp is another option if you can secure a supply. Use 22+ gr with 75gr Hornady BTHP with 16”WOA and 18” Noveske. Accurate, pretty temp stable and good SD/ES numbers.

 

[hellzna]

TAC is fine, I ran it for years however it needs to be on the ragged edge of pressure to group and if you’re just on the wrong side it will let you know. AA2520 is less temp sensitive, gives me about 40 fps more mv in my mk12 and further away from pressure. Precision potential is the same as TAC. I moved to AA2520 in 2019 and never went back.

25g AA2520, Rem 7-1/2srp, LC 1x fired case, 77smk.

What kinds of velocity are you getting here with 2520?

 

[n2ishun]

A picture is worth ?
Limited via barrel length etc.....eh, it's what they had.
Oh, this is .223 and not 5.56.....not that it matters all that much, it's good to note.

I've also had reasonable results with 4227 and believe it or not...H110.
Seems I'd have to dig out some of my older load data books for the specifics as 223/556 are no longer listed for those powders on the website.
They used to be.....I hate that shit, just leave the data available......amirite ?

 

[MK20]

I have a load for my AR with 8208 and 77gn SMKs. I have not been able to find 8208 anywhere. Have you found a decent replacement powder? I have heard Winchester StaBall is pretty good. Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Mike

My testing in the Staball Match thread shows that Match beats 8208 and is a better replacement.

 

[towerofpower93]

Go to Hodgdon's reloading data center, it will have the powders that work for the bullet weight you enter. As mentioned, Winchester StaBALL Match or 6.5, Ramshot TAC, Varget are all good options.

www.hodgdon.com

The StaBall Match appears to be delivering, based on the couple of threads here (like this one), but StaBall 6.5 apparently didn't live up to potential, again, based on threads and input on this forum. It works great in my 6.5C AR10, but folks who tried it with 77s in .223 said it couldn't get the velocity or accuracy of the go-to powders like 8208, TAC, etc.

Just something to keep in mind

 

[ClamHammerXpress]

A picture is worth ?
Limited via barrel length etc.....eh, it's what they had.
Oh, this is .223 and not 5.56.....not that it matters all that much, it's good to note.

View attachment 8113903


I've also had reasonable results with 4227 and believe it or not...H110.
Seems I'd have to dig out some of my older load data books for the specifics as 223/556 are no longer listed for those powders on the website.
They used to be.....I hate that shit, just leave the data available......amirite ?

Amen Hate it and don’t begin to understand it, if it was established well enough to publish then why remove it?! From what I’ve seen there’s no attempt to archive that data either..at least not for the public

 

[MJF]

My testing in the Staball Match thread shows that Match beats 8208 and is a better replacement.

Lots of great information in that thread, thank you. I'll grab the eight pounder of StaBall at lunch time and start developing a load.

 

[MJF]

Amen Hate it and don’t begin to understand it, if it was established well enough to publish then why remove it?! From what I’ve seen there’s no attempt to archive that data either..at least not for the public

I have the Hodgdon #26 loading manual. It has .45 Colt loads with a giant dose of H110. I've clocked my 300 gn XTP loads at 1350 fps out of a Blackhawk! Those loads are no longer listed anywhere.

 

[nn8734]

What kinds of velocity are you getting here with 2520?

2810 w/ Mk12 (Douglas SS spr 18” bbl)
2450 w/carbine (14.5” DD CL BBL, gov profile)

 

[Scttschnd]

I am liking the sound of Staball Match comparisons to 8208. XBR has always been great to me in the service rifle so seeing the new Stabll match gives hope. Agree Staball 6.5 is for heavier 6.5 mm projectiles and I would not entertain it as a 223 powder.

H49895 has been a unicorn powder the past year or more like 8208, once found snap it up.

Also Shooters World Match and Precision are coming back and see one is a Varget like alternative by many posters out there. They were very cost friendly but like all powders now they are priced up there too.

 

[MJF]

Someone grabbed the eight pounder of Staball, and that was the last of it at the local joint. I wound up placing an order with Graffs.

 

[semperfireloading]

Replacing 8208 you basically have ~4 options that put you "close" to it, but there is no powder with "same" load data, its either slightly faster or slow.
Slower first
N140 without question can replace 8208. You will need about ~0.7 grains more w/77 grain to equal FPS. This is best choice because it will be similar pressure to 8208 producing similar velocity and is the ONLY one on this list, like this.
Faster now:
N135 can replace and is good choice. You will need about ~0.2 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS (this will be higher pressure than 8208)
H4895 can replace 8208 and is probably closest in load data. You will need about ~0.1-0.2 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS (this will be higher pressure than 8208)
AR Comp is reasonable to replace it with. You will need about ~.07 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS.

Benchmark is not great over max SAAMI loads, so rule that out. It basically has same load data as N135 or H4895, or VERY close.

Varget and Precision Rifle, I would not pick to replace 8208. No way. They are not going to give you similar velocity without being way over pressure, and also, they have too much case fill, and are poor choices, if you want ~2750 FPS w/77 grain bullet. Do not buy these. StabALL Match will need around 25.2 grains to match 8208 at around 23.3 grains or so. Ballpark. YOu will be disappointed with StaBALL Match, is I do not believe it will give you the accuracy 8208 or the above powders will, with a tuned load.

Of course, all these powers are temp insensitive like 8208 ballpark. If you dont care about temp sensitive, then you open yourself up to a lot of powders and the best one is:

Accurate 2520 probably. But Accurate 2460 is the one closest to 8208 in load data of the ball powders. Winchester 748 is good option too.

I hope this helps.

 

[Shoots 700's]

Check out this series. There’s 3-4 he likes, one of which is Alliant Power Pro Varmint But it hasn’t been in stock anywhere for the past year. maybe 2520 Or Tac?

This guy can't shoot for crap

 

[supercorndogs]

Replacing 8208 you basically have ~4 options that put you "close" to it, but there is no powder with "same" load data, its either slightly faster or slow.
Slower first
N140 without question can replace 8208. You will need about ~0.7 grains more w/77 grain to equal FPS. This is best choice because it will be similar pressure to 8208 producing similar velocity and is the ONLY one on this list, like this.
Faster now:
N135 can replace and is good choice. You will need about ~0.2 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS (this will be higher pressure than 8208)
H4895 can replace 8208 and is probably closest in load data. You will need about ~0.1-0.2 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS (this will be higher pressure than 8208)
AR Comp is reasonable to replace it with. You will need about ~.07 grains LESS w/77 grain to equal FPS.

Benchmark is not great over max SAAMI loads, so rule that out. It basically has same load data as N135 or H4895, or VERY close.

Varget and Precision Rifle, I would not pick to replace 8208. No way. They are not going to give you similar velocity without being way over pressure, and also, they have too much case fill, and are poor choices, if you want ~2750 FPS w/77 grain bullet. Do not buy these. StabALL Match will need around 25.2 grains to match 8208 at around 23.3 grains or so. Ballpark. YOu will be disappointed with StaBALL Match, is I do not believe it will give you the accuracy 8208 or the above powders will, with a tuned load.

Of course, all these powers are temp insensitive like 8208 ballpark. If you dont care about temp sensitive, then you open yourself up to a lot of powders and the best one is:

Accurate 2520 probably. But Accurate 2460 is the one closest to 8208 in load data of the ball powders. Winchester 748 is good option too.

I hope this helps.

My Varget load is faster than my 8208 load. Which prompted me to check some land data.

Checked Hodgdon, you are dead wrong about Varget and 8208.

Hodgdon

Varget

BUY NOW

0.224"

2.250"

22.5

2,693

40,600 CUP

25.0C

2,907

48,400 CUP

IMR

IMR 8208 XBR

OUT OF STOCK

0.224"

2.250"

20.0

2,538

40,800 PSI

22.7

2,804

53,900 PSI

Benchmark works pretty well with heavy 223 bullets as does 4895.

You don't believe staball match will make accurate of loads. Why?

 

[rweaver00geo]

Just a velocity comparison using the 75 hpbt out of an 18"
AA2520 23.2g = 2746
8208 23.2g = 2680
Benchmark 21.5g =2608
Varget 23.2g = 2593

 

[semperfireloading]

My Varget load is faster than my 8208 load. Which prompted me to check some land data.

Checked Hodgdon, you are dead wrong about Varget and 8208.

Hodgdon

Varget

BUY NOW

0.224"

2.250"

22.5

2,693

40,600 CUP

25.0C

2,907

48,400 CUP

IMR

IMR 8208 XBR

OUT OF STOCK

0.224"

2.250"

20.0

2,538

40,800 PSI

22.7

2,804

53,900 PSI

Benchmark works pretty well with heavy 223 bullets as does 4895.

You don't believe staball match will make accurate of loads. Why?

Its totally clear, from real data, through 10+ barrels, that XBR produces more velocity at max SAAMI, than does Varget. This is without question. Varget is a "below average" choice for heavy bullets going for 2750 FPS in 20" barrel, to match NATO pressures. I should not have said poor, its not poor. Its just not nearly as good as other powders, such as N140. There is no question about this.

According to the reloading data, XBR is about ~60 FPS faster, at the SAME pressure, than Varget.
Hodgdon agrees with me because their load data supports what I am saying as does real world testing

XBR is a superior powder to Varget for velocity. Accuracy, its debatable between the two, both are nuts accurate.

I have tested StaBALL Match many, many times, and there is no way, no chance, in a AR15, that its even on the same planet in accuracy to N140, or a dozen other powers. No way. As far as ball powders, I think its good overall, but AA2520 beats it like a drum, and I would take some other ball over it as well. StaBALL match is way overpriced. Who the hell is going to pay $330 + shipping for 8 lbs when you can buy 8 lbs of N140 for $60 less? that is crazy. Not good value, can't produce the same velocity as N140, and nowhere near as accurate. And its super pricey. Its no chance.

 

[MJF]

Thanks for the info. I'll try and cancel my order tomorrow.

 

[MK20]

Its totally clear, from real data, through 10+ barrels, that XBR produces more velocity at max SAAMI, than does Varget. This is without question. Varget is a "below average" choice for heavy bullets going for 2750 FPS in 20" barrel, to match NATO pressures. I should not have said poor, its not poor. Its just not nearly as good as other powders, such as N140. There is no question about this.

According to the reloading data, XBR is about ~60 FPS faster, at the SAME pressure, than Varget.
Hodgdon agrees with me because their load data supports what I am saying as does real world testing

XBR is a superior powder to Varget for velocity. Accuracy, its debatable between the two, both are nuts accurate.

I have tested StaBALL Match many, many times, and there is no way, no chance, in a AR15, that its even on the same planet in accuracy to N140, or a dozen other powers. No way. As far as ball powders, I think its good overall, but AA2520 beats it like a drum, and I would take some other ball over it as well. StaBALL match is way overpriced. Who the hell is going to pay $330 + shipping for 8 lbs when you can buy 8 lbs of N140 for $60 less? that is crazy. Not good value, can't produce the same velocity as N140, and nowhere near as accurate. And its super pricey. Its no chance.

Have you tested N140 temp stability?

 

[MK20]

Because N140 is supposed to be sensitive as hell.

 

[semperfireloading]

N140 is not temp sensitive at all. Temp Sensitive powders, are around 1.0+ FPS PER DEGREE. N140 is .~.4FPS per degree. So that places N140 as low temp sensitivity. XBR8208 is similar, but more sensitive, marginally. Different people have tested this.

What is interesting, is AA2520, for a ball powder, is not that temp sensitive at all.
Somebodies temp stability chart

So lets make summary.
StaBALL match:

Not good value, hugely expensive. Its same price as N540!​

Not nearly as accurate as many other powders widely used​

Not that high energy/velocity​

Excellent case fill though, you can shove a lot in the case with 77 grain bullets and not compress much at all.​

​

StaBALL match, from testing it in various conditions, I believe to be like Varget in how temp stable it is, probably UNDER .4 FPS/degree.​

​

​

Just like AA2520, with 77 g rain SMK or CC or whatever, it will like it well beyond SAAMI, at around 25.2 grains. (2.250-2.260 OAL). Max load book is 24.0 I think. So your going to have to dial it up to get most performance out of it. And even way over pressure, it cannot match N140 at UNDER SAAMI pressure and gets demolished by N540.​

​

You see why this is not a great powder?​

​

​

 

[MK20]

Hmm, good to know. All the research I did on N140 said that it was very sensitive.

All I know is that Match at max SAAMI load in my 18 inch gave me 2820 fps with a 75gr Hornady.

I like it.

 

[supercorndogs]

Its totally clear, from real data, through 10+ barrels, that XBR produces more velocity at max SAAMI, than does Varget. This is without question. Varget is a "below average" choice for heavy bullets going for 2750 FPS in 20" barrel, to match NATO pressures. I should not have said poor, its not poor. Its just not nearly as good as other powders, such as N140. There is no question about this.

According to the reloading data, XBR is about ~60 FPS faster, at the SAME pressure, than Varget.
Hodgdon agrees with me because their load data supports what I am saying as does real world testing

XBR is a superior powder to Varget for velocity. Accuracy, its debatable between the two, both are nuts accurate.

I have tested StaBALL Match many, many times, and there is no way, no chance, in a AR15, that its even on the same planet in accuracy to N140, or a dozen other powers. No way. As far as ball powders, I think its good overall, but AA2520 beats it like a drum, and I would take some other ball over it as well. StaBALL match is way overpriced. Who the hell is going to pay $330 + shipping for 8 lbs when you can buy 8 lbs of N140 for $60 less? that is crazy. Not good value, can't produce the same velocity as N140, and nowhere near as accurate. And its super pricey. Its no chance.

The reloading data I see says varget is faster by 100fps @ 55.6kpsi vs 54.9kpsi with 8208. And you are saying 8208 makes up more than that 100fps with another 1700psi?

My own personal experience says I can get more velocity with Varget than 8208, without wrecking brass. The main reason I use 8208 is because it meters well.

Could you supply us with your pressure testing and velocity data?

 

[semperfireloading]

ok Fellas, tell you what. Just for you guys, I will put up a quad test, using all same elements except the powder.
I will go ahead and do VARGET VS XBR VS StaBALL match vs N140.

Lets just use 77 SMK loaded to like 2.255. Lets first agree to max load data ballpark, so we can understand whats going on.
Here is what my data says using 77 SMK 55k PSI ballbark. These are max loads, depending on brass will put you in 55k psi, etc
Varget: 23.7 & NATO 25.1
XBR: 23.2 & NATO ...no need.....no need at all.
StaBALL Match: 24.0 & NATO 25.4
N140: 24.7 vs NATO 25.5 (not sure I can get this much in case with bullet, well see), won't need more than 24.5 actually, and that will be ridiculous velocity.

Hodgdons reloading center supports what I am saying. Varget is lowest velocity option for 77 SMK among these powders. Hodgdon's data is not wrong.

I was surprised, I didn't have evaluation of Varget on my site. I will just add that at same time.

my website is NatoReloading I test powders, for years and years, "every" powder I can buy and many you cant.

 

[ma smith]

The reloading data I see says ...

Take a look at this data from Nosler and note the * load (max accuracy) for N140 (≈ 2,530fps) and Varget (≈ 2,450 fps)..XBR is much closer in speed to H4895 and performs similar in the sense that its a faster powder appears to be at peak or maintain its accuracy around its max book load around ≈ 2,700 fps.

https://www.nosler.com/media/load_data_assets/pdfs/223-Rem-77gr-version-9-0.pdf

 

[semperfireloading]

that data is hard to replicate. my test will prove its hard. uttery

 

[rweaver00geo]

dam n140 is temp sensitive?, i just bought some, the first Vihtavuori powder Ive ever purchased. Im crying over here.

 

[morning would]

Lol….I use 24.6 with n140. It is the exact same charge weight that Gavin gear used to duplicate the Berger 77gr OTM load. I have been over 25 with no pressure signs at all. 23.5 is laughable. But, Nosler is almost always waaaaaaayyyyy safe. Of course, you should be trying to stay safe as well when you are working up.

 

[semperfireloading]

I duplicated the Berger load using 24.1 grains of N140, and when I took apart the Berger load, it looked like N140, but nobody can be 100% sure. Berger must have used various different loads and powders because its highly variable what people are seeing. I did a test on the site, got same near exact result with 24.1 using all same components. Its red flag when it says N540 24.5 grains is LOWER velocity than N140 using 23.5. That is a joke. Just goes to show. Reloading data is not good standard, testing it yourself, is best. If you want to see even harder data to replicate, check out BERGER's. Let me get my Berger book real quick..lets see...
77 Grain OTM, Berger bullet which is basically a ~15k or so longer SMK:
24" barrel used

Max LOADs:
Varget 22.5 = 2746 FPS
XBR 21.8 = 2773 FPS
N140 22.4 = 2761 FPS
2250 23.0 = 2796 FPS
N540 23 = 2773 FPS

I should be ded by now, because this ENTIRE TIME, I been loading 2 ENTIRE GRAINS across the board more than Berger's MAX loads using their 77 OTM, which is my favorite bullet. Interesting here, AGAIN, Varget is the LOWEST FPS test by Berger at what they say is 55k PSI.

the conditions for that test, are unknown.

 

[supercorndogs]

Your max loads are based on what?

 

[semperfireloading]

the powder manufacturer specifications/data. Directly off the manufacturer of that powder's site. So off Hodgdon's site, and off VV site directly. You will notice HUGE discrepancies between the actual powder manufacturer and component manufacturers, like Nosler, Hornady, etc. Look at Hornady data too, that is a laugh. Its so conservative its insane.

 

[supercorndogs]

You keep talking about their data being off, but not providing your own pressure testing vs velocity testing and methodology, that proves them wrong. They aren't scrutinizing flat primers and squinting for ejector marks at these places.

 

[semperfireloading]

did you visit my web site? on my site? I probably have 5,000+ velocity numbers from various tests.

pressure testing is a total waste of time for you and me. You and I do not care if we are at 51k PSI or 57k PSI, because we would judge what is good or bad based on brass quality after shooting it.... If we are a manufacturer, we have to do pressure testing so we can meet the SAAMI standard. then people like you and me see this data, and then we start messing around below this, and work up until we are happy and meet some goal we have. Knowing what pressure we ended at is utterly meaningless, because we would not settle on some load that blows primers, chews up brass, or "1 and done" brass, etc etc etc. We would settle below that. This is common sense and what many people do.

So yes, that data is hard to replicate. Lets point out whats not accurate, right off the bat: (probable, not fact)
N140 max is 24.7, not 23.5
N540 at 24.5 is NOT lower velocity than 23.5 N140. Not even close. That is totally questionable. We are talking 100 FPS+ probably difference.
H4895 maximum is well under 23 grains. but that says 23.5. Try it? Go load that. Shoot it. You will stamp the brass BADLY and you will be near 2750 FPS with 20" barrel, because 23.5 is a super hot load as its way over maximum. Shot it many, many times.

I have all these rounds loaded up. I will post results soon. Then we can both see the truth..

 

[MK20]

Why do you love Vhitavouri so much and dislike Winchester powder so much? You seem to have quite the ax to grind here.

 

[semperfireloading]

you mean StaBALL? its objectively NOT a top tier powder. I laid out the reasons. You tell me. As a consumer, why would you buy StaBALL over VV N140? which is way cheaper and objectively superior in velocity and accuracy. I prefer W748, which I like a lot, and you can see on my site, I listed W748 as one of the best powders for 223. I shot one of the most ridiculous groups in my life with W748, at 200 yards. .76" at 200 yards? Using Berger 77 OTM. That is ridiculous accuracy for a 8 LB AR15, including scope just using a wooden rest, not even bipod.

Benchmark is my favorite powder for 223 "overall".

 

[supercorndogs]

did you visit my web site? on my site? I probably have 5,000+ velocity numbers from various tests. With "exact" method. I don't think you seen it, or I don't think you would ask me this. I have a TON of primer picks, and denote ejector marks, and on and on and on.

pressure testing is a total waste of time for you and me. You and I do not care if we are at 51k PSI or 57k PSI, because we would judge what is good or bad based on brass quality after shooting it.... If we are a manufacturer, we have to do pressure testing so we can meet the SAAMI standard. then people like you and me see this data, and then we start messing around below this, and work up until we are happy and meet some goal we have. Knowing what pressure we ended at is utterly meaningless, because we would not settle on some load that blows primers, chews up brass, or "1 and done" brass, etc etc etc. We would settle below that. This is common sense and what many people do.

So yes, that data is bad. Lets point out whats not accurate, right off the bat:
N140 max is 24.7, not 23.5
N540 at 24.5 is NOT lower velocity than 23.5 N140. Not even close. That is totally wrong. We are talking 100 FPS+ probably difference.
H4895 maximum is well under 23 grains. but that says 23.5. Try it? Go load that. Shoot it. You will stamp the brass BADLY and you will be near 2750 FPS with 20" barrel, because 23.5 is a super hot load as its way over maximum. Shot it many, many times.

I have all these rounds loaded up. I will post results soon. Then we can both see the truth..

If you don't have pressure testing equipment you are taking guess how much pressure you are making.

Different components and different types of testing equipment yield different results. All brass is not the same all primers are not the same all recivers chambers and throats are not the same. All chronos are not the same.

A lot of people run well over max pressure and blame the books for being conservative and brass for being weak.

I do care if I am at 59k PSI or 69k PSI.

 

[DairyDictator]

you mean StaBALL? its objectively NOT a top tier powder. I laid out the reasons. You tell me. As a consumer, why would you buy StaBALL over VV N140? which is way cheaper and objectively superior in velocity and accuracy. I prefer W748, which I like a lot, and you can see on my site, I listed W748 as one of the best powders for 223. I shot one of the most ridiculous groups in my life with W748, at 200 yards. .76" at 200 yards? Using Berger 77 OTM. That is ridiculous accuracy for a 8 LB AR15, including scope just using a wooden rest, not even bipod.

Benchmark is my favorite powder for 223 "overall".

Where exactly are you finding N140 "way" cheaper than Staball? Everywhere I see it's in the $320 - $360 range which is right there with staball.